Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on June 10, 2005, 08:26:18 PM
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Anyone watching this?
TNT (http://alt.tnt.tv/itw/#)
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I recorded it while I was at work. Just started watching episode 1 now. I have high hopes since it's a Spielberg production. We'll see.
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Originally posted by rpm
I recorded it while I was at work. Just started watching episode 1 now. I have high hopes since it's a Spielberg production. We'll see.
Its no too bad.
The scenery alone makes it watchable.
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does it show how the evil white man slaughtered all the peace loveing red hippies?
lazs
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Good show. Been looking forward to seeing it. so far Im not dissapointed
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Originally posted by lazs2
does it show how the evil white man slaughtered all the peace loveing red hippies?
lazs
Heh. come and try to take my land from me and I'd have become a peace loving red hippie too just like them.
And the White man did slaugheter em.
in more ways then one.
Including intentionally selling them blankets contaminated with the Small Pox Virus (germ warfare)
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I thought the first espisode was average.
Including intentionally selling them blankets contaminated with the Small Pox Virus (germ warfare)
I've seen this statement many times. I've never seen any documentation of that however, other than the British General Amherst suggesting it in a letter in 1763 and one of his Colonels reporting that he did so.
"There is no evidence that Col. Bouquet took any action on Amherst's letter, but there is evidence that Captain Ecuyer at Fort Pitt did."
Have you any other examples?
[edit - spelling]
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taking their land away? You are aware that those peace loving hippies were slaughtering each other over land before we got there?
You are also aware that indians for the most part had no concept of land ownership and the person who could take it owned it.... we played by their rules.
you do know that the tribes that did claim ownership were most often bartered out of their land and that either they, or another tribe would not recognize the agreement. We played their rules...
For the most part... they were murdering, torturing savages who were their own worst enemies... they destroyed any land they stayed on and when it got to barren or hunted out they moved to the next patch... only their barbaric medical practices, tribal warfare and infant mortality kept them from killing the entire continent.
lazs
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I went to high school with Irene Bedard:
(http://www.nativecelebs.com/gallery/albums/intothewest/Irene_bedard.jpg)
She was also the voice and image basis for the animated film Pocahontas.
eskimo
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Originally posted by lazs2
does it show how the evil white man slaughtered all the peace loveing red hippies?
lazs
damm , lazs, you beat me to it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
You are also aware that indians for the most part had no concept of land ownership and the person who could take it owned it.... we played by their rules.
lazs
And YOU should be aware that now the Indians are playing by OUR Rules, and making major bank in Indian casinos. But I won't cry over the way the Indians were treated historically if you don't cry because they've negotiated a degree of soventry that allows them economic freedom.
:aok
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nope... no crying here.. If they make or lose a deal it is on them.. It is fortunate that they let the mafia run their casinos tho but...
like the settling of the west... they won't keep their tax free status much longer... just don't cry when they lose it.
lazs
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the big fish eats the smaller fish...so fourth and so on.
Get over it.
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Damn. Laz sounds like he lived/living in the 1840's
And are YOU aware the the indian tribes never broke a treaty?
thats right every treaty broken was broken by the white man
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the only thing an Iroquois is good for, when it's time to frame up a constitution.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I went to high school with Irene Bedard:
(http://www.nativecelebs.com/gallery/albums/intothewest/Irene_bedard.jpg)
She was also the voice and image basis for the animated film Pocahontas.
eskimo
Russell Means has a part in this series also.
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So Lazs,
When you look at this time in history, how do you feel about the Native Americans? Do you think that they were pretty much all the same; or did some tribes behave in a more civilized manor? Would you say that you feel contempt for them? Do you admire them in anyway? If so, for what? Do you think that the United States and its citizens treated them appropriately? Or do you see a mix of appropriate and in appropriate treatment?
eskimo
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eskimo... I see that there were a lot of differences between the tribes. there were also a lot of similarities in their civilization and progress. their archetecture, medicine, tools, clothing and warcraft were all about the same from tribe to tribe. This means that their progress, or lack thereof was about the same even tho many tribes were thousands of miles away from each other.
