Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on December 04, 2001, 09:57:00 AM
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Whelp.. the extremists have made their play... and Israel is replying. Both the US and Israel have pointed their fingers at Arafat.
Looks like a lose/lose deal for Palestine.
Can we afford to have the 'Palestinian State' situation set back 20 years?
Clearly, Arafat must deliver the Hamas leaders to Israel or be exiled or assasinated himself. To do so may result in a complete loss of credibility and authority with his own people.. he may be killed by his own palestinian extremists if he's seen as bowing to the demands of Israel.
Damn.. this is getting very ugly, and I can only assume that very soon, the Palestinian Authority will be destroyed and the advances toward statehood for the Palestinians will become a sad memory...
Looks like a third party is needed in the region to salvage what little is left of the peace process.. somebody other than the US or Israel to 'take custody' of the Hammas extrimist leaders that Arafat has arrested.. or peace in the Middle East will be impossible.
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Looks like a third party is needed in the region to salvage what little is left of the peace process.. somebody other than the US or Israel to 'take custody' of the Hammas extrimist leaders that Arafat has arrested.. or peace in the Middle East will be impossible.
whoever they stuck in there would only be able to control one side of the conflict, the Israeli's. THe Palestine nutto's with tnt crammed up their arse would still continue to blow up innocents while running to Allah and their allotted 72 virgins.
Nope, time for them and anyone who sides with their murderous ways to go.
Just wonder how big a load Arafat dropped in his pants when the 3 missiles landed 20 yards outside his door..his best play would be to throw his hands up and move to the states before he's six feet under from one side or the other.
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Unfortunately, I don't think Arafat has much in the way of actual power anymore.
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Truck (bus?) loads of people will die and maybe few people in A300/737/747/A380 and buildings they hit too.
We have already seen where this leads. Funniest thing is it looks like people doesn't learn :D
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
Unfortunately, I don't think Arafat has much in the way of actual power anymore.
He has as much power as The Queen does in UK.
Come to think of it, Arafat IS a queen too! ;)
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I find it chilling that, according to Chris Matthews of "Hardball", poll after poll shows that 75% or more of regular Palestinians are in favor of suicide bombings of innocent Israeli people to retaliate or achieve political goals.
I'm begining to wonder if it makes any difference WHO is leading the Palestinians...
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Originally posted by Gunthr:
I find it chilling that, according to Chris Matthews of "Hardball", poll after poll shows that 75% or more of regular Palestinians are in favor of suicide bombings of innocent Israeli people to retaliate or achieve political goals.
I'm begining to wonder if it makes any difference WHO is leading the Palestinians...
Gunther,
I don't think ANYONE is leading the palistinians. That may be a key part of the problem.
Until the atmosphere of hatred cools there ain't gonna be any respite from this tragedy.
Killing for the sake of God is like screwing for the sake of virginity. If God wants you dead, how long do you think you'll live anyhow??????
(http://www.13thtas.com/mav13sig.jpg)
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I for one am having a very tough time finding any compassion for palestine. The memory of them dancing in the strees on 9-11 is still etched in my memory. Short of building a 2 mile high 2,000 ft thick titanium wall to seperate them I don't know how we or they are going to stop this. We've had "peacekeepers" there before and it didn't work. Are we ready to lose another 200 marines over there?
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not much to say in defense of the palestinians really. i cant even defend that move. you its bad when i cant step to the plate for them. what a stupid move.
i mean in a moral, defensive sense, they are justified resisting israelis by whatever means necessary since they are an unwanted and brutal occupying force, i don't have a shred of sympathy for any of those israelis at all, but if the palestinians want a state they should've been cool!
wtf does distancing the u.s. accomplish? what kind of victory could possibly be gained?? yeah "li'li'li'li' die for allah!!" - yeh thats great guy.... and now you really will die for allah and put your cause back 20 yrs...great move...nice shot...
...and getting a token state determined by jewish lobbyists in the u.s. is really the only way out of slavery for them - it isnt much, but its the best they can make out of this
- i mean they'll never get their rightful land back since we are obedient lil' doggies in israels pocket. they should take anything they can get in the interests of their people. atleast with their own land they could have some dignity instead of being shoved around by israeli bullies.
stupid, stupid, stupid....at this point i think the whole place should be razed to make way for disneyland middle-east and some vacation condos.
screw all of them, they bring down the overall mood of the world and i wouldnt miss any of them...let the nukes fly, they're gettin old anyway we need to use them on something...
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Originally posted by Staga:
Truck (bus?) loads of people will die and maybe few people in A300/737/747/A380 and buildings they hit too.
We have already seen where this leads. Funniest thing is it looks like people doesn't learn :D
I don't find any of it funny. What is your suggestion, we all move to finland and back & stand for nothing?
