Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MiloMorai on June 11, 2005, 05:26:11 AM
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The average of British production of this grade of fuel was 56.3% of avgas production from Feb 44 to Mar 45 and only going under 50% for 3 months (Apr, May 44, Mar 45). Highest production was in Jan 45 with 77.1%.
A Lancaster carried 24 times (2154gal vs 88gal) the quantity of fuel than a Spitfire. Or to put it another way, one Lancaster would carry enough fuel for the requirement of 1.5 Spitfire squadrons, @ 16 a/c.
The Nov 44 150 production is the nearest to the average at 54.8% (6,030,500gal vs 4,966,500gal). This is enough fuel for 2300 Lancasters/Halifaxes.
Considering the number of bombers (Lancaster, Halifax) that would not use 100/150 fuel and the quantity of 100/130 fuel they carried, it would seem that fighter use of 100/150 grade fuel was extensive since why produce such quantity if it was not required and not used.
Discussion now open on how extensive the use of 100/150 fuel was.
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May 1944 - 2 Spit L.F. IX squadrons converted to 150 grade/25lbs boost. Only know 2 (1 and 165 sqns) for definate as I have seen pics of logs. But could easily surmise a lot more did.
Nov 1944 - Whole of the 2nd TAF Spits (IXe, XIV, and XVIe) with Merlin 66, 266 or Griffon 65 given clearance to use 150 grade fuel. Merlins @ 25lb boost, Griffon @ 21lb boost.
Should be implemented on the Spit remodel.
Replace current Spit F IX (least made) with a Spit L.F. IX/XVI Merlin 66/266 with 150 grade/25lbs boost.
Listing both the IX and XVI, as the XVI was basically a IX with a Packard Merlin 266 (American built Merlin 66). So could be done as either.
Would you mind if I used your figures in something I am putting together?
Could you point me to where/how you found out?
Thanks
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Look up Neil Stirling somewhere. He is "the man" on this issue.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Replace current Spit F IX (least made) with a Spit L.F. IX/XVI Merlin 66/266 with 150 grade/25lbs boost.
Then RAF will have a gap for 1942-43 fighter planeset.
currently RAF has '43-44 gap.
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Nope the current Spit 5 is a late 1942 model :)
For 1943 I suggest a Spit VIII - Apart from one sqn, all Far East sqns used it. (1000+ built)
I actually suggested this lineup
1939 Spit Ia Merlin II to 12lbs boost as per 1939, not 6lb as in AH
1942 Spit Vc Merlin 50 (current)
1943 Spit L.F. VIIIe Merlin 66, clipped wings
1944 Spit L.F. IXe/XVIe Merlin66/266 150 fuel/25 boost
1944 Spit VIX Griffon 65 (current)
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Nope the current Spit 5 is a late 1942 model :)
For 1943 I suggest a Spit VIII - Apart from one sqn, all Far East sqns used it. (1000+ built)
I actually suggested this lineup
1939 Spit Ia Merlin II to 12lbs boost as per 1939, not 6lb as in AH
1942 Spit Vc Merlin 50 (current)
1943 Spit L.F. VIIIe Merlin 66, clipped wings
1944 Spit L.F. IXe/XVIe Merlin66/266 150 fuel/25 boost
1944 Spit VIX Griffon 65 (current)
Gotta go with regular wing tipped Spit VIII Kev. The RAAF and CBI birds were all regular wing tips. Most of the other VIIIs were as well. Some clipped VIIIs in the Med later on but not many.No E wing on a VIII either. just the universal wing with the 2 20mm and 4 303.
Clip the LFIX/XVI as many were in 44-45 for the low level work.
Dan/CorkyJr
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One question about the clipped wing spitfires.
I read that the shorter wing really improved rollrate but had an adverse effect on stall characteristics. With the clipped wing the spit became prone to snap stalls in tight turns - similar to the FW190 - and the stall speed was somewhat higher than with the non-clipped wing.
Anyone - Neil or MW - have any experience/comparison reports about that?
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Naudet, I think the clipped wing Spits deserve their own thread.
