Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TexMurphy on June 14, 2005, 03:15:29 AM
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One thing Ive failed to understand is how some pilots manage to reverse at me with me so tight on their six. Before Ive always needed about 2k to reverse on a enemy that is on my six and get a merge with him.
Ive seen great pilots like Greebo in his F6F do extreamly tight reverses on me and Ive failed to understand how he can do so tight manouvers.
Ive grasped the concept of combining vertical and horizontal movement in my manouvers but something was missing.
Yesterday it hit me.
3 axis not just 2.
Something Ive not been paying much attention to is "depth". Where is the exit point of my manouver compared to the entry point vertically, horizontally and depth wise.
If Im to reverse on a enemy that is on my six and the exit point is ahead of the entry point (in the direction of my original heading) I will buy my self time, if its behind the entry point I will need to complete the manouver faster.
(http://www.riha-games.com/ah/ACM/reverse.jpg)
compared to
(http://www.riha-games.com/ah/ACM/immelman.jpg)
Both manouvers are done very sloppy but its just to show my point.
Assuming the displacement in depth takes 3 seconds to fly for the enemy the first manouver will "appear" to take 8 sec and the immelman 21 sec. Which makes a huge difference in distance needed between your self and enemy to get the merge.
I know most of you guys propably know this but hey Im slow.. ;)
Tex
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Tex..... Could you explain that a little more in depth?
I see the pics but not sure about enty point, exit point and all that your saying there.
I always wonder the same thing as you and maybe you can explain it so I understand.
Thanks
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he's talkin' about rolling the plane to change your planes vector i think. 2nd pick appears to be just an up/over immelman type move. The 1st pick he "rolls" the plane, and achieves a reverse in much less time. AND, he's 100% correct.
look at the pick, and follow the planes twists, twisting your hand as you do it. (airplanes on the end o' sticks works better than hands if avail.)
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at the top just as you roll over hit the flaps (depending on plane) and you'll dive right onto them . :D
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Ok Ill try to explain.
Entry point
The point where you start your manouver. On all three axis.
Depth == Z axis == direction of heading, Horizontal == X axis == left right, Vertically == Y axis == altitude.
Exit point
The point where you exit your manouver. On all three axis.
For example a loop has the entry point and exit point roughly at the same spot. You end up where you start your manouver, right?
A Immelman usually has its exit point right above the entry point. Displacement on the Y axis.
A High YoYo has the exit point directly left or right of the entry point. Displacement on the X axis.
A Barrell roll has its exit point directly ahead of the entry point. Displacement on the Z axis.
Follow me so far?
In the case when you have a enemy at your six and you want to reverse so that you can merge on him you want to make a manouver that has its exit point at the same altitude as the entry point, actually slightly below.
Say that you immel over then you will have to dive inorder to be able to merge, right?
So in this case your reverse manouver will be immelman + dive. So since the exit point of the immel man is above the entry point and you dive after that the exit point of the full reverse manouver will be displaced towards the enemy. Meaning displaced back on the Z axis from your original heading. You see that well in picture 2.
This also means that you close the distance between your self and the enemy before your manouver is complete.
The manouver in the first picture is a barrell roll that I pull into a split s when Im at the top of the barrell.
Im down the Z axis along my original flight path through out more then 75% of the manouver. Its only when Im facing straight down in the Split S part that I stop moving in the direction of my original flight.
Compare it to the Immelman based reverse where Im only heading forward untill Im facing straight up, about 25% of the time.
For the enemy the manouver in the first picture will look like a very very tight high yoyo because depth perception is quite hard in the game. Seeing the forward movement is much harder then
the horizontal and/or vertical movement.
I hope this explains it a bit more.
Tex
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Ha, thank you. I always had the same problem your explanation is logical and will help me.
Basic is you turn the plane while still moving in the same direcion as he is... so seem not to move for him but still turn around.
The reversal is basically a loop with a half roll in it?
If you are on top and see that you can make it behind him you can put a complete roll in it and end up behind him in the same direction as before?
