Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on June 17, 2005, 12:49:17 AM
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Halliburton to build new $30 mln Guantanamo jail
Thu Jun 16, 7:21 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Halliburton Co. unit will build a new $30 million detention facility and security fence at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where the United States is holding about 520 foreign terrorism suspects, the Defense Department announced on Thursday.
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The announcement comes the same week that Vice President
Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld defended the jail after U.S. lawmakers said it had created an image problem for the United States.
Critics have decried the indefinite detention of Guantanamo detainees, whom the United States has denied rights accorded under the Geneva Conventions to prisoners of war. The prison was called "the gulag of our times" in a recent Amnesty International report.
An air-conditioned two-story prison, known as Detention Camp #6, will be built at Guantanamo to house 220 men. It will include exercise areas, medical and dental spaces as well as a security control room, the contract announcement said.
The contract announcement did not specify whether the new prison would also hold foreign terror suspects.
Under the deal with the Norfolk, Virginia-based U.S. Naval Facilities Engineering Command, Atlantic, the work is to be wrapped up by July 2006. It is part of a larger contract that could be worth up to $500 million if all options are exercised, the Defense Department said.
The project is to be carried out by Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root Services of Arlington, Virginia. It includes site work, heating ventilation and air conditioning, plumbing and electrical work, the
Pentagon said.
The first prisoners arrived at the prison camp in January 2002 after the Sept. 11, 2001, hijacked airliner attacks on New York and the Pentagon.
The Pentagon has said about 520 detainees from more than 40 countries are being held at the prison, without giving a precise figure.
Rumsfeld said on Tuesday U.S. taxpayers had spend more than $100 million on construction costs and no other facility could replace it.
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...and to think some people think Cheney might be corrupt. I don't see it...
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I'll say two things here:
1) Cheney has no say in who get's that contract. None.
2) This posting articles without any comment on them is getting old quickly.
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ah, yes. The new Syrian Wing.
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What the article fails to mention is whether this was a no-bid contract or not.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I'll say two things here:
1) Cheney has no say in who get's that contract. None.
You're certain?
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Originally posted by Mini D
I'll say two things here:
1) Cheney has no say in who get's that contract. None.
2) This posting articles without any comment on them is getting old quickly.
a. not true. he has a whole hell of a lot of sway.
b. sorry if you feel that i need to add my two cents to the passing, but then critics get old fast too.
just the messenger.
;)
p.s. bedard is a great graphic artist. my personal favorite of his works is entitled "the failure of communism" where two ducks have painted themselves into a corner....followed as a close second by ducks on mars.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You're certain?
Yes. He does not award them. Not in any capacity. Not even in a "no-bid" capacity.
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Originally posted by JB88
a. not true. he has a whole hell of a lot of sway.
Sway? That's a neet intangeable to grab ahold of. "Sway". Wow... I like the sound of it. It doesn't really mean anything to rebut the "not true" statement, but it's vague and pointless... so it works.b. sorry if you feel that i need to add my two cents to the passing, but then critics get old fast too.
Critics?
Join the discussion bud. This is about as close to trolling as it gets. Really.just the messenger.
What message are you trying to deliver? I just see you copying and pasting.
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darling, in case youve been in a coma please let me inform you (and i think that others will corroberate this) that i am often found voicing my opinions from the rafters.
there are times however when i cut an paste these articles because i find them interesting and worthy of discussion and rather than starting a flame war based on my own bent, i simply drop them into the arena for consideration.
in most of them i will interject my opinion at some point but not always.
besides, you are not the boss of me and i dont recall finding a copy of "BB etiquite" by mini d in any bookstores best sellers list so youll forgive me if i politely decline a grudge match with an unarmed eunic or anyone else who might consider my style inappropriate.
as for sway.
well. im stickin by it.
so there.
:)
88
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Originally posted by Mini D
I'll say two things here:
1) Cheney has no say in who get's that contract. None.
2) This posting articles without any comment on them is getting old quickly.
1) Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight
2) Posting legitimate news stories for others to read and comment on are not allowed in the new O'Club? I thought that was one of the chief arguements for reopening it, it's a great news source.
Originally posted by rpm
Remember, you do not have to read, respond or comment on a topic or post just because it is there. Just like listening to the radio or watching TV, you have the option of changing the channel, ignoring it or simply turning the dang thing off.
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Cmon Mini, that's how it works in the political food chain, right down to your local contractor.
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30 Million for 220 inmates? That is just over 136k / inmate.
According to this 1992 GAO report, Halliburton is charging on the high end when inflation is accounted for.
Factors That Affect Construction and Operations Costs (http://nicic.org/Misc/URLShell.aspx?SRC=Catalog&REFF=http://nicic.org/Library/010580&ID=010580&TYPE=PDF&URL=http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GGD-92-73)
Construction costs varied widely among the medium security state and federal prisons we sampled. At the 36 medium security prisons included in our sample (32 state, 4 federal), construction costs ranged from $11,243 to $93,333 per bed and averaged $66,374
at 3%, average inflation since '92, $93,333 grows to $137,000 and taking into account materials are not locally available due to political concerns, 137k/inmate (unfortunately) doesn't sound out of line.
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don't forget the fruit. we give 'em two kinds of fruit every day.
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And the pita bread with margarine!
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with rice ..and double vegtables.
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Sure thing JB... just seems like a ripsnortian cut and paste mission from you since the O'Club has been back. I'd hope you'd be able to see the difference between someone saying something is getting old and you "being told not to do it", but I see I've hoped for too much.
As for the whole "Halliburton Contract" issue: You'd think that no congressman from any committee would have any idea that halliburton is an issue. I mean, the VP tells them who to award contracts to and they do it... right? I mean, it's easy to sway the same group over and over and over. It's not like they read the news or anything like that. Nah, they just get "swayed" all the time. Those poor lemmings.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Sure thing JB... just seems like a ripsnortian cut and paste mission from you since the O'Club has been back.
JB88, any references to me is the highest honor you can get on this BBS. Basically what you've done is copied and pasted an article that gets so deep under ones skin, that they take extreme exception to it, then lash out with a "Rip-n-paste" or "Ripsnortian".
Congrats! You've managed to get someones blood pressure up without any comments. That is quite the achievement on this particular BBS.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
30 Million for 220 inmates? That is just over 136k / inmate.
According to this 1992 GAO report, Halliburton is charging on the high end when inflation is accounted for.
at 3%, average inflation since '92, $93,333 grows to $137,000 and taking into account materials are not locally available due to political concerns, 137k/inmate (unfortunately) doesn't sound out of line.
Sheesh it would be cheaper to buy them off for $50k apiece.
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"sway"? isn't that what liberals hips do when they are out cruising?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
"sway"? isn't that what liberals hips do when they are out cruising?
lazs [/QUOTE
An they wonder why the O'Club got closed down? Calling people homosexuals when you disagree with their politics - or assume you disagree with their politics shows a fear of your own sexuality that perhaps is indicative of trying to "prove" how masculine - and non homosexual you are yourself.
Why would you have to bother unless........
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now that was an interesting post...
It is bad to intimidate that people are homosexual unless you do it? and..
Would you say that more gay people were liberal or conservative?
lazs
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Syrian wing? What about the Saudi complex?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Syrian wing? What about the Saudi complex?
Already established in the upper class neighborhoods of Miami. :D
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Already established in the upper class neighborhoods of Miami. :D
Well ok. As long as it isn't in the US.
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I thought this was exactly the kind of construction the Army Corp of Engineers or some other military construction group would do. Why the hell are we giving contracts out for stuff that can be done in-house?
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Even if the Corps of Engineers is responsible they use contract labor and companies to do the actual construction. The Corps may be in charge but there still has to be resources for actual construction.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Even if the Corps of Engineers is responsible they use contract labor and companies to do the actual construction. The Corps may be in charge but there still has to be resources for actual construction.
So the Corp is just a bunch of supervisors? No one actually builds anything?
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I like the bellybutton in Holden's avatard.
-SW
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Originally posted by Raider179
So the Corp is just a bunch of supervisors? No one actually builds anything?
