Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on June 16, 2005, 07:35:05 PM
-
wow kinda scary if you think about it
Your ISP as Net watchdog
By Declan McCullagh
http://news.com.com/Your+ISP+as+Net+watchdog/2100-1028_3-5748649.html
The U.S. Department of Justice is quietly shopping around the explosive idea of requiring Internet service providers to retain records of their customers' online activities.
Data retention rules could permit police to obtain records of e-mail chatter, Web browsing or chat-room activity months after Internet providers ordinarily would have deleted the logs--that is, if logs were ever kept in the first place. No U.S. law currently mandates that such logs be kept.
In theory, at least, data retention could permit successful criminal and terrorism prosecutions that otherwise would have failed because of insufficient evidence. But privacy worries and questions about the practicality of assembling massive databases of customer behavior have caused a similar proposal to stall in Europe and could engender stiff opposition domestically.
News.context
What's new:
The U.S. Department of Justice is mulling data retention rules that could permit police to obtain records of e-mail, browsing or chat-room activity months after ISPs ordinarily would have deleted the logs--if they were ever kept in the first place.
Bottom line:
Data retention could aid criminal and terrorism prosecutions, but privacy worries and questions about the practicality of assembling massive databases of customer behavior could engender stiff opposition to the proposal.
More stories on this topic
In Europe, the Council of Justice and Home Affairs ministers say logs must be kept for between one and three years. One U.S. industry representative, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the Justice Department is interested in at least a two-month requirement.
Justice Department officials endorsed the concept at a private meeting with Internet service providers and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, according to interviews with multiple people who were present. The meeting took place on April 27 at the Holiday Inn Select in Alexandria, Va.
"It was raised not once but several times in the meeting, very emphatically," said Dave McClure, president of the U.S. Internet Industry Association, which represents small to midsize companies. "We were told, 'You're going to have to start thinking about data retention if you don't want people to think you're soft on child porn.'"
McClure said that while the Justice Department representatives argued that Internet service providers should cooperate voluntarily, they also raised the "possibility that we should create by law a standard period of data retention." McClure added that "my sense was that this is something that they've been working on for a long time."
This represents an abrupt shift in the Justice Department's long-held position that data retention is unnecessary and imposes an unacceptable burden on Internet providers. In 2001, the Bush administration expressed "serious reservations about broad mandatory data retention regimes."
The current proposal appears to originate with the Justice Department's Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section, which enforces federal child pornography laws. But once mandated by law, the logs likely would be mined during terrorism, copyright infringement and even routine criminal investigations. (The Justice Department did not respond to a request for comment on Wednesday.)
"Preservation" vs. "Retention"
At the moment, Internet service providers typically discard any log file that's no longer required for business reasons such as network monitoring, fraud prevention or billing disputes. Companies do, however, alter that general rule when contacted by police performing an investigation--a practice called data preservation.
A 1996 federal law called the Electronic Communication Transactional Records Act regulates data preservation. It requires Internet providers to retain any "record" in their possession for 90 days "upon the request of a governmental entity."
"We were told, 'You're going to have to start thinking about data retention if you don't want people to think you're soft on child porn.'"
--Dave McClure, president, U.S. Internet Industry AssociationChild protection advocates say that this process can lead police to dead ends if they don't move quickly enough and log files are discarded automatically. Also, many Internet service providers don't record information about instant-messaging conversations or Web sites visited--data that would prove vital to an investigation.
"Law enforcement agencies are often having 20 reports referred to them a week by the National Center," said Michelle Collins, director of the exploited child unit for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "By the time legal process is drafted, it could be 10, 15, 20 days. They're completely dependent on information from the ISPs to trace back an individual offender."
Collins, who participated in the April meeting, said that she had not reached a conclusion about how long log files should be retained. "There are so many various business models...I don't know that there's going to be a clear-cut answer to what would be the optimum amount of time for a company to maintain information," she said.
McClure, from the U.S. Internet Industry Association, said he counter-proposed the idea of police agencies establishing their own guidelines that would require them to seek logs soon after receiving tips.
Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, compared the Justice Department's idea to the since-abandoned Clipper Chip, a brainchild of the Clinton and first Bush White House. Initially the Clipper Chip--an encryption system with a backdoor for the federal government--was supposed to be voluntary, but declassified documents show that backdoors were supposed to become mandatory.
"Even if your concern is chasing after child pornographers, the packets don't come pre-labeled that way," Rotenberg said. "What effectively happens is that all ISP customers, when that data is presented to the government, become potential targets of subsequent investigations."
A divided Europe
The Justice Department's proposal could import a debate that's been simmering in Europe for years.
