Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on June 15, 2005, 07:38:17 PM
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Hey... you guys see this?
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/06/13/news/politics/61205200842.txt
Ya gotta wonder... this doesn't look good at all.
(Sorry... I'm going to break up the love-in with a political thread, but in my defense, he is a fighter ace.) :)
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Sandy can ya do a cut and paste. The darn thing won't open unless I allow some active-x file to function.
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Cunningham home sale to defense contractor to raises questions
By: Wire Reports -
SAN DIEGO - A defense contractor bought Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham's Del Mar home in November 2003 and sold it nearly nine months later at a $700,000 loss, it was reported today.
At the time, the Republican congressman was supporting Mitchell Wade and his firm MZM Inc. in efforts to win Pentagon contracts, The San Diego Union- Tribune reported.
Cunningham used the proceeds from the sale to buy a home in Ranch Santa Fe for about $2.5 million, the newspaper reported.
About the same time, Wade's company, which had been suffering through a flat period, was awarded tens of millions of dollars in defense and intelligence-related contracts, according to the Union-Tribune.
Cunningham denied anything untoward about the dealings.
"My whole life I've lived aboveboard," he told the newspaper. "I've never even smoked a marijuana cigarette. I don't cheat."
But others congressional and political watchdog organizations said it just didn't look right.
"This doesn't look good at all," Larry Noble, director of the Center for Responsive Politics, told the Union-Tribune. "It doesn't look like something that was on the up and up."
Wade was unavailable for comment last week. Scotty Brumett of MZM Inc. said Wade bought Cunningham's home to raise the firm's profile in San Diego.
"We were looking at expanding our company presence in San Diego," he told the Union-Tribune. "We looked at the property and thought it would work for us. But after we bought it, we realized that it did not meet our security or our corporate needs."
The Del Mar home was put back on the market within a month of the purchase, but it was never included on the multiple listing service used by Realtors, the newspaper reported.
Property records show the buyer of the Del Home as 1523 New Hampshire Avenue LLC. Nevada state business records show that Wade owns that company, the name of which is the same as the address of his Washington, D.C., office.
Cunningham told the Union-Tribune the real estate deal was independent of any help he may have given MZM.
"I don't have anything to do with contracts," Cunningham said.
MZM has been a major contributor to Cunningham campaigns, having donated $13,000 in the 2003-04 election cycle, the Union-Tribune reported.
According to the newspaper: Wade was a Pentagon program manager before starting MZM in 1993. In 2003 and 2004, MZM's business picked up. In fiscal 2003, it won $41 million in defense contracts. Since then, MZM has added tens of millions of dollars in additional contracts, including a $5 million contract to provide interpreters in Iraq. In 2004, MZM had $66 million in revenues, according to Washington Technology magazine, which put the relative corporate newcomer on its 2005 list of "Top 100 Federal Prime Contractors."
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I read that, I'm not sure what to make of it, I'd like to see more,
and from different sources.
On another note, the guy over at rightwingnews is all over Duke, but I didn't see anything more there than I did anywhere else.
Anyone finds more, post it here, I'd like to see it.
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What does it mean when someone says "it doesn't look good"????
From what the article said Cunningham sold his house. AFAIK there is no law saying he can't sell it to someone that contracts with the govt. especially if it isn't with Cunninham's area of duty in Congress.
Sheesh either make an allegation of actual wrongdoing or keep quiet about it. This trial by media and innuendo has gotten old.
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DUKE KILLED TOON!!!!!
LONG LIVE THE DUKE!!!!
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Maverick,
What it is implying is that he sold his house for way above market value. In other words that the contractor was slipping a back door bribe to him and then sold the house at it's market value, $700,000 less than they bought it for.
Is there anything too it? I'd have to see more before I'd feel comfortable saying we know enough to jump on Rep. Cunningham.
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dumb neocons don't know how to launder money, it takes a democrat to do it right, ( see clinton/whitewater)
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There's the fork in the thread. It either now takes the high road or the low road.
There's other ways to convey your opinion John.
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Originally posted by Toad
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There's the fork in the thread. It either now takes the high road or the low road.
There's other ways to convey your opinion John.
the thread was about weather cunningham took a bribe.
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Indeed.
So what exactly does Clinton, Whitewater or Democrats have to do with whether or not Cunningham took a bribe?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
So, yeah, I agree. The topic is Cunningham. Got anything to say about him and this situation?
