Print Page - Enough Is Enough

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Blixen on June 15, 2005, 08:14:54 PM

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Blixen on June 15, 2005, 08:14:54 PM

PLZ perk the la7 flew over a base seen 15 la7`s
why do i have to pay perks for f4u4 when la7 catches it at any alt
it needs to be perked 50 points to limit its use
or just eliminate all other air craft and save server memory
call it aces la7:mad:

rediculous stats:
la7 33050 kills

f4u4 1440 kills

c-hog 8625 kills

spit 14 526 kills

ta152 415 kills

temp 5800 kills

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Pooh21 on June 15, 2005, 08:17:02 PM

you didnt threaten to quit and your spelling is too good. There are also no references to gheys or mr lavochkins mothers loose morals. I give this whine a

4

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Blixen on June 15, 2005, 08:46:59 PM

u must be 1 of the lala drivers

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 15, 2005, 09:07:13 PM

just make a 4th country called "La".

seriously tho, thought they perked Chog to limit usage, for most part. granted, i wasnt here for the chog "crisis", but if it is anything like what i seen tonight, glad i wasnt. 2 different bases, 2 different countries, for every 2 la's, may of been a non-La, may of been. little rediculous, but that is just my opinion...to each their own i guess.

this has been discussed a little (sarcasm) on these here boards, why it should or shouldnt be...im under the impression it might not be any time soon...

and its not about its "uberness" or fuel load, or ord package, or etc...but about the numbers of them you see. keep that in mind.
~S~

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Lazerr on June 15, 2005, 09:07:33 PM

Thats not a whine chief.. Look at the stats, not too hard to understand.

Love it when certain people call hard cold facts whines.:rolleyes:

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 15, 2005, 09:25:56 PM

Cant perk the Lala, what would people do for their crutch?

50 a little over the top, gotta be worth 10-20 though.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: RTR on June 15, 2005, 09:26:42 PM

The stats Blixen posted are a little misleading.

La7 kills (an as yet non-perked aircraft) compared to:

Perked aircraft, which see far less use, due to the fact that they are perked and come at a cost.

I haven't checked the stats of the La7 versus the rest of the plane set, and really couldn't be bothered.

I don't dispute however that the La7 gets alot of use. I just, quite frankly, don't see it as all that great of a threat.

It's not as "uber" as most paint it out to be.

Perk it? Maybe it should be, just to drop the number of them that you see, but it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

RTR

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: BTW on June 15, 2005, 09:33:00 PM

From a spit's point of view I don't see any difference between an la7 and a p51. Both can run and both will die if they stay and fight - well fight any other spit than me as I haven't earned *BULLETS* in the ma yet.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 15, 2005, 09:51:42 PM

Quote

It's not as "uber" as most paint it out to be.

as i stated, not the "uberness" factor...just the shear numbers...
1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1, no biggie, but when you see 2 to 1 ratio of la7s to non-la7s, that is getting retarded...now, some nights are not as bad as others, but on a whole, most used plane in game that i see...and no i did not chk stats, just my point of view.

oh, and 50 is tad harsh, 10 or so would do the job i think, did for the CHog...

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SirLoin on June 15, 2005, 10:07:43 PM

Perk it.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Pooh21 on June 15, 2005, 11:19:18 PM

40 is last tour I flew

lookit up stats for Puuh

0 kills in lala

I only flew it when outnumbered anyway like 10-1

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SFCHONDO on June 15, 2005, 11:22:36 PM

I agree it should be perked. I would make it the same as the C-Hog 15-20 perks.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Innominate on June 16, 2005, 12:17:46 AM

I'm not really sure wether or not the la7 should be perked.

I'd like to see it perked for one month as an experiment, and see how it's stats come out then compared to the other perk planes. (especially the perk F4Us)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Blixen on June 17, 2005, 02:56:26 PM

no comments from htc?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 17, 2005, 03:16:29 PM

If it gets perked, we would have the same problem with the next free popoular airplane. So, if it is just about numbers, the problem is not going to get fixed. If it is not about numbers but about performance - even though I don;t agree since I can kill them with a p40 - then you have a point.

However, I don't think they are that good. They are fast, that about it. The refernce to the P40 above is made because I cannot kill a Spit with it but have no problems with LA7s.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Clifra Jones on June 17, 2005, 03:33:20 PM

I detect the pungent aroma of spoiled grapes.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Ghosth on June 17, 2005, 08:09:34 PM

Don't perk the La7, perk the 3 gun B20 loadout option.

As to the F4u "Crisis" well I was here.

4 out of 5 planes you saw were Chawgs, 75% of em had altitude, and they all HO'd like you wouldn't believe.

They had a kill rate that was extremely high as a result.

When you see THAT many la7s, and when the la7 kill rate gets even close to that high. THEN I'll agree to perk it.

Until then, you can have my la7 when you pry my cold dead fingers off the stick!

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 17, 2005, 08:13:10 PM

One pry bar in the mail :)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: nsty1 on June 17, 2005, 08:51:18 PM

Perk the son-of-a gun i say :D
I make it a point to chase not run,ok maybe a little,but just enough to seperate and guaranteed,I do turn fight with it even
with 38's.
Heck,even my CO will call me out to pull one out of the hangar and
fly ahead
:rofl

So you have my vote,perk it! and hopefully,it will put a stop to all this freakin' whinning about it.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 17, 2005, 08:55:57 PM

its numbers not performance...once again. not hard to kill la7, with anything, once you catch it. this post was about its rediculous usage.

thanks for the Chog recap btw...glad i did miss it, but it seems the la7 use has been escalating, why not nip in butt now?

as far as perks, and then next nonperk ride to take its place...im all for perking everything to some extent except early war stuff...give everyone 1000 or so to start off as a newb, maybe less...once again, different topic tho.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: nsty1 on June 17, 2005, 09:05:02 PM

Killnu,The number of LA-7's aren't any different than say,A horde of Ponies or 38's.Who knows,next tour,everyone maybe in
Zekes and someone out there may bring it up to perk it.
I'm with you on one,perk them all then.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: 38ruk on June 18, 2005, 01:17:07 AM

i remember the chog glory days , looks like the la7 of today , time to give the 3 gun lala the same treatment,if not both models ........38

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: jetb123 on June 18, 2005, 06:12:44 AM

I want to know why it isnt. Its fast has great guns, rolls good. Turns okay. To me it sounds like a perk plane. To me it really doesnt have a disadvantage. No matter what alt your at you can dive to the deck and haul arse back to base. Unless you've got a perk plane chasing you. Or a typh, and it will take a typh a preety long time trying to catch.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: JaniK on June 18, 2005, 07:22:09 AM

I agree, perk the LA7 to 30p, 50p sounds a bit too much.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: RTO on June 18, 2005, 10:44:28 AM

the chog is perked??? what a joke it's only chump change to fly one of those, 13 perks or less at times what's the point of perking the thing. lol

out of all the 109's and 190's what is perked?? nothing!! out of U.S. planes what is perked? F4U-4, big deal what advantage does it really give anyway? okay maybe if u want to be able to run away it CAN do that for the most part.

The LA7 as well as other planes IMO should be perked, like 190D9, 109G6/10, P51D, P47D40, for example

Come on what else do we have to spend perks on? Get rif of the silly eny factor and perk more birds. Just don't perk them like some people putt, you know when you "Sally a putt", the ball falls short of the hole on a gim'me putt!

Title: do NOT perk the LA-7
Post by: TalonX on June 18, 2005, 01:56:28 PM

There are just too many of them.

I checked my stats....

Tour 65 - Killed 45 LA-7's, killed by LA-7's 1 time.
Tour 64 - Killed 17 LA-7's, killed by LA-7's 3 times.
Tour 63 - Killed 31 LA-7's, killed by LA-7's 2 times.

Let's see.... 93 kills of LA-7 to 6 deaths by LA-7. 15.5 K/D.

Please make all Knits and Bish fly LA-7's at all times!

:D

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Wilbus on June 18, 2005, 03:27:21 PM

Quote

the chog is perked??? what a joke it's only chump change to fly one of those, 13 perks or less at times what's the point of perking the thing. lol

You obviously weren't here for the Chog crisis.

Ghosth and I were and although the LA7 numbers in the MA sometimes poses a problem it is nowhere near what the Chog did. Read what Ghosth wrote above.

I could agree to perking the LALA, atleast the 3 gun LALA, however, as stated above, that would only bring a new free bird in to mass usage, most likely the P51-D and it would probarly also in crease the already high numbers of spits.

I dislike LALA's, they are usually (not always) flown by no skilled dweebs whos only job is to hunt you down and make you turn to get killed by his 15 friends. In a close combat they pretty much own all 190's but the 109 G10 and specially the P51 can kill em.

Try a P51 D and learn how to use its flaps in combat, you'll quite quickly see that this plane is much more potent then the LA7, difference is the time it takes to learn to fly the two planes.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: 38ruk on June 18, 2005, 03:31:11 PM

I wouldnt be against perking Late War aircraft, as long as it has an earlier variant ........ 38

EDIT:

"I dislike LALA's, they are usually (not always) flown by no skilled dweebs whos only job is to hunt you down and make you turn to get killed by his 15 friends."

Exactly.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: EagleEyes on June 19, 2005, 09:21:04 AM

i do have to agree that the LA7 should be porked. Besides the 262 and 163, it has the speed manuveralbility and firepower that most planes do not have. P-51 was the best pistion fighter of the war, yet the LA 7 can kick the liven *hit out of a ponie in the MA. Kind of wierd i think. Just my 2 cents.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Wilbus on June 19, 2005, 03:35:32 PM

Quote

P-51 was the best pistion fighter of the war

That's an opinion, not a fact ;)

Second, equaly good pilots the P51 will spank the living s*** out of the LA7 (unless the LA7 runs away).

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Overlag on June 19, 2005, 05:46:50 PM

5-10 perks on the overused planes........

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Tails on June 19, 2005, 08:47:22 PM

Anyone remember the Aircraft Factories in AW? The most popular fighter at the time would be 'produced' there. Bomb it, that fighter gone for a while.

I wonder what would happen if we got those here?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Overlag on June 19, 2005, 08:53:15 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Tails
Anyone remember the Aircraft Factories in AW? The most popular fighter at the time would be 'produced' there. Bomb it, that fighter gone for a while.

I wonder what would happen if we got those here?

at least that would give bombers a valid target... right now the only use for bombers is suicide bombing CV's

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Howitzer on June 19, 2005, 11:32:17 PM

I think it deserves a little perk, but some of the info provided here seems a bit off.

First, a 51 is a good match for an la7, especially in a turn fight. 51s are uber planes in this game. Just try using those flaps a bit, and it turns great and has TONS of power.

Second, I can't belive you want to perk the G6, and the p47-40. The d25 is almost the exact same plane, holds the same ord, etc.. The G6 doesn't match the G10 in terms of power. G10 outclasses it anyday and thats why it has an ENY of 40. Neither should hold a perk in my opinion, and very few fly the g10 good enough to warrant a perk price.

Third, newbs fly the la7, most vets think it is a dweeb plane and therefore won't get in it... but if you run into a la7 with someone in it that can fly it well, you'd better look out because you can turn it great, its accerlarion is awesome, and it has a very good gun package. All other planes that good have a perk price.

Anyway.. good talking with you guys, keep living the la7 perk dream because I still say it will never happen :D

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Pooface on June 20, 2005, 07:03:26 AM

everyone seems to make a big fuss over lalas. i really love em :)
i hate flying them, and theyre disgusting planes, uurgh!, but theyre easy to kill.

infact, now i think about it, 3/4 of my perks are earned by killing lalas. its true, they usually get used by hoing dweebs. just go under the shot and chase em! they may be fast, but that doesnt matter at all. if ure a good pilot u will catch them, unless of course theyre a coward, and running home to land 2 kills:lol

im sure that perking the lala will not have a real affect. as said above, everyone will just start whining about spits. sheesh, gimme a break guys. just learn how to kill em, and youll be good:aok

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 20, 2005, 12:53:11 PM

"Everyone could fly the plane he want."

That's what the community told me.

Lets have colored Pacman skins for every
plane and play. Most don't remember this.
:D

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SuperDud on June 20, 2005, 01:07:27 PM

I just HO them. Most of the time the n00b can't aim and I have no worries about it running.
BTW Loddar, I like your sig:)

Title: LAMER 7's
Post by: Iceman24 on June 20, 2005, 01:30:33 PM

we gotta have a cost on the LA7's I was on last night and every single plane just about were LA7's I thought it could be a mission then I went to another base, nuthing but LA's, any good pilot can handle 1 vs 1 or maybe even 3 or 4 of em, but when there are over 20 LA's B&Z ing heck they could all be dweebs and they'll still get a shot on you, and all it generally takes is 1 or 2 hits and your toast, If it were up to me I would make it the same as the C Hogg... Im not whining its really good strategy to use 20 or more LA's to B&Z and throw in a few spit 5's to really tangle... its just getting to the point that if your not in something as fast or faster than an LA than you might as well not play... I like the plane, luv to fly it, it SHOULD BE PERKED THOUGH, just 10 points though

Title: perk planes
Post by: Iceman24 on June 20, 2005, 01:39:42 PM

What about giving each country a set # of total planes of each type, once that country goes over the amount of those types of planes in use, it starts charging perks... i think that sounds pretty fair... will get rid of all the hording

Title: la7
Post by: Iceman24 on June 20, 2005, 01:51:00 PM

when i 1st started playin, i couldnt get any kills but could always just get in a lala and up and get 2 or 3 kills and land em each time, to me its the same as the Tempest without an extra 20mm. The problem isn't with one or two of them, they are easy to deal with, the problem is when every dweeb and there brother grab one and get going 320mph , they either run into you, or get a lucky shot at you while your duking it out with a spit5 or something... heck you can shoot 1 down turn for his buddy and, he can up again and be back to where your at before you whack his buddy... imagine if the tempest wasnt perked, how many would you see, its an ongoing problem thats just going to get out of hand... look at the chog, its perked, only a lil bit, but enough to keep the #'s down... its not about fighting 1 or 2, but when every plane is a lala it gets very old lol

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 20, 2005, 03:35:57 PM

Quote

sheesh, gimme a break guys. just learn how to kill em, and youll be good

did you read any of this thread? or just the opening line?

easy enough to kill, its the fact that it is the most represented plane in game as far as numbers go...that was the point, not that it hard to kill or "uber"...

