Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Udie on November 27, 2001, 03:07:00 PM
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History is a funny thing and seems to me to be as worthless lately as most memories are short. Who ever it was that said the more things change the more they stay the same was a freakin genious. We're in a situation/war that many of us on this board, the USA and around the world saw coming for the past 8 years or so.
We hear people say that we need to look at "why" they hate us so much. The same people say that the US has killed hundreds of thousands of inocent Iraqi civilians with sanctions. We hear about American made planes flown by Isreal killing inocent civilians in palestine. Yet you never hear from the same people about the weapons inspectors kicked out of Iraq (one of the key components of the cease fire remember the war hasn't been declared "over") You never hear from the same people about the hundreds and thousands of inocent Isreali's killed in discoe clubs or on busses or in malls.
Some say that we brought this on ourselves, then they are barked at and labeled "traitor" well they're not far off the mark, they just have the wrong reasoning. Yes we brought this upon ourselves when we didn't follow through with what was stated and proven in the past. I'd love to blame Clinton Solely but the congress and most of all the American people deserve blame too.
My blame is that all I really wanted for most of his 8 years was for him to be gone. Not for sex in the oval office or for lying about it at least twice under oath. Though both of those are impeachable IMNSHO. But for all the stuff he didn't do or stuff he did do but got away with. The American peoples blame is that either like me they wanted him gone so badly that that's all they saw or they were more interested in the market and their 401k's than the state of the world we live in.
The congress is the bigger part of the blame lies. They have the power to right the wrongs done by a president. They didn't do their jobs. The Republicans had the "witch hunt" and the Democrats well, they just got busy destroying all the respect I had for that party. I'm still saddened buy the farce of a hearing that John Glenn chaired, lost respect for one of my biggest heroes then :( Domesticly I guess both parties did "alright" But the Democrats drove the race card into the ground. All the while letting Clinton totally diddly up 20+ years of successful foriegn policy when they had the power to stop him.
Now we did get some things right in the end, I'm speaking of Serbia. We got it right finaly after doing what should have been done when Bush was still president. How many people had to die because of political roadkill in that war? At least we fixed it I guess.
To this high school / college drop out, simple minded sophisticated southern country boy who grew up in the big city :D it would seem that NOBODY has learned from the history of the past 100 years. Throughout the 90's I would tell friends that this is what the 20's must have felt like. Excess in every form, sex, drugs, rock and roll, money and power are abundant while the giant sleeps. But nowhere is there any responsibility. That seems to come after the decodent years in the form of world wide war. How many wars are going on right now? Well there's a responsible person in charge now. If things go wrong I'm sure he will take the blame.
There's more I want to say, but I'm starting to ramble so I'll post more later.
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You sound as if you believe that this is still a democracy in this country...
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Yes! that eight year nightmere of peace and prosperity is finally over Thank God!
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Unfortunately, the bill for buying peace by hosing a few cruise missiles off into empty camps in Afghanistan has now come due.... the "interest cost" was two buildings in NYC.
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Udie, could you please post examples of 20 years of successful policy that clinton messed up ?
As for the rest of your post, you're improving :)
You ask why some people were ( and we know who you have in mind :D ) don't post about "other" side of the story.
Well, answer is very simple. Because everyone KNOWS that side. Any news you turn on you'll find that info, radio/TV/Websites so on, it's all over the place.
By posting the "other" perspective, i guess we're tring to make a small contribution to the "balanace" of things.
Some misinterpret it for sympathy for the other side. It's not.
I believe that Hussain should have been killed when we were there the first time , heck, when I was there.
( please note that i will refrein from using this to take cheap shots at administarions )
Statement above doesn't remove the fact that kids are dying of starvation over there.
Yes, iraqi kids, but still, "unpolitical, couldn't care less about Saddam or weapons" kids.
It bothers be when news never bothers to show a darn thing on a subject, therefore i'll take it upon myself to remind some of the other side of the wall, while i might not definatelly agree with it.
Toad, i always been under impression that you were above this level of smeer. Rip posts things like that :D
How about this one, WWII was a interest payment for George Washington not scratching his bellybutton on his 14th birthday ?
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Great post Ski!
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It's no smear, Ski. IIRC, even Bin Laden said that response merely confirmed his assessment that the US had no will.
Those wonderful eight years :rolleyes: were poll driven by someone with their eyes ever on the fickle windsock of public opinion.
Not always the best way to chart a course, IMO.
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Arent the sanctions on Iraq UNITED NATIONS based? Errr... so that means the world community is killing people in Iraq correct?
xBAT
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Medical supplies have never been sanctioned to Iraq. How people think the world is responsible for killing Iraqi's is laughable, and the fact that they have a dictorship that controls all the imports that do go into the country, and the fact that he used chemical weapons on his own people, well, if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
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Originally posted by batdog:
Arent the sanctions on Iraq UNITED NATIONS based? Errr... so that means the world community is killing people in Iraq correct?
xBAT
yes, but that's beside the point as it doesn't make the US out to be the terrible one to the bleeding heart libs.
how does Iraq manage to buy/install state of the art Chinese radar/missile systems while they can't feed their own?? Sounds like they have their priorities bellybutton backwards to me ...
don't worry, I'm sure if we start bombing the piss out of Iraq, we'll drop grub on them too just like we are in Afgan .. sheesh. :rolleyes: what a PC way to run a war..
Don't you just love the "bridge to the 21st century" that crack pot built for us for the last 8 years ??!!
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ARRRRGGG I should have saved the post it was only about 1/2 done when I got tired of typing.
I don't have time at work today to debate or anything like that so I'll have to wait until tonight to finish :(
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Udie,
Love your post. You are right in your description of the facts.