There are ppl who are not happy in this world unless they are hurting/killing others. They look for excuses to "justify" their warped arse causes....
gotta agree with mrfish, I'm sick and tired of the whole thing. It's like a sore that doesn't heal, a big scab on a 4 year old's knee that he keeps picking off no matter how many times his mother tells him not too...
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What really mucks this thing up is how the other Muslim countries rally around this issue, or manipulate it to their own ends.
Iraq for instance, recently warned that it would "swallow Israel whole" if the USA attacks Bagdad for it's terrorist activities. Iraq may very well possess dirty-type nuclear devices, too. Makes you wonder which way Iran, Syria, Yemen et al would flop
if USA attacks Iraq, and Iraq unloads on Israel.
Then you've got the Paki's and India with nukes, practically at war over Kashmir to make things really interesting...
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Eagler terrorists have already used busses (couple times per month, sometimes more), ships (Achille Lauro), metro-trains (Tokyo) and lots of aeroplanes to make their point and I'm sure we will see something new and original someday.
Keep supporting Israel and enjoy the ride :)
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: Staga ]
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Originally posted by Udie:
I for one am having a very tough time finding any compassion for palestine. The memory of them dancing in the strees on 9-11 is still etched in my memory. Short of building a 2 mile high 2,000 ft thick titanium wall to seperate them I don't know how we or they are going to stop this. We've had "peacekeepers" there before and it didn't work. Are we ready to lose another 200 marines over there?
The 200 marines were in Lebannon, not Palestine, also a dozen or so people celebrating 11-9-01 hardly constitutes a people, and
Peacekeepers do work in the areas they occupy like the Golan, and Sinai.
Isreal would never tolerate a proper UN peacekeeping force in the occupied territories because then they might not be able to roll in their tanks whenever they feel like it to evict some more palenstinian villages to make way for Isreali settlers.
Tronsky
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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I can't see a solution thats mutually palatable to any of the three sides... the arab world, the palestinians or the israeli's.
My suggestion... since the USA has the most to lose long term from instability there, it's time to take hard action. Lets take custody of the Palistinian Authoritys Hammas prisoners (arafat has arrested more than 100 since sunday) and try them by tribunal.
Next, we establish and control the borders ourselves between Palestine and Israel, we evict jewish settlers in violation of the camp david accords and explain to Israel that over border incursions by it's armed forces for ANY reason is not acceptable.
Then we take over the public education of the Palestinians, (hate schools) oversee their Police, eliminate Hammas and the other extrimist groups and try and keep the two sides from getting at each other for 20 years or so.
We'll lose troops, we'll be hated and reviled, but 11 million palestinians and 23 million jews might just live long enuff to see another generation live in peace there.
(flame suit on)
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Originally posted by Staga:
Keep supporting Israel and enjoy the ride :)
You do realize, of course, that after the actions of September 11th it is now impossible for America to cease supporting Israel. Regardless of the merits of pulling out of the Middle East, America and its allies cannot allow terrorists to believe that the murder of thousands of innocents influences policy to their liking. If anything, it's imperative to show that terrorist actions produce exactly the opposite reaction sought.
This is why terrorism is ultimately so freaking moronic. Does Hamas expect that Israel's reaction to bombing buses will be anything less than a massive retaliation? Did Bin Laden actually expect that ramming some jets into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon would actually cause America to withdraw from the Middle East in fear? If anything, these actions have unified resistence to the objectives of the terrorists. I was surprised by a poll I read in Business Week yesterday that showed that pre-September 11th support for President Bush among American liberals was around 25%... after September 11th, it's at 75%. In the span of several hours, terrorists managed to alienate about the only voices of support they may have enjoyed within the United States.
Extremism begets extremism.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Hang is having some good ideas IMHO; Build a 6 meter high concrete wall between Israel and Lebanon.
I wonder if blueprints of wall of Berlin are still somewhere there?
Next ask Mercedes-Chrysler to build a factory in Lebanon and I might be able to buy a Mercedes and Palestinians could have some work to do = No time to throw stones :)
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DMF/Todd/Leviathan what do you expect to see when Israel's tanks rolled to Lebanon?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:
This is why terrorism is ultimately so freaking moronic. Does Hamas expect that Israel's reaction to bombing buses will be anything less than a massive retaliation? Did Bin Laden actually expect that ramming some jets into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon would actually cause America to withdraw from the Middle East in fear?
so you must be disgusted that israel chose to rocket palestinians during the post sep 11th cease-fire too?
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Originally posted by Staga:
Hang is having some good ideas IMHO; Build a 6 meter high concrete wall between Israel and Lebanon.
I wonder if blueprints of wall of Berlin are still somewhere there?
Next ask Mercedes-Chrysler to build a factory in Lebanon and I might be able to buy a Mercedes and Palestinians could have some work to do = No time to throw stones :)
why in the heck do you think they (the terrorists) would want to hold a job? Why report to a factory when they'd get more enjoyment out of blowing it up, causing further death, destruction & misery which it is all they, the wacko terrorists are stiving for, the only thing that they seem to think gives their lousy lives purpose..