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 20, 2005, 03:48:00 PM

The thread seems to be in order.

They are easy to kill, but we want them perked and some people found themselves sarounded by 20 lalas and could not get away. Would it be better if they were D9s or NIKIs? Dar bar?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: LePaul on June 20, 2005, 04:49:39 PM

All whines aside, I agree it needs a nominal perk. They dominate the arena.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 20, 2005, 05:12:22 PM

a mixture of D9s, nikis, lala...heck even a spit, pony in there....anything other than a horde of lala's with one or two non lala's...thats all im asking for.

hope that answers your question dedalos.

either way its still a horde, just so sad to see so many great planes sit in hangar, planes that played bigger part in real life(and yes i know this a game) sit in the hangar. oh well.

i still think 4th country should be added called LaLa.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Halo on June 20, 2005, 10:28:48 PM

Noooooooo ... UNperk all the others except the Me262, and make that only 5 perk points.:rolleyes:

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: hitech on June 21, 2005, 09:36:01 AM

LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

HiTech

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Pooface on June 21, 2005, 09:57:54 AM

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

HiTech

very well said HT

oh, and killnu, my post wasnt trying to discount ure 'whine', it was saying that i dont want the lala perked because it is my main source of income. sorry, i guess i should of written it differently, no offence meant

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 21, 2005, 10:07:27 AM

:cool: SuperDud

As my suggest, bring in more La's like
LaGG or early La5's to confuse all those
Ladrivers.

Hitech please don't perk La7, 75% of
MArumblers wont know what to fly when
La7 is perked :p

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 21, 2005, 10:47:48 AM

Quote
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

I agree with you on this HT.

You mentioned "even more imbalance" - and by that I'm guessing this is what you're expecting:

Quote

La7 - 20%
Spit5 - 10%
190D - 8%
P51D - 8%
Typh - 8%

If the La-7 is perked at a price that is considered to be too much of a risk compared to its rewards, then the La-7 usage will dwindle. It will be effectively 'removed' from the arena in it's entitiy, and it's usage will spread to the 'next in line' alternatives.:

La7 - 2% (-18)
Spit5 - 13% (+3)
190D - 16% (+8)
P51D - 13% (+5)
Typh - 10% (+2)

If you perk one plane, and perk it heavy enough for people to stop using it totally, the imbalance will actually amplify among the 'next in line'.

People will see fewer La-7s, but they are gonna start seeing even MORE of the 'same planes'. I believe this is what HT was talking about.

...

Perking one plane is not the solution.

The La-7 is but a symbol of arena imbalance - it is not what is causing imbalance by itself.

Perking the entire late war fighters section at low, manageable prices of (3~4 points), is what is needed.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 21, 2005, 11:07:08 AM

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

HiTech

And that 20K is not really an acurate representation of the number of lalas since it is used for base deffence. Meaning, I may have 10 la7 sorties in 30 seconds without even leaving the runway. The D9 numbers for example, do represent actual sorties.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 21, 2005, 11:09:23 AM

Quote
Originally posted by killnu
a mixture of D9s, nikis, lala...heck even a spit, pony in there....anything other than a horde of lala's with one or two non lala's...thats all im asking for.

hope that answers your question dedalos.

either way its still a horde, just so sad to see so many great planes sit in hangar, planes that played bigger part in real life(and yes i know this a game) sit in the hangar. oh well.

i still think 4th country should be added called LaLa.

Hey, I am with you on flying the other planes, but if I am in a C202 or P40, the last thing I want comming after me is a SpitV or NIKI.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Krusty on June 21, 2005, 11:15:50 AM

So, Dora, G10, typh, ponyD? What do you define as late war? I think you'll have a real civil war on your hands if you perk the ponyD...

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Krusty on June 21, 2005, 11:16:50 AM

Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Hey, I am with you on flying the other planes, but if I am in a C202 or P40, the last thing I want comming after me is a SpitV or NIKI.

Actually, the C202 does well against SpitVs (at least when I've done it 1v1 it was a stalemate or I won) and I'd take it up against a n1k2 to try 'er out any time.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 21, 2005, 11:30:35 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Actually, the C202 does well against SpitVs (at least when I've done it 1v1 it was a stalemate or I won) and I'd take it up against a n1k2 to try 'er out any time.

I've won a few but I attributed that to the pilot of the spit and not me or the plane :D

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Clifra Jones on June 21, 2005, 01:57:18 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

Perking the entire late war fighters section at low, manageable prices of (3~4 points), is what is needed.

(I am disagreeing with you twice in one day, that is rare)

Think about the concequences of what you are asking. The new player who has 0 perks will not be able to fly any of the fast late war planes. Unless they are experienced pilots they will die a lot! This will create much more frustration to an already difficult and frustrating game to the new player. They are confidence builders. Granted, they may use them as a crutch and never learn the shear joy of the early war turners. It's the way things are.

Imaging the new player who logs on to AH for the 1st time and it real stoked to fly the P51D and he finds out he can't until he earns some perk points. Can you not hear the uterances of "Man, this game sucks!". One lost free trialer.

Not only this, now that you've perked the runners favorite planes what do you think they are going to do? You got it, run more. They will be even less inclined to engage for fear of losing those perkies. So now you've only made one problem worse. Now these guys will do nothing but vulch, cherry pick and run.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 21, 2005, 02:11:44 PM

Quote
Think about the concequences of what you are asking. The new player who has 0 perks will not be able to fly any of the fast late war planes. Unless they are experienced pilots they will die a lot!

They already die a lot, Clifra. Planes don't matter. Think of the mathematical concept of infinity. Infinity + infinity is still just infinity. They die infinitely, everytime they up. The only difference is do they ruin the game for the rest of the people or not.

The state and mindset of the "new player" is grossly exaggerated amongst the community IMO. Remember back on our own newbie days - we didn't care how much we died. We took for granted we die a lot. Why? Because we were newbies.

All the 'best' or 'recommended' planes didn't matter. We just died. It wasn't only after we began to understand about flying and stuff, did fast planes or turny planes started to matter.

This tendency to believe that "newbies will quit if they don't have an easy plane" is circulated around ferociously - but I dare say it's a myth. People just adapt to what the game offers.

What really makes the people quit, is repeated experiences of frustration, lameness, and stagnant gameplay. And it's not the newbies who are quitting either. It's the vets.

Quote
This will create much more frustration to an already difficult and frustrating game to the new player.

It's basically the same thing in every flight sim game Clifra. People cope with frustrations, and get motivated to fly better. They adapt to things.

If someone is gonna quit just because they have to pay a small sum of 'game money' to fly a powerful plane, then the chances are they will quit for some other reason already.

And it's not like the planes are inaccessible, or perked at hundreds of points which require months to build up the perks to just fly it once. It's 3 points. You could fly and go HO every sortie and that'll still earn you enough perks to fly a late war plane.

Quote
They are confidence builders. Granted, they may use them as a crutch and never learn the shear joy of the early war turners. It's the way things are.

The question is, do they have to be this way?

Quote
Imaging the new player who logs on to AH for the 1st time and it real stoked to fly the P51D and he finds out he can't until he earns some perk points. Can you not hear the uterances of "Man, this game sucks!". One lost free trialer.

The same thing can be applied to any perked plane Clifra.

Some people's favorites are the jets and rockets. Brit fans love the Spit14. USN fans may want the ultimate Corsair. These are all perked. They don't complain about it. They cope with it. Despite the outrageous perk prices slapped on the F4U-4 or the Spit14, or even the Ta152H, nobody ever complains about it even if they'd love to fly it.

People learn to cope with stuff. Complaints don't last forever, and it's not always "I'm discontent, so I'm gonna quit".

However, unlike the discontent(if any,) with perked planes, think about the consistent complaints regarding game play of late. Complaints about 'runners'. The horde. Etc.. these are what really make people quit.

Quote
Not only this, now that you've perked the runners favorite planes what do you think they are going to do? You got it, run more.

They already run as much as they can. The 'runniness' already reached a terminal point, so it basically makes no difference in gameplay at all.

However, the difference is, this time, the absolute number of 'runners' is gonna be reduced since those performers are perked.

Most people barely manage 1.0 k/d in the MA. If we assume they can maybe earn 1~1.5 perk point per sortie, the late war planes which cost 3 points are gonna take about two sorties to earn.

In other words, someone with a 1.0 k/d is gonna be flying a late-war plane every 3rd sortie they up(as compared to every sortie currently). The numbers are effectively down to 1/3rd of what it used to be. The rest of those people are flying those 'in-between' sorties in mid-war planes.

The runners may run more, but they're only 1/3rd the numbers they used to be. The rest 2/3rds will be flying in mid-war planes, which have a lower performance margin, and can be caught up and forced to fight much more easily.

Quote
They will be even less inclined to engage for fear of losing those perkies. So now you've only made one problem worse. Now these guys will do nothing but vulch, cherry pick and run.

Until they're caught and shot down.

Remember we're talking about the average level of pilots here. The good pilots escape from hectic fights even in Zekes. The average pilot pushes his luck so far, until he gets shot down once.

Then, his 3 points are lost. With his meager 1.0 k/d he'll have to fly other free planes once or twice to stack up some perks.

And every time those average pilots up mid-war free planes, is one less late-war plane in the MA.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 21, 2005, 03:25:48 PM

ahh oh well, live on LA7High...

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: LePaul on June 21, 2005, 05:09:08 PM

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

HiTech

True, I'm sure the Spit9 with hispanos or something else fast with cannons would swiftly take its place.

But I, again respectfully, disagree with you. When I fly online, its La7s everywhere.

Please note Im not the author of this post or whining about being shot down by them. I'm just stating they are everywhere.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Wmaker on June 21, 2005, 05:49:21 PM

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
LePaul: I disagree that they dominate the arena.

Start with one fact.

There will always be a most popular plane.

Right now the LA7 is the most popular by about 20k sorties to 17k sorties of the next plane.

I believe it is realy hard to say that a 15% difference is dominating.
Perking it would just make the next plane in line the the most popular plane, most probably with even a bigger % difference. And creating even more of an imbalance.

This is pretty close to what I think also but I'd slightly disagree.

Considering MA-style fighter combat the only disadvantage the La-7 has is its range and even that is arguable considering the distance between fields on most MA maps.

IMO the most important properties for MA-fighter are:

- Speed
- Maneuverability (turnrate mostly)
- Armament
- Climb rate/Acceleration/Power-to-Weight ratio

High alt performance is a plus but not that significant considering the typical fighting alts in the MA and there is a perk plane with not that good hi-alt performance (granded, still better than LA-7s), the Tempest.

IMO La-7 is from very good to excellent in all of these four categories.

The next most popular planes, Spitfires, P-51D, Typhoon and the Dora all lack the "very good/excellent- grade" in at least one of the above categories. So therefore I think the La-7 pilots would spread fairly evenly between these planes.

The fact that the LA-7 doesn't really have weaknesses for MA-style combat seems to be the problem here...IMO all other popular MA- rides suffer from at least one of those weaknesses.

IMO this is the biggest reason why LA-7 would get perked.

Personally, I really don't care whether it would get perked or not.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 21, 2005, 05:51:24 PM

At least the 3-cannon version should be perked.
There are planes with higher prod #s that the 3 cannon lala, that ARE perked.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Karash on June 21, 2005, 06:57:51 PM

Wait a second..there is balance in the MA?!?!?!

Why was I not told this!

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 21, 2005, 09:40:04 PM

I've heard legends say that HT is "the Chosen One".

Bring balance to the MA they say :D

Title: Why perk the LA-7?
Post by: Patches1 on June 22, 2005, 04:53:11 AM

If you really want to limit LA-7's, then bring back the ability to bring fuel levels to 25% at an airbase. With this ability you don't need to perk the LA-7 because it's fuel limitations will limit its abilities to fly the longer ranges that it enjoys today (ie...you cannot bring fuel levels below 75% at any airfield).

Secondarily, the fuel Strat targets become important for bombers to target again.

And, for those who will wish this not to occur...there are already 4 fuel bunkers on a small field alone ...I have no objection to putting up more...a target is a target...in the air (LA-7's)...or on the ground (fuel for LA-7's).

Just some thoughts...

Title: Re: Why perk the LA-7?
Post by: Overlag on June 22, 2005, 05:33:18 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Patches1
If you really want to limit LA-7's, then bring back the ability to bring fuel levels to 25% at an airbase. With this ability you don't need to perk the LA-7 because it's fuel limitations will limit its abilities to fly the longer ranges that it enjoys today (ie...you cannot bring fuel levels below 75% at any airfield).

Secondarily, the fuel Strat targets become important for bombers to target again.