Depends on the size of the project. There are lots of things the Corps was responsible for like public improvements (dams etc) but they didn't do all the construction. Smaller projects or strictly military jobs especially in hostile areas yes they'd do the job. I'm not an expert by any means. I was not an Engineer in the Army. I just was trained to break things and kill the enemy.
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Our things or their things? Enquiring minds want to know!
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Thanks for the read 88! 8)
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Toad, Lets not let details get in the way here. It's just things ok. Ownership can be a fleeting thing so lets not let the technicalities get in the freaking way! :mad: The last thing you want to do when breaking things is to have to get the thing manual out to decide if it's their thing or our thing. It slows the flow of the operation. Why do you think one of the best mottos for the Military is Lead, Follow or Get the Hell OUT OF THE WAY!
Drive on........
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Every time someone brings up Haliburton getting a contract, I ask the SAME QUESTION, and get no answer.
Question:
If Haliburton was getting NO BID contracts awarded during the Clinton administration, why is it such a big deal when they get ANY contract now?
Why is it a surprise that Haliburton and subsidiaries get military contracts when they are the company the military and DoD has preferred for decades?
What is the big deal? The company that got more contracts for military work than any other during the 3 previous administrations continues to get the majority of the contracts now, during this administration.
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Originally posted by Toad
Our things or their things? Enquiring minds want to know!
HEh I never made any distiction esp when it came to humvees.
When they first came out I really really really tried to get one stuck in the mud or anything I could find. I couldn't do it.
When it came to getting gear I scrounged. (ok I thieved for my unit.) What can I say I "found" alot of useful gear for our unit just laying around "abandond".
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
If Haliburton was getting NO BID contracts awarded during the Clinton administration, why is it such a big deal when they get ANY contract now?
Cheney is the vice president and former CEO of Haliburton. Not sure of the amount, but estimates of his stock in Haliburtion exceeds $60 Million.
Keep in mind... This Haliburton no-bid nonsense started when he was SECDEF.
Is he doing anything illegal? Hard to say, but it smells funny.
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Isn't Gitmo a Navy base? Why aren't the Seabee's doing it? They are not just "supervisors" as the Army Corps of Engineers are.
Wait, then Halliburton couldn't overcharge the taxpayers again. We couldn't have that happen with this administration.
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Originally posted by Raider179
I thought this was exactly the kind of construction the Army Corp of Engineers or some other military construction group would do. Why the hell are we giving contracts out for stuff that can be done in-house?
From what I've seen, over the years, the Corps of Engineers designs and supervises most large contracts, and only handles actual building in war zones or other hostile areas. Anything major, in a non hostile area, will be handled by civilian contractors, with the Corps of Engineers handling design and oversight.
That being the case, and the project in question being outside the U.S., Haliburton being a preferred military contractor for decades is the most likely choice to handle the job. It is a company the military and the DoD has known and deealt with for decades. They are familiar, and the DoD considers them to be reliable and agreeable.
Military construction contracts and projects are unlike civilian jobs. Having worked on projects for the DoD and the DoVA, I can tell you the system works very differently. And the GOVERNMENT drives much of the cost up by THEIR specifications. Even the most menial of tasks are done by people who are either 5 positions above the level required for the task, or at least paid the labor scale equivalent to that level.
For example, we could not use an electrician's helper, paid $.25 an hour in 1982 on DoVA jobs. We had to use a journeyman electrician, and pay him at least $11.65 an hour. An electrician who would normally earn $14 - $18 an hour made a minimum of $24 an hour. So that getting assigned to a DoVA job was a treat reserved for the best, most reliable, company favorites. I drew DoVA jobs ANY time they came up. And we got preferential treatment when we bid because we were a known contractor they preferred to use.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Cheney is the vice president and former CEO of Haliburton. Not sure of the amount, but estimates of his stock in Haliburtion exceeds $60 Million.
Keep in mind... This Haliburton no-bid nonsense started when he was SECDEF.
Is he doing anything illegal? Hard to say, but it smells funny.
Again, after looking around to see what everyone was complaining about, and after talking to dozens of friends who have been in the military for decades, nothing is different now that Cheney is Vice President than it was when any other adminisatration was in office.
Cheney didn't invent the no bid government contract (not EXACTLY what you're saying, but more to the point, EXACTLY what people a implying or saying), that is utter nonsense. It does not apply to Haliburton any more than it does anyone else that I've heard of, again after asking people who have been there for decades.
I'm STILL asking, what is the difference between Haliburton getting those contracts NOW and say TWELVE years ago? They got them when Cheney was neither SecDef nor VP, so where is the big scandal?
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I'm STILL asking, what is the difference between Haliburton getting those contracts NOW and say TWELVE years ago?
The conflict of interest did'nt exist when he was not in office.
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Originally posted by rpm
The conflict of interest did'nt exist when he was not in office.
So your position is that the Dod and the military should have to abandon using their preferred contractor because of some sort of perceived conflict, despite the fact that nothing has changed between them.:rolleyes:
Or the current administration is wrong for using the same contractor under the same rules as the previous three administrations.:rolleyes:
Or this is just another attempted witch hunt.:aok
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Have the military build it for a heck of a alot cheaper.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So your position is that the Dod and the military should have to abandon using their preferred contractor because of some sort of perceived conflict, despite the fact that nothing has changed between them.:rolleyes:
Or the current administration is wrong for using the same contractor under the same rules as the previous three administrations.:rolleyes:
Or this is just another attempted witch hunt.:aok
Do you not understand what a conflict of interest is?
Let's say a guy gets a job in charge of Billions of dollars of public funds and needs to construct a new public building. There are 2 companies that built them in the past. One just happens to be owned in part by him and has a long history of overbilling. It would be unethical for that company to do the job because of the percieved conflict of interest. Not to mention, they have a history of padding the bill.
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Actually, I think it is you that is a bit confused as to what a "conflict of interest" is.
If the vice president were in a position to decide which contractor was used, there would be a conflict of interest. If the VP used his influence to pressure people into making a decision, it would be a conflict of interest. Simply using a company that he holds stock in is not a conflict of interest if he held the stock before joining office.
The huge assumption is that somehow, Chaney is paving the way for haliburton to win these contracts. This is despite the fact that they were winning them with the last 3 administrations. This is the premise of every article and every post on this subject.
The "conflict of interest" postition is actually the least tenable of all of them.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Actually, I think it is you that is a bit confused as to what a "conflict of interest" is.
If the vice president were in a position to decide which contractor was used, there would be a conflict of interest. If the VP used his influence to pressure people into making a decision, it would be a conflict of interest. Simply using a company that he holds stock in is not a conflict of interest if he held the stock before joining office.
The huge assumption is that somehow, Chaney is paving the way for haliburton to win these contracts. This is despite the fact that they were winning them with the last 3 administrations. This is the premise of every article and every post on this subject.
The "conflict of interest" postition is actually the least tenable of all of them.
yup.
you spot on.
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Here is what happens when you let Haliburton build something..
From 2002...
http://www.jsonline.com/news/attack/jan02/10737.asp
Soldiers from domestic military bases began arriving Sunday at the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to help build maximum-security jails for up to 2,000 prisoners from Afghanistan.
The jails in Cuba are being built to accommodate an initial group of about 100 prisoners and could be finished within a week or two, according to Capt. Tom Crosson, a spokesman for the U.S. Southern Command, which oversees Guantanamo.
The United States is now holding more than 300 prisoners.
Officials said the jails could cost between $5 million and $10 million, though other estimates have been higher.
1) GITMO should have already have enough room to house the prisoners. There should not be a reason for a "new" jail.
2) Supposed to have been built to house 2000 prisoners for between $5-10 million.
Haliburton gets a contract that says..."An air-conditioned two-story prison, known as Detention Camp #6, will be built at Guantanamo to house 220 men. It will include exercise areas, medical and dental spaces as well as a security control room, the contract announcement said." oh and lets not forget the fence...