Now to the point where you are wrong.
You are wrong in your attempt to define the cause: "it would seem that NOBODY has learned from the history of the past 100 years".
From that statement alone it is obvious to me that your own historical view is very limited.
If you read history - preferably from the works of professionals - strategists, politicians, economists - rather then historians, you will see that there was a lot of history before the last 100 years - about 5000 to be precise - and they encountered much the same problems and failed to learn from them every year over the last 5000.
Even (more or less representative) democracy was successfully tried on the vast scale in Greece, Rome, Novgorod, and Poland-Lithuania and other places and was eventually lost through ineptness of participants.
Most history that is being taught everywhere is pretty much false or misleading as to the causes of things - as it requires some specialized knowlege to understand. Also, the main attention is paid to real or imagined victories and successes - which are nowhere as good for learning as study of errors. "Economist" article "History Lessons" of Nov 3 about teaching history in Britain tells it better then I could.
So I confidently conclude that in general, humanity does not have long enough attention span to derive any lessons from history. Some indicidual people cam make great use of it, but not humanity in general, at least not in the democratic context where mass stupidity and ignorance is bound to prevail over exceptional foresight and knowlege.
That is pretty much the law of nature - with the best teaching of history possible only a small fraction of people is capable to understand and use the knowlege and exercise foresight based on the knowlege. No more then 10-15 percent to be exact.
As it happens now, out of those top 10-15 percent of people capable of understanding (IQ 115+), most are not interested in history or not getting the right education, etc.
That is the primary reason why free market system works while democracy fails - free market allows the few capable people to raise to the top to make a difference while democracy prevents it.
In economy a genius does not have to explain his ideas to masses of dumb people to get their approval for some action. At most he has to persuade a few bankers to loan him the money.
So you may as well spare your breath and stop expecting any improvement in public policy (except chance election of a capable person) and make your personal provisions for handling the concequenses.
Of course the scientists may discover the workings of the brain some day and find a way to ensure minimum IQ of 115 for the whole population - then things can become different.
P.S. IQ 115 is not the important value - you can use SAT score or any other value - the result will be the same. Curently only about 15 percent of the population is capable of getting through college (real college, not welfare substitute). You can hardly expect someone not capable of graduating from college and without knowlege of at least the college education to be qualified to make decisions on how to run the country - otherwise what is the point of intelligence and education?
miko
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Wow. The topic of Clinton sure does polorize people.
You can't deny that this sexual addict brought shame to the office of the President. Or that he harmed his political party as well. Or that he is responsible for educating a generation of 7 year olds about blow jobs. Or that he lied under oath and was impeached and disbarred for it. I guess it all depends on what you expect from a president. Many people do not buy the notion that Clinton can take credit for the global forces that gave us relative peace and prosperity during his time in office.
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Originally posted by Gunthr:
You can't deny that this sexual addict brought shame to the office of the President.
I'm by no means a Clinton supporter, but "sexual addict"? If wanting to get a hummer from a young "pleasantly plump" chick and then hoping no one finds out about it makes you a sexual addict...well, I better go find me a treatment program. :)
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Originally posted by Gunthr:
Many people do not buy the notion that Clinton can take credit for the global forces that gave us relative peace and prosperity during his time in office.
And many people don't buy the story that all presidents before and after Slick Willy were saints.
Only difference is the scale of witch hunts, in Cliton's times they exceeded everyone's expectations.
There are documented cases of presidents who lied directly and indirectly. Some presidents had more bellybutton in WH then Clinton even dreamed off. Just in the past it was "his and his family" problem... till it became convinient to drag president though the mud for political purposes.
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Originally posted by fd ski:
And many people don't buy the story that all presidents before and after Slick Willy were saints.
Only difference is the scale of witch hunts, in Cliton's times they exceeded everyone's expectations.
There are documented cases of presidents who lied directly and indirectly. Some presidents had more bellybutton in WH then Clinton even dreamed off. Just in the past it was "his and his family" problem... till it became convinient to drag president though the mud for political purposes.
For political purposes?! LOL for chrissakes, the man LIED UNDER OATH! I personally don't want a man who lies under oath to have his index finger on a nuclear button, whether it be Tricky Dick or Slick willy!
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Raubvogel, if that was all it takes to earn the diagnosis of sexual addict, I'd be one too :)... I'm relying here on the comments of some mental health professionals I've seen interviewed over time, who were commenting on the known sexual incidents that came to light in Clinton's public life. (too long to list here lol) These analysis' indicted that Clinton is indeed a tad compulsive in his sexual conduct.
Fd-ski:
And many people don't buy the story that all presidents before and after Slick Willy were saints.
Only difference is the scale of witch hunts, in Cliton's times they exceeded everyone's expectations.
I've never heard anyone say that "all presidents before and after Slick Willy were saints." I don't defend any immoral, dishonest, self serving or compulsive conduct by any public official - ever. Your argument is lost on me.
And if you call the events that took place around Clinton during his time in office a WITCH HUNT, then Clinton certainly jumped up onto the stake and lit the fire himself!
And what about that cigar thing? Where was the liberal outrage when Clinton encouraged a young person to use a tobacco product? ;)
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Rip, you sound surprised. Dont you know that the best liar is the one that gets the office? Its a universal law..in all countries and throught all time.
Xbat, the UN is for all purposes, a puppet of the US. That it has limited powers because other nations in the UN can veto or block an action, perhaps..but thats where "economical" power sets in. Im wondering how many deals, favors, threats and trade benefits were given to pakistan for "helping" against Afghanistan.. and the same can be said for Saudi Arabia and all other countries that hosted UN forces in the gulf war. Not to mention the pressures to be brought or deals made to secure a vote in your favor during a UN session. $$$ is where its all at.