And, for those who will wish this not to occur...there are already 4 fuel bunkers on a small field alone ...I have no objection to putting up more...a target is a target...in the air (LA-7's)...or on the ground (fuel for LA-7's).

Just some thoughts...

very true, however this will make everyone fly p51d's lol but yeah i do wish fuel porking would go.... that was "our" way to perk the la7/spits

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: hitech on June 22, 2005, 10:37:43 AM

From the current Tour.

Name Kills Planes %Total %Plane
Panzer IV H 30840 0 8.63% 0.00%
La-7 22736 22736 6.36% 8.68%
Ship Gunner 21950 0 6.14% 0.00%
N1K2 19411 19411 5.43% 7.41%
Ostwind 16088 0 4.50% 0.00%
Spitfire V 14953 14953 4.19% 5.71%
Typhoon IB 14221 14221 3.98% 5.43%
SeaFire 14148 14148 3.96% 5.40%
Tiger I 11732 0 3.28% 0.00%
P-51D 11158 11158 3.12% 4.26%
Bf 109G-10 10789 10789 3.02% 4.12%
Spitfire Mk I 9866 9866 2.76% 3.77%
Bf 110G-2 9699 9699 2.71% 3.70%
Fw 190D-9 8734 8734 2.44% 3.33%
F4U-1C 7748 7748 2.17% 2.96%
P-38J 7033 7033 1.97% 2.68%
Il-2 6685 6685 1.87% 2.55%
B-24J 6592 6592 1.85% 2.52%
F6F-5 6440 6440 1.80% 2.46%
F4U-1D 6311 6311 1.77% 2.41%
P-38L 6151 6151 1.72% 2.35%
Hurricane IIC 5450 5450 1.53% 2.08%
M-16 4827 0 1.35% 0.00%
A6M5b 4646 4646 1.30% 1.77%
C.205 4269 4269 1.19% 1.63%
Tempest 4120 4120 1.15% 1.57%
Fw 190A-8 4040 4040 1.13% 1.54%
Ki-84-Ia 3772 3772 1.06% 1.44%
PT Boat 3686 0 1.03% 0.00%
P-47-D30 3478 3478 0.97% 1.33%
Lancaster III 3462 3462 0.97% 1.32%
Bf 109F-4 3325 3325 0.93% 1.27%
La-5FN 3257 3257 0.91% 1.24%
Fw 190A-5 3049 3049 0.85% 1.16%
Yak-9U 2707 2707 0.76% 1.03%
B-26B 2574 2574 0.72% 0.98%
B-17G 2369 2369 0.66% 0.90%
A-20G 2311 2311 0.65% 0.88%
F4U-1 2266 2266 0.63% 0.86%
Me 262 2189 2189 0.61% 0.84%
Mosquito Mk V 2179 2179 0.61% 0.83%
Bf 109G-6 2106 2106 0.59% 0.80%
Chute 1393 0 0.39% 0.00%
Bf 109G-2 1293 1293 0.36% 0.49%
P-47D-11 1229 1229 0.34% 0.47%
FM2 1178 1178 0.33% 0.45%
P-47-D25 1123 1123 0.31% 0.43%
F4U-4 1101 1101 0.31% 0.42%
T-34 1101 0 0.31% 0.00%
P-38G 1084 1084 0.30% 0.41%
P-51B 1047 1047 0.29% 0.40%
M-3 966 0 0.27% 0.00%
Yak-9T 892 892 0.25% 0.34%
Ki-61 857 857 0.24% 0.33%
Fw 190F-8 832 832 0.23% 0.32%
Me 163B 812 812 0.23% 0.31%
LVTA2 752 0 0.21% 0.00%
Ju 88 700 700 0.20% 0.27%
M-8 699 0 0.20% 0.00%
LVTA4 651 0 0.18% 0.00%
Gunner 591 0 0.17% 0.00%
Spitfire Mk X 483 483 0.14% 0.18%
P-40E 456 456 0.13% 0.17%
Hurricane IID 426 426 0.12% 0.16%
P-40B 418 418 0.12% 0.16%
Ki-67 410 410 0.11% 0.16%
F4F-4 407 407 0.11% 0.16%
Ta 152H 404 404 0.11% 0.15%
A6M2 375 375 0.10% 0.14%
TBM-3 354 354 0.10% 0.14%
Bf 109E-4 338 338 0.09% 0.13%
Hurricane Mk 196 196 0.05% 0.07%
C-47A 195 195 0.05% 0.07%
Bf 110C-4b 195 195 0.05% 0.07%
Spitfire Mk I 171 171 0.05% 0.07%
C.202 166 166 0.05% 0.06%
Ju 87D-3 128 128 0.04% 0.05%
D3A1 122 122 0.03% 0.05%
SBD-5 121 121 0.03% 0.05%
Ar 234 112 112 0.03% 0.04%
Boston III 58 58 0.02% 0.02%
B5N2 56 56 0.02% 0.02%
Total 357259 261983 100.00% 100.00%

LePaul: I do not see any of your statements as a whine.

But I have a very hard time with your statement

Quote
But I, again respectfully, disagree with you. When I fly online, its La7s everywhere

When only about 1 out of 10 planes in the air is an LA7.

Title: Re: Why perk the LA-7?
Post by: JB73 on June 22, 2005, 11:06:58 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Patches1
If you really want to limit LA-7's, then bring back the ability to bring fuel levels to 25% at an airbase. With this ability you don't need to perk the LA-7 because it's fuel limitations will limit its abilities to fly the longer ranges that it enjoys today (ie...you cannot bring fuel levels below 75% at any airfield).

Secondarily, the fuel Strat targets become important for bombers to target again.

And, for those who will wish this not to occur...there are already 4 fuel bunkers on a small field alone ...I have no objection to putting up more...a target is a target...in the air (LA-7's)...or on the ground (fuel for LA-7's).

Just some thoughts...
i would have to disagree... it would not only limit the la7, but all of the LW planes.

in limiting 1 plane, you eliminate an entire planeset. don't forget many LW planes have even shorter legs than the la7.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 22, 2005, 11:09:44 AM

Two things:

HT you mispeled COAD

I honestly think that the reasons everyone thinks there are so many LA7s out there are:
1) The LA tag. See LA assume LA7 (I was going against VD last night and was convinced he was in a LA7. After 3 minutes I relized it was an LA5)
2) You are at an almost capped base or the deffenders just busted the cap.
3) People just look for them and make note that they saw one. Never mind the 10 spits around us, we are all focused on the LA7s
4) Could not land the vulches cause 1 lala made it of the runway and run the hero down (not reffering to anyone in this thread)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: mussie on June 22, 2005, 11:13:09 AM

So can someone tell me what criteria makes a plane perked

For example the F4U-1C vs N1K2

N1K2 not perked
Speed: sea-level (324mph with WEP)
Guns: 4x20mm 200rpg and 250rpg 900 total
Fuel duration: 44 minutes on internal fuel
Manoeuvrability: Outstanding

F4U-1C perked
Speed: sea-level (356mph with WEP)
Guns: 4x200 230rpg 920 total (granted the hispano is a better gun)
Fuel duration: 28 minutes on full internal fuel
Manoeuvrability: Quite good

The f4 has better guns and speed but the N1k has almost twice the range and better manoeuvrability. The N1k has the advantage of carrying less fuel as it has better range and there fore will manoeuvre even better

THE ABOVE INFO IS FROM SODAS WEB SITE
http://www.telusplanet.net/~dsoder/models.htm
BTW Nice work Soda

I have not flown either plan much so perhaps it in the flight that I would find the answer or is it the fact that the F4 can carry a fair wack of ord

On the LA7 subject I am not to fussed with em, hell now and then I up in Spit 1's and Hurri 1's just for a change.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: hitech on June 22, 2005, 11:52:22 AM

Oops wrong thread

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 22, 2005, 12:16:23 PM

I too would be interested in the criteria for perking planes.

Especially the cost also, considering the outrageous cost of a Spit 14.

Loooking at your figures HT
La-7 22736 22736 6.36% 8.68%
N1K2 19411 19411 5.43% 7.41%
Spitfire V 14953 14953 4.19% 5.71%
Typhoon IB 14221 14221 3.98% 5.43%

You realise if you ignore the Nik the closest plane to the Lala has 8000 less sorties?
Seems unbalanced to me?
Your whole premise is incorrect.

LA7 22735
NIK 19411

Then a lot around 13000 - 14000

So yup I would say it dominates (#'s wise).

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 22, 2005, 12:16:23 PM

Still, it's good info HT. We appreciate it.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: thrila on June 22, 2005, 12:42:38 PM

oooo... the spit IX has slipped to 8th. Maybe it will continue it's slide and drop out of the top ten in a few months. I do find it bizzare people call for the spit IX to be perked when it's useage is less than the spit V/seafire

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SuperDud on June 22, 2005, 01:22:23 PM

Quote
Originally posted by mussie
So can someone tell me what criteria makes a plane perked

For example the F4U-1C vs N1K2

N1K2 not perked
Speed: sea-level (324mph with WEP)
Guns: 4x20mm 200rpg and 250rpg 900 total
Fuel duration: 44 minutes on internal fuel
Manoeuvrability: Outstanding

F4U-1C perked
Speed: sea-level (356mph with WEP)
Guns: 4x200 230rpg 920 total (granted the hispano is a better gun)
Fuel duration: 28 minutes on full internal fuel
Manoeuvrability: Quite good

The f4 has better guns and speed but the N1k has almost twice the range and better manoeuvrability. The N1k has the advantage of carrying less fuel as it has better range and there fore will manoeuvre even better

But you forgot to mention the DT's which should automatically be factored in b/c if you need them you take them. Plus, manuverability isn't everything. The F4U can simply use speed adv to zoom above the NIK and control the fight, I've done it plenty of times. And in the right hands amd equally well flown F4U will take the NIK 50% of the time in a dogfight. This is assuming all things equal of coarse.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: mussie on June 22, 2005, 02:11:20 PM

Again from Soda's page

F4U-1C
Fuel duration is reasonable, 28 minutes on full internal fuel with the option to add up to two drop tanks that each add 18 minutes more, for a total of up to 65 minutes

N1KJ
Fuel duration is excellent at 44 minutes on internal alone, with the option to add another 24 minutes in a drop tank.

N1KJ
44 + 24 = 68 Minutes

F4U-1C
28 + 36 = 65 Minutes

With the DT's they are almost equal in flight time

But again I have not flown either plane much. so I cant comment on them based on experience.

I will have to try them off line (save the perks) and see if I can feel the difference in the way they fly.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SuperDud on June 22, 2005, 02:42:01 PM

Quote
Originally posted by mussie
Again from Soda's page

F4U-1C
Fuel duration is reasonable, 28 minutes on full internal fuel with the option to add up to two drop tanks that each add 18 minutes more, for a total of up to 65 minutes

N1KJ
Fuel duration is excellent at 44 minutes on internal alone, with the option to add another 24 minutes in a drop tank.

N1KJ
44 + 24 = 68 Minutes

F4U-1C
28 + 36 = 65 Minutes

With the DT's they are almost equal in flight time

But again I have not flown either plane much. so I cant comment on them based on experience.

I will have to try them off line (save the perks) and see if I can feel the difference in the way they fly.

LoL, I don't fly them either to be honest. The few times I did it was Redd and myself testing out their abilities in a dogfight. The fights were even enough that it came down to who made the 1st mistake(usually me lol). None of this was scientific, but from what we found, the nik had the adv for the first 20 secs of the fight. Then, surprisingly to me, at slower speeds the F4U went blow for blow with the NIK. When that hog gets slow it can drop flaps and gear and has a nasty overshoot in the right hands. Wasn't out to start a fight or prove you wrong bud. I just rememebr uppin an F4UD once with full fuel and I remember thinking that the thing could fly forever, the numbers above just didn't seem right to me.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: mussie on June 22, 2005, 03:03:57 PM

I wasn't getting aggro there super, there is more to the planes than the numbers. thanks for your input

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: LePaul on June 22, 2005, 04:55:18 PM

So how is it you reply to my posts here but not in the Bug Forums? :)

Seriously, when Im in my little area of the map, its almost all I see. Your posting of arena stats is nifty and all...but doesnt exactly represent what I see in the areas I fly.

We agree to disagree, I suppose.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Captain Virgil Hilts on June 22, 2005, 06:24:02 PM

The reasons people complain about the LA-7:

1. Numbers. Many almost never fly a sortie without seeing at least a couple.

2. Performance. There are planes that have no where near the LA-7's performance at low altitudes and in the standard MA environment that are perked.

3. Useage. Meaning the way it is used the majority of the time. Most often, the LA-7 is used to cherry pick people out of a good fight. Or to kill them after they win a good fight. Or to force a single plane to face a horde of friends of the LA-7 pilot. And finally, to attempt a cherry pick and then run, spoiling a good fight, usually with an HO.

The three planes I see most these days are the LA-7, the Spit V (now that many know about the revised performance with higher boost), and the Tempest. They all have a decided edge over a lot of the planes in the MA Quake with planes environment.

Will perking the LA-7 solve the balance issue? Possibly. Is perking the LA-7 fair on the basis of performance and numbers? Going by the supposedly valid reasons for perking other planes, YES.

Let's face it, the MA has nothing at all to do with history or reality. It is for some, likely the majority, Quake with planes. That's sad. But it's true. More and more I look forward to events, and TOD.

These days I look at what plane killed me, and realize that when I consider the plane and the circumstances, it is a hollow victory in my opinion when I get killed by a Quake pilot in a Quake plane.