Admire? I don't know.. they were good at woodscraft but then... that was pretty much their entire universe. Little tough on the women anmd kids though and... It leaves you open to getting your butt kicked. I don't know... little things I am sure... tell you what.... name a few and I will tell you if I admire that or not... overall tho.. no...
I don't think that we treated them any worse than they treated each other or us... we just did it a thousand times more efficiently. Indians were in Mexico and Canada too.. They ain't moving around like gypsies in tents in those countries either. I would say that in some cases the whites involved behaved extremely badly... very inappropriate.. I would say that indians also... for whatever reason... acted in ways that were beyond barbaric... ways that would make anyones blood run cold these days.
dred... never broke a treaty? Well... I don't know about that.. will research it but.. you are aware that it was difficult for the Whites to tell just exactly what band of savages was slaughtering their people and often attributed the savagery of one group to another. Indians could not tell the difference in whites either.
The decline and the destruction of the indians was inevitable.
lazs
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Originally posted by Krusher
Russell Means has a part in this series also.
So did Garry Bussy. Small part though. Caught epp 1 last night, I have to say it was impressive to say the least.
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Dred, you ever find any substantiation of your "germ warfare" claim? Other than Amherst?
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Toad, I doubt that anybody's ever gonna find a 'smoking gun' that could convict Amherst of anything beyond consipracy to commit genocide by todays judical standards. Would make for an interesting mock trial..
On the other hand, his mention of it clearly indicates that the British were familiar with the effect smallpox had on the tribes, and how to easily transmit it for maximum effect.
Further, just about every place whites made contact with the indians during the first 100 years or so of colonization, diseases decimated the indians.. intentional? Probably not. Inevitable, yup.
Did the indians get a square deal? Nope.. not by our standards. By their standards? Yah, I'd say so. Both 'sides' were less than civilized in restitution for deeds. In Indian vs Indian confrontations, the losing tribe got on average a lot worse deal than Tribes vs the US Government confrontations.
Treaty's? A treaty is just the manisfestation of Diplomacy. And in the case of Indian Affairs, diplomacy was just the art of saying 'Nice Injun, here's some tobacco, booze and blankets..' while the white governments of the time looked for a way to kick 'em into oblivion.
Outcome? black eye for the Racist White American Government. A pretty decent break on taxes and land for the descendents of the Tribes today. Descendants of African American slaves in the US envy the deal.. they wish they could be so 'favored'... '40 acres and a mule' not withstanding. (time limit's up for blacks, indians by birth inherit the indian nation's grants and privledges)
Does 'white america' today 'owe' the indians?
Cripes.. now THERE''S a hot debate; and you can bet the indignant howls from both sides will be loud and long should any change of status-quo be forthcoming..
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Does 'white america' today 'owe' the indians?
All we owe the Indians is for white America to keep thier word pertaining to thier soverignity over those lands seded to them by treaty or negotiation. Let's not be Indian givers here, OK?
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Originally posted by Airhead
All we owe the Indians is for white America to keep thier word pertaining to thier soverignity over those lands seded to them by treaty or negotiation. Let's not be Indian givers here, OK?
Absolutely agreed, here. No beef with that whosoever.
One has to wonder tho.. considering our national record for sticking to treaties just how golden the promises from washington really are.
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I think I'll try to find a torrent for it.
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airhead... I have no problem with honoring any treaty made a hundred or more years ago involving the indians. If they are indeed a soverign country tho... then they should be left alone. If a white commits a crime there then it should not be a U.S crime and if they want him they have to extradite him. they should not be hooked up to our roads or power or infrastructure without paying and... they should not be subject to health laws for their establishments or any other regulations.