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It does sound kinda fishy but this just cracked me up
MZM has been a major contributor to Cunningham campaigns, having donated $13,000 in the 2003-04 election cycle, the Union-Tribune reported.
isn't that the max contribution from a business? I don't see how that's major but then again this is a small part of the story.
Here's what I don't buy completly:
In 2003 and 2004, MZM's business picked up. In fiscal 2003, it won $41 million in defense contracts. Since then, MZM has added tens of millions of dollars in additional contracts, including a $5 million contract to provide interpreters in Iraq. In 2004, MZM had $66 million in revenues, according to Washington Technology magazine, which put the relative corporate newcomer on its 2005 list of "Top 100 Federal Prime Contractors."
This seems like it's much to do about nothing. We did invade this country called Iraq and defense contractors have made ALOT of money since them.
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I saw no mention of market value in the article. I find that odd. No comment on how long the property was for sale and what the asking price was. No real mention of the property at all. Just the 2.5 million dollar estate purchased after it's sale. Wierd how they throw an irrelevant number in there and leave the relevant stuff out.
Typical journalism these days.
Disclaimer: This article is the first I've ever heard of this guy.
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Lawmaker's home sale questioned (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20050612-9999-1n12windfall.html)
Mitchell Wade bought the San Diego Republican's house for $1,675,000 in November 2003 and put it back on the market almost immediately for roughly the same price. But the Del Mar house languished unsold and vacant for 261 days before selling for $975,000.....
..."We were looking at expanding our company presence in San Diego," Brumett said. "We looked at the property and thought it would work for us. But after we bought it, we realized that it did not meet our security or our corporate needs."
So the company placed it back on the market within one month of purchasing it, where it stayed for more than eight months, selling eventually for $700,000 less than the price Wade gave Cunningham.
"I don't know why it didn't sell," said listing agent Elizabeth Todd, a Realtor with the Willis Allen Co. in Del Mar. "I honestly don't. I mean, it's a house in Del Mar west of I-5 and it's a good-sized house. I honestly don't know why."
No Realtor was formally involved when Cunningham sold the house to Wade. But Todd had set the asking price for Cunningham at $1,675,000 and sent a table of comparable house sales to Wade justifying the price, she and Cunningham said. He didn't hire Todd as the listing agent and never paid her a fee, she added. Nor was the house ever posted in the Realtors' multiple listing service, she added.
There's more there as well.
I figure let it brew up for a week or two, we'll have an idea what went down.
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This guy (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/) has been talking about it for what seems like ten days straight. It only just hit the papers today. If you're curious about it - it has pretty much everything that's known about it.
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Thanks.
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Originally posted by Maverick
What does it mean when someone says "it doesn't look good"????
From what the article said Cunningham sold his house. AFAIK there is no law saying he can't sell it to someone that contracts with the govt. especially if it isn't with Cunninham's area of duty in Congress.
Sheesh either make an allegation of actual wrongdoing or keep quiet about it. This trial by media and innuendo has gotten old.
I'll speak plainly... if a politician sells a house way above the market value, one has to wonder if he's corrupt.
That said, it's up to his constituents to decide (at the polls) because I doubt there's enough here to do anything about it in a court.
All politics aside, I think politicians should be smart enough to avoid situations like this. They are after all, public servants.
On the other hand... it might just be a big fat misunderstanding and Mitchell Wade is a complete moron.
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unlike some who claim to be, cunningham was a REAL war hero, using superior pilot skills he out maneuvered and shot down a north Vietnamese fighter ace in a 1 v 1, so if he took a alleged bribe it's ok with me, we owe it to him.
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... but that's where we draw the line. Anything worse than simple corruption and he's gone. :aok
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Originally posted by Toad
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There's the fork in the thread. It either now takes the high road or the low road.
There's other ways to convey your opinion John.
sigh.
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I admire Cunningham as a fighter pilot immensely. He did well at it, I never heard anyone that was around him say that he was anything less than a tiger and he tells his tales well.
for his service.
Now, I also view that as separate from his duty as a Congressman.
IF this is an under the table deal, be it bribe, kickback, or whatever, his "hero status" as an Ace should have no impact on what happens to him.
If he broke the law, he broke the law. Accountability, responsibility.
He won't be the first hero to "turn a trick".
It may all be legit; remember, first reports are usually wrong.
Give it a bit of time; there's going to be an investigation. No need to libel a good man and absolutely no need to excuse a crook.