But basically, clipping the wings was of little use and the RAF decided against it.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
May 1944 - 2 Spit L.F. IX squadrons converted to 150 grade/25lbs boost. Only know 2 (1 and 165 sqns) for definate as I have seen pics of logs. But could easily surmise a lot more did.
2 Squadrons? That`s doesn`t seem to be much of force, rather than operational testing. To my knowladge, there were 50+ MkIX squadrons in Britain alone during DDay.
Does anyone have fuel delivery documents to specific RAF squadrons that would show how much widespread the use of that fuel and boost was in view of the entire fighter force?
Was it common, or just a lucky minority using it for V-1 busting?
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The operational testing had already been carried out.
The only reason I mention 2 specific sqns is because I have seen pictures of the logs which mention the change.
The delay in the 2TAF getting full clearance was due to a small number of aircraft having backfires.
Once this was fixed (July 1944) it states "All engines capable of using this type of fuel will be modified"
All engines refers to Merlin 66/266 and Griffon 65 used bt Spit IXe/XVIe/XIV.
2TAF alone was cleared for 25 sqns of Mk IX, 5 Sqns Mk XVI, 5 Sqns Mk XIV to be modified.
RAF takes 20 aircraft per sqn as strength, whcih gives us 500 Mk IXs, 100 Mk XVI, 100 Mk XIV using 150/25 boost.
This doesnt include "Home Command".
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I have seen that document on the 2nd TAF, too, it mentions, iirc, 25+5 Sqns of IX/XVI, and 5 Sqn of XIV.
Anyone has a strenght report on the 2nd TAF in this period? I have seen such for it`s typhoon sqns, but they are very varying - sometimes 1-2 plane per squadron being operational (on avarage!), other times, 16-18...
Given the above, I think 3-400 fighters would be a good estimate. How many fighters the RAF had in 44/45?
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Tell me Barbarossa Isegrim why would the British produced 114,919,000 Imp gal of 150 grade fuel? This was 55.7% of avgas production from Feb 44.
The USAAF flew 570,097 fighter sorties in the ETO, but that ~115 million gallons was enough for 1,305,898 Spitfire sorties. You want us to believe it was only 'penny pocket' usage for V-1 busting?
Kev367th,
this is the document > POWE 33/1363. I can send it to you.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The USAAF flew 570,097 fighter sorties in the ETO, but that ~115 million gallons was enough for 1,305,898 Spitfire sorties.
According to you, and I doubt there`d be muc htruth in it : primarly because there weren`t as many Spitfire sorties during the whole war.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
According to you, and I doubt there`d be much truth in it : primarly because there weren`t as many Spitfire sorties during the whole war.
I did not say that was how many sorties, only that it was enough for that many. :rolleyes:
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D-Day the RAF had approx 32 sqns of Spit IX including the 2TAF.
So remove the 25 sqns cleared for 150 grade fuel in Nov leaves 7 non Merlin 66/266 sqns.
That is a vast majority of Spit IXe's cleared for 150-grade/25lbs boost.
Plus the backfire document July 1944 that clearly states -
"All engines capable of using this type of fuel will be modified" , not some or a couple but ALL.
Would point to the theory that most were converted once full clearence was given, in 2TAF case Nov 1944.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
D-Day the RAF had approx 32 sqns of Spit IX including the 2TAF.
Can you point me a source to that? I am researching IX squadrons per period, so far what I found is Squadron Signal stating the 50-odd number. I`d like to figure out the real number.
And note that there`s difference between a clearance given and actual use. That`s why we need some evidence that specific squadons
a, had the neccesary modifications made
b, had the fuel delivered
c, had the fuel used up
Otherwise we are left guessing. :/
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Try -
http://www.raf.mod.uk/dday/rafu.html
You have to work your way through the whole lot, but I think it comes to around 32.
As for guessing, a lot of the aircraft specs in AH2 are educated guesses I would assume, given there has to be some lack of documentation on exact numbers etc.
Did a real quick count -
2 TAF alone had 30 Spit IX sqns.
So out of 30 sqns in June, 5 months later 25 were given clearance to use 150 grade. Think we can at least safely assume the overwhelming majority of Spit IX's in 1944 (prob 1943 also) had the Merlin 66 engine, and that they were L.F. IXe's.