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Originally posted by 38:
Rip, you sound surprised. Dont you know that the best liar is the one that gets the office? Its a universal law..in all countries and throught all time.
Well, I'm not quite that cynical(sp?) of our system of Gov't...after all, we wouldn't have the lifestyles we have if all politicians were crooked.
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taken from Bartcop,
When Bill Clinton was president, we had peace.
When Bill Clinton was president, Greenspan had to constantly apply the brakes
to the economy because it was white hot with a smart president working full-time.
When Bill Clinton was president, the stock market tripled.
When Bill Clinton was president, all we argued about was how to spend the Clinton surplus.
When Bill Clinton was president, we still had a Bill of Rights.
When Bill Clinton was president, a citizen's vote counted for sometime.
When Bill Clinton was president, New York was intact and swaggering.
When Bill Clinton was president, the First Lady didn't wear a Taliban muzzle.
When Bill Clinton was president, people smiled when they thought about the future.
When Bill Clinton was president, criminal trials were open to the public
When Bill Clinton was president, we worried about his sex life, instead of whether or not
the president's evil crime family bungled us into a big-ass war like his crooked father did ten years ago..
...but then that thieving son of a squeak stole power, with the help of a potato court.
heheh thought you'd like that
10Bears
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So many inaccuracies in that too 10bears, LOL, where does one begin?
Peace with clinton? Want to tell that to the Bosnians? Or Somolia? Or Sudan? the list goes on!~ I could tear that apart, but I have neither the time, nor the patience, to train ignorance.(not you personally, 10bears, just ignorance globally)
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"Well, I'm not quite that cynical(sp?) of our system of Gov't...after all, we wouldn't have the lifestyles we have if all politicians were crooked"
You have it because they didnt get cought and their buddy-buddies cover for 'em. :)
BTW, its not the system of govt. The system controls and regulates them politicians. But its the slyest liar that learns to avoid, twist and bypass those controls in *legal* ways.
Wasnt it Bush that said he was anti-tobacco on his campaign..and he owns a huge tobacco plantation? Wee willy...
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38, see my post above, last paragraph.
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Originally posted by 10Bears:
taken from Bartcop,
When Bill Clinton was president, we had peace.
When Bill Clinton was president, Greenspan had to constantly apply the brakes
to the economy because it was white hot with a smart president working full-time.
When Bill Clinton was president, the stock market tripled.
When Bill Clinton was president, all we argued about was how to spend the Clinton surplus.
When Bill Clinton was president, we still had a Bill of Rights.
When Bill Clinton was president, a citizen's vote counted for sometime.
When Bill Clinton was president, New York was intact and swaggering.
When Bill Clinton was president, the First Lady didn't wear a Taliban muzzle.
When Bill Clinton was president, people smiled when they thought about the future.
When Bill Clinton was president, criminal trials were open to the public
When Bill Clinton was president, we worried about his sex life, instead of whether or not
the president's evil crime family bungled us into a big-ass war like his crooked father did ten years ago..
...but then that thieving son of a squeak stole power, with the help of a potato court.
heheh thought you'd like that
10Bears
ah, nevermind...
if you really believe half this crap, you are hopeless.
one note, the economy upswing started in the late 80's (right after we crushed Japan - financially), the perv willie was just in the right place at the right time - Elmer Fudd couldn't have held it down but maybe he could have controlled the bubble that is bursting all around us now better. But slick like the distraction as everyone had their heads in their wallets, letting everything else go - including a responsible gov.
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So many inaccuracies in that too 10bears, LOL, where does one begin?
go for it
Peace with clinton? Want to tell that to the Bosnians?
Ok lets ask them Hey Bosnians, wheres Slobo?
Or Somolia? Bushdaddy put troops in there, Clinton pulled em out
Or Sudan? Did we get hit with chemical weapons?
the list goes on!~
Indeed..
I could tear that apart,
Tear this apart; Did the stock market triple?
Did he build 5,000 new public schools? Did he put (close to) 100,000 new cops on the street?
Was crime and abortion the lowest in thirty years?
True or false; Was there more new home buyers then at any time in American history?
but I have neither the time, nor the patience, to train ignorance.
Yep must be tough for you and Newsmax, Rush, and Fox news to train ignorance.... especially educated Americans.
Hey Rip you know bills of attainders are illegal. You can't make a law against one person. Try and bring a civil suit to Geroge Bush and see what happens.
You don't think the whole Paula Jones thing was even a tad political? If not, why were there no questions about Paula Jones during the testimony?
(not you personally, 10bears, just ignorance globally)
Ah thats swell boss thx
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Of course the scientists may discover the workings of the brain some day and find a way to ensure minimum IQ of 115 for the whole population - then things can become different.
miko
lol - another static forecast against a dynamic system.
all they'd do then is raise the iq bar a few points and make everything harder. people group naturally and there would have to be a way to seperate the mental haves from the mental have-nots
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I am not a big fan of sanctions, think about it Saddam is a dictator, the UN says we must restrict food, equipment, etc. going to Iraq.
Now the question is..Do you think Saddam is starving NOPE, do you think Saddam cares if his people are starving NOPE. Hence he stays in power.
If you want a dictator to be romoved from power you have to hurt him personally in some way. Way back when we attacked Libia we hit Omar's home..killed some of his family (not saying this is a good thing to do) but we havent heard toejam from him in 15 years.