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Well not really but almost.
The manouver starts out as a barrellroll. In the picture its a clockwise barrellroll. So I start it with a slight turn left then pull up and back right, this way and with use of rudder and flaps I strech it vertically. You want to create enough room for your self to make a Split-S without blacking out or hitting the ground.
Once you are at the top of the barrell roll you pull directly back. Since your nose is pointing diagonally across the path of your movement when you are at the top of the barrell roll you have to adjust with some roll and a slight turn in the split S to get back "on track".
Yes ofcourse if he is comming in fast just the barrell roll it self can create a overshoot. But this manouver is if you have a enemy slowly closing on your six and is within 1.0-2.0k. Immelman and/or High YoYo take too much time and cant be completed at this range High YoYo can be made with enemy closer to you then Immel as the high yoyo has its entry point and exit point at the same position on the Z axis.
Tex
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So where is your throttle through all this? I presume you back it off since you are trying to get the enemy to overshoot.
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tex, there are ways to reverse even quicker i think, (never timed them), and they look like you never turn much form a distance.
try doing a severe low yoyo type thing, with 100% rudder applied in the direction of the turn, and "swing" the plane, nose under and back up
take your right hand, and put it eye level and level, pointing at your face....
using only wrist movement swing your hand down and make it point away from you.
thats kind of what im trying to explain. in a 190 or 109 even you can reverse really quickly. though you will have lost at least 50% of your E, you will be facing the enemy comming up on you.
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@Tillie38
Well that depends on if your trying to make the enemy overshoot or not. But if your trying for that then you dont really wana cut back underneath your self do you. If you wana make the overshoot then just make a really wide low speed barrell roll.
What Im trying to illustrate here is how to make a reverse so you can merge with him.
If you slow it down he will catch up with you so you actually want to keep your forward (direction of original heading) momentum going as much as you can.
But again to cut the manouver tight you have to throttle down. I dont do that till Im inverted. Then I cut the throttle so I dont smack the ground.
@JB73
There is the ever lasting dillema. E vs tight manouvers. Im pretty sure that what you describe is very doable in a Jug as well (my main ride). But in a jug I really dont wana give up all that E.
This manouver when flown in a F4U-1 (which I did when I filmed it) dropped my speed from 310 to about 250-260 and put me 100 feet below my entry point altitude. Which gives me plenty of E to Immelman after the merge to get in on his six.
Tex
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I gotcha Tex. You are speaking of a quick way around to face the oncoming con not really to make him overshoot.
It's all coming together now. :D
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Originally posted by Tillie38
I gotcha Tex. You are speaking of a quick way around to face the oncoming con not really to make him overshoot.
It's all coming together now. :D
Yepp.. ;)
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This is funny. I was talking to someone in the MA the other night about Vector Rolls and as I tried to explain it I realized I hadnt actually done one in years. Gotten lazy. Then I realized I couldnt even remember the right combination to pull it off. Tried it over and over, but I kept stalling out. I forgot that speed was the key.
I used to use it all the time to catch a con that would do a hard break turn when I was diving on them in a plane like a FW or F4U that has a good roll rate at speed. It lets you keep most of the speed from your dive, and still cut around his turn circle to get a chance at a 6 shot. Looking at your first pic helped bring it back for me.
Thanks! :)
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I use the JB73 method often when base defending. If I get up without being vulched, I'm trying to gain speed and alt like mad. If a con shows intrest in my six, I'll push the stick forward, full rudder, roll a tight low yo yo and come up under the approching con. I exchange the alt for E and angle hoping the con will try to turn with me and provide a snapshot opportunity.
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Hmmm still confused, could anyone please make a ahf capture?
Reagrds!
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very good explanation Tex.
JB73's point is also correct, 109 and spit pilots love the rudder reverse. They are not so worried about loosing some E since they can build it up very fast.
Bozon
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The trick with the hand has helped :o
My slow brain has it too now..
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me head hurts....
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I think I got it!
