Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Nash on June 14, 2005, 09:09:12 PM
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This post goes towards cleaning up our own mess. HTC aint our mom. That's not their job. And they are not our translators nor are we in grade 3 detention.
There was a sticky post in the OC that had a list of rules. What good are the rules if we don't understand them? One of the first is: "No personal attacks."
What does that mean, no personal attacks?
So lets figure this out. Consider this an OC type debate. The first in a few, maybe.
The question is: "What is a personal attack?"
Here's the ambiguity:
"Sandman you suck, because...." vs "French people suck because..."
What is a personal attack?
Go.
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nash you are a SOB!
and you stink
and I hate your mom
thta is all personal attack
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Very good, Pooh. :)
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Is "Gawdamned socialist hippy commies" or "neo-Nazi republicans" a personal attack?
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you dang dummy!
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Originally posted by Slurpee
you dang dummy!
If that was an example of a personal attack, you obviously haven't visited the OC. :)
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Okay, let me give you an example (to the best of my recollection).
I know at one point in time, one of my posts said "Martlet, you are a complete idiot."
In another, I said "Nuke, I think you are deceitful, because you..."
In another, I said "shreck you..."
In another, I said "Toad, the reason why your arguments seem to me to fail so often is because...."
Those are all personall attacks.
Two of them I think are valid, and two of them I think were just reactionary vitriol.
I aint asking HTC - I'm asking you. What's the difference between the two types?
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Wikipedia says... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_attack)
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First of all you (*@$%5 )@&%)& @))__%&# @%%## Canadian, Pyro said:
Pyro:
In the meantime, do not bring O'club traffic to this or other forums.
So, you )*&$@#$#5@ &)@%%@@@, this thread isn't supposed to even be here. What are you a ) (@%T70-0 )"@$@@ that can't even read?
Besides, you're just a @%)_6#)(@ @&*@$##%_ ?@%&@@ anyway so you shouldn't even be posting.
How's that for an example of a personal attack?
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Pretty good. But it aint helping.
I kinda had guys particularly like you in mind when I was hoping that we could fix this ourselves.
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Hey, you wanted to know what a personal attack was... not me. :)
I already know it's an ad hominem.
As to us saving the O'Club, there's one big hurdle to clear first. HT, Pyro and Skuzz have to decide it's worth the bandwidth/trouble.
Then and only then will the new ground rules be posted. I have this funny feeling it'll be what THEY decide. They're probably letting that other thread run just to let folks vent. I kinda doubt they're looking to it for ideas. Maybe, but Dale never struck me as one in need of guidance from us on something of that nature. He seems to have a clear idea of how he wants things to go in this area.
Moderators? I dunno. I just have this strong feeling that if they reinstate it at all, it will be a much different place.
The did try Mods in the MA with what I'd have to call mixed success. I think (when a mod is online) the MA seems more controlled, although there's always the 2 year old whining "Mommy, what'd I do? Billy did worse! Billy said "doo-doo"." And there's the inevitable threads about moderator abusing the poor children that routinely pop up in the General Discussion.
Dare we really think O'Club moderators wouldn't generate the same response?
As far as fixing it ourselves with no magic internet powers, I doubt that.
Peer pressure in the O'Club only seems to make the pressured ones more disagreeable/outrageous. Aruba thread submitted as Exhibit A, your honor.
Setting the proper example? Once again, I don't see it working. There's some mighty polite intelligent folks in the O. Have you ever seen Seagoon really be anything less than polite? There's other good examples as well and I won't try to name them all as I'll miss some and feel bad later. Point being, good examples have always been there and seem to have little effect on the abusive posters.
So after peer pressure and setting the good example, what's left? The ignore button? I suppose we could all ignore the true jerks. But that option has always been there and if it was used, it was also ineffective.
Those are my thoughts.
....and now you will cause us all to be hauled before Captain's Mast, Mr. Nash. I expect at least 20 of the best with the cat for each of us in this thread. Harrrrrrrrrr!
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Originally posted by Nash
Is "Gawdamned socialist hippy commies" or "neo-Nazi republicans" a personal attack?
Not necessarily, as long as the moderators agree with you. Otherwise, yes.