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10Bears
OK did the stock market start to crumble near the end of his term...YES
Did he lie to the American people on TV...YES
Did he lie under oath...YES
Did he make very questionable pardons...HELL YES
And if the FBI has it right 9-11 was planned during Clinton presidency (also not Clintons fault IMO)
Is he a good Politician...YES (nothing to be proud of)
As far as the economy goes the president has no more effect on it than I do. (I truly believe that's the American people, some Congress and some Greenspan)
As far as Bush Sr. and Saddam I agree he should have been taken out but it wasn't really the USA's call had to worry about the UN and keeping the Coalition together.
[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: narsus ]
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When Bill Clinton was president, all we argued about was how to spend the Clinton surplus.
Oh, you mean when we were over taxed and we argued over how to spend our money?
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I really don't have time for this and I know it's a waste of time but...
[QB]Originally posted by 10Bears:
[QB]
When Bill Clinton was president, we had peace.
Piece of bellybutton is all you can say about peace in the Clinton years. 6 years of yugoslavia, somalia - clinton changed bush's orders, then didn't give the military the resourses they needed, then pulled out when we got our noses bloodied, leaving the terrorist of the world to believe that we are a bunch of collective rutabagas. This stuff is just the tip of the iceberg.
When Bill Clinton was president, Greenspan had to constantly apply the brakes to the economy because it was white hot with a smart president working full-time.
First off, who hired Greenspan? I'll give willy credit for keeping him but that's it. The economy came back while Bush was still in office that's a fact go ahead and try and prove it wrong.
When Bill Clinton was president, the stock market tripled.
see the above paragraph...
When Bill Clinton was president, all we argued about was how to spend the Clinton surplus. WRONG!!!! if there's any surplus it's due mainly to a Republican congress heheheh I bet that just burns you up too :) You may not be able to remember 92-94 when the democrats controlled both houses still. heheheh funny how those were the last years of defecit spending. The Republicans take congress away from tax -n- spend demos and whala! first ballanced budget in 30 yrs! I bet you just HATE that too :)
When Bill Clinton was president, we still had a Bill of Rights.
Unless you happen to be a member of the Randy Weaver family or if you happened to live in Waco with the Branch Davidians. Or if you're name was Elian Gonzalez. Or Linda Tripp or Paula Jones or Monica Lewinski the list goes on and on.
When Bill Clinton was president, a citizen's vote counted for sometime.
yeah and for sometime after they died too! hell some even counted twice.
When Bill Clinton was president, New York was intact and swaggering.
huh? can we say Guliani? NY looks alot better off now than it was 10 yrs ago. Even after sept 11.
When Bill Clinton was president, the First Lady didn't wear a Taliban muzzle.
Dude where were you in the 90's? We didn't hear squat for her for about 2 years after she unsuccessfuly tried to take over 1/7th of our economy. Anytime she'd open her mouth willy would slip in the polls so he kept her "muzzled". She also never gave the presidential radio address like Mrs. Bush did a couple of weekends ago. ;)
When Bill Clinton was president, people smiled when they thought about the future.
Only the ones like yourself who are too blind to see what was really happening. Alot of us saw this whole mess coming back in about 95 or even sooner.
When Bill Clinton was president, criminal trials were open to the public
OJ
When Bill Clinton was president, we worried about his sex life, instead of whether or not the president's evil crime family bungled us into a big-ass war like his crooked father did ten years ago..
You talking about JFK? I can remember Sadaam "bungling" us into a big war. I can also remember Clinton letting him get by with kicking out the UN weapons inspectors about 2 or 3 yrs ago. I can remember another "war" with Iraq starting not 5 min before is impeachment hearings in the house, and the same war ending the same day his sorry bellybutton was impeached, if I remember correctly about 10 min after. I can remember bombings on the day that lewinski apeared before the grand jury.
...but then that thieving son of a squeak stole power, with the help of a potato court.
So what are you going to do about it? Start a revolution? Do you believe in the rule of law? I bet not if you liked clinton. The law to clinton was more of an obsticle to go around than the foundation of our society.
I don't know whether to laugh at you or feel sorry for you. I also don't know why I wasted my time with you either, but your stupid post must be corrected. I wish I had more time to be more thorough but I'm at work and have to log now.
Toad could you please step in and help a brother out :)
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Bill Clinton is a poor excuse for a man, much less a good president.
To be left or right has nothing to do with it...if you look up to Clinton, then you need to get up off your arse and open your eyes.
JFK was left politically and got more tail in office than Clinton could ever have hoped for. At least I could respect his vision and the love he had for this nation...Clinton just used us and some of you liked it!
I never got worked up over Clinton until September 11th...I had this vision of him getting a blow job while talking to a congressman and I got angry...real angry.
We trusted him to do his job and to defend this nation which he swore to do...what we got were 8 years of embarrassment and 4000+ innocent people killed.
What kind of person can admire or respect such a punk?
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Originally posted by Rude:
Bill Clinton is a poor excuse for a man, much less a good president.
To be left or right has nothing to do with it...if you look up to Clinton, then you need to get up off your arse and open your eyes.
JFK was left politically and got more tail in office than Clinton could ever have hoped for. At least I could respect his vision and the love he had for this nation...Clinton just used us and some of you liked it!
I never got worked up over Clinton until September 11th...I had this vision of him getting a blow job while talking to a congressman and I got angry...real angry.
We trusted him to do his job and to defend this nation which he swore to do...what we got were 8 years of embarrassment and 4000+ innocent people killed.
What kind of person can admire or respect such a punk?
Makes ya wonder doesn't it Rude? There are defenately some idiots out there, just sad to see so many of them in our nation...
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Maybe irrelevant but.......Clinton may be the greatest Politician that ever lived! Who else could maintain a 60% approval rating while going through an Impeachment? Awesome.