They shouldn't cost us a cent. the roads going to their reservations should be toll roads and they should have to have visas to visit the U.S.
lazs
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Originally posted by Toad
Dred, you ever find any substantiation of your "germ warfare" claim? Other than Amherst?
In all honesty I only did a breif search and so far, no.
And again in honesty thats what I've always heard so I just assumed it to be true
But he did brag about doing so no?
So it wouldnt surprise me if he did.
I mean that sort of thing your either going to keep hush hush or boast about doing it depending on your ego.
I think it unlikely that someone would boast of doing such a thing if they didnt really do it. Particularly if they are in a well recognised leadership role.
LOL its not like bragging about the big fish you didnt really catch.
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Originally posted by lazs2
airhead... I have no problem with honoring any treaty made a hundred or more years ago involving the indians. If they are indeed a soverign country tho... then they should be left alone. If a white commits a crime there then it should not be a U.S crime and if they want him they have to extradite him. they should not be hooked up to our roads or power or infrastructure without paying and... they should not be subject to health laws for their establishments or any other regulations.
They shouldn't cost us a cent. the roads going to their reservations should be toll roads and they should have to have visas to visit the U.S.
lazs
Just an FYI. I know for a fact that the Navajo nation pays for all their road construction, not the US. I used to work for Duininck Brothers, a major national highway construction company. They had to set up a seperate division with partial Native American ownership to be able to bid on Navajo highway projects. I worked on one of those projects in the Navajo nation at Crownpoint, NM. They are indeed a seperate nation with their own police force and judicial system.
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Amherst did suggest it and apparently one of his Colonels did it. I think that's been proven through correspondence.
That's not really the question. The question is "Did anyone else do it?" or maybe "Was it Official British (later US) policy?" or even "Can we show it was deliberately done by any other white-eyes?"
One thing to remember is that at the time smallpox was a big killer. An Englishman, Jenner, developed the first vaccine in 1796; by 1800 only about 100,000 people had been vaccinated worldwide.
It spread easily and rapidly in those days. If they were to practice "germ warfare" what was the planto keep the disease confined to the "enemy" without it spreading to allied tribes or even white settlements?
I even ran across one reference that indicated In 1882, the US government spent $1430.35 for vaccine for Indian tribes. Not nearly enough but still shows an intent to vaccinate them. The full reference is in a medical site that is passworded though.
Just saying that the "germ warfare" charge has been around a long time. There's that old saying "where's there's smoke there's fire"; I'd at least like to see some spark other than Amherst which happened before the US even existed.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Heh. come and try to take my land from me and I'd have become a peace loving red hippie too just like them.
And the White man did slaugheter em.
in more ways then one.
Including intentionally selling them blankets contaminated with the Small Pox Virus (germ warfare)
During the French and Indian Wars, blankets from smallpox patients were given to native Indian populations by British soldiers, with subsequent epidemics killing up to 50% of affected tribes.
Karaya
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The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
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Pretty cool Thrawn, never knew about them. Thanks for the link.
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rpm and airhead... the indians don't live on islands or even seperate countries with borders... If you want to make them seperate countries then that is fine with me... everyone should need visas to go there and the indians should need visas to get out.
It is in their best interest to become a part of the U.S. if we were to become completely seperate nations... the projects you talk about rpm.. (I did some work on reservation buildings) that work... do you think it was paid for buy the citizens of that indian nation? The fruits of their advanced agriculture and manufacturing process?
Nope... they are hopless at anything but vice. That is what they are reduced to. Pimps for vice... I expect drugs and prostitution to be another money maker for em in the future when we stop protecting their gambling and allow the real gambling pros in.
lazs
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speaking of costs, for a civil servant laz you sure do post at odd hours, i'm assuming you work 9-5.
what nuke, you didn't know that the framers basically mimicked what the iroquois had been doing for centuries..