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Harrrrr! :D
Originally posted by Toad
As to us saving the O'Club, there's on big hurdle to clear first. HT, Pyro and Skuzz have to decide it's worth the bandwidth/trouble
There's an even bigger hurdle to clear, my friend. That is that we ourselves are even worth the trouble.
If we can't comprehend simple english.... and if we don't understand the meaning of "personal attack".... then there's just no point. Tank it. Cuz it aint gonna get better. 'Cuz we don't understand.
My hope is that we'll come to a place where we do understand what constitutes a personal attack. When we do, we'll know if either us or anyone else has crossed that line. And we'll know if or why we deserved censure.
Not because we agreed with the rules. And definitely NOT because we misunderstood them. But because they were the rules, and we DID understand them. And we broke them. And we recognize what constitutes breaking them.
A simple point.
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Originally posted by Nash
There's an even bigger hurdle to clear, my friend. That is that we ourselves are even worth the trouble.
[/b]
I don't think any of us have any input into that call though.
My hope is that we'll come to a place where we do understand what constitutes a personal attack. When we do, we'll know if either us or anyone else has crossed that line. And we'll know if or why we deserved censure.
[/b]
Two questions:
If we do come to that place, how will HT know how many of the potentially thousands of posters have arrived there? (Bears on the first point above.)
If some how the community arrives at that place and someone crosses the line..... what then? We point fingers? Stand and gawk? E-mail Skuzzy? What's the solution to avoiding/countering another "Aruba" thread? Because you and I both know that it will happen. Nature of the "open BBS" beast, isn't it?
Harrrrrrrrrrrrr! 30 lashes for the unrepentent ring leaders of the mutiny! Mr. Pyro, lash them to the gratings! Mr. Skuzzy, sharpen the claws on the Cat!
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There will always be "personal" attacks in the O'Club. The question isn't weather members can understand the rules, it's weather HTC wants to deal with moderating.
I personally wish there were no moderation, I take Lazs' for the most part... but it's HTC's business and reputation.
When Pyro stated that HTC "witnessed the complete degradation of that forum ", it was a huge overstatment. The O'Club didn't desintigrate really.....just a few people did. What disintigrated was the desire to moderate and deal with the forum, I believe.
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The O Club always reminded me of the two most common elements in the universe,
Hydrogen and Stupidity.
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Originally posted by Toad
I don't think any of us have any input into that call though.
Two questions:
If we do come to that place, how will HT know how many of the potentially thousands of posters have arrived there? (Bears on the first point above.)
If some how the community arrives at that place and someone crosses the line..... what then? We point fingers? Stand and gawk? E-mail Skuzzy? What's the solution to avoiding/countering another "Aruba" thread? Because you and I both know that it will happen. Nature of the "open BBS" beast, isn't it?
Harrrrrrrrrrrrr! 30 lashes for the unrepentent ring leaders of the mutiny! Mr. Pyro, lash them to the gratings! Mr. Skuzzy, sharpen the claws on the Cat!
I can't believe I'm saying this. I can't belive that we can't tell the difference.
But okay, when there is no ambiguity as to what constitutes a personal attack, then it is incumbent upon US to weed these guys out. As they come. As it happens.
We know who they are. They have crept into our midst like weeds. They'll continue to do so. And it is up to us to first agree to some set of ground rules. And when those are broken, it is up to us to call them on it.
We haven't done that.
We've either liked, in general, what they said as it has leaned to one side or the other, propping up this argument or that, or we just didn't care.
Done it myself: "man that guy is an arse, but it's funny watching the other side twitch on account of it."
Problem is.... Now we lost the OC. Just gone. It may have been funny, or easy, to watch that guy antagonize people, but now there's nothing left.
We can't allow it.
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Now, how do you actually do it in practice?
Take a hypothetical:
Someone starts an outrageous thread, full of racism, sexual gender bashing, obscenity and personal attacks on other BBS personalities.
400 posters chime in censuring the original poster. No one supports him.
He lashes back at each one becoming more outrageous with every post.
What do you DO? (Assuming you don't have what Rude used to wishfully ask for, "the button" to "disappear" the offender from the BBS forever more.)
Solve that, you may have an answer.
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Nash .. you have got to be joking.
And it is up to us to first agree to some set of ground rules. And when those are broken, it is up to us to call them on it.
The ground rules were already set by HTC ... they were stickied in each forum and they were summarily dismissed in the O'Club with incredible consistency.
