Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: mrfish on November 25, 2001, 07:26:00 PM
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make sure they have a 6-8 hour delay every time they fly!
one stinking metal detector was unplugged in seattle and some of those unscreened people went on to oakland. because of this they evacuated the entire oakland airport, thousands of people and made everyone go back thru the screening.
they are watching these families go back thru the screening they have to know they arent terrorists - come on - they are sitting there pretending like 'it could be anyone'. it isnt - they are neutered and long gone i say.
what happened on sep 11th was a fluke. i seriously doubt they even have any operatives left and if they did that old trick will never work again anyway. they were really 'lucky' to get away with it and actually cause so much damage.
we are way over-estimating these half assed terrorists and they have us quivering. on top of that we cant get our sh&t together enough to plug in the damn metal detector. werent they clued in when it didnt go off for an hour? those things always go off.
ridiculous - im not flying anywhere til they get it together. the last thing i am worried about is stupid terrorists - they got nothing left, they are done for, all they had was box cutters in the first place that will never work again...its the incompetence and overreaction that will keep me away.
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I think the "security" people who monkeyed (not deserving of "manned") that detector should be fired, as in shot at and killed. How stupid are they? I bet they cant even read.
What amazinhunks, I hope they get punished severly, then deported.
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Now that the security people are Federal employees, just try and fire one!! If it happens let me know. I will demand evidence that it really happened!!
You must understand that Federal employee equals professional,ya, right heheeeeeeeee :)
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As retarded as the debacle in Seattle/Okland was, I wouldn't call these terrorists "half-assed".
Half-assed terrorists don't kill 5000+ people. Half-assed terrorists deface property and butcher someone's pet dog and beat up helpless elderly people. Half-assed terrorists don't take flying lessons, don't willingly blow themselves up, and don't have worldwide organization.
5000+ people. Real people, real lives. Not just some meaningless number. That's Pearl harbor times 2, and done against civilians!
That simply doesn't qualify as "half-assed" in my book.
J_A_B
[ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: J_A_B ]
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oh brother...wondered who'd be the first to go for the sentimental angle....throwing the 5000 lives around doesnt prove they are any good as an organization. all it does is make a needlessly dramatic statement.
all their success proves is that they took a cheap shot and got away with it. they wouldnt have even got that many if the bldgs hadnt collapsed. talk about tragic breaks for us and incredible luck for them! its not like they knew the bldgs would collapse. they got really lucky, the damage shouldnt have been anywhere NEAR as bad as it was.
everyone thinks hijackings will go fine as long as they cooperate. this one didnt. that trick works once and ONLY once. they werent some uber commandos - anyone with 2 days on msfs2000 could have pulled off that trick.
i wouldnt give too much credit to the terrorists -
they couldnt do it again. their country is getting decimated. they couldnt even do anything comparable - they arent organized enough or ingenious enough. what else do they have? nothing, thats what. one trick one jab and thats it.
what else have they done? some truck bombs some boat bomb? hell if we'd been awake we could have easily stopped those too. we might have even been able to stop more useless death but i guess the body count has to reach a certain point before we get serious.
i for one am not going to sit around quivering about them. im getting a little sick of the extra measures on people who obviously arent terrorists.
i see some family from the midwest with some kids getting shook down and think man what a waste of their day. if anything the terrorists are winning by irritating us to death.
they got one good shot at us but thats all they got they cant even defend themselves at their own homes.
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i think most all americans would rather be safe then sorry.
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While I do like the idea of extra security, I also think we need to be smart about it. I can appreciate what mrfish is saying. Everyday I drive onto a military installation in a military uniform with a military registration sticker on my car, looking Caucasian as hell, and about 25% of the time I get my car gets thoroughly searched. Some common sense needs to prevail. I think alot of it has to do with the "racial profiling" phobia. No one wants to be accused of singling out Arabic people for searches. I think thats a bunch of crap...but I'm not in charge :)
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Originally posted by moose:
i think most all americans would rather be safe then sorry.
One day we'll all be completely safe.
We just won't be free anymore.
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"i for one am not going to sit around quivering about them. "
Neither am I. But I'm also not going to believe delusions suggesting that these guys are "half-assed".
You need to remember that these guys aren't your average "let's spray paint swastikas on the side of a church then beat up some little kid" terrorists. There are people who've dedicated their lives to killing each and every last one of us. They search out and find what we're not protecting, then do as much damage as they can. Calling them "half-assed" is silly.
Yeah, bombing the WTC in 1993 was "half-assed".
Bombing two different U.S. embassies on the same day was "half-assed".
Almost sinking a USN destroyer was "half-assed".
Destroying a pair of skyscrapers in downtown New York was "half-assed".
Anthrax mailings are "half-assed".
If all that is indeed "half-assed", then what constitutes "serious" terrorism?