My secret to enjoying the game despite the Quake pilots in their Quake rides is knowing that under most circumstances, I kill them when they aren't in their Quake ride, and I hold a positive K/D ratio against most everything but the Quake planes. And usually when I die to them, I start out with at least a marked disadvantage to them in one way or another.

It ain't that I'm all that good, I'm not. But I figure I ain't all that bad either.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Guppy35 on June 22, 2005, 06:27:00 PM

Interesting how far the Spit IX has fallen down the list.

Now about that clipped wing LFIXe? :)

Dan/CorkyJr

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 23, 2005, 01:33:41 AM

Most fly La7 and not La5 because only
when ENY is in use La7 is unavailable
quicker than La5.

Why they should use a plane with lesser
performance than the other one when
both planes are available at no cost ?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 23, 2005, 08:27:40 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
Most fly La7 and not La5 because only
when ENY is in use La7 is unavailable
quicker than La5.

Why they should use a plane with lesser
performance than the other one when
both planes are available at no cost ?

Because speed is not everything?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 23, 2005, 09:27:52 AM

Aha ! :eek:

But speed helps alot.

And what's the reason then to prefer the
La7 over the La5 ?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: mussie on June 23, 2005, 09:44:53 AM

7 has three Cannons
5 has 2

7 is faster
5 is smaller and harder to hit

I fly the 5 a bit cause its small and nimble

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SlapShot on June 23, 2005, 09:46:09 AM

Sure ... perk the La-7 and take it out of the picture ... and what has already been pointed out in this thread and the other 1,000,000,000 threads of the same topic ... another plane will slide into its place.

From the data that HT presented, the next plane that would take over the crown would be the N1K. oooooo ... shudder !!!

You would think that if the La-7 is as good and as prevelent as everyone makes it out to be, then we all would be getting into some real good fights ... but it appears that most really don't want to actually fight ... they want to hit and run and get real upset when the "run" factor is eliminated by an La-7 in the same airspace.

I can't remember the last time I lost a 1 v 1 against the La-7 or the N1K. The deaths that I experience at the hands of these planes is usually a "pick" when engaged with someone else, but that is no different than all the times that I get picked by P-51s, P-38s, 109s, 190s, etc.

Grow a pair.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: LYNX on June 23, 2005, 10:25:00 AM

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
From the current Tour.

Name Kills Planes %Total %Plane
Panzer IV H 30840 0 8.63% 0.00%
La-7 22736 22736 6.36% 8.68%
Ship Gunner 21950 0 6.14% 0.00%
N1K2 19411 19411 5.43% 7.41%
Ostwind 16088 0 4.50% 0.00%
Spitfire V 14953 14953 4.19% 5.71%
Typhoon IB 14221 14221 3.98% 5.43%
SeaFire 14148 14148 3.96% 5.40%
Tiger I 11732 0 3.28% 0.00%
P-51D 11158 11158 3.12% 4.26%
Bf 109G-10 10789 10789 3.02% 4.12%
Spitfire Mk I 9866 9866 2.76% 3.77%
Bf 110G-2 9699 9699 2.71% 3.70%
Fw 190D-9 8734 8734 2.44% 3.33%
F4U-1C 7748 7748 2.17% 2.96%
P-38J 7033 7033 1.97% 2.68%
Il-2 6685 6685 1.87% 2.55%
B-24J 6592 6592 1.85% 2.52%
F6F-5 6440 6440 1.80% 2.46%
F4U-1D 6311 6311 1.77% 2.41%
P-38L 6151 6151 1.72% 2.35%
Hurricane IIC 5450 5450 1.53% 2.08%
M-16 4827 0 1.35% 0.00%
A6M5b 4646 4646 1.30% 1.77%
C.205 4269 4269 1.19% 1.63%
Tempest 4120 4120 1.15% 1.57%
Fw 190A-8 4040 4040 1.13% 1.54%
Ki-84-Ia 3772 3772 1.06% 1.44%
PT Boat 3686 0 1.03% 0.00%
P-47-D30 3478 3478 0.97% 1.33%
Lancaster III 3462 3462 0.97% 1.32%
Bf 109F-4 3325 3325 0.93% 1.27%
La-5FN 3257 3257 0.91% 1.24%
Fw 190A-5 3049 3049 0.85% 1.16%
Yak-9U 2707 2707 0.76% 1.03%
B-26B 2574 2574 0.72% 0.98%
B-17G 2369 2369 0.66% 0.90%
A-20G 2311 2311 0.65% 0.88%
F4U-1 2266 2266 0.63% 0.86%
Me 262 2189 2189 0.61% 0.84%
Mosquito Mk V 2179 2179 0.61% 0.83%
Bf 109G-6 2106 2106 0.59% 0.80%
Chute 1393 0 0.39% 0.00%
Bf 109G-2 1293 1293 0.36% 0.49%
P-47D-11 1229 1229 0.34% 0.47%
FM2 1178 1178 0.33% 0.45%
P-47-D25 1123 1123 0.31% 0.43%
F4U-4 1101 1101 0.31% 0.42%
T-34 1101 0 0.31% 0.00%
P-38G 1084 1084 0.30% 0.41%
P-51B 1047 1047 0.29% 0.40%
M-3 966 0 0.27% 0.00%
Yak-9T 892 892 0.25% 0.34%
Ki-61 857 857 0.24% 0.33%
Fw 190F-8 832 832 0.23% 0.32%
Me 163B 812 812 0.23% 0.31%
LVTA2 752 0 0.21% 0.00%
Ju 88 700 700 0.20% 0.27%
M-8 699 0 0.20% 0.00%
LVTA4 651 0 0.18% 0.00%
Gunner 591 0 0.17% 0.00%
Spitfire Mk X 483 483 0.14% 0.18%
P-40E 456 456 0.13% 0.17%
Hurricane IID 426 426 0.12% 0.16%
P-40B 418 418 0.12% 0.16%
Ki-67 410 410 0.11% 0.16%
F4F-4 407 407 0.11% 0.16%
Ta 152H 404 404 0.11% 0.15%
A6M2 375 375 0.10% 0.14%
TBM-3 354 354 0.10% 0.14%
Bf 109E-4 338 338 0.09% 0.13%
Hurricane Mk 196 196 0.05% 0.07%
C-47A 195 195 0.05% 0.07%
Bf 110C-4b 195 195 0.05% 0.07%
Spitfire Mk I 171 171 0.05% 0.07%
C.202 166 166 0.05% 0.06%
Ju 87D-3 128 128 0.04% 0.05%
D3A1 122 122 0.03% 0.05%
SBD-5 121 121 0.03% 0.05%
Ar 234 112 112 0.03% 0.04%
Boston III 58 58 0.02% 0.02%
B5N2 56 56 0.02% 0.02%
Total 357259 261983 100.00% 100.00%

LePaul: I do not see any of your statements as a whine.

But I have a very hard time with your statement

When only about 1 out of 10 planes in the air is an LA7. [/B]

There are Lies, damed Lies and Statistics.... but thanks anyways. No offence meant by next statement but HTC you gotta come in the game and check it out. It's getting ridiculous at times. Just the other night there was a raid by 15 (lost count at 15) to 25 LA7's, on a base I was defending. Yer ok 15 to 25 Hurri 1's would have had the same effect against the 8 to 10 of us but it shows a "Mind set".

You say 1 in 10 planes is a LA7. Well, take your XYZ jabo over an enemy field and count the buggers. Is it 1 in 10 because 7 guys are taking 15 min to get somewhere while the LA7 up's and inside 1 min has equal speed / alt chacing you into his 2 friends?

Who uses LA7's the most and what for?

I suspect newbies use LA's the most and it's becoming a crutch.
I encounter them by guy's mostly chacing me down after bashing their base. Forcing me into a 2,3 or 4 on 1 situation. I also see LA7's alot on short field hops as active fighters.

Can I kill them?

If the LA7 don't run and it's 1 on 1 I win 99% of the time becuse they are newbies or guys that don't know alot. I'll tell you something else. Those LA7's are bullet proof soaking up the ammo. Devilishly hard to kill at time. (my vid card is ok & PC is Ok)

It's without doubt and, I suspect the majority feel the same, the only none perked plane with megga gun / damage package. It is like a darn dragster. The sprint speed is unequalled.

Spit 14 is perked yet the LA7 isn't. The F4UC1 is perked yet the LA7 isn't. The TA152 is perked yet the LA7 isn't. All 3 have their individual reasonse to be perked yet the LA7 doesn't?

Sorry friend but alot of folks feel different. In my mind the "Sprint speed" is enough to get the LA7 a mild perk let alone the 3 gun damage pack.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 23, 2005, 10:39:59 AM

Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot

I just wanted to quote your sig

humble : Those of you who are "plane dependent" will always worry about what the other guy is in...the rest of us just worry about WHO the other guy is.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 23, 2005, 10:57:18 AM

La-7 22736 22736 6.36% 8.68%
N1K2 19411 19411 5.43% 7.41%
Spitfire V 14953 14953 4.19% 5.71%
Typhoon IB 14221 14221 3.98% 5.43%
SeaFire 14148 14148 3.96% 5.40%

Seafire - Used from CV so would expect to see high usage.
Typhoon - I suspect a lot of guys like me transistioned from the Spit IX to the Tiffy, as the MA became later war orientated.
Spit V - Well, it's a dam sight better than the mongrel IX.
N1K - Normally see a lot during base defence, prob because of its guns.

Onto the stats - (round to nearest thousand for ease)
La7 -23
N1K - 19
Chasing pack - 15

Ignoring the N1K the La7 has 8000 more sorties than the chasing pack.
By the end of the tour this should be closer to 11000 if current usage holds up.
i.e. up to HT's post on the 22nd 8000 diff, so 8000/22*8(days remaining).

So 1 plane being used 11000 more times than the main chasing pack isn't a problem, I guess we have different thoughts on what OVERUSE is.
Considering overuse is one of the reasons for perking.

If it were couple of thousand or so I don't believe we'd have threads like this.

You really need to play the game peak time to see what people are talking about.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 23, 2005, 11:04:27 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
La-7 22736 22736 6.36% 8.68%
N1K2 19411 19411 5.43% 7.41%
Spitfire V 14953 14953 4.19% 5.71%
Typhoon IB 14221 14221 3.98% 5.43%
SeaFire 14148 14148 3.96% 5.40%

Seafire - Used from CV so would expect to see high usage.
Typhoon - I suspect a lot of guys like me transistioned from the Spit IX to the Tiffy, as the MA became later war orientated.
Spit V - Well, it's a dam sight better than the mongrel IX.
N1K - Normally see a lot during base defence, prob because of its guns.

Onto the stats - (round to nearest thousand for ease)
La7 -23
N1K - 19
Chasing pack - 15

Ignoring the N1K the La7 has 8000 more sorties than the chasing pack.
By the end of the tour this should be closer to 11000 if current usage holds up.
i.e. up to HT's post on the 22nd 8000 diff, so 8000/22*8(days remaining).

So 1 plane being used 11000 more times than the main chasing pack isn't a problem, I guess we have different thoughts on what OVERUSE is.
Considering overuse is one of the reasons for perking.

Don't forget that half those lalas died on the runway vulched by the people that want them perked.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 23, 2005, 11:05:59 AM

Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Don't forget that half those lalas died on the runway vulched by the people that want them perked.

Prove it.
HT posted hard cold facts, your guessing, surmising, or assuming.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 23, 2005, 11:31:55 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Prove it.
HT posted hard cold facts, your guessing, surmising, or assuming.

:lol I play the game too you know. My observations are a guess as much as yours are. I can tell you for sure that when I see a full darbar and a field blinking, I will try an up a lala. After dieing on the runway repeatedly, I will make it off the grownd and kill a couple of uber non lala flying vulchers. So, I know I am contributing to the number of lala sorties.

Seems to me that you are using the hard cold facts to support your cause. HT gave numbers. Up to you to interprit them anyway you want.
Quote
Typhoon - I suspect a lot of guys like me transistioned from the Spit IX to the Tiffy, as the MA became later war orientated.

Hmmm, what can catch a Typh after the typh is done vulc. . . .er supressing the enemy? A D9? nah, the Typh would probably kill it in a turn fight. A 51? it would never excelerate on time to catch the typh or avoid the vulchers. Hmmm, what else is there that could stop you from getting your WTFGs? PERK IT!!!!! NOT FAIR!!!!!

I think I see where you are comming from.

Answer this question honestly. Would you rather have a hord of spits chasing you or a horde of lalas? I am guessing sppits cause you would not have to wory about them catching you right?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SlapShot on June 23, 2005, 12:10:03 PM

Considering overuse is one of the reasons for perking.

I don't think that "overuse" would ever be used, on its own, to determine if something needs to be perked or not.

"Impact" is probably the real determining factor ... and from what I can see ... the La-7 does not have a tremendous impact on the MA.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: mussie on June 23, 2005, 12:56:22 PM

I don't want to slap anyone in the face here but:

- I dont really have an issue with the LA (mind you the other night I had 5 sitting behind the B24 I was tail gunning for, got 2 of em)
- I don't really understand or agree with how perk points are set ( see my bit about the 1-c vs. the N1k)

So anyway:

HT if you are listening,

Why not ban the LA for a Tour, Just to see how it would change the MA and the way in which the community would react to the new environment.

The community's reaction would be interesting.

I think that like someone else said, the N1k would become the problem plane, but that's just my uneducated opinion.

You know what they say, a change is as good as a holiday....

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 23, 2005, 01:08:11 PM

Quote
Originally posted by mussie
I don't want to slap anyone in the face here but:

Why not ban the LA for a Tour, Just to see how it would change the MA and the way in which the community would react to the new environment.