The actions taken on September 11th are a direct result of one man's skewed thought process after we based troops and supplies in Saudi Arabia. Bill Clinton did not screw up Bin Ladin's mind.
The GOP has been trying like hell to sink Clinton since before he was elected in 1992 (Jenifer Flowers). The witch hunt did not stop even after he left. Try to think of any other President in history who could stand up to the same level of scrutiny Bill Clinton endured. Less than a handful would fare as well IMHO.
The Reagan Prosperity was due to a Republican President and the Clinton Prosperity was due to a Republican Congress? Hmmmmmmmm?
Clinton was a fool to do what he did. But he was hardly the antichrist portrayed in some posts I've read here. Get over it already!
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Originally posted by Rude:
We trusted him to do his job and to defend this nation which he swore to do...what we got were 8 years of embarrassment and 4000+ innocent people killed.
What kind of person can admire or respect such a punk?
The buck stops here (http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/oval-office.html). Let's see... if I read correctly, all of Clinton's successes should be credited to the previous Republican presidency while all of the blame for the current state of affairs goes to the previous Democratic presidency, Clinton. To sum it all up, you don't like Clinton.
Get over it. Stop listening to Rush and accept the fact that Clinton is gone but he didn't get impeached. He pardoned some people that probably didn't deserve it. Also accept the fact that more people liked Clinton in the office than didn't and that your man, Dubya did not attain the popular vote even against such a wooden candidate as Gore.
We've opened Envelope #1 and blamed the predecessor. We've opened Envelope #2 and Rumsfield is (or was) busily working on the reorganization. I don't like Bush, but it's a little early in the game to be looking at Envelope #3. It's his show right now. All blame and all credit belongs in the oval office right now. If the current administration doesn't like the heat, get out of the kitchen. They knew the stakes before they started playing the game.
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I feel that Clinton and Bush (either of them) are both equally worthless.
IMO there hasn't been a good strong US president since Truman.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Tah Gut:
Maybe irrelevant but.......Clinton may be the greatest Politician that ever lived! Who else could maintain a 60% approval rating while going through an Impeachment? Awesome.
Really it's more sad than awesome, it doesn't speak well for our nation.
The actions taken on September 11th are a direct result of one man's skewed thought process after we based troops and supplies in Saudi Arabia. Bill Clinton did not screw up Bin Ladin's mind.
I have no argument with this. bin laden is crazy all on his own.
The GOP has been trying like hell to sink Clinton since before he was elected in 1992 (Jenifer Flowers). The witch hunt did not stop even after he left. Try to think of any other President in history who could stand up to the same level of scrutiny Bill Clinton endured. Less than a handful would fare as well IMHO.
More like the only president in history to have as many blind eyes turned to his immorality and selfishness.
The Reagan Prosperity was due to a Republican President and the Clinton Prosperity was due to a Republican Congress? Hmmmmmmmm?
No the prosperity in this country is caused by the people who work and make it happen. The people who take risks and the people who wake up everday and work all day. Washington does nothing but stiffle it and take away from it and doesn't do the job it is supposed to do, both parties. The government can and sometimes does also help by lowering taxes and removing restrictions/regulations, but how often does that happen?
Reagan and the Republicans of the mid 90's did their best to stop the democrats from crippling the economy with more taxes and regulations (regulations translates into more taxes most of the time). Which paved the way for the risk taking and investment of the 90's hehe they say there is no such thing as trickle down economics. Well watch it work in reverse now :)
Clinton was a fool to do what he did. But he was hardly the antichrist portrayed in some posts I've read here. Get over it already!
I got over it the day he left office, though we'll be paying for it for years I fear, the slowdown started in his last year in office so the blame for this recession is his. He did nothing to stop it, not that he could have done any thing to stop the cycle but he didn't even make an attempt or give it any lip service. Why should he give a toejam anyway he's set up for life his economy won't slow down.
The way he left office made my day and was purely typical Clinton in his natural state. History will know what a self serving person he is. As far as I can tell the only person on this Earth that he worries about is himself.
As the leader of our nation and military for the last 8 years he does deserve a good portion of the blame for our current situation. You can try and skip a president or 2 back and blame Reagan and Bush. It's fine by me if you want to live in a world of falsehoods and myths. The world respected us then and 8 years later they don't. Bush hasn't been in office for a year and people try to blame him. That's about the funniest and strangest thing I've ever heard. I don't understand how some people can be so ignorant.
But like I said at the beginning of the thread, there's plenty of blame to go around. I'm willing to take my part of the blame and to blame the Republicans for thier part, why won't some of you Democrats do the same? I mean after all you guys are supposed to be the "enlightened" ones right? and us souuthern chromisone missing christian bigots are the neanderthal nazis right?
I think I could go on forever, but dinner is ready :) see yall tomarow!
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Oh good christ..
What a buncha gawdamned sanctimonious hypocrites..
We speak of DEMOCRACY in hushed tones.. yet we pay it not one lil bit of respect.
The dolts in the white house (past and present) are the ones OUR DEMOCRACY installs there.
The last one was there eight years.. and I have to accept the fact that the majority of you hypocrites posting here voted for him, or else assume that the flight sim population demographic is overwhelmingly populated by rabid republicans....
Obviously, more than a few rational republicans must be around... because unless THEY voted for clinton he wouldn't have been in office EIGHT YEARS. The majority of voters in this country ARE republicans, remember?
How you guys find your tulips with the hugahunk amazes the hell outta me sometimes.
You wanna solve the problems of the world?? put the same energy you WASTE on pointing BACKWARDS at the time-line and get with the program of influencing TODAYS politicans on TODAYS issues.