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Originally posted by john9001
unlike some who claim to be, cunningham was a REAL war hero, using superior pilot skills he out maneuvered and shot down a north Vietnamese fighter ace in a 1 v 1, so if he took a alleged bribe it's ok with me, we owe it to him.
I'm a Duke Cunningham fan, but if he took a bribe, he was wrong, and I'll be terribly disappointed in him. Being an ace doesn't give you a free pass. In fact, I think it means you have a higher standard to uphold.
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When 100s of millions worth of war fighing contracts are awarded to the guy with the cleverest bribing scheme and not to the guy with the best services for the dollar young soldiers you have never heard of die for it.
They are not heros I guess. They dont matter.
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Originally posted by Pongo
When 100s of millions worth of war fighing contracts are awarded to the guy with the cleverest bribing scheme and not to the guy with the best services for the dollar young soldiers you have never heard of die for it.
They are not heros I guess. They dont matter.
yea but like most articles that criticise war contracts you never hear what they were contracted for nor if they were the best offer/value. They could have been the ONLY bids on those contracts but the fact that they got them and Duke who has nothing to do with them getting them have an assumed shady real estate deal thats supposed to make this look bad?
I don't know either way but I just don't assume this is bad, there's not enough info here to make any kind of judement.
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Another Linky (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20050612-9999-1n12windfall.html)
My whole life I've lived aboveboard," Cunningham said. "I've never even smoked a marijuana cigarette.
Kinda funny actually... we've had a lot of talk around here about statements that are irrelevant to the discussion.
Okay Randy, what does marijuana have to do with real estate? Was Wade smoking it?
Doh... my eyes must have glazed right over that little gem on the first link.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm a Duke Cunningham fan, but if he took a bribe, he was wrong, and I'll be terribly disappointed in him. Being an ace doesn't give you a free pass. In fact, I think it means you have a higher standard to uphold.
I agree 100%. Cunningham also suffered a broken back ejecting from his severely SAM damaged plane after his famous dogfight. I personally think he is a straight arrow and that a single Represenative yields little power in awarding contracts.
If there were other similar houses that sold for similar amounts in the region, it is a tempest in a teapot. HOWEVER, if there was hanky-panky involved he should be given the full Pete Rose treatment.
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Originally posted by Toad
I admire Cunningham as a fighter pilot immensely. He did well at it, I never heard anyone that was around him say that he was anything less than a tiger and he tells his tales well. for his service.
Now, I also view that as separate from his duty as a Congressman.
IF this is an under the table deal, be it bribe, kickback, or whatever, his "hero status" as an Ace should have no impact on what happens to him.
If he broke the law, he broke the law. Accountability, responsibility.
He won't be the first hero to "turn a trick".
It may all be legit; remember, first reports are usually wrong.
Give it a bit of time; there's going to be an investigation. No need to libel a good man and absolutely no need to excuse a crook.
Preach to us Brother Toad!
I concur,
Karaya
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Fer cripes sakes..
It's how the 'beltway' works.. yah do yer time wearing the uniform, after yer out; unless yah wanna sell hot dogs or be a carnie exibit, you go take yer warfighting skills to the defense business.
Eventually, you take yer fame and corporate savvy to the political arena.. Now if one of the companys you've done business with/for donates to your campaign or buys your house and you pay yer taxes & report the transactions then wtf is wrong?
Cripes.. has it become un-american to make a gawdamned living?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
then wtf is wrong?
This part:
donates to your campaign or buys your house and you pay yer taxes & report the transactions
If the reports so far are accurate.
removed the inadvertent shout[/edit>
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Toad, have they got the tax and declarations stuff yet? Nothin I've read so far has indicated he's not played ball by the rules..
Did I miss something?
(I musta, cause yah usually don't yell...)
Oh, btw; if my cat has kittens I'm gonna name one after yah.
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Sorry, wasn't yelling. Just highlighted the "what was wrong part". I should have just bolded it; you'd have gotten it.
From the link I posted up thread:
No mention of Cunningham's real estate transaction with Wade or the lawmaker's subsequent purchase of the $2.55 million house in Rancho Santa Fe appears on the annual financial disclosure form he is required to fill out each year as a member of Congress because personal residences are exempt from the forms.
Ain't passin' judgement, just sayin'.
Dana Carvey voice: "Personal residences exempt. How Conveeeeeeeeeeeeenient."