Jeez what a scam. Why a new facility? If criminals in AZ can live in a tent city with that crazy bellybutton sheriff then so can gitmo terrorists.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Cheney is the vice president and former CEO of Haliburton. Not sure of the amount, but estimates of his stock in Haliburtion exceeds $60 Million.
As an employee of the federal govt I can say without hesitation that the VP does not control his finances. Most, if not all, executives, and judges, place their investment assets into blind trusts in order to dispell anytype of conflict. And generally when there is a conflict, the conflicted person is taken from the decision loop.
As for the Haliburton deal, these decisions are made by Contracting Officers, who are not political appointees, and are generally (with a few notable exceptions, Boeing lady) on the up and up. It would be very, very bad, and immediatly known (these contracts are regularly audited) if Dick got on the phone with a CO and said--hey throw Haliburton a bone on this contract.
The fact is that there probably isnt any other company qualified (that is a term of art in govt contracts) to build a prison on a military base. So even if they opened this contract up for bidding the result would probably remain the same.
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Flash to 2004
They have given way to Camp
Delta, a dusty sprawl of cellblocks and interrogation trailers, pockmarked by
guard towers, girdled by rings of razor wire. Kellogg, Brown & Root, the
construction arm of Vice President Dick Cheney's old company Halliburton, is
set to build more cells, guard barracks, and interrogation rooms by mid-2004,
bringing detainee capacity to 1,000 -- and Halliburton's overall income from
Guantánamo to $135 million. Guantánamo -- "Gitmo" to the 2,500 Americans who
serve there -- has become an institution.
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Why award another contract to a company you're already investigating for fraudulant billing practices?
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innocent until proven guilty..if found guilty they will be "debarred" from future contracts
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Originally posted by rpm
Do you not understand what a conflict of interest is?
Let's say a guy gets a job in charge of Billions of dollars of public funds and needs to construct a new public building. There are 2 companies that built them in the past. One just happens to be owned in part by him and has a long history of overbilling. It would be unethical for that company to do the job because of the percieved conflict of interest. Not to mention, they have a history of padding the bill.
Thank you for failing to answer the question, again, as usual.
Cheney has no direct control over Haliburton, nor whether or not they get the contracts.
You PERCEIVE a conflict of interest, therefore one exists, in YOUR mind. You base it not on facts in evidence, but rather on your perception.
Cheney's holdings are in a BLIND TRUST. Cheney DOES NOT have control of the awarding of contracts.
IF you have PROOF that Cheney's holdings are NOT in a blind trust, as required by law, OR that Cheney has control of the awarding of the contracts, OR that Cheney has control of or is pressuring some one who DOES control the awarding of the contracts PLEASE post it here. Bring real proof, not "he said she said" from unverified sources.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Jeez what a scam. Why a new facility? If criminals in AZ can live in a tent city with that crazy bellybutton sheriff then so can gitmo terrorists.
I don't think Amnesty International would agree with you. (From AI/UK in 2002).
Housing detainees in Guantanamo in 6x8-feet chain-link 'cages' at least partially open to the elements would also fall below minimum standards for humane treatment," the organisation said. Standards for the treatment of detainees require adequate shelter from the elements. The cage size would be less than that considered acceptable under US standards for ordinary prisoners confined to cells.
I think the Red Cross has made a few complaints on housing to the US government but they don't publish their findings.
Like it or not, there's a "war for perception" going on right now to; Gitmo is being used as an example of US bararism.. remember AI's "gulag" comment recently?
So, perhaps putting them all up in new digs the equivalent of a 1st class hotel is the counter.
I don't think it'll work. You could house each one in one of SH's palaces and they'd still be martyrs to some. Seems like even if you had actual film of one of them slicing Dan Pearle's throat, Pearle would be somehow shown as the evil one and the slicer would be a poor downtrodden misunderstood victim of US aggression.
That's my perception.
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here's what I just don't understand.
No one has deemd fit to inform the public that the dept. of deffense has relied on B&R (the subsidiary of Haliburton) to practically build every military base of operations in the middle east and balkins for the last 10 years.
THIS IS NOTHING NEW.
It's not like cheny just came into office all of a sudden and BAM they now get all the contracts. They work with the military ALL THE TIME!
PS if the DOD let the VP influence their decision that would be an investigatable offense by the IG.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Jeez what a scam. Why a new facility? If criminals in AZ can live in a tent city with that crazy bellybutton sheriff then so can gitmo terrorists.
Because, while you can treat American citizens any way you want, anywhere in the world, the U.S. MUST treat its enemies as if they were foreign dignitaries and heads of state, on diplomatioc missions. At least according to Amnesty International.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
here's what I just don't understand.
No one has deemd fit to inform the public that the dept. of deffense has relied on B&R (the subsidiary of Haliburton) to practically build every military base of operations in the middle east and balkins for the last 10 years.
THIS IS NOTHING NEW.
It's not like cheny just came into office all of a sudden and BAM they now get all the contracts. They work with the military ALL THE TIME!
PS if the DOD let the VP influence their decision that would be an investigatable offense by the IG.
Well, see what you don't understand, is that a certain segment of society with a certain agenda perceives a conflict of interest, therefore a conflict of interest does indeed exist, regardless of whether or not any facts exist to support the existentce of a conflict of interest.:rolleyes:
I hope that makes it perfectly clear to you.:D
All kidding aside, I've been trying to figure it out for 4 years now. No one can provide me with a reasonable explanation either. I do get a lot of "OH MY GOD! Cheney<---->Haliburton! OH MY GOD, DON'T YOU GET IT? But no substantive expalnations.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Sure thing JB... just seems like a ripsnortian cut and paste mission from you since the O'Club has been back. I'd hope you'd be able to see the difference between someone saying something is getting old and you "being told not to do it", but I see I've hoped for too much.
As for the whole "Halliburton Contract" issue: You'd think that no congressman from any committee would have any idea that halliburton is an issue. I mean, the VP tells them who to award contracts to and they do it... right? I mean, it's easy to sway the same group over and over and over. It's not like they read the news or anything like that. Nah, they just get "swayed" all the time. Those poor lemmings.
many many many people either work for the executive branch or are appointed by the executive branch or have a deep loyalty to it.
if you have ever had a job you should understand how such things work.
buttkeesers are butt keesers and favors are favors and they dont just up and quit when someone isnt in the private sector.
i mean come on.
even if there isnt any "sway" happening then the DOD needs to get its head out of its rear and understand that there is a severe perception of favoritism happening here.
there is also a large group of persons who think that guantanamo is bunk.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
All kidding aside, I've been trying to figure it out for 4 years now. No one can provide me with a reasonable explanation either. I do get a lot of "OH MY GOD! Cheney<---->Haliburton! OH MY GOD, DON'T YOU GET IT? But no substantive expalnations.
A report by the Congressional Research Service undermines Vice President Dick Cheney's denial of a continuing relationship with Halliburton Co., the energy company he once led, Sen. Frank Lautenberg said Thursday.
The report says a public official's unexercised stock options and deferred salary fall within the definition of "retained ties" to his former company.
Without naming Cheney or Halliburton, the service reported that unexercised stock options and deferred salary "are among those benefits described by the Office of Government Ethics as 'retained ties' or 'linkages' to one's former employer.
According to The Post, while Cheney was defense secretary the Pentagon chose Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root to study the cost effectiveness of outsourcing some military operations to private contractors. Based on the results of the study, the Pentagon hired Brown & Root to implement an outsourcing plan. Cheney became Halliburton CEO in 1995.
433,000 unexercised options of stock sounds like a good way to me to make money. Especially once you have a hand in boosting the company's profits through the roof.
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When it comes to the kind of work that Haliburton and their subsidiaries like KBR do for the DoD and the military, having many friends who serve and depend on the services provided by those companies, I'm NOT inclined to see those people even POSSIBLY suffer due to a PERCEPTION.
We ask a lot of our military personnel, if Haliburton and its subsidiaries do a decent job and satisfy their needs and a lot of their wants, then unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Haliburton is really ripping everyone off, then dealing with Haliburton and the PERCEPTION of a conflict of interest isn't a big deal. There's a BIG difference between PERCEPTION and the FACTS those people deal with on the ground in service to the country.