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I can't see a solution thats mutually palatable to any of the three sides... the arab world, the palestinians or the israeli's.
My suggestion... since the USA has the most to lose long term from instability there, it's time to take hard action. Lets take custody of the Palistinian Authoritys Hammas prisoners (arafat has arrested more than 100 since sunday) and try them by tribunal.
Next, we establish and control the borders ourselves between Palestine and Israel, we evict jewish settlers in violation of the camp david accords and explain to Israel that over border incursions by it's armed forces for ANY reason is not acceptable.
Then we take over the public education of the Palestinians, (hate schools) oversee their Police, eliminate Hammas and the other extrimist groups and try and keep the two sides from getting at each other for 20 years or so.
We'll lose troops, we'll be hated and reviled, but 11 million palestinians and 23 million jews might just live long enuff to see another generation live in peace there.
(flame suit on)
Your solution only illustrates why the Hamas, Hizballah and the such hate Isreal, and are anti-western (especially the US). Your ideas are almost solely pro-Isreali, and return the Palestinians to a ghetto administered this time by the US.
Areas of Isreal are already a total police state to Palestinians, especially areas in and around the occupied territories.
Handing over 'suspected' prisoners for tribunal in the United States will only reinforce the view already rampant in the territories that the US is a servant of Isreal.
Children are not taught hate at schools. They don't need to, because the hate is taught by the Isreali army on the streets.
When the stone throwers are shot by Isreali soldiers,or their family thrown out of thier ancestral homes to make way for settlers, or an isreali army observation post.
Neither will the Isreali state allow the wholesale removal of their settlers from the occupied territories, as it is naive to think the US adminstration will even attempt to.
The US will never admonish or deny Isreal support, not while american-jewish lobbyists still manage to wring some holocaust sympathy.
This is why these people hate the US as much as they do Isreal because only the US has the power to stop Isreal, who palestinians consider have been oppressing and terrorising them for decades. But the US won't, thereby literally supporting this terrorism against the people.
And this is why groups like Hamas, and Hizballah still will have the help and support of the Palestinians and why the intifada and killing will probably never end.
Tronsky
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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i agree with you 100% tronski about how hate is created, etc, but i have to say you are dead wrong about hangtime.
in fact he's one of the few voices around here that isnt just mimicking the slop driveled on us by the press every night.
his plan isnt beyond criticsim but you gotta give him credit for at least being a 'bad, troublemaker american' and using his brain.
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-tronski-, what would you propose as a solution?
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Originally posted by Staga:
DMF/Todd/Leviathan what do you expect to see when Israel's tanks rolled to Lebanon?
From 1949 through the 1970s, Lebanon was used as a staging area for attacks on Israel by the PLO. Syria, a longtime militant foe of Israel, also wielded strong influence in Lebanon.
Chicken or egg? It seems to me that Israel rolling tanks into Lebanon and laying siege to Beirut was a disproportionate response to a real problem. By committing acts of terrorism from Lebanon, the PLO gave Israeli hardliners the gumption to invade and occupy in the name of national security.
See what I mean? Extremism begets extremism. Terrorists attacks only serve to strengthen Israeli resolve -- and disproportionate Israeli responses keep feeding the terrorist mindset. Obviously, whatever both sides are doing right now isn't working.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by mrfish:
so you must be disgusted that israel chose to rocket palestinians during the post sep 11th cease-fire too?
Yes, actually. You seem to have read my message as some sort of pro-Israeli tirade when it's nothing of the sort.
But do you honestly think that some moron laden with TNT who blows up himself and a dozen people on a bus will change things for the Palestinians? Terrorism is a dead end... a bloody dead end. If anything, the Hamas attacks last weekend finally convinced even the Israeli doves that Arafat either was unwilling or unable to push for peace.
The result? More and wider support among Israelis for military action. If Palestinian militants somehow hope to force a final showdown over the fate of Israel and Palestine by their actions, I hate to break it to them... Israel would win.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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A solution in the Middle East and a Popularity Contest are mutually exclusive propositions..
Given.. that only the US is in a position to curb excesses by Israel
Given.. that only the US is in a position to propose and establish a Palestinian State, recognised by the UN.
So.. nobody over there will be happy with Israel eradicating 20 years of progress towards peace... any more than they are happy about Hamas or Hizbollah turning young kids into martyrs and israli's into corpses.
If the USA moves in, establishes a DMZ and border crossings, establishes and recognizes a paletinian state, establishes a moderate government, revamps education and starts to work on the poverty AND kicks the israli's outta the contested territories and forcibly (if necessary) institutes a cease-fire then MAYBE there will be a peace of sorts.