The community's reaction would be interesting.

I think that like someone else said, the N1k would become the problem plane, but that's just my uneducated opinion.

You know what they say, a change is as good as a holiday....

:rofl :rofl :rofl I am all for it. Only the following tour ban the D9.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on June 23, 2005, 02:12:38 PM

"You would think that if the La-7 is as good and as prevelent as everyone makes it out to be, then we all would be getting into some real good fights ... but it appears that most really don't want to actually fight ... they want to hit and run and get real upset when the "run" factor is eliminated by an La-7 in the same airspace.

I can't remember the last time I lost a 1 v 1 against the La-7 or the N1K."

sorry Slap, id love to fight the horde of la7s, but most run...guess i should be flying near you more with all the 1vs1 you get with them and they dont run away. only problem i have with the damn thing is, there are to many of them...numbers...not supposed "uberness" compared to all other aircraft. which goes back to point, the number of them was my issue, HT pointed out, that there are only a few more thousand on average, than others during tour. guess its just my dumb luck to run into horde or 5+ la7 on nightly basis

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 23, 2005, 02:37:24 PM

Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
:lol I play the game too you know. My observations are a guess as much as yours are. I can tell you for sure that when I see a full darbar and a field blinking, I will try an up a lala. After dieing on the runway repeatedly, I will make it off the grownd and kill a couple of uber non lala flying vulchers. So, I know I am contributing to the number of lala sorties.

Seems to me that you are using the hard cold facts to support your cause. HT gave numbers. Up to you to interprit them anyway you want.

Hmmm, what can catch a Typh after the typh is done vulc. . . .er supressing the enemy? A D9? nah, the Typh would probably kill it in a turn fight. A 51? it would never excelerate on time to catch the typh or avoid the vulchers. Hmmm, what else is there that could stop you from getting your WTFGs? PERK IT!!!!! NOT FAIR!!!!!

I think I see where you are comming from.

Answer this question honestly. Would you rather have a hord of spits chasing you or a horde of lalas? I am guessing sppits cause you would not have to wory about them catching you right?

Actually a D9 will catch a Tiff, so will 2 or 3 other planes.

Using hard cold facts to support a cause is what your supposed to do, not guess or assume. Cold hard fact, if it's usage continues it should be aroud 11,000 sorties MORE than the chasing pack by the end of tour.
Thats a frick load of Lalas no matter how you look at it.

The only problem I have with the La7 is the fact that there are other LESS capable perked, so why should the La7 escape?

As has been pointed out, overall it is very good in most if not all categories, yet less capable aircraft are perked.

We used to be able to keep them in check by porking the fuel, I'll bet if HT looks, the amount of La7 increased a lot after the fuel porking was stopped.

I actually tried one a few nights ago, and it's a disgrace that thing isn't even perked, even lightly.

I wouldn't ban it for a tour, I would lightly perk the std La7, and slightly higher for the 3 cannon version, then see what happens.

But not my game to change, I guess when it becomes Lalas high then some people will be happy.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 23, 2005, 03:07:12 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually a D9 will catch a Tiff, so will 2 or 3 other planes.

Never said it would not. I said it will die when it does

Quote

Using hard cold facts to support a cause is what your supposed to do, not guess or assume. Cold hard fact, if it's usage continues it should be aroud 11,000 sorties MORE than the chasing pack by the end of tour.
Thats a frick load of Lalas no matter how you look at it.

The numbers are a fact. Their meaning is not. They don't tell you what kind of a sorty it was. A big number of them would be desparate attempts to deffend a base. On a tyff or D9 however, the same cold facts mean something else. No one in his right mind would up a D9 to defend a base being vulched.

Quote

The only problem I have with the La7 is the fact that there are other LESS capable perked, so why should the La7 escape?

Understood but why do you really really care?

Quote

As has been pointed out, overall it is very good in most if not all categories, yet less capable aircraft are perked.
We used to be able to keep them in check by porking the fuel, I'll bet if HT
looks, the amount of La7 increased a lot after the fuel porking was stopped.

Its fast, nothing more. If you only bring this up because of other planes being perked, then why go into the troble of porking the fuel to limit its usage? Obviusly you have other reasons you ask for the perks and not what you are stating here.

Try to answer my question if you want. Would you rather have 5 spits chasing you or 5 lalas and why?

Also, if the lala was made in the US, would any of these threads have ever been started?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Urchin on June 23, 2005, 03:21:34 PM

I think most of the problem people have with the La-7 isn't actually the La-7.. it is the Spits and Nikis following the La-7.

All by itself the La-7 is a threat to every plane in the game (it does at least one thing better than every other plane in the game, most likely all things), but typically the people fly the La-7 like a jousting knight rides a horse. So you are forced to manuever to avoid giving the La-7 an easy shot, then forced to tangle with multiple planes while avoiding cherry-pick passes from La-7s.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on June 23, 2005, 05:23:19 PM

You know the shame in the stats HT posted, it's not the top 15 aircraft and their % usage, it's the fact that there are ~35 other fighters who get less than 2% use each. That's a pretty long list of "useless" aircraft that is likely to just get longer unless they add some more high-end-late-war aircraft. About the only time I see one of those low end aircraft used as a "perk generator" is when they are headed to harvest at a well established vulch, not in some sort of actually competitive fight (rare to see one in an even odds situation).

But why handicap yourself with something lessor, it would mean less fun for most players (less success). The numbers speak for themselves there are "Better" aircraft and they are used more frequently, that will always be the case, it is the community speaking. That said, why does the "average" have to be so high as to make so many aircraft obsolete? Why couldn't the bar be lowered a bit to give more options that would be only slightly better, or slightly worse, than the average?

-Soda

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: LYNX on June 23, 2005, 07:16:15 PM

The LA7 has "sprint speed" thats unsuppased.
The LA7has megga gun package.
The LA7 takes loads of damage.
The LA7 is without doubt a crutch plane.
The LA7 is used by arcaders with no concept of ACM, as a whole.
The LA7 dominates the arena in it's use....period!
The LA7 pisses me off...period.
:rolleyes:

So why are the Spit 14, F4u1C, TA 152 all perked and the LA isn't?
Would it be that in there "ALT" class there a bit too good?
Would it be that there gun packs are megga?
Would it be psychological factor.........?

No one like being beat by a pissy arsed newbie in a LA7 so i'll keep paying my $15 to kill the buggers.

I wonder if HTC has consulted shrinks to actively turn our keys and wind us up. Watch us pump $ after $ to kill LA7's. Give us a challenge! Give the newbies (mostly kids with no concept or period plane set) the chance to get a kill.

I just freakin wonder;)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 23, 2005, 09:43:20 PM

Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Never said it would not. I said it will die when it does

The numbers are a fact. Their meaning is not. They don't tell you what kind of a sorty it was. A big number of them would be desparate attempts to deffend a base. On a tyff or D9 however, the same cold facts mean something else. No one in his right mind would up a D9 to defend a base being vulched.

Understood but why do you really really care?

Its fast, nothing more. If you only bring this up because of other planes being perked, then why go into the troble of porking the fuel to limit its usage? Obviusly you have other reasons you ask for the perks and not what you are stating here.

Try to answer my question if you want. Would you rather have 5 spits chasing you or 5 lalas and why?

Also, if the lala was made in the US, would any of these threads have ever been started?

Wouldn't want ANY plane chasing me if I had the option. But yes I agree.

Wouldn't care if it was made in Outer Mongolia, still feel the same way.

Fast only?
It accelerates like a Ferrari
Turns well even at speed
3 cannon version is good gun package (only around 350 made)

No, other reason, just pointed out that a way they were controlled by US (ie porking fuel) was removed.

The perk thing was just as an example to show were HTs whole perking premises falls apart.
i.e. #'s made - other perked planes had more than 350 (3 cannon version) made
i.e. to limit usage - well his own published stats blow that away.
i.e. when made - 1944 for a La7?, plenty of perked 1944 aircraft.

Put it this way if it's usage continues at current rate by end of tour it will have over 31000 sorites.
Closest one in the main pack will be at 20,000.
Yes #s wise it DOMINATES in usage, one of the reasons for perking I beleive.

I'll bet now - unchecked it will continue to increase.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: RTO on June 23, 2005, 11:29:47 PM

Kev367th...........Bullzeye !! >S<

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 24, 2005, 12:03:39 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Matrix
Kev367th...........Bullzeye !! >S<

Thanks.

I actually think HT made a mistake posting the usage figures, it shows just how bad things are getting.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: RTO on June 24, 2005, 05:44:44 AM

I couldn't agree more, nothing like a self-inflicted gun shot wound. As with many other aspects of this game that have been addressed in these forums by the subscribing community, some which have validity, this whole discussion is just another to add to that growing list.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 24, 2005, 06:47:15 AM

Somebody asked the real newbie
question ever "What plane do i use
first in this game ?"

Many tell Spit V or IX. Why ? Nobody
says La7. I wonder about. it ist fast, has the
gameruler 20mm and maneuver
fantastic. La7 is the newbie plane of the game.

:rolleyes:

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: LYNX on June 24, 2005, 07:03:07 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
Somebody asked the real newbie
question ever "What plane do i use
first in this game ?"

Many tell Spit V or IX. Why ? Nobody
says La7. I wonder about. it ist fast, has the
gameruler 20mm and maneuver
fantastic. La7 is the newbie plane of the game.

:rolleyes:

In Bishville you often hear the newbs ask whats the fastest plane or whats the best plane. Increasingly the reply says LA7. Not all the time but increasingly. It kinda annouys me because the best plane is the one you can land in:aok

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Overlag on June 24, 2005, 07:38:52 AM

fact is, the more that fly it, the more that feel the need to fly it.

IE me, i became fed up getting chased down/out performed in my 190a5/109f/g2 so now, half the time i up a la7 so at least i stand a chance in the la7 horde.

Its a runaway effect. The longer HT leaves it till they perk, the harder it will be on the players here. I say perk it before the new advert goes out, so all those two weekers that come in have to EARN the right to fly it, and all other top planes.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 24, 2005, 12:36:12 PM

But there is a problem of balance between country sets. The problem with perking stuff is that it always meets a 'fairness' issue.

Some people fly some planes for its performance, but some others truly like that plane and it's history. The 479th love their P-38s, the 13th TAS love their Mustangs, the JBs love their 190s and 109s.

In all fairness, to the true fans of that certain aircraft, being limited in their favorite "ultimate aircraft" while others go scot-free to roam and become the scourge of MA is very unfair.

That is exactly what happened to the Spit14 and the F4U-4. Right before the Spit14 was announced in AH, there was a sort of a 'panic attack' amongst the community that it'll become the new dweeb plane of the arena. The typical "outrun everything, outturn everything" plane.

The Spit14, in all sense of fairness, has been treated unfairly. It never even got a chance to be evaluated in the arena.

It started out as a 60+ perk plane right from the beginning, and for the RAF fans, their only 'high-performance' plane they have is the Typhoon, introduced in '41, upgraded to a '44 version. All the rest are Spitfires - granted, powerful planes they are, but the SpitV is a '41 plane('42 now that they got 16+), and the Spit9 we have is a '42 version.

Look at the fans of other countries.

The Bf109G-10 is essentially modelled to K-4 standards. One of the best accelerating/climbing planes in the MA, and THE best pure interceptor plane n the game - free.

The P-51D, perhaps AH's most formiddable multipurpose plane with a large range of ord to choose from, great speed at both alt and deck - free.

The Fw190D-9, also a very fast aircraft, 370mph+ at deck, exceptional performance at high speeds, powerful armament, and a plane that's even better suited for multiple engagements than the G-10 - free.

And there are a lot of other choices in the planeset which destabilize and ruin arena balance in their own way. Despite the fact that they aren't high-performance as fighters, those planes are high-performance as MA aircraft in terms of ground attack. A good example in being the P-38L and the P-47D - which the existence of these planes as perk-free aircraft makes it almost foolhardy to take up the true 'jabo' planes of WW2.

A-20s, IL-2s, Mossies.. heck, even the mid-sized bombers are worthless compared to the P-38L or the P-47D-40.

...

Perking the La-7 alone will remedy SOME of the problems we feel, no doubt about that. But in the long run, like HT mentions, it's gonna hurt the game more.

All the La-types will move over to either the next fastest planes or next easiest planes - namely, the La usage will be spread over to the 190D, P-51D, G-10... or the Spitfires. We'll see a heck of less Las, but then we'll see a LOT more of planes which can do what the La can do - namely, run away, play timid, do nothing but HOs, etc etc..

The entire post-'44 section has to be perked. Not as high as to remove them from the game entirely, but just enough to make it so that their numbers in the air are roughly simular with the numbers of pre-'44 aircraft flying around in the MA at the same time.

If we meet 10 enemy planes at a given sortie, and 8 of them are '44 planes and 2 of them being 'vets' who prefer mid-war planes -> it must be made so that 6~7 of them are '43 planes, and 3~4 of them are post-'44.

In other words, perking aircraft should not be aimed at removing a certain plane from the arena.

Rather, it must be done in order to increase the range of 'MA competitiveness' to a longer span of timeline. In an arena dominated by '44/'45 planes, all the rest of the planes are effectively obsolete.

....

In other words, I want to see an arena where La-5FNs are as many as the La-7s, P-51Bs are as many as the P-51Ds, P-38G/Js are as many as the P-38Ls, and Fw190A-8s are as common as Fw190D-9s.. etc.