I find the FACTS to be more important than the PERCEPTION.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
When it comes to the kind of work that Haliburton and their subsidiaries like KBR do for the DoD and the military, having many friends who serve and depend on the services provided by those companies, I'm NOT inclined to see those people even POSSIBLY suffer due to a PERCEPTION.
We ask a lot of our military personnel, if Haliburton and its subsidiaries do a decent job and satisfy their needs and a lot of their wants, then unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Haliburton is really ripping everyone off, then dealing with Haliburton and the PERCEPTION of a conflict of interest isn't a big deal. There's a BIG difference between PERCEPTION and the FACTS those people deal with on the ground in service to the country.
I find the FACTS to be more important than the PERCEPTION.
Here are some facts for you then.
1)Charging US $1.70/gallon for gas in the middle east.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100202,00.html
Two Democratic lawmakers say Vice President Dick Cheney's (search) former company, Halliburton (search), is gouging U.S. taxpayers while importing gasoline into Iraq. The Houston-based company contends it is paying the best price possible.
Reps. Henry Waxman (search) of California and John Dingell (search) of Michigan complained to the Bush administration that Halliburton's KBR subsidiary is billing the Army between $1.62 and $1.70 per gallon, while the average price for Middle East gasoline is 71 cents.
They also complained that Iraqis are charged between 4 cents and 15 cents at the pump for the imported gasoline.
2)Operating inside of Countries known to have US sanctions against them.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7119752/
Yet, in January, Halliburton won a contract to drill at a huge Iranian gas field called Pars, which an Iranian government spokesman said "served the interests" of Iran.
"I am baffled that any American company would want to have employees operating in Iran," says Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine. "I would think they'd be ashamed."
Still, Halliburton stands out because its operations in Iran are now under a federal criminal investigation. Government sources say the focus is on whether the company set out to illegally evade the sanctions imposed ten years ago.
3)And finally bribery...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4163810/
The Justice Department has opened up an inquiry into whether Halliburton Co. was involved in the payment of $180 million in possible kickbacks to obtain contracts to build a natural gas plant in Nigeria during a period in the late 1990’s when Vice President Dick Cheney was chairman of the company, Newsweek has learned.
These are Facts, and they cause suspicion as to why a company that screws over its clients repeatedly, keeps on winning bids.
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yep. there it is.
:aok
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Originally posted by Raider179
A report by the Congressional Research Service undermines Vice President Dick Cheney's denial of a continuing relationship with Halliburton Co., the energy company he once led, Sen. Frank Lautenberg said Thursday.
The report says a public official's unexercised stock options and deferred salary fall within the definition of "retained ties" to his former company.
Without naming Cheney or Halliburton, the service reported that unexercised stock options and deferred salary "are among those benefits described by the Office of Government Ethics as 'retained ties' or 'linkages' to one's former employer.
According to The Post, while Cheney was defense secretary the Pentagon chose Halliburton subsidiary Brown & Root to study the cost effectiveness of outsourcing some military operations to private contractors. Based on the results of the study, the Pentagon hired Brown & Root to implement an outsourcing plan. Cheney became Halliburton CEO in 1995.
433,000 unexercised options of stock sounds like a good way to me to make money. Especially once you have a hand in boosting the company's profits through the roof.
Good find on the unexercised stock options and deferred salary, if it is not covered in his required transfer to a blind trust, then yes, he is wrong for not doing so. He SHOULD be called on it, and I'll be glad to see him get called on it.
However, the fact remains that Haliburton and Kellog Brown and Root have been getting the contracts for decades, and got them regardless of whether or not Cheney or any Republican was in office. Haliburton is not getting any contracts in any greater numbers than it was before Cheney became VP.
IF people are going to try to say that the war in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and the war on terrorism in general is being fought just to make Haliburton money, I think that is a stretch that just doesn't reach.
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Originally posted by lazs2
now that was an interesting post...
It is bad to intimidate that people are homosexual unless you do it? and..
Would you say that more gay people were liberal or conservative?
lazs
Equal. Not that it matters but since you asked:
right now it seems the conserv gays have had more access to the White House:) GANNON
:lol
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
However, the fact remains that Haliburton and Kellog Brown and Root have been getting the contracts for decades, and got them regardless of whether or not Cheney or any Republican was in office. Haliburton is not getting any contracts in any greater numbers than it was before Cheney became VP.
IF people are going to try to say that the war in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and the war on terrorism in general is being fought just to make Haliburton money, I think that is a stretch that just doesn't reach.
1)I havent seen anyone say the war is "just being fought to make haliburton money"(at least on this board/thread). Key word here being "just" meaning only.
Oh and it shows Cheney profit's if Haliburton's profits increase. That is a direct financial link between the two.
What he will do with those profits remains unknown. (I have seen it said he will donate such and such amount to charity, but thought it sounded funny the way it was worded so I discounted it as mere media ploy, perhaps we can find more info on it, but who will know until he sells his shares and the longer he waits the less likely anyone is to remember.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Here are some facts for you then.
1)Charging US $1.70/gallon for gas in the middle east.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100202,00.html
Two Democratic lawmakers say Vice President Dick Cheney's (search) former company, Halliburton (search), is gouging U.S. taxpayers while importing gasoline into Iraq. The Houston-based company contends it is paying the best price possible.
Reps. Henry Waxman (search) of California and John Dingell (search) of Michigan complained to the Bush administration that Halliburton's KBR subsidiary is billing the Army between $1.62 and $1.70 per gallon, while the average price for Middle East gasoline is 71 cents.
They also complained that Iraqis are charged between 4 cents and 15 cents at the pump for the imported gasoline.
2)Operating inside of Countries known to have US sanctions against them.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7119752/
Yet, in January, Halliburton won a contract to drill at a huge Iranian gas field called Pars, which an Iranian government spokesman said "served the interests" of Iran.
"I am baffled that any American company would want to have employees operating in Iran," says Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine. "I would think they'd be ashamed."
Still, Halliburton stands out because its operations in Iran are now under a federal criminal investigation. Government sources say the focus is on whether the company set out to illegally evade the sanctions imposed ten years ago.
3)And finally bribery...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4163810/
The Justice Department has opened up an inquiry into whether Halliburton Co. was involved in the payment of $180 million in possible kickbacks to obtain contracts to build a natural gas plant in Nigeria during a period in the late 1990’s when Vice President Dick Cheney was chairman of the company, Newsweek has learned.
These are Facts, and they cause suspicion as to why a company that screws over its clients repeatedly, keeps on winning bids.
Interesting quotes you LEFT OUT of your posts.
There is no evidence that Cheney was aware of the payments in question and an aide said today the vice president has not been contacted about the probe.
A Justice Department official confirmed to NEWSWEEK today that prosecutors have been seeking information from Halliburton related to the Nigerian contract and that the company was cooperating. But the official said the company’s reference to being asked for “a report” by Justice was “not accurate.” Rather than a report, Justice has sought documents from the company—and Halliburton has been turning them over, the official said. Another Justice official described the inquiry as a review of documents supplied by Halliburton and said it was still in its early stages.
By the way, the above inquiry was going on while Ashcroft was still the AG, AND no one has been proven to have done anything wrong yet. Innocent until proven guilty.
Halliburton says the operation — videotaped by NBC News — is entirely legal. It's run by a subsidiary called "Halliburton Products and Services Limited," based outside the U.S. In fact, the law allows foreign subsidiaries of U.S. corporations to do business in Iran under strict conditions.
Other U.S. oil services companies, like Weatherford and Baker Hughes, also are in Iran. And foreign subsidiaries of NBC's parent company, General Electric, have sold equipment to Iran, though the company says it will make no more sales. (MSNBC is a Microsoft-NBC joint venture.)
Halliburton says it is unfairly targeted because of politics, but recently announced it is pulling out of Iran because the business environment "is not conducive to our overall strategies and objectives."