It stinks.. I know. I can't think of anything else that stinks less. :(
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Clearly, Arafat must deliver the Hamas leaders to Israel or be exiled or assasinated himself.
This should really be worded like that: "Arafat must deliver the Hamas leaders to Israel and be assasinated by Hamas himself"[/i]
Who do you think he fears more - civilized and polite Israelis with their "demonstration" strikes or murderous bastards breathing down his neck who would waste him in no time?
...we evict jewish settlers in violation of the camp david accords...
Better yet, lallow them stay there and withdraw protection from them. While I support Israel in general, there are quite a few of hardline relgious fundamentalists in Israel that it will be much better off witout.
miko
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There will be war, and soon. Israel will evict the Palestinians from the West Bank, and possibly Gaza (they might retake the Sinai peninsula too, simply to have a smaller land border), and then there will be relative peace.
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S!
If anyone thinks that destroying the Palestinian Authority and ejecting or killing Arafat is going to solve the problems of the Middle East, they are sadly mistaken.
Arafat is not the most savoury of characters, but he has tried. However, he no longer commands the situation in Palestinian areas, and the militants no longer obey him.
The reason he no longer has authority can be laid at the doorstep of Israel and Sharon in particular. Israel continues to encourage settlement in areas clearly laid aside in the Oslo agreements as Palestinian territory, and Sharon continues to practice his own brand of terror. Arafat is powerless to do anything, and his people refuse to sit still and be bombed and shelled and shot by Israelis. So they have taken to following the flags of extremists and terrorists. In their minds, the middle ground is no longer a viable option when Israeli .50 cals are coming through their Apartment blocks walls at night, and Gunships are firing rockets at crowded market places.
Sharon has proved in the past that he is not to be trusted with the Palestinian people`s welfare, (look at Shatila Refugee camp incident in the 1982 Lebanon invasion where 5,000 Palestinians were massacred by Lebanese Christians under the orders of the Israeli Army Forces commanded by Sharon) and he continues to prove that point. He is a terrorist no less than the bombers in Haifa.
By his actions, he is inciting another generation of Palestinian terrorists, more implacable and fanatical.
They are being created at this very moment.
They will be directing their anger at the U.S. too. God help us if they get their hands on some weapons of serious destructive power.
I am not excusing the behaviour of the Suicide bombers, no one can. It is reprehensible and unacceptable behavior. But the reasons many young Palestinians are taking this path are not hard to find. Extremism is met by extremism. Anger is met by anger.
The United States needs to take the situation firmly in hand and put maximum pressure on BOTH the Israelis and the Palestinians to come to an agreement.
Sharon`s solution, that of destroying the Palestinian State and absolutely refusing to negotiate, is going to fail.
Even if he killed or ejected every Palestinian in the Occupied territories, (which fanatics in his party and in the Right wing religious parties are calling for) he would still have to deal with the millions of others living in other countries who would find a way to get their revenge.
And if Israel found a way to hunt them down, then Muslims across the world would take up the cause. Are we going to kill the 5 billion Muslims in the world to solve this problem?
The only solution is the existence of BOTH an Israeli and Palestinian State in the Middle East.
Otherwise WE in the west are going to pay for Israeli intransigence.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
i agree with you 100% tronski about how hate is created, etc, but i have to say you are dead wrong about hangtime.
in fact he's one of the few voices around here that isnt just mimicking the slop driveled on us by the press every night.
his plan isnt beyond criticsim but you gotta give him credit for at least being a 'bad, troublemaker american' and using his brain.
Agreed.
Unfortunately I didn't portray my tone better and I applaud Hangtime for not going the "kill them all" route.
However I seriously doubt the Palestinian state would be peaceful being administered by another 'foreign' power. The isreali's are already regarded by the people as an occupying force.
There is no real solution unless the Isreali army can be completely restricted. Just as the Russian forces in KFOR were viewed with suspicion by Nato, so would an american enforced DMZ in Palestine. However only the americans would be completely capable to force the Isrealis to respect border restrictions. The Isreali state has shown complete disreguard for UN security council resolutions, so I doubt the army or palestinian terror groups would allow an armed UN peacekeeping force in the occupied territories to remain peacefully.
Tronsky
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I think the problem would be finding any other nation besides the US that would want to touch this "tar baby".
If a call went out for troops to enforce a UN peacekeeping operation... troops ready to fight... who else would answer?
For that matter, what other nation is directly and publicly invovled in trying to work out a peace agreement there?
Answer is NONE.
Why is that?
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The Palestinians, given the choice of extermination and exile again at the hands of Israel or the US establishing and maintaining a border, while supporting and guarenteeing their self determination as a nation-state... Well; I think they'd go for it.
If it's obvious to us that only the US can bring Israel to heel and establish and at least initialy administer a Palestinian State..
... can Dubyah do it?
[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]