Unless you treat them as a threat, it WILL happen again. To maintain the shock value, be sure they will make it more spectacular too (read: more lethal).
J_A_B
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SOB: I'll take Mr. Fish for 100, Alex.
Alex: <reads above posts by El Fishy>
SOB: What happens when Mr. Fish's dealer is out of town and he sees something retarded on the news?
Alex: Correct! Select again.
SOB: I'll take The Penis Mightier for 200!
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half assed as in not complicated or unstoppable. half assed as in stringing together cheap and uncomplicated attacks. half assed as in we ought to be able to stop this at the intelligence level. our lapses have helped them more than thier proficiency.
anyone with 'bomb fixins' can walk up to an embassy and blow themselves to bits.
its not complicated to hijack a plane and crash it just walk up to someone with your box cutter - give them your demands and crash the plane before they realize whats up.
blow up a boat? strap bomb to body - get in boat - drive boat to ship - watch soldier leaning on 50cal and watching you without firing...press button
they arent hiding under our beds they just had some suicidal maniacs and used them thats not very complicated. and ps the anthrax hasnt been proven to be linked to this so lets exclude it.
ill give them a bit more credit for complexity if it is them but still at that theyve only got a few people.... they could have dumped it in a crowded subway or a football game and got many people instead of going for the political statement. not very adept.
the times theyve gotten over on us could have been easily stopped with better intelligence and foresight as well as doing more than launching a few meaningless cruise missiles at em.
i think we are waaaay too impressed at how they coordinate things - i keep hearing that: "oh but their coordination oohhh ahhh that coordination had to take years of rocket scientists calculating on cray computers...ohhh ahhh"
my lord man! how hard is it to read a friggin route schedule or say 'hey blow yourself up at 4 oclock and i will too'?! if that impresses you then you were maybe bad at word probs ;)
all i'm saying is that they are only powerful when we arent paying attention - there's no need to shake down 10,000 people just trying to get to grandmas house everytime some dolt who couldnt get a real job gets scared at his metal detector.
are the terrorists goig to be at the airport with guns? no they wouldnt even try it'd be a waste of resources because theyd likely get caught, they wouldnt try the boxcutter thing again because they know itd only work once - they arent going to hijack anything. why?
because they're too half assed thats why.
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lol sob!!! you know me too well - i'll give it up, i just think we are overreacting and i dont want to make these guys(terrorists) more than what they are which is lucky one- time mosquitos that are shoulda quit buzzin a long time ago when they had the chance.
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As much as I hate to return this thread to its original topic, I think Fish has a point.
The airlines are screwing up by the numbers.
Yes, total traffic is down.
Security, with attendant ID checks, baggage checks and changes, scanning changes, etc., etc., etc. has made the process of getting your ticket and checking you bags MUCH more labor intensive on the airline side of the equation.
The brilliant response of the Harvard biz school grads is to CUT the number of people by 20-25% that actually do the work of checking you in, checking your bags and getting the flight out of the gate.
The result is that now at a large "hub" airport you get to the airport at least 2 hours before your flight (maybe even 3), expect to be delayed, because the new system is delaying almost everything, finally get airborne, fly to the destination and then wait one hour to get your bag because the cut ramp personnel 20% as well.
So who the heck wants to spend all bloody day trying to get somewhere by air?
It's getting more and more attractive to DRIVE to any destination that can be reached in the 5-7 hour range.
That's a direct hit right in the highly profitable "regional jet" breadbasket. The whiz kids ordered hundreds of those... and now they're driving folks away from the RJ's main market.
Additionally, medium-haul standard jet traffic is taking a hit as well.
What needs to be done is to streamline the process as much as possible and USE ENOUGH EMPLOYEES TO KEEP THE LINES SHORT!
As for unplugging the metal detector.. I can see the new "terrorists" now.
"Akeem, your job is to carefully trip over the power cord and unplug it without them noticing. We have 25 trained commandos who will do the same thing around the country at 12 noon sharp! If they catch you, apologize and go on your way."
Shut down the whole system instantly. It'd take them 2 days to get everything back on track.
This is the kind of stuff they better get off their dead rear ends and fix before there IS no airline industry.
Me, I'm going to open a bar.. and the video games are gonna be those WW2 fighter cock
pit mockups running AH. :)
I think I WILL call it the "Auger Inn".
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One thing that suprised me greatly was that my own style of airline travel didn't seem to be affected at all. Aside from my original itinerary being eliminated and me being booked on a different flights, it all went smoothly.
As usual, all I took was a single carry on and I checked in at the gate instead of the ticket counter. Was I just lucky?
SOB
PS...I agree Fishy, at some point it just gets rediculous!
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To the "better safe then sorry proponents":
Fish is not talking about discarding the safety measures. He is talking about the safety measures actually increasing our feeling of unsafety.
Where do you feel safer? In a competently-run quiet by-the-book operation where everything is happening according to schedule?