In Europe, a data retention proposal prepared by four nations said that all telecommunications providers must retain generalized logs of phone calls, SMS messages, e-mail communications and other "Internet protocols" for at least one year. Logs would include the addresses of Internet sites and identities of the correspondents but not necessarily the full content of the communication.
Previous Next Even after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Bush administration criticized that approach. In November 2001, Mark Richard from the Justice Department's criminal division said in a speech in Brussels, Belgium, that the U.S. method offers Internet providers the flexibility "to retain or destroy the records they generate based upon individual assessments of resources, architectural limitations, security and other business needs."
France, the United Kingdom, Ireland and Sweden jointly submitted their data retention proposal to the European Parliament in April 2004. Such mandatory logging was necessary, they argued, "for the purpose of prevention, investigation, detection and prosecution of crime or criminal offenses including terrorism."
But a report prepared this year by Alexander Alvaro on behalf of the Parliament's civil liberties and home affairs committee slammed the idea, saying it may violate the European Convention on Human Rights.
Also, Alvaro wrote: "Given the volume of data to be retained, particularly Internet data, it is unlikely that an appropriate analysis of the data will be at all possible. Individuals involved in organized crime and terrorism will easily find a way to prevent their data from being traced." He calculated that if an Internet provider were to retain all traffic data, the database would swell to a size of 20,000 to 40,000 terabytes--too large to search using existing technology.
On June 7, the European Parliament voted by a show of hands to adopt Alvaro's report and effectively snub the mandatory data retention plan. But the vote may turn out to have been largely symbolic: The Council of Justice and Home Affairs ministers have vowed to press ahead with their data retention requirement.
Copyright ©1995-2005 CNET Networks, Inc. All rights reserved
-
if they snoop my records, they'll find some good free porn sites and everyone will be hapy.
-
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
if they snoop my records, they'll find some good free porn sites and everyone will be hapy.
LMAO....maybe not
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,67869,00.html?tw=rss.TOP
:lol
-
It sure would make investigations a lot simpler, they could work from the website backwards, a lot less work.
Just identify "seditious" sites and pop all the guys who visit, no muss no fuss.
shamus
-
Originally posted by Shamus
It sure would make investigations a lot simpler, they could work from the website backwards, a lot less work.
Just identify "seditious" sites and pop all the guys who visit, no muss no fuss.
shamus
or develop computerized database profiles of criminal surfing habbits. Unleash a few servers searching for those profiles and make some arrests. Computers don't make mistakes.
-
I can feel it from the first day I'm here.:(
-
THATS IT!
no more pr0n for me :D
-
It'll never work, to much data flows. Do you know what sizes core routers are these days? Juniper's TX-Matrix is a 2.6 Terabit system, imagine trying to capture that sort of data.
-
My local Mom & Pop ISP just sold out to a mega ISP based in Utah. I'm sure they already have a file on me.
-
Pffft... this "cure" is worse than disease.
I suspect that child porn isn't nearly as rampant as the politicians seem to think.
Once again, it's the appearance of doing _something_ rather than working on meaningful legislation. Of course, "we can't appear to be soft on child porn" because this could affect our chances at being re-elected. It's bad juju if you go on TV and state that this crime is blown way out of proportion.
-
Originally posted by Sandman
Pffft... this "cure" is worse than disease.
I suspect that child porn isn't nearly as rampant as the politicians seem to think.
Once again, it's the appearance of doing _something_ rather than working on meaningful legislation. Of course, "we can't appear to be soft on child porn" because this could affect our chances at being re-elected. It's bad juju if you go on TV and state that this crime is blown way out of proportion.
You suspect wrong. As a regular *cough* newsgroup user I see the stuff posted A LOT, its quite sickening, I could probably find you a newsgroup with 2000+ kiddipron images posted in less than 48 hours pretty easily. I'm guessing a lot of its coming out of Eastern block countries these days. I'm also thinking that what we see on the net newsgroups is only the tip of the iceberg.
Its rampant, its growing, unfortunately its occuring out of reach of our law enforcement, we can however endeavour to cut the "demand" factor at our end.
There also seems to be a movement within the newsgroup community to "take care" of the sources of these images. You'd be surpised what a angry mob of old school netters can do.
-
Those are probably bait images posted by law enforcement.
-
A bad idea.. I'd rather take the crimes, than let the big bro watch this carefully.
Otherwise we might as well attach a camera to our heads 24/7, with a direct link to the government agencies. GPS tracker would be also included and the position data would be saved at all times.
Is that what we need?
I thought we were different than the communists and fascists..
-
Originally posted by rpm
Those are probably bait images posted by law enforcement.
Voice of experiance here???? :p
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Voice of experiance here???? :p
I can remember reading an article decades ago about the amount of child porn sent via post. The vast majority was from law enforcement sting operations.
-
Hmmmmm.... maybe archive all the threads in the O Club?