So, while they aren't doing anything different than other companies, they too are going to get out. They are a for profit corporation, like any other for profit corporation. Is it good that they are there? No. Should they be there? No. Is the fact that the company that reported this was also doing business there NEWS? No! Does that make it right? No. But the only reason Halliburton is NEWS is because it MIGHT make the current administration look bad. The best they can offer is that the subsidiary won't answer questions. There's a big surprise. Considering the continual investigations, an official at a subsidiary doesn't want to answer questions. Sounds like the subsidiary is practicing CYA.
"Although Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world, the U.S. taxpayer is, in effect, subsidizing over 90 percent of the cost of gasoline sold in Iraq," the lawmakers said in the latest Democratic attacks against the Houston company that received a no-bid contract.
The charges cover the purchase and transportation of the petroleum from Kuwait and other countries.
A little side note on this. Published reports show that both Kuwait and Qatar charged Halliburton prices for the products that were higher than the average local prices, because Halliburton was not an average local consumer. At least one report shows that Halliburton didn't charge an excessive markup on petroleum products purchased from Kuwait and Qatar and sold to the military.
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which chose Halliburton, has received bids for a replacement contract that could be awarded this month.
Corps spokesman Robert Faletti said he could not confirm the figures that Waxman and Dingell cited in a letter to Joshua Bolten, director of the Office of Management and Budget.
He said, however, that the contract is being audited by Congress and the Army.
And finally:
In a further move against Halliburton, Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., announced Wednesday he would propose barring the government from awarding Iraq reconstruction contracts to companies that maintain close financial ties to the president, vice president or members of the president's Cabinet.
Lautenberg wants the measure added to an $87 billion reconstruction bill for Iraq and Afghanistan.
Cheney receives deferred payments from Halliburton and also has stock options.
Cheney's office has said the vice president had no role in the contract and that the deferred payments were for his services while he headed the company. He has said he would give the proceeds to charity should he profit from the exercise of stock options.
A special law to apply ONLY to companies that MIGHT have ties to the current administration, added to another piece of legislation. It conveniently enough is not a law that would apply to ANYONE, like other government officials, but ONLY to the CURRENT ADMINSTRATION, and ONLY to Iraq rebuilding.:rolleyes:
Oh, and 90% of what you are quoting from is OLD news, some from at least 2-3 years ago. Evidently, nothing has come of it in 2-3 years, but it is still news, still a scandal, and still fodder for a mudslinging contest.
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You're just no fun, Virgil.
Don't you get it? It's TEH BOOSH.
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Originally posted by JB88
darling, in case ...88
you never call me "darling".:(
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Heck,
you don't have to call me darling, darling; you never even call me by my name.
Btw, I was drunk the night my mom got out of prison....
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Again, after looking around to see what everyone was complaining about, and after talking to dozens of friends who have been in the military for decades, nothing is different now that Cheney is Vice President than it was when any other adminisatration was in office.
Cheney didn't invent the no bid government contract (not EXACTLY what you're saying, but more to the point, EXACTLY what people a implying or saying), that is utter nonsense. It does not apply to Haliburton any more than it does anyone else that I've heard of, again after asking people who have been there for decades.
I'm STILL asking, what is the difference between Haliburton getting those contracts NOW and say TWELVE years ago? They got them when Cheney was neither SecDef nor VP, so where is the big scandal?
Im with you Sav.
Halli is the company for the job and has been for many administrations.
If there are any conflicts then they should be investigated and proper action taken.
But I do understand that perception of the issue is important.
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lol nice "Facts".
If anything, they prove opposite what was intended, due to the FACT nothing has come of them.
So far, we have been shown allusions, and hyperbole.
Still waiting for actual "proof" as opposed to slander and conjecture. Unless, that is, if y'all are ok with lynching people w/o having to fulfil your burden of proof. If that's the case, keep it up, you're doing a great job.
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actually, as much as I hate to hijack this thread, here are some interesting FACTS about Bill Clinton that I found fascinating.
ADMINISTRATION RECORDS SET
- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
CRIME STATS
- Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47
- Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency: 33
- Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61
- Number of imprisonments: 14
- Number of congressional witnesses who have pled the 5th Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 124
where were you guys when clinton was the pres? I see alot of ya' comin' down hard on Cheny, yet turning a blind eye to the biggest crook to have ever held the office of the president.
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the stats pretty much speak to the fact that people were not silent during his administration lute.
dont they?
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Originally posted by WMLute
lol nice "Facts".
If anything, they prove opposite what was intended, due to the FACT nothing has come of them.
So far, we have been shown allusions, and hyperbole.
Still waiting for actual "proof" as opposed to slander and conjecture. Unless, that is, if y'all are ok with lynching people w/o having to fulfil your burden of proof. If that's the case, keep it up, you're doing a great job.
Nothing has come of them?
http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13266
Hmmm Nigeria for example?
US oil services group Halliburton will pay 7.5 million dollars to settle charges of misleading accounting when Vice President Dick Cheney was in charge, regulators said. Cheney, who is not accused of any wrongdoing, gave sworn testimony to the Securities and Exchange Commission and "cooperated willingly and fully" in the investigation, the SEC said in a statement. The company struck a deal to pay 7.5 million dollars while former Halliburton financial controller Robert Muchmore agreed to pay 50,000 dollars, it said.
All I am saying is Halliburton profits off illegal activities. And Cheney has 433,000 shares of stock. That pretty much sums it up.
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Originally posted by Toad
You're just no fun, Virgil.
Don't you get it? It's TEH BOOSH.
I get it, I get it. But can't we keep playing?
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Originally posted by WMLute
Still waiting for actual "proof" as opposed to slander and conjecture. Unless, that is, if y'all are ok with lynching people w/o having to fulfil your burden of proof. If that's the case, keep it up, you're doing a great job.
This is the O'Club. some folks don't need no steeeeenking facts. They get in the way of the conjecture, supposition and plain fantasy.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Actually, I think it is you that is a bit confused as to what a "conflict of interest" is.
It's when you want to do your girlfriend's sister
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Originally posted by Raider179
Nothing has come of them?
http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=51&num=13266
Hmmm Nigeria for example?
US oil services group Halliburton will pay 7.5 million dollars to settle charges of misleading accounting when Vice President Dick Cheney was in charge, regulators said. Cheney, who is not accused of any wrongdoing, gave sworn testimony to the Securities and Exchange Commission and "cooperated willingly and fully" in the investigation, the SEC said in a statement. The company struck a deal to pay 7.5 million dollars while former Halliburton financial controller Robert Muchmore agreed to pay 50,000 dollars, it said.
All I am saying is Halliburton profits off illegal activities. And Cheney has 433,000 shares of stock. That pretty much sums it up.
Interesting. Did you read the article? Haliburton changed their accounting methods in 1988/89 ish, and the SEC felt mislead because they/nor Haliburton's investors were told of the accounting change. The article states that the new accounting method was in line with "generally accepted accounting principles". The issue was with disclosure of the change over.
So how again, does their failure to disclose to the SEC a change in their accounting practices, have anything to do with Hailiburton profiting off illegal activities? WHAT illegal activities to whit are you referring to? An accounting change has exactly what to do with what you are trying to pin on Cheney??
I mean geeeez...don't you guys even read the articles or just he headlines and the first paragraph.
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Oops sorry forgot this part...
4 December, 2004
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4067549.stm
Halliburton's Nigerian operations were also the focus of Swiss prosecutors' attention on Friday.
Geneva magistrate Daniel Dumartheray confirmed he had ordered the freezing of bank accounts at the request of a French judge investigating allegations of bribery by Halliburton contractors in Nigeria in the 1990s.
Swiss newspapers reported the accounts contained $100m. The magistrate declined to comment on the sums involved or the owners of the accounts.
Lets not forget the gas overcharge...
Thursday, 17 March, 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4359765.stm
A former employee of a Halliburton subsidiary has been indicted on charges of defrauding the US military of more than $3.5m for fuel in Iraq.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Oops sorry forgot this part...