This doesn't include any XVI/XIV units.
You would have to add the Home Defence Units also.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
And note that there`s difference between a clearance given and actual use. That`s why we need some evidence that specific squadons
a, had the neccesary modifications made
b, had the fuel delivered
c, had the fuel used up
Otherwise we are left guessing. :/
My, My. :eek:
This from the person that did neither 'a', nor neither 'b', nor neither 'c'. for 1.98 ata in the 109. All we saw from from him is pure speculation > 'planned and proposed'.
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That link:
"Try -
http://www.raf.mod.uk/dday/rafu.html "
Is worth many words, - TY for it.
Too few,,,,too late,,,,futile,,,,- words like that cross my mind.
And over the beaches of D-Day that fine June morning, there were like 2*109's?
Priller and his wingman.
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Hey Angus,
It was FW-190A8's from Stab/JG26.
Those were not the only sorties flown that day or combats.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1119123585_01jun.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1119123648_01jun2.jpg)
When I began to realize the magnitude of the imbalance of forces that existed for the majority of the war I had to wonder why there never was a "Turkey Shoot" in the European Theater. Operation Argument was certainly a turning point but it was nowhere near the level of destruction as that suffered by the Japanese in one engagement.
When you examine the operations conducted by the Luftwaffe it becomes clear the argument of "Well they did not fight" holds no water. They did fight with all that they had. They just did not have very much nor did they ever hold numerical superiority with the exception of the first few months of the war.
The Luftwaffe inspite of its small numbers was bled to death over an extended period of time. Had the Nazi Leadership thought more strategically and increased their pilot training numbers above prewar levels early in the war instead of waiting until 1943, I think the war would have lasted much longer.
All the best,
Crumpp
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Wow, nice finding Crumpp.
Adie Glunz and Pips Priller.
I recall that Priller died many years ago, wonder about Glunz.
Anyway, will be back later.
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Adolf Glunz, passed away on August 1st, 2002. He was afflicted with Alzheimer's since 1986, and was also battling Parkinson's.
"Addi" Glunz flew a total of 574 missions, including 238 with enemy contact, in achieving 71 victories. His total includes 19 four-engined bombers.
He has never shot down or wounded.
All the best,
Crumpp
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That's sad. Well we're losing them all eventually.
What a lucky one though, getting away that easily. All the top guns were shot down or ditching many times.
The only thing I remember about him in a swift glance is that he was told to have been a phenomenal aerobatic pilot.
Do you have some link where I can read up on Addie? or Priller?
(I have Hartmann's book and Rall's books both, and have been in contact with a person who served under Barhorn post-war).
Now to the flip side, - I'll give you some cookies on our Icelander, Tony Jonsson. He passed away in 2001.
He flew 1200 hrs in WW2, there off some 500 hrs+ under combat circumstances.
(Other duties were actually tug pulling and instructing, - combat maneuvers and such)
He got wounded once, from cutting his knee on a tin can, which he dove on to to save himself from machine-gun fire, - a strafing 109.
He was hospitalized once, - because of scabies!
Combat missions were everything from Rhubarbs in 1941, CAP and scrambles in 1942 (Africa), offensive missions in 1943, and in 1944 everything basically, - train busting, bridge busting, crossbow, offensive CAP, bug-chasing and escort all the way to Berlin and such.
1945 some of the same, then finishing second TOD and going to his native country.
Flew his whole life and entered hazards again as the CO of aiding missions in the Biafra conflict (Nigeria?-drugs and food transport). Flew 400+ missions there, was fired at several times, and strafed on the last mission's takeoff. (Got the throttle shot out of his hand I'm told). Encountered Migs and Flak as well, - his rides were DC-4's or 6's I belive.
Flew in Zaire, and on the Iceland Greenland route, where he got out of an encounter with a glacier by flopping a fully loaded DC-4 into a wingover!
Finished on 747's by Cargolux, with 36.000 hrs in the book.
When you look at this, you wonder just, how one gets out of this without a scratch!!! What a life!!
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http://www.luftwaffe.cz/experten.html
To compare with other countries:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html
Now to the flip side, - I'll give you some cookies on our Icelander, Tony Jonsson. He passed away in 2001.