CLUE!!!!!!! Americans are being held captive by Phillipino Terrorists... HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE WRITTEN YOUR CONGRESSMAN ABOUT THAT?
Do I need to write up a full list?
Are we all lemmings? Or eight years old?
What started out was a reasoned soul search for 'what ails us, why we can't learn from history?' degenerates in 10 posts to:
"Clintons fault"
"no, it's not"
"was too"
"was not"
"to"
"not"
"bllllrrsssph"
"diddly you too"
Boneheads. No wonder the world thinks we a bunch of idiots. We obviously are.
Udie.. some famous dead guy once said "those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Here we go again.... :)
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hehe that's why I titled the thread the blame game! Everybody get's a turn hehe :D
Like I said I blame all of us. The rest is subjective and always up to interpritation no matter how much any of us think or know our point is 100% right. I know I'm right, but I also know that I'm only one of 6 billion realities on this planet.
Just so you know, I voted for perot and didn't vote in 96. I was to let down by Dole's campain and didnt go do my duty. I due believe that Clinton owes Perot bigtime. He split the conservative vote in 92 and 96.
oops i digress...
[edit]
I must add that from day to day I begin to understand a bit more that both parties have played us all for fools for years. Maybe I'm just getting synical as I get older, but I don't trust any of them anymore. And yes I do worry about what liberties we have already lost and will lose because of 9-11.
[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: Udie ]
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"How you guys find your tulips with the hugahunk amazes the hell outta me sometimes"--Hangtime
LOLOLOL!! Damn Hang, you messed up a perfectly good pissin' contest.
[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: 10Bears ]
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"The last one was there eight years.. and I have to accept the fact that the majority of you hypocrites posting here voted for him, or else assume that the flight sim population demographic is overwhelmingly populated by rabid republicans...."
this republican flight simmer didn't - either time.
how bout you hang?? If you did, please lie and tell me you didn't :)
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10bears, if you truly believe Clinton was responsible for fiscal growth (And tax increases I might add) then you need to take an economics class in college. The Technology boom was the primary reason for growth, followed by Global growth which boosted our economy as well.
LOL, I crack up everytime someone says "Well, with clinton, our economy boomed!"..hehehehehe! Ya, he was in office, but you could have put a monkey in office, and the monkey would have got credit too!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
.. you could have put a monkey in office, and the monkey would have got credit too!
they did, and some do :)
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This monkey voted for Clinton twice. I suspect that were the laws different in this country, he would have easily beat Gore and Dubya in the last election.
Hang states that the majority of Americans are Republican. I rather doubt it, but I'm certain that the majority of Americans were happy with the presidency of Clinton. His approval ratings certainly seemed to indicate it. Like it or not, that's democracy.
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You know I really can't seem to remember him winnin an election with more than about 42% of the vote. I don't remember his overall oproval rating ever getting over 50% either, it was always at 44 or 45. The man was lucky people were more worried about thier pocket books than thier country...
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I spoke not to the issues of politics, but the character of Bill Clinton.
Who here believes this man to be of character and subtance, honest and dedicated to our country and it's citizens during his presidency? Who is proud of him?
Speak up and be counted!
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I find it very odd we do not hold our "elected" officials to the same standards & expectations that stockholders hold officers of major corporations...
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Here's some food for thought:
mmmmmmm clinton promised
After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured
1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
down and punished.
After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
punished.
After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and
injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible
would be hunted down and punished.
After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and
injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.
After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S.
sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
punished.
Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 5,000 people in New York
and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be Alive today.
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And since we're on the subject...
There are two men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap
software and gives billions of dollars to charity. The other sponsors
terrorism. That being the case, why is it that the Clinton Administration
spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the past eight years than
Osama bin Laden?
THINK ABOUT IT!
It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her forthcoming
memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be written. This
from two people who have spent the past 8 years being unable to recall
anything about past events while under oath!
Incredible!
THINK ABOUT IT!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
And since we're on the subject...
There are two men, both extremely wealthy. One develops relatively cheap
software and gives billions of dollars to charity. The other sponsors
terrorism. That being the case, why is it that the Clinton Administration
spent more money chasing down Bill Gates over the past eight years than
Osama bin Laden?
THINK ABOUT IT!
It is a strange turn of events. Hillary gets $8 Million for her forthcoming
memoir. Bill gets about $12 Million for his memoir yet to be written. This
from two people who have spent the past 8 years being unable to recall
anything about past events while under oath!
Incredible!
THINK ABOUT IT!
Pretty powerful post there Rip. I never thought about the bill gates / bin laden thing like you put it. That kind of pisses me off even more. The book deal is typical clinton crap. I wonder if they'll bother to explain all those "coinsidences" and "silly clerical errors" that they had throughout their administration.
I have faith though that the further out from his time in office we get the more history will view him for the slimeball he is...
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Straight off the Gallup Poll website. Sorry your memory seems to be slipping Udie.
Hope this is legible.
BTW Clinton was elected with 49.2% of the popular vote in 1996. Dole had 40.6%.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the way Bill Clinton is handling his job as president?"