People currently only fly the "best" of the version/variants. This is the real problem in the MA. These "best" of the versions, as long as they are free, are the ones that have the potential to be "next in line" as HT mentions.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 24, 2005, 12:56:48 PM

Sorry long post. I always get carried away.

Simply put,

spread out the usages of variants by introducing perks to the 'best version'.

For example:

Quote
* Fw190 usage ratio in the MA

D-9: 55% (3.33)
A-8: 25% (1.54)
A-5: 20% (1.16)

* Bf109 usage ratio in the MA

G-10: 60% (4.12)
G-6 : 12% (0.80)
G-2 : 7% (0.49)
F-4 : 19% (1.27)
E-4 : 2% (0.13)

I want to slap 3~5 perks on the Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10, so that these figures can be changed to;

Quote
* Fw190 usage ratio in the MA

D-9: 30%
A-8: 35%
A-5: 25%

* Bf109 usage ratio in the MA

G-10: 25%
G-6 : 30%
G-2 : 25%
F-4 : 15%
E-4 : 5%

.. and same thing with all planes. Late war versions coexisting with earlier the 'next best' versions in simular numbers. So, if you take up a Fw190A-5, half of the Las you meet are La-5Fns, half of the 109s are G-2s or G-6s, half of the P-51s are P-51Bs, and etc etc..

Cut down on the numbers of the 'best versions', make them coexist with previous versions in comparable numbers - and immediately, the fight is a whole lot better.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 24, 2005, 12:58:02 PM

Kweassa, that's the same suggest i asked
month before to limit uber-plane use.

Quote
Plane Standart use

My suggest for new planes and planes in use.
1. Bring in more mid war (1942-1943) equipment and make them as standart use
2. Early war (1939 - 1941) equipment is for balance side strength and field use,
3. Perk all late war(1944 - 1945) equipment with suitable perk points

And that is what the community answered
me

Quote
So, you'd like to limit everyone's choices to the era and planes you prefer. An outstanding idea, really. And an original one as well. Should we all get a permission slip to fly as well? And while we're at it, why not regulations on the number of planes and how high they can fly?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kweassa on June 24, 2005, 01:07:15 PM

Would you like to become a martyr with me? :D

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Overlag on June 24, 2005, 01:16:30 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Sorry long post. I always get carried away.

Simply put,

spread out the usages of variants by introducing perks to the 'best version'.

For example:

I want to slap 3~5 perks on the Fw190D-9 and the Bf109G-10, so that these figures can be changed to;

.. and same thing with all planes. Late war versions coexisting with earlier the 'next best' versions in simular numbers. So, if you take up a Fw190A-5, half of the Las you meet are La-5Fns, half of the 109s are G-2s or G-6s, half of the P-51s are P-51Bs, and etc etc..

Cut down on the numbers of the 'best versions', make them coexist with previous versions in comparable numbers - and immediately, the fight is a whole lot better.

EXACTLY WHAT I WANT TO SEE

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 24, 2005, 01:28:52 PM

When it must be ... :D

Because i like the game and i am not proud of the tendency to become a shooter game in the moment

i think HT don't realized that so far.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on June 24, 2005, 05:23:44 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Sorry long post. I always get carried away.

Simply put,

spread out the usages of variants by introducing perks to the 'best version'.

A crazy idea, maybe not for the MA but it would be interesting to see it in action:

Why not just have a free-market-economy based on % of sorties. Set a target use % and everytime someone presses FLY they effectively vote on whether the aircraft is worth the cost. Less Use = Less Cost, More Use = More Cost. Some that are under target use % aircraft could get big perk bonuses using the inverse of the cost scale. Good aircraft that are difficult to use would probably remain cheap, amybe an enticement to give them a try. Some currently perked aircraft that players feel are over-priced compared to "Free" ones would price out at a point the community determines based on if people feel they deserve the cost.

Not saying there wouldn't be some hardships, the late war uber-rides would likely always carry a cost. That said, most have earlier war alternatives that right now see almost no attention. Just look at the 109G10 vs. the 109G2 and G6 as examples from HT's stats, no reason those alternatives are so un-used when really they offer different mixes of the same abilities as the G10 (G2 almost same performance, G6 same firepower). It wouldn't just concentrate everyone in the "next-best" ride since that would just influence the cost over time. People would find "sleeper" aircraft that were cheap or pay the price to always fly the best (and eventually run out of points). We are talking pretty minor perks too, make it get steep for harsh over-use (maybe 20 points) but mild (1-2 points) for something just a "bit" better. Nobody is going to care about a couple of perk points but might leave the 20 point La7 in the hanger for a free La5FN.

Don't know, just a thought...

-Soda

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on June 26, 2005, 02:15:16 AM

BTW N1K is a 1944er too ;)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Kev367th on June 26, 2005, 02:39:58 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
BTW N1K is a 1944er too ;)

Big difference -
It doesnt accelerate like a Ferrari off the deck.
Nowhere near as fast.

The problem isn't that it's good or great in 1 category, as has been pointed out is excels in all categories. A point proved by having an ENY value equal to a 262.

I'll never work out why HT perks or doesn't perk planes, looking at our current situation NOTHING makes sense.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Overlag on June 26, 2005, 05:23:00 AM

the perk system is a good idea, IF they used it

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 27, 2005, 09:03:29 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Soda
A crazy idea, maybe not for the MA but it would be interesting to see it in action:

Why not just have a free-market-economy based on % of sorties. Set a target use % and everytime someone presses FLY they effectively vote on whether the aircraft is worth the cost. . . . .. .

So, you want to see the Spitfires gone also? :lol

Sounds like a good idea though. Beter than perking planes based on who is crying.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SirLoin on June 27, 2005, 01:02:41 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
Somebody asked the real newbie
question ever "What plane do i use
first in this game ?"

Many tell Spit V or IX. Why ? Nobody
says La7. I wonder about. it ist fast, has the
gameruler 20mm and maneuver
fantastic. La7 is the newbie plane of the game.

:rolleyes:

Yeah but the cannons are hard to hit with..could put off newbies..Spit's Hispanos a newbies best friend.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on June 27, 2005, 03:16:51 PM

Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
So, you want to see the Spitfires gone also? :lol

Sounds like a good idea though. Beter than perking planes based on who is crying.

Exactly. Don't make HTC set the number, let the number set itself. If people think it's worth the cost they will pay it, if not they won't. Make it cheap, just enough to influence long-term decisions but not enough to make people worry about losing points and getting placed in something "inferior". Inferior right now is NOT-IN-A La7/P-51D/190D9/Typhoon/SpitV. Inferior in a stepped model might be the difference between a 109F4, G2, G6 and G10..each a smaller step.

This way I think the MA would be a less dangerous place for new players and likely lead to more knife-fights. Less firepower, less speed, less energy potential, less ordnance, an aircraft that displayed one or two of these abilities might be considered decent vs. now where if you don't basically have them all then you are in an inferior ride. It would certainly slow the AH arms-race we have now. As it stands if HTC doesn't add uber-aircraft then they typically become hanger-queens. Even if they add something "Better" doesn't it just attract all the attention and push everything else down a bit, not actually spread anything out that much.

As for the Spitfires, well, I'm sure the Spit 1 would remain free :) Otherwise, we have 3 Spits in the top 10 aircraft right now, technically they are higher-total than the La7 in total sorties. To complicate it, we have essentially 3 similar performing Spitfires with the Spit V at +16lbs. That's still a lot of sorties to generate though before they got costly in my concept as each would have to hit the threshold % individually. Given the addition of the Spit XIV as an La7 class perk and you'd have 4 models. If the Spit V was lowered back to +12lbs you'd probably see use drop off there and it would become free, or essentially free (1-2 points).

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: ALF on June 27, 2005, 03:47:36 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
Somebody asked the real newbie
question ever "What plane do i use
first in this game ?"

Many tell Spit V or IX. Why ? Nobody
says La7. I wonder about. it ist fast, has the
gameruler 20mm and maneuver
fantastic. La7 is the newbie plane of the game.

:rolleyes:

Just when did the La7 become manueverable? Its 'OK' but its not a big T&B plane. heck the p51 eats its lunch. The thing you have to remember about the La7 is to start manuevering before its within 500 yards, many people get killed by a high aspect snapshot doing silly flat turns.

Besides, its been said a bizillion times before(that a lot), if you perk the LA7, within a month "PERK THE XXXXX" threads will apear as the Spit or Niki become more popular.......anyone remember the perk the Niki threads.....notice how they went away, and everyone learned how to beat the Niki......the UFO that it is:lol

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 27, 2005, 03:49:49 PM

Soda, you got my vote :aok

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on June 27, 2005, 03:51:13 PM

Quote
Originally posted by ALF
Just when did the La7 become manueverable?

:lol :rofl I guess anything that can outturn brick is considered manuverable now days

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: gnubee on June 27, 2005, 10:18:07 PM

Compared to the flight model in Warbirds 2.77 real-mode most of these birds feel manuverable...but that's just if you ask me. :aok

I agree with the people that say if the La-7 gets "over-perked" the balance of power will shift and we will start seeing "Perk the XXXX" threads too. But I'll also say that the lala is modeled to be quite the machine in this game... I won't go so far as to say it's UBER, but it's pretty wicked. So a reasonable perk cost seems like a smart way to at least stem its usage.

I think part of the reason the Lala hasn't been perked yet is the limited choice we have in flying VVS fighters. Last I checked, we have 2 La's, and 2 Yaks. My guess is that if we get 1 or 2 other VVS Fighter options made avaliable to us the LaLa would quickly be perked.

So the real question here is, why don't we have the Mig-3 yet? :rofl

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Big G on July 05, 2005, 11:25:18 AM

I think the spit 14 should be unperked asap, guys like lynx, darkish, sundownr, kev367th, pellick etc would eat the la's alive in this plane, then the guys who know enough to be dangerous (like me, although I avoid the La 7 as it doesn't teach you anything except how to get out of dodge) would have to learn, would have to think about what they are flying and how best to survive etc, thus making them better pilots.

DEATH TO ALL LA 7's !!

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: AmRaaM on July 05, 2005, 08:00:50 PM

when will the perking end? perk one plane to limit it the the next fastest plane will be the new free "lala" ect....

only way to correct this would be to use a rolling planeset.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Urchin on July 05, 2005, 10:10:10 PM

Well, it depends. There will always be a next "best" plane, and there will always be a next "fastest" plane, but the two don't have to be the same. With the La-7 unperked, they are.

As far as the P-51 mauling the La-7 in a "turn-fight" (which I'll assume is any fight other than straight bore N zoom)... it depends. The La-7 has the acceleration to go vertical after taking the fight slow enough that the P-51 has to drop flaps to be as manueverable as the La-7... and when the La-7 does that the P-51 is toast.

If you take two pilots that are both skilled, the La-7 should win about 75% of them. If the P-51 pilot is better, he will probably find a way to kill an agressive but unskilled opponent. The La-7 can always leave though, the same can't be said of the P-51.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: AmRaaM on July 06, 2005, 10:17:05 PM

la7 has 2 outstanding characteristics, speed and climb at lower alt coupled with descent turning during both.
For a newb its definitely the bird of choice.

Next plane to be perked if la7 is will probably be the 51 or 190

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: 1K3 on July 06, 2005, 10:26:44 PM

another rehash...

Next on the guillotine after La-7...

motive, to move the time frame back to late-43 early-44 gamepley.

P-51D
Fw-190D
Bf-109G-10
1944 Typhoon
P-47D-40
P-38L
Ki-84
N1K2-J (assuming it is remodeled with automatic extending flaps)
F4U-1D
Yak-9U

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on July 09, 2005, 11:43:10 AM

HT should give us more LA variants
like the
LaGG 3
La 5
La 5F

We have the La5FN wich differs little
from the La7 in speed, then perk La7 !

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Magoo on July 11, 2005, 01:55:39 PM

Quote
Perking the entire late war fighters section at low, manageable prices of (3~4 points), is what is needed.

Kweesa, is the P51D considered a late war ride? If so, it ain't gonna happen. But I like the idea none the less. HT on the other hand is trying to run a business and can't perk the plane that brings in the guys who watch the commercial on the history channel that was running right smack in the middle of a documentary on the P51D (arguably the most recognizable and popular plane in the world).

Maybe, and I said maybe, the noobs could get a perk allowance. But we don't know what other problems might arise. As HT pointed out, we can't have the MA changed willy-nilly because very often fixing one problem causes another. Very often the new problem was not predicted...kind of a chaos theory thing:D

Solutions:

Get in an La7 and run the bastards down.

La7s have short flight times. Find a fight that requires them to burn most of their precious gas to get there. If you think about it, base defense, low alt fights, and short hops is what the La7 was designed for...

Whenever you enter a fight purposely pick on the La7s, gang them if you have to. FLy the D9s and Typhoons as necessary. Make choosing an La7 a painful choice.

Bribe HT to install airplane factories, specifically including an La7 factory, and bomb the bejeezuz out of it (for my part this is the one thing that would get me into a bomber)

Bribe everyone you know to fly an La7 to hit the magic C-hog trigger point and force a perk penalty.

Start a nasty rumor that the only squad that flew them on the eastern front was comprised entirely of Homosexuals that wet their pants at the first sign of a Hun, turned tail and ran back to base for a group hug.

Quit...if HT loses enough business over this he'll remove the plane entirely! On the other hand you are probably addicted as I am and would just take up something infinitely more expensive - like golf.

Startup a copycat operation to compete with AcesHigh, but don't include the La7 in the plane set.

Hack the AH servers and make all La7 skins bright pink. On all the runways spray paint "La7s are GAY and only a skilless, faceshooting weiner would fly one" in big bold letters that can be read from 30K.