A very brave soul. It is to these kinds of men, willing to risk all of their tomorrow's, that the free world owes its existence.
All the best,
Crumpp
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From Fighter Command War Diaries Volume 4, Spit IX Squadrons as at June 5 1944.
Sub-type follows squadron where given. I don't know shyte about LF.IX's, do they count? I've included them anyway.
2ND TAF
83 Group
125 Wing
132 Sqn B
453 Sqn B
602 Sqn B
126 Wing
401 Sqn B
411 Sqn B
412 Sqn B
127 Wing
403 Sqn B
416 Sqn B
421 Sqn
144 Wing
441 Sqn B
442 Sqn B
443 Sqn B
84 Group
131 Wing
302 Sqn E
308 Sqn
317 Sqn
132 Wing
66 Sqn LF.IXB
331 Sqn B
134 Wing
310 Sqn LF.IX
312 Sqn LF.IXB
135 Wing
222 Sqn LF.IXE
349 Sqn LF.IXE
485 Sqn B
145 Wing
329 Sqn B
340 Sqn B
341 Sqn B
85 Group
150 Wing
56 Sqn B
AIR DEFENCE GREAT BRITAIN
10 Group
1 Sqn B
165 Sqn B
126 Sqn B
11 Group
33 Sqn LF.IXE
74 Sqn LF.IXE
127 Sqn HF.IX
80 Sqn B
229 Sqn
274 Sqn
402 Sqn B
14 Group
118 Sqn C
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Originally posted by Scherf
From Fighter Command War Diaries Volume 4, Spit IX Squadrons as at June 5 1944.
Sub-type follows squadron where given. I don't know shyte about LF.IX's, do they count? I've included them anyway.
2ND TAF
83 Group
125 Wing
132 Sqn B
453 Sqn B
602 Sqn B
126 Wing
401 Sqn B
411 Sqn B
412 Sqn B
127 Wing
403 Sqn B
416 Sqn B
421 Sqn
144 Wing
441 Sqn B
442 Sqn B
443 Sqn B
84 Group
131 Wing
302 Sqn E
308 Sqn
317 Sqn
132 Wing
66 Sqn LF.IXB
331 Sqn B
134 Wing
310 Sqn LF.IX
312 Sqn LF.IXB
135 Wing
222 Sqn LF.IXE
349 Sqn LF.IXE
485 Sqn B
145 Wing
329 Sqn B
340 Sqn B
341 Sqn B
85 Group
150 Wing
56 Sqn B
AIR DEFENCE GREAT BRITAIN
10 Group
1 Sqn B
165 Sqn B
126 Sqn B
11 Group
33 Sqn LF.IXE
74 Sqn LF.IXE
127 Sqn HF.IX
80 Sqn B
229 Sqn
274 Sqn
402 Sqn B
14 Group
118 Sqn C
2 TAF Spits would have been LFs since they were working down low. ADGB groups like 11 Group may have had a mix to deal with high alt threats as well so you'd find HFIX, VII or FIX in some of those units along with LFs in other units.
There was no IXB. RAF pilots initially referred to the LFIX as the Spitfire IXB with the FIX being the IXA, but it was not an official designation.
128 RAF squadrons operated IXs or XVIs at one point or another during it's service life.
Wonder what the "B" stands for after some of the squadron's listed?
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The average of British production of this grade of fuel was 56.3% of avgas production from Feb 44 to Mar 45 and only going under 50% for 3 months (Apr, May 44, Mar 45). Highest production was in Jan 45 with 77.1%.
A Lancaster carried 24 times (2154gal vs 88gal) the quantity of fuel than a Spitfire. Or to put it another way, one Lancaster would carry enough fuel for the requirement of 1.5 Spitfire squadrons, @ 16 a/c.
The Nov 44 150 production is the nearest to the average at 54.8% (6,030,500gal vs 4,966,500gal). This is enough fuel for 2300 Lancasters/Halifaxes.
Considering the number of bombers (Lancaster, Halifax) that would not use 100/150 fuel and the quantity of 100/130 fuel they carried, it would seem that fighter use of 100/150 grade fuel was extensive since why produce such quantity if it was not required and not used.