Approve % Disapprove % No opinion %
2001
67 29 5 01 Jan. 10-14
65 31 4 01 Jan 5-7
2000
66 32 2 00 Dec. 15-17
60 35 5 00 Dec. 2-4
63 33 4 00 Nov 13-15
57 38 5 00 Oct 25-28
58 37 5 00 Oct 6-9
60 34 6 00 Sep 11-13
62 35 3 00 Aug 29-Sep 5
62 35 3 00 Aug 18-19
58 39 3 00 Aug 11-12
57 40 3 00 Aug 4-5
57 39 4 00 Jul 25-26
59 37 4 00 Jul 14-16
59 36 5 00 Jul 6-9
55 40 5 00 Jun 22-25
60 36 4 00 Jun 6-7
57 37 6 00 May 18-21
57 36 7 00 May 5-7
59 39 2 00 Apr 28-30
62 34 4 00 Mar 30-Apr 2
56 39 5 00 Mar 17-19
63 34 3 00 Mar 10-12
57 39 4 00 Feb 25-27
62 34 4 00 Feb 14-15
62 33 4 00 Feb 4-6
64 32 4 00 Jan 25-26
62 35 3 00 Jan 17-19
59 37 4 00 Jan 13-16
63 35 2 00 Jan 7-10
1999
57 36 7 99 Dec 20-21
56 41 3 99 Dec 9-12
59 36 5 99 Nov 18-21
58 38 4 99 Nov 4-7
59 36 5 99 Oct 21-24
56 39 5 99 Oct 8-10
59 38 3 99 Sep 23-26
60 38 2 99 Sep 10-14
60 35 5 99 Aug 24-26
59 36 5 99 Aug 16-18
60 35 5 99 Aug 3-4
64 31 5 99 July 22-25
58 38 4 99 July 16-18
59 37 4 99 July 13-14
57 41 2 99 June 25-27
60 37 3 99 June 11-13
60 35 5 99 June 4-5
53 42 5 99 May 23-24
60 35 5 99 May 7-9
60 36 4 99 Apr 30-May 2
60 35 5 99 Apr 26-27
60 36 4 99 Apr 13-14
59 35 6 99 Apr 6-7
64 32 4 99 Mar 30-31
64 33 3 99 Mar 19-21
62 35 3 99 Mar 12-14
68 28 4 99 Mar 5-7
66 31 3 99 Feb 26-28
66 30 4 99 Feb 19-21
68 30 2 99 Feb 12-13
70 27 3 99 Feb 9
65 33 2 99 Feb 4-8
67 31 2 99 Jan 27
69 29 2 99 Jan 22-24
69 29 2 99 Jan 15-17
67 30 3 99 Jan 8-10
63 34 3 99 Jan 6
1998
73 25 2 98 Dec 19-20
63 33 4 98 Dec 15-16
64 34 2 98 Dec 12-13
66 30 4 98 Dec 4-6
66 30 4 98 Nov 20-22
62 36 2 98 Nov 19
66 31 3 98 Nov 13-15
66 30 4 98 Oct.29-Nov 1
65 32 3 Oct 23-25
65 32 3 Oct 9-12
63 34 3 Oct 6-7
66 31 3 Sep 23-24
66 31 3 Sep 21 (*)
60 34 6 Sep 20 (*)
63 35 2 Sep 14-15
63 34 3 Sep 11-12
60 37 3 Sep 10 (*)
62 33 5 Sep 1 (*)
62 35 3 Aug 21-23
61 34 5 Aug 20 (*)
66 29 5 Aug 18 (*)
62 32 6 Aug 17 (*)
65 30 5 Aug 10-12
64 32 4 Aug 7-8
65 31 4 Jul 29(*)
61 34 5 Jul 7-8
60 34 6 Jun 22-23
60 34 6 Jun 5-7
64 31 5 May 8-10
63 31 6 April 17-19
66 28 6 March 20-22
67 29 4 March 16(*)
63 31 6 March 6-9
66 29 5 February 20-22
66 30 4 February 13-15
69 28 3 January 30-February 1
67 28 5 January 28
59 37 4 January 25-26
60 35 5 January 24-25
58 36 6 January 23-24
60 30 10 January 16-18
59 32 9 January 6-7
1997
56 36 8 December 18-21
61 30 9 November 21-23
59 31 10 November 6-9
59 32 9 October 27-29
55 36 9 October 3-5
58 33 9 September 25-28
61 28 11 September 6-7
60 34 6 August 22-25
61 32 7 August 12-13
58 34 8 July 25-27
55 36 9 June 26-29
57 35 8 May 30-June 1
57 35 8 May 6-7
54 37 9 Apr 18-20
59 35 6 Mar 24-26
57 33 10 Feb 24-26
60 31 9 Jan 30-Feb 2
62 31 7 Jan 10-13
58 35 7 Jan 3-5, 1997
1996
58 34 8 Dec 9-11
58 35 7 Nov 21-24
54 36 10 Oct 26-29
57 36 7 Oct 2-3
58 34 8 Oct 1-2
60 31 9 Sep 7-9
60 33 7 Aug 30-Sep 1
53 39 8 Aug 23-25
52 39 9 Aug 16-18
57 36 7 Aug 5-7
58 35 7 Jul 25-28
57 35 8 Jul 18-21
52 42 6 Jun 27-30
58 37 5 Jun 18-19
53 38 9 May 28-29
55 39 6 May 9-12
56 37 7 Apr 25-28
54 40 6 Apr 9-10
52 39 9 Mar 15-17
54 37 9 Mar 8-10
53 40 7 Feb 23-25
52 42 6 Jan 26-29
46 47 7 Jan 12-15
42 49 9 Jan 5-7
1995
51 44 5 Dec 15-18
53 38 9 Nov 17-18
52 41 7 Nov 6-8
49 40 11 Oct 19-22
46 42 12 Oct 5-7
48 44 8 Sep 22-24
44 44 12 Sep 14-17
46 43 11 Aug 28-30
46 42 12 Aug 4-7
46 44 10 Jul 20-23
48 42 10 Jul 7-9
47 42 11 Jun 5-6
51 42 7 May 11-14
51 39 10 Apr 21-24
46 45 9 Apr 17-19
47 45 8 Apr 5-6
44 47 9 Mar 27-29
46 45 9 Mar 17-19
42 48 10 Feb 24-26
49 44 7 Feb 3-5
47 45 8 Jan 16-18
1994
40 52 8 Dec 28-30
42 53 5 Dec 16-18
42 50 8 Dec 2-5
43 49 8 Nov 28-29
46 46 8 Nov 2-6
48 46 6 Oct 22-25
41 52 7 Oct 18-19
42 52 6 Oct 7-9
44 51 5 Sep 23-25
42 50 8 Sep 16-18
39 54 7 Sep 6-7
39 52 9 Aug 15-16
43 48 9 Aug 8-9
42 49 9 Jul 15-17
43 48 9 Jul 1-3
44 47 8 Jun 25-28
49 44 7 Jun 11-12
46 47 7 Jun 3-6
51 42 7 May 20-22
48 44 8 Apr 22-24
51 41 8 Apr 16-18
52 41 7 Mar 25-27
50 41 9 Mar 11-13
50 42 8 Mar 7-8
53 41 6 Feb 26-28
58 35 7 Jan 28-30
54 38 8 Jan 15-17
54 38 8 Jan 6-8
1993
54 40 6 Dec 17-19
52 38 10 Dec 4-6
48 43 9 Nov 19-21
50 43 7 Nov 15-16
48 45 7 Nov 2-4
48 45 7 Oct 28-30
47 44 9 Oct 13-18
50 42 8 Oct 8-10
56 36 8 Sep 24-26
46 43 11 Sep 13-15
47 42 11 Sep 10-12
44 47 9 Aug 23-25
44 48 8 Aug 8-10
41 49 10 Jul 19-21
45 48 7 Jul 9-11
46 47 7 Jun 29-30
39 50 11 Jun 18-21
37 49 14 Jun 5-6
44 46 10 May 21-23
45 44 11 May 10-11
55 37 8 Apr 22-24
52 37 11 Mar 29-31
53 34 13 Mar 12-14
59 29 12 Feb 26-28
51 34 15 Feb 12-14
54 30 16 Jan 29-31
58 20 22 Jan 24-26