Here are the killers ...
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.
You all knew what they were when Pyro posted them and ya didn't call anybody on them then ... but now you will ?
I can still hear my son saying ... "Dad ... I promise I will never do it again ... please give me back my hot wheels car and I will be a good boy ... I promise I promise ... really ... I do"
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That's an extreme example, Toad, but ya gotta start somewhere.
In my mind, that is basically utopian. You have the entire community drowning him out.
Sure, he may get away with a few inflammatory posts, but he aint gonna get traction and he's gonna move on.
What's more real is the intra-thread arguments that break out. When person X says " you know what, you're a real dick" or "Americans are a bunch of hooligans."
The line gets finer. The definition more taxed. The result unclear.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Nash .. you have got to be joking.
Unfortunately, no - I am not. Because....
Even though: "You all knew what they were when Pyro posted them..." it is all too apparent that we didn't.
Hence this thread.
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Another Zen moment...
You are all idiots and your efforts are futile.
Relax. Go away for a while.
Spend time with your parents. Go visit your sister and her husband. Your brother wants to go fishing with you. There is a novel you haven't finished.
With the same feverish pitch and headlong attitude that created the it, everyone is trying to solve THE PROBLEM in the same way. Most of the problems that people cause can be solved by backing away from the problem and letting it sort itself out.
Interesting idea follows: Instead of people trying to solve the problem, perhaps people should abstain from the problem. Hum?
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Originally posted by Drunky
Another Zen moment...
You are all idiots and your efforts are futile.
Relax. Go away for a while.
Spend time with your parents. Go visit your sister and her husband. Your brother wants to go fishing with you. There is a novel you haven't finished.
With the same feverish pitch and headlong attitude that created the it, everyone is trying to solve THE PROBLEM in the same way. Most of the problems that people cause can be solved by backing away from the problem and letting it sort itself out.
Interesting idea follows: Instead of people trying to solve the problem, perhaps people should abstain from the problem. Hum?
You better go have a few more beers ... you are making way too much sense. Remember ... you have a reputation to uphold.
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Originally posted by Nash
That's an extreme example, Toad, but ya gotta start somewhere.
[/b]
Sure it is. I was trying to be as clear as possible.
In my mind, that is basically utopian. You have the entire community drowning him out.
But we both know that will not happen. Further, there are some that won't be drowned out and I bet we could both name 5 past or present in 20 seconds or less. ;) Some folks are just that way.
Sure, he may get away with a few inflammatory posts, but he aint gonna get traction and he's gonna move on.
Did someone mention utopian? ;)
The line gets finer. The definition more taxed. The result unclear.
I'm afraid Slap is right. The result isn't unclear at all.
You'll have some that will play by the rules because that is their nature and normal "mode".
You will have some that will play by the rules because, while they don't want to, they feel the have too.
You will have some that will play by the rules for a while and then feel they warrant a special exception.
Then you'll have those who will gleefully accept the challenge of pushing the envelope from the very start just for the reaction it garners. The griefers, if you will.
Now, I shall retire. I admire your effort but I think you count too much on your fellow posters to be "touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature." (A. Lincoln)
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This is a Private Board with rules. I imagine the board mods decide what a personal attack is. They always warn before taking any action. Using common sense would be nice. If you have to ask if something is a personal attack, it probably is. This is a free country and you are welcome to go make your own board and make up your own rules. The reason the rules are there in the first place is to ensure that the board remains useful. If conversations degrade into multi page hate fests, what good is that?
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(Toad - point well taken. Good night)
When it says "No personal attacks".... what does that mean to you?
2 examples:
Perhaps by someone attacking someone's beliefs, they can be said to be attacking the person who holds those beliefs, because by attacking those beliefs, they mock the people who hold those beliefs.
Or...
Perhaps not, because an attack on someone's beliefs is an attack on those beliefs alone, and not the people who hold them.
Can you seperate them?
Now consider politics.... left/right.
When one attacks right/left wing principles, can you attack those principles without offending those who keep them?
No wonder all the offence.
How do we solve this?
Is the phrase "personal attack" even appropriate? Because I think it's all personal. I don't think there's a way to escape that. If you hold something to be true, and then someone else tells you that it's not true, it will be personal; an attack on a myriad of things: your beliefs, your values, your sense of right/wrong, your judgement. It will be a personal attack. No way around it.