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used it on a hurri in my 190D tonight, worked great, i missed gthe shot, but i wish i had film running.
though i'd like to learn more about this "vector roll" or whatever
i'll film one in the next few days and post my "flip" thing
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Awesome! :aok
Thanks JB73!
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Tryed it last night,Still not working for me,takeing to long to get turned around and when I do get turned around(+ flaps) I am faced with a HO or I pull to the right or left and the HOer shots me
.
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I'm really not quite sure what tex thinks he sees in these maneuvers. The only point of these moves is to control your E state to gain a slight turn advantage. There's no magic shorter path to turning 180, and asside from slight rolls you're probably making yourself take longer with some of your moves.
What you do need to be aware of, however, is your energy state. The slower a plane is the faster it can turn that 180 as the G force expierienced is directly reated to speed. Consider standing up and spinning around in circles vs trying to do a U turn on the freeway at 60 w/o letting the wheels loose. High yo-yos and immelmans convert kinetic energy (speed) into potential energy (altitude), and the lower speed allows you to turn faster. On the flip side if your plane is going too slow to really turn fast on account of inadequate lift/power, a low yo-yo or split-s will allow for a quicker turn.
So where do those overly complex rolls during the turn come in? Each plane has a speed where it's just turning it's best. If it gains any more speed the pilot would have to let up to avoid a blackout. If it loses any more speed it stops pulling as many G and the pilot isn't even blacking out a little. If you roll from a flat turn you'll either move into a high or low yoyo. When I merge I typically start with a high yoyo to bleed speed down to find my best turn, then roll a little bit to start converting my high yoyo into a slightly low one where I can hold that corner speed. Thus my plane turns around as fast as possible.
-p.
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Oh, reread the first post. Looks like Tex is starting to discover the energy egg.
Anyway, slower also equals a smaller turn radius.
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Lol pellik.
I was going like... ummm what is he talkin about am I that bad at explaining what I mean... then I read the second post..
Anyways its not about reversing faster. Its about creating room for a reverse.
The problem with that is the fact that the slower you fly the tighter you reverse but at the same time the slower you fly the faster the enemy catches up.
Tex
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Energy egg?
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I'm not entirely sure this concept of "creating room" for your reversal is valid. It seems to me that what you are really doing here is delaying your reversal (assuming the average case, where both planes are moving at the same speed). Regardless of whether you do a barrel roll, or just a regular roll, you end up inverted, and only at that point can you start to reverse. The only thing the barrel roll potentially accomplishes (edited) over the regular roll, is to slow you down to the best speed for your turn.
(All this is assuming that you are not additionally taking advantage of transient, out-of-control behavior of a specific aircraft, which conceivably could be used to change the velocity vector more quickly than when in normal controlled flight).
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moved to a new thread.
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TDeacon.
Lets take a few steps back.
What is it that im trying to acomplish?
I have a con at my six. He is slowly closing and I cant out run him. Im at the deck.
I want to reverse so that Im facing him and Im co alt with him so that I can merge with him.
If I flat turn I will give up a lead turn shot.
If I do a high YoYO he will get a lead turn shot in the yoyo as its just a tilted turn.
If I immelman he will get a "lead turn shot" in the veritcal. Even if he doesnt get it I will not be able to get into the position where Im facing him at co alt and can merge with him. He is too close.
High YoYo is the best of options of these manouvers, still not good enough.
The sudgested tail slide low yoyo does give you a possible solution but imho you waste too much E.
The entire point of my discussion is trying to decide where you wana be when you exit the manouver. Then figure out how to get there in the right moment.
If you in the given situaiton wana just roll and do a split s. please be my guest... ;) But you will slam the ground as you dont have the room under you. with the barrell roll you do create the vertical room for your self. plus the fact that even if you have the room and you wana exit your manouver co alt with your enemy then you need to do a vertical move. if you roll and split S then you need to climb up to the enemy. So it really doesnt help you at all.