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/
Yes, I was going to point them out to lazs. There were marked differnces between the tribes in many cases. It sounds to me like lazs is focusing on the plains tribes that usually get the attention in American History and in that case lazs' statements are broadly accurate.
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Originally posted by Karnak
It sounds to me like lazs is focusing on the plains tribes that usually get the attention in American History and in that case lazs' statements are broadly accurate.
I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt, until I saw the sweeping generalisations in his last post. No big surprise there though.
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I was speaking of the plains indians as that is the group where most of the "genocide" charges are refered to.. It is also the tribes that were involved in the "west" so I assume that the series would focus on the plains indians.
canadian and mexican indians were also "American" indians tho and... where are their great civilizations now? What did they do to adapt and how have they prospered?
I just really get sick of all the hand wringing about the plains indians from guys who think that kevin costner's movie is the hight of histrorical fact and that a plains indian tribe was not much different than a grateful ded concert.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
that a plains indian tribe was not much different than a grateful ded concert.
lazs
Non-germane to the thread but every once in a while you have to sit back and admire the mind behind the keyboard as in this comparison.
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Originally posted by lazs2
does it show how the evil white man slaughtered all the peace loveing red hippies?
lazs
No ... from the sample you can see, that most of red hippies has been killed by Bizons :rofl
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Originally posted by lazs2
Nope... they are hopless at anything but vice. That is what they are reduced to. Pimps for vice... I expect drugs and prostitution to be another money maker for em in the future when we stop protecting their gambling and allow the real gambling pros in.
lazs
shades of bigotry, do you also post while on the public's dime?
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I was off that day and.... I am on call for a lot of the time so my hours are strange including 10 hour days and 4 day weeks.
What is biggoted (untrue) about what I said. Show me where they have thrived without government protection in the U.S. or canada or mexico.
torque.. you seem to be able to post at odd times tho... Unemployed or just screwing around?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
rpm and airhead... the indians don't live on islands or even separate countries with borders... If you want to make them separate countries then that is fine with me... everyone should need visas to go there and the indians should need visas to get out.
It is in their best interest to become a part of the U.S. if we were to become completely separate nations... the projects you talk about rpm.. (I did some work on reservation buildings) that work... do you think it was paid for buy the citizens of that indian nation? The fruits of their advanced agriculture and manufacturing process?
Nope... they are hopeless at anything but vice. That is what they are reduced to. Pimps for vice... I expect drugs and prostitution to be another money maker for em in the future when we stop protecting their gambling and allow the real gambling pros in.
lazs
The first thing I want to address is this idea of generalization, your quote the are hopeless at anything but vice maybe you've seen that at the rez you worked at, but you cant say that's true for all rez's, because it doesn't describe the reservation I live on, its true drug and alcohol abuse is a major problem in our communities, but u cant say one shoe size fits all, metaphorically speaking.
As far as us becoming part of the U.S. I thought we already were lol, but seriously this sovereignty thing should be sorted out, as far as i know it, as long as you don't except federal assistance "I.E. federal grants" then theoretically you are sovereign like another country, though theirs really nothing except bad PR from stopping the government from imposing eminent domain, and taking the land by force if they wanted to make a stink about it, like say if they wanted to build a highway or military base, or for whatever reason wanted the land. I haven't heard of a case like that out hear in California, but theoretically its possible.
Now back to the ones that do accept federal grants, like my tribe. My rez is on federal trust land, held in trust by the feds for my particular tribe, we can govern our selves as long as our constitution fits within the guidelines of the U.S. constitution. different reservations may have a a slightly different setup, but in general this is how I understand it too be. The BIA "Bureau of Indian Affairs" is responsible for overseeing all grants, and making sure all the legal stuff is in order, "they are our land lords" though they don't easily admit it.
You also say
"taking their land away? You are aware that those peace loving hippies were slaughtering each other over land before we got there?"