Did I forget anything?

Magoo

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Magoo on July 11, 2005, 02:09:36 PM

Soda, that idea has merit but what of the code to implement it? especially if it doesn't quite work out (see my comment on chaos theory)

Your comment on the MA arms race is right on!

Quote
It would certainly slow the AH arms-race we have now. As it stands if HTC doesn't add uber-aircraft then they typically become hanger-queens. Even if they add something "Better" doesn't it just attract all the attention and push everything else down a bit, not actually spread anything out that much.

Magoo

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Urchin on July 11, 2005, 11:39:34 PM

Well, the other thing that HT has to look at is his bottom line. Generally, people don't play these games for a long time. Most people (so I've heard) put in a year and a half, maybe two years tops before they burn out and move on. I went about double that, but I suffered several pretty bad cases of burnout that got worse (and closer together) as time went on.

There is a very vocal minority that would like to see the MA become less of a '45 arena. It is also a very small minority. The vast majority of people are happy with the MA the way it is. Remember, HTs goal isn't to keep people here for eternity, it is to bring in more new people faster than the old people quit (or at least as fast anyway).

Would "newbies" be satisfied with a '43ish arena with the '44-'45 rides perked? Probably, unless they just had to have the P-51D. You really can't throw out the argument that "OMG, I love the LA-7 / Niki SOOOOO much that I found this game and just had to play it because of it" because if you are honest... nobody ever heard of those planes anyway, until they started playing this game and asked what the "best" planes were. It does work for the 109/190, P-51 (and the other P-XX's for those with a little more knowledge), A6M, and the Spitfire, and thats just about it.

But the question that you have to ask is... are newbies happy enough with the setup now that they'll give HTC money for 1.5-2 years? And the answer is yes. So if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on July 12, 2005, 01:25:47 PM

Magoo,
There would be nothing to it, HT has already shown all the pieces in one form or another. You use a 30 day rolling window to level of spikes in use. Then you add a 30 second delay to a sortie being counter to stop vulch deaths from being a penalty and to stop people from trying to monkey with the sortie rates to over-price something. You then just set a target use percentage and let the community dictate what actual use is. Set it slightly under what you think you want, I'd say in the 3% type range, so that the current top 10 would still all be over that but on typically not too far over lest their prices be driven up quickly.

The real thing is, does HTC even think there is a problem and or feel any change would better their business? I doubt it, it's mostly old-hands bringing up these topics from time to time. I disagree though. I think it might hold some of their longer term customers. I also think it would make it easier for newer players who struggle with the lethality of the current "average" aircraft. Things simply happen too quickly with too much speed, firepower, etc for new players. Controlling the high end aircraft slows things down a bit and makes it less lethal. It also probably saves them 100 threads a month talking about "perk X ride because it's too good".

It might be something to try at some point though. I remember the early CT days, hblair set up a perk ladder setup that I remember a lot of good comments about.

-Soda

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Hoarach on July 12, 2005, 07:14:21 PM

The la7 needs to be perked. It can outrun most unperked aircraft let alone some perked aircraft. It can turn with many planes especially in the hands of a veteran pilot and has the guns that can rip planes apart. However I do not fear la7s because they can be outturned by my 38 however when there are at least 2 la7s I begin to worry because it takes more to be able to kill them and with their speed it is near impossible to get away.

I would be more afriad though of the la5 because it has relatively good speed but it turns much better than the la7.

If the la7 gets perked, I can guarantee pilots will complain on the boards how they cant fly any other planes and will complain to get the only plane they can fly to be unperked.

When seeing d9s, 51Ds, and other fast planes. I have seen those planes actually willing to fight and once they make a turn on me they are pretty much dead when it comes to my 38 unless they are in a plane that moves fairly well like the G2. But when I encounter la7s all they end up doing is running like hell after I get on their 6 and dont even bother to fight until I end up fighting someone else and cherry picking me. With its turning capability the la7 should be able to be a good match for turning planes suchas the spit 9 or someone who knows how to turn well in other planes such as me in my 38. However I find very few la7 pilots that are willing to fight in the turn rather than just run like hell. One pilot that I do respect the most in the la7 is Sundownr because he doesnt run like hell when its 1v1 and is willing to fight in the turn.

What Kweassa said above about seeing less 38Ls flying and more 38Js and Gs. There are already more Js flying than any other 38. G is flown the least becuase I think most just hate that armour glass and say how they cant see out of it. Most feel that the J out performs the other 38s but I believe wrong because the G can outturn the other 38s and the L and J are comparative except at high speeds.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: killnu on July 12, 2005, 07:22:23 PM

Canaris, most fly J or L because they need the crutch of wep :)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Spongebob on July 12, 2005, 08:21:21 PM

Soda, I get the impression you had this idea in mind and working the kinks out well before this thread started. I have to agree with your free market solution (that's just beautiful...the American way)and of course highlight the following:

Quote
The real thing is, does HTC even think there is a problem and or feel any change would better their business?

This of course being a free market solution in itself.

FOR DISCUSSIONS SAKE, let me throw something else out that's somewhat related - Would the game attract more players if it had more of a typical WWII flavor regarding the models of planes that are flown. We have an N1K2-J, for example, that absolutely should be modelled IMHO yet in our world it is one of the dominant planes numbers wise. In the war that produced this great plane it was only available late in the war and in *limited numbers (relatively speaking). specifically 428 units. Note that the N1K1-J totalled 1007 examples earlier in the war but that model was arguably a lesser plane (by a small margin) and certainly had more teething problems so to speak. The are plenty of late war beasts with similar stories and I believe the F4U1-C production was in the hundreds, of course that beast got the perk penalty and rightfully so. Don't get me wrong here, I understand that you can't just pick a day on the timeline of WWII and say that the types and percentage of models flown on that day is what is "right". It has been stated that we have a late war arena, but how late is late and is that time optimum for attracting the maximum player base? Conversely, you cant attempt to manipulate the numbers on production alone. The Pee-40 numbered in the tens of thousands and nobody wants to fly that "ballerina" a representative amount of time (well no sane person). Is it feasible to perk a plane for two reasons - dominance in the arena AND because it just didn't get produced in large quantities? (see the Ta152 possibly and the C-Hog on both accounts) How about if it was a really late war entry or saw little combat? I think SOME guys would pay the price, if it isn't prohibitive, and not ***** too much because they understand the reasoning behind it.

But hey in the real deal Spits didn't fight Mustangs either...

Magoo

B]*60 before 1944 from the Naruo plant and only 294 subsequently (from that plant).

44 from the Hieji plant beginning March, 1945.

Actual production by all manufacturers up to the end of the war totalled only 428 machines.[/B]

My source on this info is from a marvelous little handbook titled - War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Three, by William Green (1961)

I looked at the price tag on the inside cover from when I purchased it as a young lad (navy brat and a fixture at the base model shop in New London) - NAVY EXCHANGE N. S. B./ N. L. $2.50 (wow, if only I could find volumes 1-4 at those prices today!)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on July 13, 2005, 12:24:29 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Spongebob
FOR DISCUSSIONS SAKE, let me throw something else out that's somewhat related - Would the game attract more players ...

Sponge, people have discussed ways to "limit" use of a plane but I don't think there is a system that would suit the MA. I think the ToD will probably appeal to that crowd much more as I think it'll incorporate a lot of those desires (based on what I've heard about it). So many tough questions to answer otherwise like who decides who gets to fly what and how to you control when the get to use it? No answer for that. People have talked sortie limiters, rolling-planesets, etc... I don't think HT likes any of them (they all tend to have weaknesses).

HT just wants lots of people flying because that maximizes peoples enjoyment. More aircraft in the air = more targets, so anything that limits that while people wait in line to take up X ride is pointless. Also, if there were a limit then they'd be less likely to commit it to a real fight and potentially lose it (and thus probably wait to take another). Not good.

My idea will probably die with this thread but it's pretty simple. It doesn't favor a high/low hour player, nor any country, etc. It has to help diversity a bit as it's based on use percentage UNLESS people save up all their perks for only 1 specific aircraft. Also allows much better potential for introduction of aircraft not near the top end that may be used if they are reasonably competitive. It does probably impact a lot of the player-base though, all the popular rides are going to end up perks and some of the second tier rides will pick up popularity and also end up in the same situation (albiet less costly). Most of those top rides are there because they are best suited to the game, not by service date, etc, but that said it'll mean a lot of people will be searching for a "new" ride because their primary one is now not free all the time.

-Soda

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Magoo on July 13, 2005, 01:10:03 PM

Thanks for the comments Soda.

Quote
Also, if there were a limit then they'd be less likely to commit it to a real fight and potentially lose it (and thus probably wait to take another). Not good.

Of course that is what happens currently with the perk rides, but if that's a bad thing then why even add perk planes to the game?

Let's run with your ideas "for the sake of conversation" and offer a solution for this particular problem - If you earn the right to fly a plane then you must also earn the right to KEEP the plane. Use it or lose it. Put a cap on perks so you can't pile them up forever. If you don't use them after being logged on for X amount of time they start decrimenting. But to the point, I can't think of a way to accurately determine if a guy is truly commiting to battle, otherwise I'd subtract points for not doing so.

Quote
So many tough questions to answer otherwise like who decides who gets to fly what and how to you control when the get to use it? No answer for that. People have talked sortie limiters, rolling-planesets, etc... I don't think HT likes any of them (they all tend to have weaknesses).

The very fact that the average player (in the MA) can't survive in anything but a late war monster is in itself limiting your choices and deciding who flys what.
How about just giving everyone 2 free sorties in all the perk planes each camp (in your system I mean)?

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I think that several of the ideas offered in these boards could be just as good at attracting the maximum amount of customers. You simply go with an idea and commit to tweaking it and make it work. Of course that IS what HT is doing with the current setup. Certainly from HT's perspective there is a great amount of risk in reconfiguring the way the MA is ran, no matter how fond you are of an idea.

Magoo

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Shane on July 13, 2005, 01:17:38 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Magoo
Make choosing an La7 a painful choice.
Magoo

choosing *my* la7 is usually a painful choice.

:p

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Magoo on July 13, 2005, 01:25:44 PM

Not lately Shane. You must actually be in the arena to dole out the pain...

I haven't seen you in game in quite some time. Sounds more like empty threats to me ;)

Magoo

Title: Help stop 'noob discrimmination.....
Post by: REP0MAN on July 13, 2005, 02:46:45 PM

As somewhat of a noob I wanted to chime in.

I am three weeks out of free trial. The reason I came is because I love WWII stuff. Planes mostly as I myself fly. I also love manning 5mm CV guns and Panzers.

I like the La7 and the La5 for all the reasons you guys hate it. But I usually get my *** handed to me because I am not that good. Sure, I may turn and run if I get damaged or pilot wound but I do love to stay and fight. I will agree that others HO and run. I get it all the time. Its part of the game. I also get HO and run by alot of other planes. I think last night the majority of fighters I saw were 190, 109 and spit. But I dont care. If I win, yay. If I die, dang. Its a game. Its fun.

My point being, as a two week'er, I would not have had any fun nor luck gaining kills or being much in the fight with all early war aircraft or 'left-over free planes'. I came for the P-51D, P-38L and the Spit because of my interests in the history. But what I found when I got here is the f-4's, N1K's, BF-110's, 109's, tiffys and yes, the La's. It got me back in the history books looking at the other varieties that WWII had to offer. I even have a thing for flying mossies as a fighter. (Thanks Tex)

Reiterating what has been said a thousand times here, if you perk one, the next best will get overused and the same thread will appear on that plane. Sure, it's a crutch. But what will eventually end up happening while you take crutches away? You limit what newbies fly and HTC limits it's ability to attract new customers. Once membership goes down, membership prices go up. Supply and demand. If I couldn't have flown the three planes mentioned above that I came to fly, I most likely wouldnt have paid the 15$ to see if I could get the perks to afford 'em.

I think it's safe to say that if everyone got their way, nobody would be happy and HTC would be very busy with updates.....

:)

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Shane on July 13, 2005, 03:12:32 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Magoo
Not lately Shane. You must actually be in the arena to dole out the pain...

I haven't seen you in game in quite some time. Sounds more like empty threats to me ;)

Magoo

hah!

Tour 66

Model type La-7
Kills In 21

Title: Re: Help stop 'noob discrimmination.....
Post by: Soda on July 13, 2005, 03:30:42 PM

Quote
Originally posted by REP0MAN
As somewhat of a noob I wanted to chime in....
:)

REPO, you are absolutely correct, and it doesn't just impact new players, it is felt every time a new aircraft is introduced. Vetern guys can win through technique with a less powerful ride but even most of them fly a top 10 aircraft because "the jones have one". Why fly anything else other than if you have a personal attachment (you admit you ended up in an La7 but that wasn't your initial interest). Thing is, if you lowered the bar for everyone you'd probably not notice. You'd see some high-end stuff around but the average would still be at your level. The perk costs to upgrade right now are so extreme that you probably couldn't afford one in your 3 weeks of play, or maybe a sortie or two max, so why risk them. If the perks were 1-8 points you could probably have tried out a bunch of slightly upgraded rides and maybe had a bit of advantage in aircraft performance in a couple of fights to see exactly how big a thing it can be.

People would complain in giving up any of the top 10 rides because they think they'd be at a distadvantage because everyone else would still have one, not true. Everyone would have given them up so the relative aircraft level would be the same. Just would be more options to take tiny steps up for low perk costs and not have any anxiety about risking them.