Heeeeey wait a minute!!!!!
-
"Its rampant, its growing, unfortunately its occuring out of reach of our law enforcement, we can however endeavour to cut the "demand" factor at our end.
"
i think he was saying that despite the volume, its spread out over a relativly small number of people.
i wish one of them virus making morons would make something to target this ****, they can have the "fun" of ****ing **** up while doing something worthwhile.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Voice of experiance here???? :p
Ya know, I started to make a child pron joke about Vulcan's post. But I thought to myself, "that would be pretty sorry of me to do that".
I also read the story Sandy was talking about.
-
Link? Now would the link make the same conclusion to day?
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
I could probably find you a newsgroup with 2000+ kiddipron images posted in less than 48 hours pretty easily. I'm guessing a lot of its coming out of Eastern block countries these days.
muhehehe of course all those bad girls are from communist countries. There are not baaad littla girls in western world .. They are only decent people .. and costumers of those porn sites :D
Actualy im working on something around child porn right now. Authorities are somehow teethless agains their own stupidity. Its kinda funny.
Anyway untill i were in "this bussines" i expected that Europian police are cooperating with bigger efficiency.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
wow kinda scary if you think about it
Its easy to reconize whats point of this law. If they will enforce ISPs to comply with that law in less that one year, they are serious about it.
If they will give ISPs more that 2 years, its just "for preferences" law. Later on somebody will find that its BS and they will silently cancel it before it will be mandatory.
About technical problems...... As Vulcan mentioned there would be serious problems with storing sutch data. Problem is not in sniffing of 10Gb networks, you can easily sniff "closer to costumers" to avoid that, but storing sutch data is simply impossible.
But there were much more interesting law, whitch has passed US senate in the past.
That law allow police to put their own sniffer into ISPs network w/o order of court. Im not quite sure about this one, its a bit longer.
-
Originally posted by lada
muhehehe of course all those bad girls are from communist countries. There are not baaad littla girls in western world .. They are only decent people .. and costumers of those porn sites :D
Actualy im working on something around child porn right now. Authorities are somehow teethless agains their own stupidity. Its kinda funny.
Anyway untill i were in "this bussines" i expected that Europian police are cooperating with bigger efficiency.
Don't be a twit, you know that the kiddie pron is bad men exploiting little girls. There are eastern block countries where the police don't have the resources to deal with this problem. "in this business", umm yeah right...
-
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the same thing I said about the Patriot Act, which is what this sounds like to me.
Violation of the 1st amendement: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
As well as a violation of the 4th amendment:The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Perhaps the good this would do would also bring harm. Someone searches "terrorist activities" and google and they are now being watched. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if this is already going on.
-
Nirvana you have made an incomplete statement with your post. It doesn't show why you think it's a violation of either of those ammendments.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Don't be a twit, you know that the kiddie pron is bad men exploiting little girls. There are eastern block countries where the police don't have the resources to deal with this problem. "in this business", umm yeah right...
Ahh i see that you have no clue about east. Let me educate you a little bit.
Here is piece of reality.
I will use slovakia as an example.
There is guy in slovakia, who organize making pictures. he is also the one, who pay money to girls or to parents. Many of child porn is made with "sold" children. Most of "nude pictures only". Once they will make pictures and video, they put it on CD and cross boarder to France. After 2 days there is new series of lolita Ginger on one italian server, whitch is connected trough austrian ISP. There is probably only L2 from servers to ISP and its usualy in 2 diferent countries. Or they use some VPN gateway. Ok.. so now we have pictures on italian web site. Domain is own by subject whitch doesnt exist. It registred .com and organization is located on non-existing address in Ney York. Lets buy an account. CC has been sent to paypal like company whitch have just referal number of client. This company will send you login information via email. Money has been taken buy Bank at Kayman islands.
Do you realy belive, that if you will remove that guy, whos searching for girls to buy, you will crush sutch organization ?
may be if you will cut his head on public, you might demotivate some other. But you didnt stop bussines.
Its easier to find some children to buy and it doesnt matter if you buy then with or without parents permition, that find someone whos able organize sutch bussiness.
So now you know how it works in reality. Do you still think, that problem is in "poor, silly&lazy" eastern countries ?
Btw Vulcan how many eastern countries did you visit ? How many times did you cooperate with police from those countries ?
-
Originally posted by lada
Ahh i see that you have no clue about east. Let me educate you a little bit.
Here is piece of reality.
I will use slovakia as an example.
There is guy in slovakia, who organize making pictures. he is also the one, who pay money to girls or to parents. Many of child porn is made with "sold" children. Most of "nude pictures only". Once they will make pictures and video, they put it on CD and cross boarder to France. Do you realy belive, that if you will remove that guy, whos searching for girls to buy, you will crush sutch organization ?
may be if you will cut his head on public, you might demotivate some other. But you didnt stop bussines.