Or in a mad rush of changing plans, people running around, things changing by the minute and delayed by hours?
No one would get nervous if he knows in advance that the new security measures take 3 hours or 5 hours and include the full body+cavity search - as long as it is planned, occures in time and the plane leaves on schedule.
It is the freaking new things every day and the huge delays and knee-jerk reactions that make passengers doubt the airline competence. For G-d's sake, they are the one establishing the schedules - do not schedule so many flights if you cannot service them.
People who waited for extra 8 hours will rightfully doubt everything else the airline does - including flying and maintaining the planes.
Anyone who ever flew to Israel knows that El-Al and other airlines had comprehencive security routine working flawlessly for years - without complications.
As for half-assed terrorists, they did not need to be any better because our own anti-terrorist efforts can hardly be called even half-assed.
Terrorists killed only few people directly - a few hundreds at most. As Fish said, the building collapse and our loss was an accident and incompetence of our emergency services (who should have known what the result of the fire would have been).
The economical loss we cause ourself now is greater then the one caused by terrorists directly, so the gross incompetence and overreaction mrFish is referring to can be rightfully called contunuation of the terrorists efforts.
miko
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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Uhmmm, our emergency guys got 25,000 or more people out of the buildings... The fact that now it seems only about 3000 building employess actually died out of nearly 30,000 is quite an accomplishment considering it took many people and pretty much everyone over half way up more than an hour to get down the stairs.
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As for El Al well pretty much every big US airline does more business in a day or two, their secrity procedures are unrealistic for USA and reall everywhere else with lots of trafic.
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..the building collapse and our loss was an accident and incompetence of our emergency services (who should have known what the result of the fire would have been).
Miko, the guys that ran INTO those burning buildings might have more than a few words for you regarding 'incompetence'.
The BUILDERS and DESIGNERS of those buildings were absolutely stunned by their collapse. Not a single rescue crew considered the buildings themselves would collapse.
I don't think any city anywhere in the world was prepared or had in place medical and emergency service plans for an attack of this magnitude... except NYC. The fact that about 20 thousand folks AT Ground Zero SURVIVED speaks volumes about how good a job these guys did.
Mayhaps you wish to re-phrase your comment?
Nationaly speaking.. the nation had just as much terrorist protection as it was willing to pay for on sept 10th. On sept 11th, the nation demanded more. NOW.
The nation is ill prepared to turn its several thousand airports into secure zones via dependency on the airlines or private firms hired by the airlines. I for one am glad the Feds are on this task... It would seem to me that consistency is paramount to acheiving good security; and the only entity that exists nationaly (or will exist) in a position to acheive it is the government.
So, lets let Governer Tommy Boy get this homeland security department thingie set up.. who knows; maybe it'll work.
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I flet to the con
had no problems with lines at all. I arrived an hour early for my flight and got through security without a hitch, even with my carry on being my PC
only issue was with southwest when the flight attendant was a squeak to me.
i don't see too much of a difference in security measures now. they're just paying more attention then they used to.
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Uh, the screeners did their job on the 9-11 hijackers. If you are pissed, direct that anger to the INS.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Uhmmm, our emergency guys got 25,000 or more people out of the buildings... The fact that now it seems only about 3000 building employess actually died out of nearly 30,000 is quite an accomplishment...
Sure, no problem with the firefighters/policemen that were actually rescuing people. I am talking about the people in charge of emergency planning.
They should have had a file - computerised or otherwise that would say "In case of an office fire the building would fall down in 3 hours. Please call Mr. Architect for more details."
After that they should have called Mr Architect and asked "How does the presence of 40 tonnes of aviation fuel and undetermined damage due to the plane hit affects maximum time before the building falls down?"
And Mr Architect would say "Holy S@#t! Get everyone out immediately from that building and the surrounding area!"
At least that was what a real architect said after the fact. One could argue that it is much more clear after the fact, but the behaviour of buildings and materials in case of fire is one of the most studied and regulated areas of construction - with specific time limits associated with it.
No policemen or firefighters should have been sent in.
Helicopters could have been sent up with posters "Everyone get out" - to display to the people thrugh the windows.
There probably was not possible to resque people with helicopters due to the fire, but there was not even attempt of that.
A lot of people died under the buildings that had no business being there - because noone expected the buildings to crumble at all, let alone so soon.
I talked to firefighter and he told me that since my house has steel support beams, in case of fire no firefighter will attempt to come in and control the fire (unless to resque someone) and let the house burn down - because the steal beams tend to weaken from heat and can cause the floor collapse unexpectedly - while wood holds it's structural properties untill it burns through.
So they are well aware of those strctural details and probably have all the plans on file for all the buildings. How come they did not use that information in this case is strange to me.
And it is not a case where US was first faced with terrorism, forget terrorism - I am talking about regular preparedness for the fire that should have been planned, tested and drilled.