4 December, 2004
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4067549.stm
Halliburton's Nigerian operations were also the focus of Swiss prosecutors' attention on Friday.
Geneva magistrate Daniel Dumartheray confirmed he had ordered the freezing of bank accounts at the request of a French judge investigating allegations of bribery by Halliburton contractors in Nigeria in the 1990s.
Swiss newspapers reported the accounts contained $100m. The magistrate declined to comment on the sums involved or the owners of the accounts.
Lets not forget the gas overcharge...
Thursday, 17 March, 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4359765.stm
A former employee of a Halliburton subsidiary has been indicted on charges of defrauding the US military of more than $3.5m for fuel in Iraq.
You REALLY don't read this things that you post do you?
FROM your article
Geneva magistrate Daniel Dumartheray confirmed he had ordered the freezing of bank accounts at the request of a French judge investigating allegations of bribery by Halliburton contractors in Nigeria in the 1990s.
Ok, so an employee of Haliburton is accused of Bribery. If one would continue reading, you would see that
Swiss newspapers reported the accounts contained $100m. The magistrate declined to comment on the sums involved or the owners of the accounts.
Halliburton has said it has ended links with the subjects of the investigation.
Now exactly how is a corrupt employee Cheney's fault? And WHAT does that have to do with anything, and/or the point you are making about Cheney's conflict of interest? The company I used to work for arrested a guy for selling customers screen names to spam companies. Is that somehow the CEO of AOL Time Warner’s fault? What about Steve Case the EX CEO of AOL Time Warner? Show me how it's HIS fault some guy in a company he USED to run did something fraudulent.
Let's see, reading the article on the second link about gas fraud, hmmm...ok, let's see, corrupt employee, hmmm..... looks like someone lined his or her pockets a bit, ok, but HOW DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHENEY?
I mean seriously, ya' really need to think it all through before you post stuff. I don't have the slightest idea HOW you can tie in an employee from a former company he USED To run, to Cheney and conflicts of interest.
Are you somehow surprised that people are corrupt in business? Is this a news flash for ya' or something? JUST learning about that whole "white collar crime" thing are we?
I'll tell you what it is; it's that first sentence in both those articles that is throwing you.
Let me clue you in on something (lean in),
closer...
(whispers) just because both articles open with "Halliburton, once run by US Vice President Dick Cheney" does NOT mean that either article has anything to do what so ever with Dick Cheney. (OMFG) no way! But, but Lute, it SAYS he used to run that company once upon a time, so there HAS to be a connection to the current administration!! There just HAS to!!
(sigh)
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Haliber. and it's subs and therefore it's employees are still in court, I'll take Jeezy's answer, and wait for the result of the pending cases.
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Raider have you ever served in the military? I don't ask this question in any way shape or form to assault your patriotism or love for country.
I ask because If you were in the military you would know that the military paying more for gas and basic auto parts and tools and food is the rule and not the exception.
in EACH OF THOSE ARTICLES NOTHING INDICATES CHENY DID ANYTHING WRONG.
If the DOD got wrongfull influence from the executive branch the IG would investigate and prosicute for wrong doings.
Haliburton and B&R have done great things for the US military abroad. Yes they've screwed up just like any corporation with ALOT of subsidiaries.
ALOT of GIs in Iraq loved it when Haliburton ran the "services" section of their forward bases. Liberals made a stink and alot of those service postions went away or got recontracted. After that the food and services on base sucked. I have heard this from a bunch of GIs that were there that saw it with their own eyes.
Haliburon and B&R have worked with the military since before Bush, clinton, and bush. This is grasping
The irony here is you have all these liberals and organizations calling Gitmo a "gulag" even though they get fed better then most GIs serving in Iraq right now. Yet when conditions are attempted to be improved apon the liberals scream again
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Originally posted by WMLute
You REALLY don't read this things that you post do you?
FROM your article
Ok, so an employee of Haliburton is accused of Bribery. If one would continue reading, you would see that
Now exactly how is a corrupt employee Cheney's fault? And WHAT does that have to do with anything, and/or the point you are making about Cheney's conflict of interest? The company I used to work for arrested a guy for selling customers screen names to spam companies. Is that somehow the CEO of AOL Time Warner’s fault? What about Steve Case the EX CEO of AOL Time Warner? Show me how it's HIS fault some guy in a company he USED to run did something fraudulent.
Let's see, reading the article on the second link about gas fraud, hmmm...ok, let's see, corrupt employee, hmmm..... looks like someone lined his or her pockets a bit, ok, but HOW DOES THAT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHENEY?
I mean seriously, ya' really need to think it all through before you post stuff. I don't have the slightest idea HOW you can tie in an employee from a former company he USED To run, to Cheney and conflicts of interest.
Are you somehow surprised that people are corrupt in business? Is this a news flash for ya' or something? JUST learning about that whole "white collar crime" thing are we?
I'll tell you what it is; it's that first sentence in both those articles that is throwing you.
Let me clue you in on something (lean in),
closer...
(whispers) just because both articles open with "Halliburton, once run by US Vice President Dick Cheney" does NOT mean that either article has anything to do what so ever with Dick Cheney. (OMFG) no way! But, but Lute, it SAYS he used to run that company once upon a time, so there HAS to be a connection to the current administration!! There just HAS to!!
(sigh)
Maybe you just don't read my posts. I said Halliburton profits off illegal acivity, which was just shown. (Nigeria, and overcharging. I didnt say it was cheney's fault. I said...
"All I am saying is Halliburton profits off illegal activities. And Cheney has 433,000 shares of stock. That pretty much sums it up.
You are the one that wants to tie a link between illegal activity and Cheney. Not me. I am just pointing out that Halliburton is corrupted and Cheney makes a profit off of them through his stock options.
So find the quote where I said Cheney was involved in illegal activity during his time at Haliburton and get back to me...
Ohhh I see now. You were already in a cheney = illegal with Sandman before I came along into this thread. Someone asked why do people suspect Cheney and I posted why. You'll notice I didnt say he did anything illegal. Improper maybe but illegal not that has been found.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Raider have you ever served in the military? I don't ask this question in any way shape or form to assault your patriotism or love for country.
in EACH OF THOSE ARTICLES NOTHING INDICATES CHENY DID ANYTHING WRONG.
The irony here is you have all these liberals and organizations calling Gitmo a "gulag" even though they get fed better then most GIs serving in Iraq right now. Yet when conditions are attempted to be improved apon the liberals scream again
1) No
2) See my above post to Lute. I never said Cheney did anything illegal. Halliburton as a company on the other hand are all over the place.
3) I already said the new GITMO price tag is way too high and that a tent city should be fine for them.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Maybe you just don't read my posts. I said Halliburton profits off illegal acivity, which was just shown. (Nigeria, and overcharging. I didnt say it was cheney's fault. I said...
"All I am saying is Halliburton profits off illegal activities. And Cheney has 433,000 shares of stock. That pretty much sums it up.
You are the one that wants to tie a link between illegal activity and Cheney. Not me. I am just pointing out that Halliburton is corrupted and Cheney makes a profit off of them through his stock options.
So find the quote where I said Cheney was involved in illegal activity during his time at Haliburton and get back to me...
The topic at hand was (IS) how it's a conflict of interest for Haliburton to get awarded contracts because Cheney used to be in charge of it. Granted, you have nothing to show that there is anything factual to that statement and your post prove that. You are unable to produce anything having to do with Cheney being involved with these bids. Bids I might add, Halliburton would get no matter who is in charge. The V.P just doesn't have a single thing to do with who gets these govt. contracts.
Your statement alludes to an opinion that you seem unwilling to just come out and say. So I will ask this... Cheney has 433,000 shares of stock, that sum's WHAT up? Please explain just what you are getting at. Or, just come out and say it if you think it's true that his stock ownership shows a conflict of interest. Show some intestinal fortitude. Quit HINTING at it, just flat out say it. We all (well, not ALL of us I guess, many here that don't need things like facts to start slinging out posts) know your wrong, and sure, we might giggle and point, but hey, if that's your opinion, you don't have to back it up. You can believe what ever you want. It doesn't HAVE to be based on things like reality, or truth, or any some such thing.