Make it the biggest Tom in the litter then. ;)
Ain't like the world is short of cats or anything. Is this bunch "special"? Do they taste even better than chicken?
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Aha. Betcha our boy pays the taxes, nice and legal.
The kid down the street has a litter... the runt has personality; looks like it would appreciate flying lessons. We're actively involved in finding 'em all homes. 3 left to go. I've resolved to not let the little buggers get snuffed.
Wanna cat?
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I'm a Duke Cunningham fan, but if he took a bribe, he was wrong, and I'll be terribly disappointed in him. Being an ace doesn't give you a free pass. In fact, I think it means you have a higher standard to uphold.
Some of the best "aces" were also men of rather "colorful" character. Your idea of what constitutes stepping over the line might be very different from his. Just because a man served his country well in the armed forces, just because he was an "ace", or even a Medal of Honor winner, doesn't stop him from being human and doing things wrong. Bravery in battle and good morals don't always go hand in hand.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Some of the best "aces" were also men of rather "colorful" character. Your idea of what constitutes stepping over the line might be very different from his. Just because a man served his country well in the armed forces, just because he was an "ace", or even a Medal of Honor winner, doesn't stop him from being human and doing things wrong. Bravery in battle and good morals don't always go hand in hand.
Accepting a bribe in any form is over the line. Cunningham trades on his name and reputation of honor and integrity. This is a guy who is a lot more like Joe Foss than Greg Boyington, and rarely hesitates to say so. He is in a position that requires him to be so. This is not a case of Cunningham being FORCED to try to be something he's not. He chose to enter public service and trade on his reputation and name.
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Based solely on my knowledge of the housing market in Southern California, this deal smells to high heaven. The way real estate has exploded here I can't imagine anyone losing money on a deal.
Ain't no way that house languished unless they were asking WAY more than it was worth. In that area of San Diego county $1 million doesn't get you a mansion anymore.
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There's the fork in the thread. It either now takes the high road or the low road.
There's other ways to convey your opinion John.
Outstanding save Toad!
If we can get a couple more people to just use their head and chime in it will go a long way toward alleviating the pressure on HTC to "do something"
< S >
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
It does sound kinda fishy but this just cracked me up
isn't that the max contribution from a business? I don't see how that's major but then again this is a small part of the story.
Here's what I don't buy completly:
This seems like it's much to do about nothing. We did invade this country called Iraq and defense contractors have made ALOT of money since them.
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING! We have a winner.
My thoughts, exactly GS.
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Another thing to think about. MZM gets to write off the $700,000 as a capitol loss. It could be called a sound business move. The company gets the tax write off and the insider gets a great deal, if I read it right.
Remember, Dubya did a similar deal when he sold Arbusto.
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Originally posted by rpm
Remember, Dubya did a similar deal when he sold Arbusto.
Then it must be okay. :aok
I think John brought it up, and my apologies if this is off topic, but what were the details on the Clinton Whitewater deal?
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Originally posted by Karnak
Maverick,
What it is implying is that he sold his house for way above market value. In other words that the contractor was slipping a back door bribe to him and then sold the house at it's market value, $700,000 less than they bought it for.
Is there anything too it? I'd have to see more before I'd feel comfortable saying we know enough to jump on Rep. Cunningham.
Karnak and Sandy,
Yep I fully understand the implications and innuendo regarding the story. What I was commenting about is this. Given thatin the article all there IS is innuendo and an implication, it's a non event. Nope I'm not a "fanboi" of Cunningham, I'm just someone whose tired of character assassination based on innuendo and implications. If those folks actually have something of SUBSTANCE then publish it, get an indictment and move on. If all they have is a feeling or they think something just doesn't look right then all they have is an opinion. That is not fact. If they have something to investigate then get to it and get the results of the investigation out in public.
To imply someone has a problem is neither an allegation nor factual proof of a problem. Get facts then publish them.
As far as property values in California are concerned there is more to consider than just the asking vs selling price. Was there a fire in the area? Was there a mudslide that wiped out half the houses there? Price can drop for any number of reasons including a lack of interest in that particular area due to neighborhood problems.
Still no factual reporting of actual wrongdoing and certainly no connection of granting of contracts by Cunningham to the contractor. There isn't even any information that Cunningham has anything to do with granting contracts for this area or activity. Again nothing but an innuendo for character assassination.
That's my point on the article that I read. It's fluff and no substance or to use another cliche, smoke and mirrors.
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Whatever it was, it's done.