Tex
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Tex... you're still a newb. ;)
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Originally posted by Engine
Tex... you're still a newb. ;)
At least I do fly.... ;)
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If i have delayed my merge so that the guy is closing 1000-800k, rolling scissors might be a better option as you are able to dump your energy sooner than him( i am a noob so beat me up)
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If you go back aways I've posted a bunch of tight reversal clips...usually in the 600-1000 range vs a bunch of stuff. Now if you broke it down most of it is a rev into a neg E state angles merge initiated thru offering a low % shot window (and yes you do get nailed some). The "shot" is the bait that creates the fight that the other guy cant win (unless he flat beats you pilot to pilot) since you have "Set the deck" once he pulls for the shot you either get a good semi snap shot or you lock him into an angles fight in which he is both postive E and "negative" angles...a bad combination...
Where I'm going with this is simple...the variables are "con dependent" & goal dependent. I never reverse to evade I reverse to engage...thats why I tend to let them in so close...for my tactics to succeed the other guy needs to be focused on the shot. To me an overshoot move is a bit different and I'm not as good at it...but if I can get the con to bite on my reversal he's much more locked in to a fight.
Your thoughts are right on in my mind but specific to your goals and the other planes specifics...
To me a good reversal is "preset" with an earlier move (95% of time) has an initial "high element" (banking what E you can){even in tight}...followed by the "under" which is the key to a great reversal....the con either "denies" the reversal or goes for the shot and you go from there....I tend to be off gas from initiation till I know I've established both shot denial and angular advantage...
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
This is funny. I was talking to someone in the MA the other night about Vector Rolls and as I tried to explain it I realized I hadnt actually done one in years. Gotten lazy. Then I realized I couldnt even remember the right combination to pull it off. Tried it over and over, but I kept stalling out. I forgot that speed was the key.
I used to use it all the time to catch a con that would do a hard break turn when I was diving on them in a plane like a FW or F4U that has a good roll rate at speed. It lets you keep most of the speed from your dive, and still cut around his turn circle to get a chance at a 6 shot. Looking at your first pic helped bring it back for me.
Thanks! :)
Vector roll is pretty simple...where folks get hung up is your rolling away from the other guys turn till your "pointed" at the elbow of his turn then pulling thru for the shot.
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Why merge? (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=35)
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humble.
Yes I do use pre determined manouverse that fake the enemy into going for a shot and then I pop out of his sights and reverse in on his six as well. If he overcommits Im right in gun solution.
But most of my manouvers depend on him having quite a bit more speed then me. Maybe its just me not flying them well enough to be able to push it more co-e.
But I agree with you reverse is always to engage never to evade.
Tex
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Just point your wing at the enemy when hes about d600 and keep it on him untill he is about d200-400 (depending on his speed)and go up and over to the direction he is flying. If hes smart he will extend downward and away, but most like to pull up and turn giving you a nice snapshot.
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After looking at your pictures Tex, something has just danwed on me!
By ROLLING your aircraft that way to manouver, is that what people mean when they describe the 190 roll rate?
I often come across discussions RE: roll rate and this must be what they mean by it, so it's not just turning fast that is good, but being able to do this roll quickly, hence why the the 190 is good,
So if you had a fight with a spit etc, then you could do the roll that is shown above and chances are you would win in a 190 ?
Away to practice that roll and see for myself!
Cheers
Big G
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In this manouver the roll rate isnt THAT important. You can do it successfully with lesser roll rate as well. Personally I find rudder and flaps more important in this case then the actuall roll rate.
Meaning when comparing this manouver in a say F4U (good roll) vs a Spit (not so good roll) its more the small rudder and no combat flaps that frustrates me on the spit.
Though I have one reversal manouver that is very similar to this one where the roll rate is extreamly important.
What I do in that manouver is I start a left hand turn, to make the enemy go for a lead turn shot, then I pull upp into a barrell roll. At the top I instead of streaching the barrell roll like I do in the above manouver I tighten it. This way when Im at the top Im facing 90 degrees to the direction of the roll. I pull a split S and I end up behind the enemy if he over commited to the lead turn.