Discussion now open on how extensive the use of 100/150 fuel was.
"The average of British production". Wasn't most of the total production and consumption actually US produced avgas tankered in from the states?
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Hmm, it appears Kev was right - that`s 11 Sqn with ADGB, 26 with 2nd TAF, total 37, if my count is right. Not much, about 440 operational aircraft flying missions.
It also appears that my previous assessment based on the indirect evidences available about the relatively small numbers of MkIXs in service was correct. A year before, in July 1943, there were only 10 Sqns of them in service.. plus those two XII sqns. still the Mk V was dominant, being four times as widespread.
However, some units may be in MTO that also used the Mark IX at that period, so 50 may be right for the total number sqns - or not. afaik, and again, according to indirect evidence, there were even less MkIXs there than in the more important western european theatre.
Flying those SpitVs must have been scary in 1944 - and there were quite a few around, even in 1945.
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A wonder really, that some Mk V's were still around in 1945.
Not many 109F's around at that time, or P40's....or a6m2's, or basically any other plane with issue dates from 1941.
Bear in mind that the production of the Mk IX is close to the production of the V, - IX and it's similar sister VIII totalled is well over the V.
Anyway, did the 4 engined bombers run on 150 oct at all? I thought they were rather more limited on the boost. So you would rather keep the high oct fuel for the fighters, right?
Harrry Broadhurst was asked what he considered to have been the best Spitfire model. He replied: "The Mk IX on +25 boost"
I have to dig this up, - when I find a VCR :(
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I think some Mosquito FBVIS run on 150 grade fuel, too.
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Hmm, it appears Kev was right - that`s 11 Sqn with ADGB, 26 with 2nd TAF, total 37, if my count is right. Not much, about 440 operational aircraft flying missions.
It also appears that my previous assessment based on the indirect evidences available about the relatively small numbers of MkIXs in service was correct. A year before, in July 1943, there were only 10 Sqns of them in service.. plus those two XII sqns. still the Mk V was dominant, being four times as widespread.
However, some units may be in MTO that also used the Mark IX at that period, so 50 may be right for the total number sqns - or not. afaik, and again, according to indirect evidence, there were even less MkIXs there than in the more important western european theatre.
Flying those SpitVs must have been scary in 1944 - and there were quite a few around, even in 1945.
Actually 37 given the R.A.F. average of 20 for an operational squadron (their figures, not mine) equals 740, not 440 aircraft.
Far East squadrons apart from one all used Spit L.F. VIII's
All Mk XVI were deliverd as L.F.'s.
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Chris Shores "2nd TAF, Volume 1: Spartan to Normandy" says 134 Wing was made up of 3 squadrons of Spitfire IXs, 310,312 and 313.
It also says 402 Sqn was on Mosquitos, however this is incorrect.
It further gives 501 and 345 Squadrons on Spit IXs.
The "B" in the Fighter Command War Diaries is where it gives a squadron as being on Spitfire IXBs. Don't ask me, but that's what it says.
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IXB is easy to explain.
Originally the 'c' wing for the IX was 4x20mms.
The 'improved b' wing - 2x20 + 4x303 + bomb load became known as the 'c' wing.
Although IXB is strictly correct, even most kit manufacturers list them as IXC's.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
IXB is easy to explain.
Originally the 'c' wing for the IX was 4x20mms.
The 'improved b' wing - 2x20 + 4x303 + bomb load became known as the 'c' wing.
Although IXB is strictly correct, even most kit manufacturers list them as IXC's.
The IXB was the unofficial designation for the LFIX.
You'll see pilot quotes talking about getting on IXBs. This was in reference to the arrival of the LFIX and it's popularity with the pilots.
We had a long debate about this on the Flypast forum. It was good fun and we came to the conclusion there never was an IXC
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20000
Dan/CorkyJr
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ORBAT for RAFs 2nd TAF for June 1944 was as follows
88 Medium Bombers (67 Operational)
160 Light Bombers (146 Operational)
1006 Fighters (856 Operational)
1254 a/c of which 1069 were ops ready.
Source "Overlord" page 411.