It'll be officially investigated I think.
Time enough then to decide if he's the hero or the goat.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Another Linky (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/20050612-9999-1n12windfall.html)
Kinda funny actually... we've had a lot of talk around here about statements that are irrelevant to the discussion.
Okay Randy, what does marijuana have to do with real estate? Was Wade smoking it?
Doh... my eyes must have glazed right over that little gem on the first link.
This is a bit of a play on what I said earlier, so I'll respond:
He didn't write the articles that he's quoted in. That's simply what the author of the article decided to quote. The article I mentioned, in regards to irrelevant information and ommition of pertinant information, was a decision by the author to do so. It's called journalism. It was poorly done in the article listed at the top. Very poorly done.
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Good point. It would be nice to see a tape of the interview and find out when/how the subject of marijuana came up. Lacking any sort of context, I'm left to believe that Cunningham was dodging the subject.
Wait, there's more. (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/06/16/news/top_stories/2005-6-16-22-58.txt)
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I don't think he was dodging the subject, but trying to make a point that he is a very straight laced individual. You guys are reading to much into his comment, IMO.
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Ah... the scrutiny begins.
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Ok, I'll have to admit this looks fishy (no pun intended). It may be within the ethical boundries, but it's not looking good for the "Dukester".
A defense contractor whose real estate dealings with Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham have raised ethical questions has another connection to Cunningham: He owns a boat docked at a Washington yacht club ---- a boat on which Cunningham stays while working in the Capitol.
Now, another connection between Cunningham and Wade is raising questions ---- a boat owned by Wade and occupied at least part-time by Cunningham.
U.S. Coast Guard records show that Wade owns the 42-foot, 34-ton boat, which bears the name "Duke Stir."
Capital Yacht Club dock master Kelvin Lee said this week that the vessel is docked at Cunningham's slip at the marina on the Potomac River in Washington.
Lee was hesitant to give more details, but did say that until recently, a boat with the name "Kelly C" was docked at the slip. Washington Harbor Police officials said this week that Cunningham is the registered owner of the Kelly C. That boat was removed for possible refurbishment and replaced by the Duke Stir, Lee said.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Accepting a bribe in any form is over the line. Cunningham trades on his name and reputation of honor and integrity. This is a guy who is a lot more like Joe Foss than Greg Boyington, and rarely hesitates to say so. He is in a position that requires him to be so. This is not a case of Cunningham being FORCED to try to be something he's not. He chose to enter public service and trade on his reputation and name.
I agree if he took a bribe, he stepped over the line. Legally, and ethically. Whether he did it or not may be an issue, but I'm not going to believe him just because he flew fighters.
If the man actively trades on his history, or ever compares himself to a man like Joe Foss, to me that shows a major character flaw right there. I personally dont care if he flew fighters in Vietnam or flipped hamburgers in Canada hiding from the draft, neither act specifically says hes trustworthy or not. I need to know more context than just his actions to judge character. He may be a bonafide hero, but telling everyone he is just to get votes (to me) tarnishes the image, so to speak.
As I said though, I dont know the man so I could be way off base. I hope for the sake of those who do believe in him that they are not dissapointed.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
I agree if he took a bribe, he stepped over the line. Legally, and ethically. Whether he did it or not may be an issue, but I'm not going to believe him just because he flew fighters.
If the man actively trades on his history, or ever compares himself to a man like Joe Foss, to me that shows a major character flaw right there. I personally dont care if he flew fighters in Vietnam or flipped hamburgers in Canada hiding from the draft, neither act specifically says hes trustworthy or not. I need to know more context than just his actions to judge character. He may be a bonafide hero, but telling everyone he is just to get votes (to me) tarnishes the image, so to speak.
As I said though, I dont know the man so I could be way off base. I hope for the sake of those who do believe in him that they are not dissapointed.
I think you're misunderstanding what I mean when I say he "trades on his name". I'm not saying he goes out and says "vote for me, I'm a hero, just like Joe Foss". I'm saying the reason he has reached the position of trust and power he holds is that he had the notariety from being an ace and a cool guy, and he capitalized on it by building a reputation as a stand up guy. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Unless he's actually taken a bribe in whatever form, then he's become a liar and a fraud.
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Ah ok. Then I agree 100%. Sorry, misunderstood. :)
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Ah ok. Then I agree 100%. Sorry, misunderstood. :)
No apology needed. Different people interpret the same phrase in different ways.