You can think it.
It's ok.
You're wrong, but that's ok.
(p.s. in one of the above articles, it states that any profits from Cheney's stock from the time he became VP are being donated to charity. I guess you have an issue with charitable donations as well? We better investigate and make sure the Red Cross or Jerry's Kid's do not get any Federal Funding, after all, Cheney IS donating his Haliburton stock profits to them, so there HAS to be something corrupt going on, there just HAS TO!!)
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Originally posted by Raider179
1) No
2) See my above post to Lute. I never said Cheney did anything illegal. Halliburton as a company on the other hand are all over the place.
3) I already said the new GITMO price tag is way too high and that a tent city should be fine for them.
gotcha,
but on no.3 We can't even feed these prisoners MREs because that's considered inhumane. even though that's what GIs in Iraq are fighting in tent city would draw the wrath of the bleeding heart organizations around the world big time.
Also,
You can't isolate a prisoner from the rest in tent city. just my $.02
in many ways I think we are treating these guys WAY too good. now they are getting a new "crib" to boot. They allready have it better than most US prisoners yet it is a "gulag"
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Originally posted by WMLute
The topic at hand was (IS) how it's a conflict of interest for Haliburton to get awarded contracts because Cheney used to be in charge of it. Granted, you have nothing to show that there is anything factual to that statement and your post prove that. You are unable to produce anything having to do with Cheney being involved with these bids. Bids I might add, Halliburton would get no matter who is in charge. The V.P just doesn't have a single thing to do with who gets these govt. contracts.
Your statement alludes to an opinion that you seem unwilling to just come out and say. So I will ask this... Cheney has 433,000 shares of stock, that sum's WHAT up? Please explain just what you are getting at. Or, just come out and say it if you think it's true that his stock ownership shows a conflict of interest. Show some intestinal fortitude. Quit HINTING at it, just flat out say it. We all (well, not ALL of us I guess, many here that don't need things like facts to start slinging out posts) know your wrong, and sure, we might giggle and point, but hey, if that's your opinion, you don't have to back it up. You can believe what ever you want. It doesn't HAVE to be based on things like reality, or truth, or any some such thing.
You can think it.
It's ok.
You're wrong, but that's ok.
(p.s. in one of the above articles, it states that any profits from Cheney's stock from the time he became VP are being donated to charity. I guess you have an issue with charitable donations as well? We better investigate and make sure the Red Cross or Jerry's Kid's do not get any Federal Funding, after all, Cheney IS donating his Haliburton stock profits to them, so there HAS to be something corrupt going on, there just HAS TO!!)
You asked this..."All kidding aside, I've been trying to figure it out for 4 years now. No one can provide me with a reasonable explanation either. I do get a lot of "OH MY GOD! Cheney<---->Haliburton! OH MY GOD, DON'T YOU GET IT? But no substantive expalnations."
All I did was answer it. I gave you the basis of why it looks shady. The "reasonable explanation" you asked for. Do I think Cheney is giving away contracts to Haliburton that other companies should be getting? I Think its possible, but very unlikely he has any way to influence those decisions. Being in Iraq and Afghanistan is good for the old Halliburton Coffers. Just being at war is enough to boost the old coffers. Be nice if he does donate that stock away to charity.
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Halliburton already admitted overbilling in Iraq. They were "estimating" and have had to refund the overages.
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Originally posted by JB88
many many many people either work for the executive branch or are appointed by the executive branch or have a deep loyalty to it.
Ummmm... nobody appointed by the executive branch controls the purse strings. These are elected officials. Senators and congressmen. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?
Originally posted by JB88
even if there isnt any "sway" happening then the DOD needs to get its head out of its rear and understand that there is a severe perception of favoritism happening here.
I'm sure they don't have any idea this is going on. They are completely blind to it. Either that or they are picking the best company for the job.Originally posted by RPM
Halliburton already admitted overbilling in Iraq. They were "estimating" and have had to refund the overages.
Wow... this is how that was. You see, I thought they bid a contract based on rates per function and then afterwards someone came in and inspected what was done and adjusted the contract billing. Some would even see this as standard practice if they had ever worked in an environment with a 2nd and 3rd party billing system. I can see you are not one of those folks.
And... what does that have to do with Cheney again?
There's alot of smoke being thrown out there right now... all of it to hide the basic fact that nothing in regards to halliburton has changed since chaney has been in office. Nobody has even come close to addressing that basic point. Instead, we get stories about how corrupt halliburton is and how someone bribed someone in Africa. Of course... none of it's really relevant to the discussion at hand, but it makes people look informed when they're starting to be uncovered as clueless.
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mini d.
what do you believe?
one sentence.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
in many ways I think we are treating these guys WAY too good. now they are getting a new "crib" to boot. They allready have it better than most US prisoners yet it is a "gulag"
I read about that sherif in the desert prison, where's that, Arizona? With that prison where they wear stripes and get no tv ,etc. send 'em there, it's the desert anyway, should remind them of home.
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Originally posted by airbumba
I read about that sherif in the desert prison, where's that, Arizona? With that prison where they wear stripes and get no tv ,etc. send 'em there, it's the desert anyway, should remind them of home.
yes and as soon as they hit US soil the ACLU files a motion in a liberal federal court to have them released imediatly.
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Originally posted by Raider179
3) I already said the new GITMO price tag is way too high and that a tent city should be fine for them.
Raider, I'm in agreement with you regarding quartering the bad guys in Gitmo.
I see no reason why they should be living better than the "road warriors" that spent their night in the Holiday Inn Express.
However, give me an honest reply as to what you think the world reaction would be if we quartered them as Sheriff Joe Arpaio does in his Maricopa County tent city?
The prisoners at Gitmo already live in far better surroundings with far better food than the Maricopa County prisoners and look at how Amnesty is blasting us for that treatment.
So what do you think would be the world reaction?
Again, I agree with you that tents shoud be enough, but my concern is we paint ourselves as ever more EvIl AmReEkAns if we do that.
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Originally posted by Toad
Raider, I'm in agreement with you regarding quartering the bad guys in Gitmo.
I see no reason why they should be living better than the "road warriors" that spent their night in the Holiday Inn Express.
However, give me an honest reply as to what you think the world reaction would be if we quartered them as Sheriff Joe Arpaio does in his Maricopa County tent city?
The prisoners at Gitmo already live in far better surroundings with far better food than the Maricopa County prisoners and look at how Amnesty is blasting us for that treatment.
So what do you think would be the world reaction?
Again, I agree with you that tents shoud be enough, but my concern is we paint ourselves as ever more EvIl AmReEkAns if we do that.
I dont see how it could make us look any worse than we do by not having trials. We already are the evil americans according to a large part of the world. I don't think there is a whole lot bush can do to make it any worse. All you are gonna hear is "See told you", after all what are they gonna do Sanction us? lol
Now the real reason why I think they are building them nice quarters. I think Interregators have realized that rough treatment and living conditions do not really pan out to getting good intelligence out of the combatants. WW2/Vietnam/Korea POW treatment seems to show that the worse you treat combatants/prisoners the less actual intelligence you really get.
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We differ then. I think putting them in Maricopa County tent jails would be a press heyday for another two months and I don't think that would help at all.
OTOH, when the "Homeboys" see their buds living in the Holiday Inn Express with A/C, clean water, clean sheets, laundry service and three squares a day.... they may decide to get caught on purpose. ;)
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FWIW Sheriff Arpaio has told the inmates and future inmates of the Maricopa County jail that if they don't like it there they can go get arrested in some other jurisdiction. :D
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Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW Sheriff Arpaio has told the inmates and future inmates of the Maricopa County jail that if they don't like it there they can go get arrested in some other jurisdiction. :D
LMAO :rofl
I love that attitude.
Not just that but he also makes them wear pink boxer shorts as well.
FWIW,
I think both raider and toad have good points. Make nice with somone and they might actually open up to you. treat somone like a dog long enough they are going to act like a dog and do what ever you tell it. Both might work.