That's why people lash out. And that's why personal attacks escalate to personal attacks.
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Nash, you are thinking too much. It's really not an issue regarding the definition and interpretaion of personal attacks, imo.
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Go ahead Nuke.
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too much reading and no pics
this is beating a dead horse into an Elmers Glue Bottle
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/842_1117749600_lineup.jpg)
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As much as you dug posting dune buggy threads in the OC, there is no more OC, and they are way OT here in the GD.
So there is no more posting of dune buggies.
You don't get it.
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lol, they took my post down quick, doh!
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personal attack is when a 190 shoots you when your landing!
I take that personal!!!! I had 6 kills!! LOL
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Originally posted by Toad
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....and now you will cause us all to be hauled before Captain's Mast, Mr. Nash. I expect at least 20 of the best with the cat for each of us in this thread. Harrrrrrrrrr!
Use my cat. Please.
Why have moderators?
Most folks would never walk into a bar and spout the drivel that's got everybody's panties in a bunch. They'd be killed.
If we knew who a poster in the Oclub really was, if he pissed us off he'd probably get about 700 subscriptions to Time magazine and 250 sicilian sheepdip pizzas.
The first time.
If he was a REAL ********.. well, Rude could be right... he'd probably just 'dissapear'.
Muahahhahhahhaa!
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Originally posted by Pooh21
nash you are a SOB!
No, he most certainly is not, and I resent the implication. You are a Skuzzy. Take THAT!
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Last question before I head to bed and go to work and alla that.
There are personal attacks and then there are personal attacks.
One consists of attacking another's viewpoint/beliefs/politics...
The other consists of attacking them.
What's the difference?
Libertarians suck.
and...
You suck...
Now Libertarianism.... or the Democratic party, or the Republican party all are fair game. People are not. People's belief's are fair game, but the people who hold them are not.
Everyone has a responsibility here.
To the attackers:
1) You do not attack individual people. In otherwords, don't be a doofus.
To the defenders:
1) You do not take an attack against something you believe as an attack on you. In otherwords, don't be such a sissy.
'Cuz when those two worlds collide, it's just.... lame.
You can defend your views to kingdom come. You can question others' views to kingdom come. But the minute you take any of it as a refelction of you personally, and start getting all defensive and start lashing out.... then you just sink the whole thing. Or the minute you question others' belief's or politics just to get the rise of a reaction, it was never afloat to begin with.
You guys gotta seriously question why you prod like you do. Question why you react like you do. And ultimately question why everyone else should have to put up with it if it means the loss of the entire joint.
Imma going to bed. Peace.
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You like pepperoni & anchovies?
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ha ha aren't I just the most hilarious funny clown.
zzzz.....
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why, Nash.. wuz that a personal attack?
;)
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Yall should listen to Drunky. Best idea I've heard all day on this O'Club thing.
Gonna start with that advice right now as a matter of fact. :)
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I hate myself. Thats a personal attack. Ban Me.
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Originally posted by Nash
Go ahead Nuke.
Well, it's very simple in my opinion. The O'Club is closed because HTC is tired of wasting time moderating a forum that will always have problems, no matter how well defined the rules are. Someone will always buck the system and cause problems. The definition of rules has nothing to do with it.
The problem has little to do with the definition or interpretation of any rules...... the situation is that HTC is probably considering weather or not it is worth it to their company to spend the time and resources on a constant battle that they can never win, just stem.
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Aw, look, bgb posted a pic of he and his friends reenacting a scene from Mad Max. Maybe bgb will show us his tina turner giant slinky headdress outfit.
That's not a personal attack, that's just me being drunk.
Milo, I'm making your post my sig.
Nuke, I miss you tards. I hope you're well.
Everyone else is a ... a... dweeb!
cheers,
hub
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Some of you guys are alot better at asking questions..then answering them...
lololololo..thats funny
btw..this is a REAL Personal ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/842_1115088182_flaksmokrcopy.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nash
As much as you dug posting dune buggy threads in the OC, there is no more OC, and they are way OT here in the GD.
So there is no more posting of dune buggies.
You don't get it.
I think he gets it. But you must be getting a nose bleed way up there on that high horse of yours cause this whole thread is off topic. Cleverly done though, nice escape attempt from the sticky prison.
Excel