The Squadron breakdowns I wont bother repeating. The #s do not include any a/c from Fighter Command (ADGB), Bomber Command or Coastal Command based in G.B.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually 37 given the R.A.F. average of 20 for an operational squadron (their figures, not mine) equals 740, not 440 aircraft.
Hmm, the established strenght was indeed 20 a/c issued per squadron, however 8 out of the 20 were reserve aircraft and did not fly missions, just the remaining 12. So while the present strenght was probably close to 700 (given the low intensity operations of the two units), the actual number of a/c that were ready to fly operations was probably 440-odd.
I doubt the 'typical' 20/sqn aircraft anyway, in no air force would it be possible to keep the strenght 100% all the time, losses were constant and took a bit delay to replace. The book 'Operation Bodenplatte' gives figures for the 2TAF`s Typhoon sqns in late 1944, at one time they had 17-18 or even 20 a/c sqn present, but just before december the number of operational a/c sank to only 1 to 3 per squadrons. Surely they were replaced, but it shows the 20 ac/sqn figure is rather theoretical.
I am not sure if anybody else issued so many reserves available to such small sized units as a squadron; it`s a rather ineffiecient way to use the available a/c, but it made sense in the RAF, tasked primarly to defend the british isles and as it was organised with sector defense system. So many reserves would mean that even with heavy losses, the units could hold their fighting power of 12 a/c well for sustained time.
Far East squadrons apart from one all used Spit L.F. VIII's
All Mk XVI were deliverd as L.F.'s. [/B]
Do you know details about the MTO units?
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Order of Battle for 2 TAF on June 5, 1944 listed in John Foremans book "1944 over the Beaches"
The Fighter Squadrons included:
26 Spitfire Squadrons, all but one being Spit IXs. The other was an XIV Squadron.
16 Typhoon Squadrons
2 Tempest Squadrons
6 Mustang III Squadrons
6 Mossie Squadrons
ADGB Squadrons had an additional 26 Spitfire Squadrons. 10 were Spitfire IX, 2 were VII, 1 XII and 1 XIV. 10 Were Spitfire V
The Spit IX was clearly the dominant RAF fighter in numbers at this point.
There were no Spit Vs operating on the continent as the remaining squadrons were transitioning to IXs and XVIs within the next couple months in England.
There were Spit Vs flying over the beaches on D-Day. I've seen photos of 501 Spit Vbs in D-Day stripes and in flight that day.
There were also Seafires flying as spotters for the big guns of the RN as well.
I believe the latest operational combat Spit Vs were those of 2 SAAF flying those ground attack 4 cannon Spit Vc trops in the MTO in late 44.
Dan/CorkyJr
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To summerize, total 37 sqns of IXs in the RAF, 25 being 2ndTAF, 10 ADGB.
That leaves 2 unaccounted - MTO?
I wonder about the rate of changeover between July 1943 (10 IX sqns) and June 1944 (37 sqns).
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Order of Battle for the Mediterranean Air Command as of July 10, 1943 lists 35 Spitfire Squadrons.
Of those listed, and it includes 6 American flown Spitfire Squadrons, 24 of them flew either IXs or VIIIs at some point. That includes the USAAF 31st FG that flew Vs, then IXs and then VIIIs. 52nd FG USAAF had IXs. 1435 Squadron on Malta had Spit IXs. 92 Squadron flew Vs, IXs and VIIIs. 417 flew Vs then VIIIs. 145 flew Vs then VIIIs. 601 had Vs then IXs and VIIIs. 43 had VIIIs, 72 had IXs, 93, 111, 243, 81, 154, 232, 242 had IXs or VIIIs. 73 had IXs. 225 had Vs then IXs. 253 had clipped wing VIIIs. 4 Squadron SAAF had IXs
First IXs in the MTO were 81 Squadron in January 1943. 72 Squadron and 145 Squadron followed shortly afterwards. Both the USAAF 31st and 52nd FG's got IXs in April 43.
145 Squadron got the first VIIIs in June of 43.
Dan/CorkyJr
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I was going to type just those Spit IX squadrons operating in 43 as there seems to be more then the 10 you mention. Instead I scanned the list of IX/XVI Squadrons with dates of service.