Its easier to find some children to buy and it doesnt matter if you buy then with or without parents permition, that find someone whos able organize sutch bussiness.
So now you know how it works in reality. Do you still think, that problem is in "poor, silly&lazy" eastern countries ?
So you deny that an "Eastern" country is not to blame for the availability of child porn and use this example to demonstrate it?!?!?! You just made his point Lada. You just confirmed his assertion that the source was from an "Eastern" country and is procured in a very sleazy manner with parents SELLING their child.
I'll agree with you that cutting off the head of that one guy won't stop the entire process except. It will certainly eliminate him as a source.
Now if this process is actually a "known" system, why are the officials of this "Eastern" country not taking action? Just because by taking one action it won't just stop? Perhaps something should be done even if it is hard to do.
So again with your example you prove or at least give a confirmation to his "assertion" (inplied by you as he didn't state it) that a "poor, silly&lazy" eastern countries" has a hand in it.
This may be a language problem but I don't think so. It looks more like a poorly thought out rationaization of a global problem.
-
I described one case on whitch i used to work one month ago. From experience of police if they will crack down all but the one whos brain of this organization, they will stop it for 6-12 months.
If they will crack down whole organization, they will stop it for about 2 years.
Im not denying his statement, that there is child porn in europe. I deny his statement, that auth. do nothing. Every year we can hear, that police arested zillion of people in cooperation with interpol or police from other country from child porn bussines.
But if somebody think that eastern europe is paradise for child porn or its only here, then he probably never watch child porn, coz he have no clue :D
Child porn is wide spread bussines as slavery. You can find it in almost every coutnry in Europe include UK.
May be i shall find some web with australian child porn for vulcan, then he might get a clue :)
edit: lol that was easy task... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3702706.stm
-
So you say it IS a problem for Eastern Country then. You say you used to work on it. Why did you stop? If it IS such a problem there you should not have stopped working on it, now get back in there and get to work.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
So you say it IS a problem for Eastern Country then. You say you used to work on it. Why did you stop? If it IS such a problem there you should not have stopped working on it, now get back in there and get to work.
Ok i will say it again and i will be plain this time.
Problem of child porn in east europe is as spear as in western europe, australia and rest of the world. ( i used to read somewhere, that 55% of porn servers are located in US, but i have no links right now)
I stoped because my task has been done. Im not policeman. I only provided some kind of services for them. While they are collection evidence about all people involved over here, they are cooperating (and its very sloooow cooperation) with colegues abroad. But its looooong time project.
-
try and keep your story straight lada, and thanks for proving my point.
-
But back to the theme.
We started this discusion because somebody mentioned that silly "law".
It wont help with fight agains this type of crime, because one organization is usualy spreaded accross the globe.
So there is no point on logging users data, access by ISP.
-
Therein lies the problem, perhaps, in the east where little girls are sold into slavery by their parents (according to Lada's post).
The task is hard therefore we shouldn't even try as we may fail. Lets just ignore it and wring our hands instead. Collaboration is SO much easier.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Therein lies the problem, perhaps, in the east where little girls are sold into slavery by their parents (according to Lada's post).
No you miss understood. They are "sold" for childporn, mostly for making nude pictures. But we arent talking about thousands cases. We are talking about case i used to work on.
Slavery is another problem world wide. Many children from slavery branch go trough chilporn or prostitution.
-
Originally posted by lada
Slavery is another problem world wide. Many children from slavery branch go trough chilporn or prostitution.
Yep, thank god I've got my soft-air-pistol to fend off the slave traders in our area. If its not the freakin slave traders its the gd pirates... HARRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
-
You better buy some proper gun if you wanna get rid of this http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Australia.htm
i sugges this tool http://www.kalashnikov.us/AK_twins_3.jpg
-
Amendment 1 violation because they won't let you say what you wan in a way because if you say something they *think* is a source of terrorist activity they can seize your assets could they not? Amendment 4 well jeez just let them look at all the places you have visited because they *think* they have a nic elittle hunch that you may be involved in terrorist activity. As far as i'm concerned I don't think its worth the resources to save all that information. As many terrorists as there are, how many normal, everyday people are there? 15 year olds doing research papers. You should be secure in your belongings, which in my opinion, include where you have been on the internet.
-
Originally posted by lada
You better buy some proper gun if you wanna get rid of this http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Australia.htm
i sugges this tool http://www.kalashnikov.us/AK_twins_3.jpg
You really nailed it that time lada ;)
CAUTION: The following links have been culled from the web to illuminate the situation in Australia. Some of these links may lead to websites that present allegations that are unsubstantiated or even false. No attempt has been made to validate their authenticity or to verify their content.