If he didnt over commit and this is very common vs 38 pilots. He will try to follow you upp through it but due to the horrible roll rate he will not be able to tighten his barrell roll enough and you will be behind him inside the barrellroll. He will still be facing nose up and you got a great shot at him.
Generally the barrellroll manouvers are obviously helped by a good roll rate but there are other situations where rollrate excells even more.
Example of these sitations is in vertical manouvers. When you are in a E fight against a enemy you can adjust your vertical manouvers very quickly with good roll rate. This gives you a huge advantage when it comes to utilizing the angles of the fight.
Another example obviously is scissors. But scissors is a panic before death situation so I rather use the roll rate before that. ;)
Anyways the more vertical there is in the fight the more you can utilize a good roll rate.
Tex
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Is there anyway you could put some pics of the 190 roll rate in action Tex? I find myself in a spit V, Seafire or Zeke as i can turn them and end up slow and turning in dogfights, I would really like to learn a 190 or anything else that has good roll rates as i want to explore and enjoy flying some of the great planes that are available properly, instead of just diving and climbing in one of these planes.
Big G
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Originally posted by Big G
Is there anyway you could put some pics of the 190 roll rate in action Tex? I find myself in a spit V, Seafire or Zeke as i can turn them and end up slow and turning in dogfights, I would really like to learn a 190 or anything else that has good roll rates as i want to explore and enjoy flying some of the great planes that are available properly, instead of just diving and climbing in one of these planes.
Big G
imagine this BigG...
the 190d9 can do a 360 roll in like 1.5 seconds or less, in some situations even faster, like at high alt and high speed.
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Energy Egg. Diving while still not in Icon range of enemy slightly to heighten your E state and speed. Then the unsuspecting con will not be able to judge your E state hardly at all. Great for planes that hide energy well I.E. P-40 F6F F4U ect.
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P40s do not hide E, they never had it :)
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Originally posted by JB73
imagine this BigG...
the 190d9 can do a 360 roll in like 1.5 seconds or less, in some situations even faster, like at high alt and high speed.
You mean like a big loop ? or more of a barrell roll type roll?
Once I get the basics, I'm going to really learn how to fly the 190, I love watching the 190 drivers doing their thing at high speed, what I hate seeing is such a wonderful aircraft trying to turn at 200 ft with a spit or zeke, or just climbing and diving when the plane can do much much more.
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no i mean a basic, level flight roll....
fly level and slam stick to 1 side fully, and it flips around.
it is the fastest roll rate in the game by FAR
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Originally posted by Big G
After looking at your pictures Tex, something has just danwed on me!
By ROLLING your aircraft that way to manouver, is that what people mean when they describe the 190 roll rate?
I often come across discussions RE: roll rate and this must be what they mean by it, so it's not just turning fast that is good, but being able to do this roll quickly, hence why the the 190 is good,
So if you had a fight with a spit etc, then you could do the roll that is shown above and chances are you would win in a 190 ?
Away to practice that roll and see for myself!
Cheers
Big G
Where roll rate comes into play is the redirection of your lift vector. Basically you can think of it as the "up" view from your cockpit (not quite right)...the faster a plane can roll...the faster it can reorient its lift vector. When you turn a plane you basically roll the lift vector then apply G's.
Its one of the components you can "manage"
Roll
Turn
Rudder authority
Elevator authority
All four come into play in a "dog fight"...as an examble a F4U-1 has considerable advantage in 2 of the 4 vs a spit 9 (roll and Rudder)...but is deficient in pure "turn rate"...so a good hog driver will always be fighting in the vertical using his roll rate and rudder authority vs the spitty....he'll also use his faster E bleed and combat flaps (plus his secret weapon) to set up snapshots or semitracking shots in the horizontal as practical...but not turn with the spitty per se....
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I am such a student. Workin on it.
"the more I know, the more I know how little I know..)
Thanks guys!
:D
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*BANG* My head exploded.
Hmm does this have somthing to do with the cases when I dive down on an enemy and just as I think I am about to get into fireing possition, his plane is starting to move up right, I black out and now he is behing me :(