Don't know were you got the idea them ol timers were peace loving hippies, they were just people, and yes we were killing each other in tribal warfare, any idiot could have figured that out. There was a place for diplomacy and for warfare and for the rules of engagement, it was different for each tribe, it was an etiquette, it was not a free for all slaughter house, or elts this land truly would have been vacant. Instead the outsiders who came to this continent encountered tens of thousands of Indian bands all throughout this land. Our moral compass and bible, were held in our ceremony's, passed down from generation too generation, which was given too us from god almighty himself, who gave people everywhere a set of rules and a way to live, within their ceremony's. We are just people, good bad and everything in between, but however we treated each other a long time ago, it still does not justify what was done to indian people, by a country that at its core holds respect for human rights and freedom in such high regard.
You say again
"You are also aware that indians for the most part had no concept of land ownership and the person who could take it owned it.... we played by their rules."
Ha, yeah justify it some more why don't ya, I think it was more like share and share alike accept the visitors didn't want to leave, and they kept multiplying, wasn't much we could do about it if we wanted too, take any action against it and you got treated to a massacre at dawn courtesy of the U.S. Cavalry, or local militia, though the local militia didn't really need much of a reason to burn and pillage, it seemed to be a pass time.
You again
"you do know that the tribes that did claim ownership were most often bartered out of their land and that either they, or another tribe would not recognize the agreement. We played their rules..."
Bartered, riiiaggght, yeah they sometimes did barter like that, it usually involved an indian agent getting the local elders drunk, then getting some form of agreement out of it, or just flat out forging a sign of agreemant, who was going too stop them from doing that? the law ha they were just indians
it didnt matter too anyone.
And again
"For the most part... they were murdering, torturing savages who were their own worst enemies... they destroyed any land they stayed on and when it got to barren or hunted out they moved to the next patch... only their barbaric medical practices, tribal warfare and infant mortality kept them from killing the entire continent."
Wow, such strong words, "ya hear that grandma ya aint nothing but a murdering torturing savage, and your you own worst enemy..." as far as I know it wasn't the Sioux who almost wiped out the buffalo, "ok so we might have wiped out the mamoth's of america, but common did you really want them big things in your back yard garden lol." We didn't poison the ground and water and air with pesticides and crap with names you can hardly pronounce, that cause cancer birth defects and other nasty stuff, or fill the air with soot, from thousands of factories. My tribe's main food source was acorns "and know dont pick an acorn up off the ground and eat it, it has to be leached first" but there were other foods available at different times of the year, so you had to move around, for one to survive, two too let the area regenerate so u didnt deplete it for next year, three family tie's are a big part of our culture, some years a family would stay with the husbands kin, the next the wifes kin. Now some tribes got into agriculture and had some fairly permanent settlements, though i'm not as familiar with there culture as I am with mine, would have to ask them for the finer points of it, the ups and downs of agricultural life, so to speak. I'll tell you what, them ol timers had some good stuff for all manner of new world illness, I.E. stuff we were familar with, why would'nt we be, we've been here for thousands of years, I think simple trial and error would have turned out some pretty nifty cures, stuff that could have helped people even today. unfortunetly alot of it was lost. Now the stuff that was brought over from the old world, didnt really have anything for it.
I see you live in Dixon CA, you live within my peoples tribal territory, unless you have lived in our community or have none our people, I just don't see how you can make such blanket comments like you have. The problems in indian country, are neither hear nor there, it takes people coming from both sides of the fence to come together for the common good to solve them, unfortunately the system isn't conducive to folks like that. So we just put one foot on front of the next and try too live as good a live as we can, just like everyone elts on this planet.
Peace out dudejavascript:smilie(':aok')
aok lol
:aok :aok
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Heya Rezdog... how the hell did you find this thread, let alone this BBS?
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howdy sand man, its the the 3rd from the top subject in my view of officers club,
found it interesting. Just got back from a long trip, needed something to do lol, and too stretch my brain out, it was a nice workout.