Have fun
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1119601918_ixsx2.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1119601886_ixsx1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Hmm, the established strenght was indeed 20 a/c issued per squadron, however 8 out of the 20 were reserve aircraft and did not fly missions, just the remaining 12. So while the present strenght was probably close to 700 (given the low intensity operations of the two units), the actual number of a/c that were ready to fly operations was probably 440-odd.
Interesting way to look at the British OoB, so why do you include non-operational/non front line 109s in the German OoB and even those not in the ETO?
"On 31 January 1945 the combat units of the Luftwaffe and their associated Erganzungs Einheiten, had the following strength in Bf109 types. These are on hand totals, they include both 'frontline' and 'other' units. Included are all aircraft operational and non-operational at the time."
Why have reserve a/c if they were not ready to fly operations? That would mean a returning a/c that went U/S from a morning mission would make the squadron 1 a/c short for an afternoon mission.
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Milo, I think you missed the thread and probalby your mind with that german oob thingie. nobody even remotely mentioned that here. Otherwise I merely qouted another guys post with information.
Guppy, that`s good info, i will look into it when I have time.
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The 10Sqn of MkIX/mid1943 info is for the fighter command/2ndtaf only in england. It comes from foreman, iirc. I saved the page somwhere. 10 MkIXs, 37 Mk Vs Sqn plus the change at that time in Britian.
Was 145 Sqn`s MkVIIIs the operational debut of the type in Europe in mid-43?
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Originally posted by Kurfürst
Milo, I think you missed the thread and probalby your mind with that german oob thingie. nobody even remotely mentioned that here. Otherwise I merely qouted another guys post with information.
Guppy, that`s good info, i will look into it when I have time.
My my Kurfy another insult. That was a quote of yours from another thread, or have you forgotten what you wrote?
As usual, you manipulate data and take the 'best' for the Germans and give the 'worst' for the British.
The point being, if you want to include second line and front line, even in other theatres, German a/c in the numbers of 109s you state that are available then the reserve Spitfires in a British squadrons should also be counted.
Even at 16 a/c per squadron (for an average) that is 592 Spitfires in 37 squadrons. Any deficet would, and could, be replaced easily, and quickly, from MUs.
BTW, this thread's subject is 150 fuel use. Do you still claim that 150 fuel was not the predominate fuel used by fighters as you did in the thread on Butch's board until you got the thread locked?
With 55.7% of British avgas production from Feb 44 being 150, and bombers using much more 100 fuel, what a/c would use the excess 150 fuel that was available? That 6,030,500 gals of 150 produced in Nov 44 was enough for 68,500 Spitfire sorties.
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Rattle around at will, but the definate case is that the 150 oct fuel for the RAF was in 1944/1945 widely available, while the LW was down to pulling their macines around the ramp with oxen, just to save fuel. (guess they ate them afterwards, hehe)
Anyway, all jokes skipped, it seems like the RAF fighter command did indeed have lots of 150 octs fuel to use.
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Rattle around at will, but the definate case is that the 150 oct fuel for the RAF was in 1944/1945 widely available, while the LW was down to pulling their macines around the ramp with oxen, just to save fuel. (guess they ate them afterwards, hehe)
Need to keep in mind that the Germans were in all likelihood using C3 fuel which was the equivalent of allied 100/150.
In 1943, the few C3 samples the allies' tested were showing greater than 125 weak mixture knock rating. In fact C3 fuel from a 1941 sample easily gave 140 weak mixture knock rating after hydroforming, the process the Germans were using and developed.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1119658258_c3octane1943.jpg)
Now the report is far from conclusive as the allies never gained enough C3 fuel to adequately test much less use in test flights of captured aircraft. So based on this report it is impossible to say "all C3 fuel was...".
Just like the allies, it is probably a safe assumption that the Germans broke their fuel production down according to end users. In other words, Ju88's received a different quality of C3 than FW-190A fighter units.
What is certain is that different grades of C3 fuel existed and were used.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1119658334_c3fuelsamples.jpg)
This report is dated June '44:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1119658405_c3testtitleanddate.jpg)
All the best,
Crumpp
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Here is another page. Unfortunately the administrator will not let me edit my post to add it!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1119660842_c3fuelresults.jpg)
All the best,
Crumpp