-Soda

Title: Re: Help stop 'noob discrimmination.....
Post by: Hoarach on July 13, 2005, 03:32:42 PM

Quote
Originally posted by REP0MAN
As somewhat of a noob I wanted to chime in.

I am three weeks out of free trial. The reason I came is because I love WWII stuff. Planes mostly as I myself fly. I also love manning 5mm CV guns and Panzers.

I like the La7 and the La5 for all the reasons you guys hate it. But I usually get my *** handed to me because I am not that good. Sure, I may turn and run if I get damaged or pilot wound but I do love to stay and fight. I will agree that others HO and run. I get it all the time. Its part of the game. I also get HO and run by alot of other planes. I think last night the majority of fighters I saw were 190, 109 and spit. But I dont care. If I win, yay. If I die, dang. Its a game. Its fun.

My point being, as a two week'er, I would not have had any fun nor luck gaining kills or being much in the fight with all early war aircraft or 'left-over free planes'. I came for the P-51D, P-38L and the Spit because of my interests in the history. But what I found when I got here is the f-4's, N1K's, BF-110's, 109's, tiffys and yes, the La's. It got me back in the history books looking at the other varieties that WWII had to offer. I even have a thing for flying mossies as a fighter. (Thanks Tex)

Reiterating what has been said a thousand times here, if you perk one, the next best will get overused and the same thread will appear on that plane. Sure, it's a crutch. But what will eventually end up happening while you take crutches away? You limit what newbies fly and HTC limits it's ability to attract new customers. Once membership goes down, membership prices go up. Supply and demand. If I couldn't have flown the three planes mentioned above that I came to fly, I most likely wouldnt have paid the 15$ to see if I could get the perks to afford 'em.

I think it's safe to say that if everyone got their way, nobody would be happy and HTC would be very busy with updates.....

:)

However when you face 51s, 190s, and 109s, they burn E much quicker especially you dont really see that many turn back to fight but would rather go up and over. For me in my 38 I just follow them until they go up and just go up after them because the 38 is a great stall fighter and will usually win unless the 51s, 190s, and 109s are going at least 400 because the 38 also has great acceleration.

When it comes to the la7 though they usually dont turn back and dont burn E as quickly and will usually get away. You can perk the la7 and the noobs will still have the la5 which I myself feel, dont know how other feel, is a much better plane because it turns better than the la7. Noobs also have the spits which are excellent planes especially the 9 which has somewhat good speed, good turning abilities, and has good guns. Your not really limiting what noobs will be able to fly just getting rid of a plane that is pretty much the best overall aircraft that can pretty much do what other planes can do with speed, turning, and acceleration. At least the other aircraft arent all good in those areas such as the 51 which has speed but not really being able to turn with many other planes very long, same with the 190. Ive seen 109s being able to turn halfway decent depending which 109 your up against but not all have great speeds. The 38, if well flown has the ability to turn with most aircraft and has halfway decent speed.

Its just that why should noobs be able to fly the best plane that HT has to offer and being able to outrun, outturn, or etc the veterans. It has speed comparable to perk aircraft and can turn better than most perk aircraft. So why shouldnt it be perked?

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on July 13, 2005, 03:33:30 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Magoo
Thanks for the comments Soda.

Of course that is what happens currently with the perk rides, but if that's a bad thing then why even add perk planes to the game?

Let's run with your ideas "for the sake of conversation" ...

Ok Magoo, now you make me bring up Part 2 of this idea (though I hadn't discussed it before but here goes). The issue is, we have a "landing-refund" perk system right now. If you land you get your points back. It's obvious why people are shy when they know they need to land. What about a "kill-refund" system, you get points back each time you make a kill, landing them means nothing.

So, here goes, you base the refund on a number of kills you deem "aggressive enough", say 3. Thus if you land with 3 kills, or die with 3 kills, you get your refund. Landing with 10 kills earns you no bonus. So, for each kill you get 1/3 of your points back, dying with 2 kills you'd still get a 2/3rds refund, etc. That simple, if you launch and land with 0 kills, you get no refund.

This attempts to balance aggressiveness with some reward. Once you hit the 3 kill mark (or equivalent, see later) you are home-free and can put caution to the wind. If you fly around looking to cherry-pick and don't get anything you'd be losing your perks by simply landing. You can use the re-arm/re-load pads to extend a sortie to try and pick up your 3 kills but in doing so you are still a target for someone to bounce while on the pad or taxiing. No "bail on the runway" the second someone makes a vulch pass on you, you'd lose your perks, you may as well hope they auger to give you 1/3 of your points back for free. Same for damaged aircraft, that P-51D (assuming it's perked) with a rad hit is going to be in the ultra-aggressive category if he doesn't have his 3 kills. No running for home, better to stay and try to pick up some quick kills before the engine seizes. The "equivalent" thing comes from assists, which right now are essentially worthless, but could in this model be considered half-kills. They'd refund 1/6th as a result such that 6 assists would give you the full refund just like 3 kills would.

Just thoughts... disco's/ALT-F4's wouldn't get any partial refund, just hope you disco after you picked up some kills as the refund would happen at the point you got the kill. If you disco'd with 3 kills then it doesn't matter anyway. Heck, you could HO everything, die, but as long as you took the other guy with you you'd get 1/3 of your investment back.

-Soda

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Spongebob on July 13, 2005, 09:18:43 PM

Quote
The issue is, we have a "landing-refund" perk system right now. If you land you get your points back. It's obvious why people are shy when they know they need to land. What about a "kill-refund" system, you get points back each time you make a kill, landing them means nothing.

Brilliant! (said with an English accent)

Heck, even a rental system where you burn X amount of perks for a perk ride no matter what would work. Just don't make the rental price so steep.

OK Soda, within that system, let me throw this out for a solution. What about when a player wants to use the perk plane in attack mode? The F4U1-C is an excellent attack plane for example. Yes you get kills in attack mode too but your gonna take some lumps from the AA and end up low after a bombing run which may limit your opportunities. Maybe a straight rental price in attack mode? Of course you could check the attack box but fly as a fighter but I don't know what that gains you with a rental fee.

Quote
I think it's safe to say that if everyone got their way, nobody would be happy and HTC would be very busy with updates.....

How does the saying go "if you try to please everyone, nobody will be happy".

REPOMAN, thanks for the input. Soda and I are old timers in AH so a noob-view is absolutely pertinent.

Quote
I came for the P-51D, P-38L and the Spit because of my interests in the history.

I think the P51D is a special case as REPO pointed out. It's what attracts people to the game. With that in mind maybe it just needs an exemption from any proposed perks. Certainly early on in a new guys learning curve.

REPO, when you first came to AH, would you have been upset if some of those late war monsters were mildly perked? or would you have understood that dominance has its price? or as I pointed out with the N1K2, a small production run might be justifiably simulated in game? (Objection! Counsel is leading the witness! )

BTW, have you tried the P51B? It is a much better knife fighter than the D model, with snappier handling. In my opinion the maneuvering flaps also seem to have a better effect in the B model. Having said that, the 4 50s may not suit you. I'd mention the poor rearward view but the Malcolm hood for the B is soon to arrive and may alleviate that.

You know, I just had a thought (nobody panic!). Looking at perks in reverse, what if you got perk points just for flying soties in some of those early war dogs, kills be damned? The P40B for example. You pay to fly the dominators and get paid to fly the duds. I guess depending on how you arrange it, it's six of one and half dozen of the other.

Magoo

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Soda on July 13, 2005, 10:31:55 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Spongebob
Brilliant! (said with an English accent)

...OK Soda, within that system, let me throw this out for a solution. What about when a player wants to use the perk plane in attack mode? The F4U1-C is an excellent attack plane for example....

There can't be any exemptions. If you want historical the ToD is more likely to be the place you want to do anyway. The P-51D is honestly more powerful overall than the La7, just the La7 is maybe a better fighter at low altitiudes in "Average" hands. No exemption. As for attackers, well, if you want the big firepower/ordnance of something like the C-Hog or P47D40, be prepared to pay the cost. Lots of free aircraft will be able to carry ordnance though maybe not quite as much or be quite as capable in the swing-role. Maybe if you select "Attack" though your "kill-refund" can be based on damage done and not on fighter kills.

Bombers and GV's should get the same system though. It would make the diversity of GV's spread out a lot, the Panzer would be a perk certainly with the Tiger more, the T-34 would probably be the entry-level free GV.

One thing I would exempt would be C47's, LVT and M3's with troops. No need to limit those, they are simply targets anyway.

-Soda

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: REP0MAN on July 14, 2005, 12:07:25 PM

Quote
REPO, when you first came to AH, would you have been upset if some of those late war monsters were mildly perked? or would you have understood that dominance has its price? or as I pointed out with the N1K2, a small production run might be justifiably simulated in game? (Objection! Counsel is leading the witness!

Probably. I mean if I got up in something that was inferior to a perked plane that people who already had years of time killing are dominating the skys, I most likely would have got my free two weeks of killing then went back to the offline IL2 or the older Euopean Airwar. I could also go back to the medal of honor series and just be a drunk goon. But I most likely would not have stayed here to pay to get shot down all night.

Right now I get killed alot, mostly by trees and earth. But I have the advantage to up in a p-51d or even b (which your absolutely right about) a p-38, a spit, a bf 110g and even an La7/5 and actually go out looking to piss off a vet and try to kill him in his late war monster. I actually stand a chance with a like or similarly agile aircraft. I may loose, which I do alot, but at least it was not the inferior planes fault. I would most likely pass on engaging aircraft until I found one that would be worth trying if we went to perking all the "good" planes.

Quote
, just the La7 is maybe a better fighter at low altitiudes in "Average" hands.

Soda has hit it on the head here. People fly the La's and the P-51s because they are agile and it puts them at an immediate "i have a chance" state with the veterans. Now that I have gotten better I try to fly other varieties of planes. Last night was in a tiffie all night and landed tons of kills. I loved the plane except for the small amout of cannon rounds they give you. I made it my mission to put it against the La. When the La stuck around, I did well. So I will fly the Tiffie for a while. Of course when the squad flys together we fly what the boss wants to us to fly. But thats another ball of wax.

Thanks Magoo and Soda for allowing noobs like me to add opinion and not discounting it to dweebery.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SuperDud on July 14, 2005, 01:25:07 PM

Don't perk it, I need to be able to get kills!

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: dedalos on July 14, 2005, 01:36:47 PM

Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
Don't perk it, I need to be able to get kills!

Supa confused the LA7 thread with the 5" gun thread again. :rolleyes:

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: SuperDud on July 14, 2005, 02:04:01 PM

Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Supa confused the LA7 thread with the 5" gun thread again. :rolleyes:

Ooooops, Ded is correct. Sorry for the mix up.

PS: I dare you to HO my 5" gun!!!

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Loddar on July 22, 2005, 08:33:49 AM

This is not exatly an answer to the thread
here, but my question is, why the La7
have an ENY of 5.0 and is not perked,
when all other with such an high ENY
rating ARE perked in the game ?

And the next question is, will the P47N
be perked in the future. I think it is a
very good candidate for perkplane !

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Skydancer on July 22, 2005, 09:26:15 AM

Maybe instead of perks (other than for Jets, any chance of a Meteor by the way!) HT should use rolling planesets. That way would get used too and some realistc(ish) match ups would occur. Could be fun. Might need some early war allied buffs for that though.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Clifra Jones on July 22, 2005, 10:53:50 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Loddar
This is not exatly an answer to the thread
here, but my question is, why the La7
have an ENY of 5.0 and is not perked,
when all other with such an high ENY
rating ARE perked in the game ?

And the next question is, will the P47N
be perked in the future. I think it is a
very good candidate for perkplane !

Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
Maybe instead of perks (other than for Jets, any chance of a Meteor by the way!) HT should use rolling planesets. That way would get used too and some realistc(ish) match ups would occur. Could be fun. Might need some early war allied buffs for that though.

WILL IT NEVER END!:rolleyes:

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: 1K3 on July 22, 2005, 09:22:52 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
Maybe instead of perks (other than for Jets, any chance of a Meteor by the way!) HT should use rolling planesets. That way would get used too and some realistc(ish) match ups would occur. Could be fun. Might need some early war allied buffs for that though.

If rolling planeset is implemented, expect 70% profit loss and player base for HTC.

PS Alot of WB players moved to AH after WB went "rolling" with the planeset.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Skydancer on July 26, 2005, 02:33:03 AM

Didn't AW have rolling planesets? At least in the AVA arena.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Lye-El on July 26, 2005, 04:04:46 PM

Quote
Originally posted by REP0MAN
Probably. I mean if I got up in something that was inferior to a perked plane that people who already had years of time killing are dominating the skys,/B]

That seems to be the point of a lot of the perk the LA7 arguments. I want to fly my P38 or what ever but the LA gives me a hard time and if that guy (noob) wasn't in the LA7 I could kill him and run up my stats /points.

If my aircraft can't kill or catch my enemys aircraft I want it gone!

As far as perks I don't get many. My best fighter kills are three and I didn't get to land any of them.

And no, I don't fly the LA7 that much. Usually it's the Spit V which you can't follow a helicopter P-38 in. Which is, of course, and advantage they like.

So it seems to me it's a Perk the LA7 so we can club the baby seals thing. The vets have the advantage of skill, the only advantage the unskilled have is perhaps their choice of plane which the skilled have the choice of flying. The skilled also can take a perk bird that the unskilled don't have access to. The few times I took a perk bird I just lost it for no gain.

Title: Enough Is Enough
Post by: Karash on July 26, 2005, 05:10:43 PM

We could have different arenas with historically accurate planesets. I dont know how often they would be visited...but they would be there.

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