Sorry for the long-ass post.
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Clinton won in 1992 by only a slim margin, I believe it was 42%, lowest ever in the history of the US (Thanks all you 3rd party voters! Arrgh!)
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nevermind
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10bears, if you truly believe Clinton was responsible for fiscal growth (And tax increases I might add) then you need to take an economics class in college. The Technology boom was the primary reason for growth, followed by Global growth which boosted our economy as well.
Or I could listen to Paul Volker and Allen Grenspan who did take an economics class in collage they both accredited the boom to the economic stimulus package of 1993 coupled with the campaign promise to balance the budget which would lower interest rates enough to offset the raise in taxes for the people affected.. These are folks who earn $150,000 or more a year. I don’t have the congressional voting records here, could you remind me how many Republicans voted for the economic stimulus package?
LOL, I crack up everytime someone says "Well, with clinton, our economy boomed!"..hehehehehe! Ya, he was in office, but you could have put a monkey in office, and the monkey would have got credit too!
Normally the President gets credit or blame for the economy well you’ve heard of the “Clinton Rules” anything bad happens its Clinton’s fault, anything good, must be Reagan or Bush. As for the monkey, we did put Bonzo’s co-star in charge and he ran up the deficit to three trillion dollars! The lesson: Don’t let monkeys use credit cards.
After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, which killed six and injured
1,000; President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted
down and punished.
You can go a visit these guys in prison if you want.. they all got life sentences.
After the 1994 OKC bombing Clinton promised to hunt down those responsible and punish.
Well Tim McVey, from the local talaban, I would say, is most certainly punished.
After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military
personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
punished.
After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and
injured 200 U.S. military personnel; Clinton promised that those responsible
would be hunted down and punished.
These guys were hunted down.. Getting your head wacked off by a sword ain’t exactly a slap on the wrist.
After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, which killed 224 and
injured 5,000; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down
and punished.
Cruise missiles take a couple of hours to reach their target. Could Ossama have been tipped off?
The President authorized 6 billion for the anti terrorism task force. He also hatched a plan to kill Ossama using Pakistani agents. That plan was nixed due to the overthrow of an elected government by the military.
Year 2000 Millennium bombers caught
Year 2000 Philippines Embassy bombers --caught
3 other terrorist attempts were found out about and stopped.
After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 U.S.
sailors; Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and
punished.
We know now Ossama’s boys did this, he said so during his interview.
Maybe if Clinton had kept his promise, an estimated 5,000 people in New York
and Washington, D.C. that are now dead would be Alive today.
Or...
Maybe if the National Security Council and the CIA had done their jobs and listened to 3 different intelligence agencies that an attack was imminent, might have saved the 3,700 people.
You and Rude claiming that Clinton was somehow responsible with the WTC attack is insane! That would be like me saying the CIA, pissed off about the Bay of Pigs, pulling out of advisers in Viet Nam, the upcoming Civil Rights vote... had something to do with the murder of JFK, using the classic hub-spoke conspiracy. The hub.. only a few people who know, and the spokes people who don’t know but work for the hub.
I wouldn’t say that because I believe in the Warren Commission report. No problem shooting a moving target 3 times at 250 feet.
Anyway I’ve got to run errands today and probably won’t be able to make it back by 4pm for the Mag-33 meeting. Also a preset tomorrow (same as last few weeks) and won’t be able to attend the TOD.
Best to you and your family.
10Bears--