P.S. I had friends and relatives working in the buildings right next to the WTC. Some of them were told to stay inside and not come out and then they were told to get out (through the front exit facing the twins) right before the tower building collapsed.
Few minutes eitehr way and more people coud have been dead.
miko
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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Hey, Miko, are you smoking crack or what?
Please, Sir Genius, give me a list of all the possible things that could possibly happen so that I can be ready.
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Hangtime my dad is computer expert/ mathematican who made various engineereing math programs and actually did the math work on several civil engineering construction jobs like bridges in his twenties.
When he saw the towers burning that morning he immediatly said they would fall very quickly.
I cant belive the builders of WTC didnt notice the same. Its simply a matter of temperature and weight on the steel, they would fail.
Anyway its amazing that so many got.
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BTW Miko is mostly right about things here regarding the buildings falling. He is also right about the steel frame building on fire scenario. Belive it or not properly treated wood is the most fire resistant structural material in common use today.
I agree with him that no firefighters should have been sent in and that the whole are should have been cleared. SHOULD have been as in perfect hindsight but its still true.
But I guess they wanthed to help.
My father who hasnt worked in enginnereng for most of the last 20 years said immediatly that WTC would fall when se saw the fires, Im shocked engineers on site with knowlege of WTC did not.
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Well, be glad that the Architect designed it the way he did. The exoskeleton of steel I-beam columns kept it from toppling; that would have killed tens of thousands.
Miko, I am not trying to insult you, of all the guys here I respect your opinion above all. But there is no way to anticipate every possible action, and dispicable ones are even harder to visualize and plan for.
They did a remarkable job in getting the civvies out, though it was a hard call until the second plane hit. The heroic duties of the Police and Firemen require them to enter harms way, even when the most prudent action would be to clear the area. Thank God for them and the tough job they do.
If you want to discuss the theory of skyscraper design limits, that is a different issue and sounds like a good conversation.
edit for spelling
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Gadfly ]
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Greetings...
Just a quick correction:
Belive it or not properly treated wood is the most fire resistant structural material in common use today
Maximum fire rating for walls of wood construction is 2hrs. Steel reinforced concrete or masonry will provide ratings of up to 4hrs.
F.
Additionally, exposed structural steel in the vast majority of buildings not for use as single-family residences or storage is required to be protected by some fire-resistive material such as gypsum, ablative paint, etc.
[ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Furious ]
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I've flown 4 times since the attacks and I can't say I've encountered any problems. Check-in went smoothly. Only delay was 5-10 minutes in line waiting for metal detector / x-ray. *Shrugs*
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Sadly, even if the Port Authority Engineers got the word out after the fact, the Police and Fire teams would have been trying to get to the folks on the floors affected by the impact.
Can you IMAGINE the publics reaction had they refused to go in?
When I was a young man in a bad land far from home I had an elder tell me to do things that would certainly make me a prime candidate for a dirt nap. I did 'em tho, and so did every single one of the guys I was with. Every one. Without exception. Repeatedly. I guess it's how we were wired, to NOT be seen doing our duty was even sacrier than doing the job.
Even now, with all folks now understanding clearly that a building slapped with a jumbo jet has a finite life span, the emergency crews would go in.
The tape I saw after the fact, an interview with senior Port Authority engineers, was pretty explicit in its explanation.. "In our experience, it simply has never happened before. We had a bomber hit the Empire State Building in 1944, complete with fire; the structure did not collapse. We've dealt with many many high-rise fires, the buildings did not collapse... we did not expect the towers to come down."
After the fact... well; if everybodys hindsight is so much better than their foresight then why ain't we alll walkin around bent over backwards lookin out the big brown eye?
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Furious, fire ratings for walls are for burn-through, not specifically structural integrity. A fire rated column, on the other hand, is rated for structural failure.
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I've noticed that it pays not to wear a belt when flying out of O'hare, no matter how small the buckle.
Also, I hear they are installing metal detectors at Sears Towers here in Chicago. My biggest fear has always been that someone would smuggle a box cutter into the Tower to hijack it and send it crashing into the John Hancock building :)
Charon
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I fly for business about 2 times a week throughout the country. I have noticed several changes in the system. Every airport no matter the size has different procedures. What you can take through one airport you get hassled at the next on for carrying. I have to take hadcuffs with me for my job, and sometimes I get the real riot act from some guys who has no command of the english language, San Francisco being the worst. If all airports could come up with one set of rules and implement them, then you would not have the logjam you have now. I flew out of O'Hare yesterday, and they did everything but squeeze out your toothpaste at the security checkpoint. Twenty minute delay right there. Ohh and just one little tidbit for you guys and ill be on my way. Buy a one way ticket or buy your ticket the day before you travel and you automatically get the additional search at the gate. FYI.
FIla