This whole "world opinion" is a sham. If we gave them trials (wich they don't rate) they would be called a sham and denounced as biased.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Cheney is the vice president and former CEO of Haliburton. Not sure of the amount, but estimates of his stock in Haliburtion exceeds $60 Million.
Keep in mind... This Haliburton no-bid nonsense started when he was SECDEF.
Is he doing anything illegal? Hard to say, but it smells funny.
the truth is no other company is bidding on theSand do you know what a "no-bid contract" is?
It means that one company bids on a contract and no other company places a bid.
Biders must meet several crietera.
1. They must have the ability to do the work and meet all the required scopes for the job.
2. They must have proven that they have done the same type of work in the past.
3. They may be required to post a bond in the event they fail to compleate the work.
4. They must be large enough to survive if they bid to low for the work.
The populer misconception is that H just gets the work becouse the goverment is playing faverits. job becouse they can't meet the requirments.
We also award no bid work on the construction of our submarines, guess why, only one company can meet the requirments.
There are many no bid contracts awarded due to the very specilized nature of our goverments requirments.
No other company is bidding on the work therefor a “no-bid” contract is awarded, boring and not a bit sinister, but that doesn’t make the anti NeoCons happy to report, so they don’t.
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/\
+
+
+
There you go injecting common sense into a subject that doesnt need any to be a news story.:rolleyes:
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so...if cheney is vice president and he knows what is going to happen so he invests his money according to that...what does that mean?
legally that is.
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Originally posted by JB88
so...if cheney is vice president and he knows what is going to happen so he invests his money according to that...what does that mean?
legally that is.
That didn't, nor would ever happen.
How about if cheney suddenly found a cure for cancer, and sprouted wings and sprinkled his magical cancer curing pixie dust all across the world, thus curing humanity of cancer.
What if?
What if we stuck to the topic at hand and produced things that backed up the ridiculous accusation that Cheney has some control over govt. contract bids.
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Originally posted by JB88
so...if cheney is vice president and he knows what is going to happen so he invests his money according to that...what does that mean? legally that is.
According to the Center for public Integrity,
In 2004, Cheney had income of between 15k and 50k from Halliburton as deferred salary
That same year, he had investment income from 4 different Vanguard group mutual fund investments of between 100,000 and 1,000,000 each.
Another 7 mutual fund investments each made between 15k and 50k.
Another five investments made between 5k and 15k each.
Another 7 investments made at least $250.
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ok.
now how about favors. how does that figure in?
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According to the Center for Public Integrity, he ain't makin' money on 'em.
Just because the government bought from Ford in the 60's, does that make Robert McNamara corrupt?
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nope.
but what i am reffering to in my question is slushola money.
kickbacks and favors.
im talkin about ka-ching.
war profiteers and the like.
campaign donators and thier ilk.
money changers in the temples.
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show me some evidence.
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or alternatively you might show me the contrary...that public opinion is not starting to sour at these and other revelations.
show me how haliburton is the only company qualified to build prisons. (in a society which is becoming increasingly adept at building them)
show me how companies arent getting rich on our tax money and at the expense of american's lives.
we have been hearing things about haliburtons activities for years and i would at least think that we might hope for better oversite.
its odd to me that the same corporation that is managing the iraq debacle just happens to be operating in iran as well.
i am not a detail person such as you seem to be...a great thing btw...so youll have to forgive me for not wanting to forage through facts and figures that others are consistantly propping forth with much sense of accomplishment.
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I'm sorry, I did not know that it was my burden to prove your allegations to be unfounded.
I figured you had to come up with some basis for your theory.
I guess I didn't know the rules.
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Originally posted by JB88
so...if cheney is vice president and he knows what is going to happen so he invests his money according to that...what does that mean?
legally that is.
That has nothing to do with this situation... does it? Chaney did not invest in halliburton after becoming VP.
I cannot believe how much irrelevant crap is being thrown up right now. Once again... get back to the very basics here: Does Chaney have any say on what contracts halliburton does or doesn't get? Research just a bit... take the time to figure out just how contracts are awarded... you'll figure that one out. Or you could just keep the head burried in the sand and assume contracts are awarded by the VP and he's turning everyone else away to make a buck.
Hehehe... even going to the "prove me wrong" line when you're completely incapable of providing a supporting argument for the accusations.
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I think he is saying that if you say it real fast....and without explaining it or looking into it... that it can be made to appear bad for Chenny and...
That's good enough for him.
One of those "good" soundbites.
lazs
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So far I haven't seen any "revalations" just an allegation with no supporting evidence. Smoke and mirrors. Create the impression of wrong doing with no basis for it and let the innuendo carry the situation to force the victim to defend alegations without substance. The mere defense is used as "proof" there MUST be something wrong or the victim wouldn't have to defend themself. Says quite a bit about the vapidity of the one raising the "issue" rather than the "issue" having any validity.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I'm sorry, I did not know that it was my burden to prove your allegations to be unfounded.
I figured you had to come up with some basis for your theory.
I guess I didn't know the rules.
i have not put forth a theory. i am only asking questions holden.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think he is saying that if you say it real fast....and without explaining it or looking into it... that it can be made to appear bad for Chenny and...
That's good enough for him.
One of those "good" soundbites.
lazs
and an exceptional dismissal to boot!
wow. we sure is teh smart.
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never claimed to be smart.. It has been pointed out tho that without saying that chenney has no power to award contracts...
it is just a soundbite.. It is an anti chenney soundbite so... if it appeals to you then one could easily fall prey to thinking that you were repeating only the soundbite part out of a dishonest motive.
lazs
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if that is true lasz, then you are correct, it is bad brahmen.
but it doesnt feel that way. these are legitimate questions.
like yourself, i feel that a little scrutiny and little cynicism is a healthy thing.
for you republicans out there, heres the thing. ya'll went bonks over clinton. yes there is some of that here too.
but thats not what it is for me.
what it is to me is a part of a fundemental shift that points squarely at midevilism and a basic erosion of our constitutional guarantees. not the details...but the spirit...the place where we hum from as a country.
you may say...that this is dramatic. yes. it is. but it isnt more silly than saying that bill clinton was an honest politician or the poor arent getting poorer and the people are getting laid off and the corporation has wed itself too deeply in our government infrastructure. or is it not deep enough?
one way or the other. i think that the people are beginning to signal a strong belief that we are spinning our wheels in this country...becoming mired in an arguement and failing to utilize our brilliance and our willpower to do something about it. to make it better.
the government is a servant of the people not a seperate entity. an extension.
history shows us that we cant expect to see certain cycles in government. knowing this, we can see signs and follow them. that is not to say that it is an absolute. certainly not. but it is a danger. as are many things.
i love this country and i have always trusted it and it has trusted me. i am relying upon that country to keep that bond. that trust.
both the dems and the reps are dishing it out right now like a friggin shakespearean play. let em.
lets have a civil war.
gee. sounds fun.
lets have a sneaky puppet dictator.
gee golly. cant wait for some of that.
let the ceo's get fatter while people get raped.
do you think that they are going to just stop?
really?
not until we get back to decency and center.
pax americana.
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C'mon JB, why worry about ethics when there's enough to worry about with what's legal or what can proven.
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good point sandman.
perhaps we should get back to our puddin.
whats that? whats that you say corporate master? 'no meat. no pudding.?'
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88,
In your next to last post I see some statements mostly unrelated to each other and non connected. By posting in effect nonsense you hope to accomplish what? I saw absolutley no concept being espoused nor an arguement.
In retrospect I think it just time to stop feeding your troll until you say something cogent.
edited here as another popped up while I was writing.
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ive.
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teach me obie wan.
show me that swank pappa talk you gots.
whatever man.
critics at a harem.
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Contract that spawned Guantanamo prisons awarded to Halliburton during Cheney's tenure as CEO
John Byrne
Experts say firm may have built secret camps
A contract awarded to a Halliburton subsidiary in June 2000 while Vice President Dick Cheney was still at the helm of the firm spawned the detention centers at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, RAW STORY has discovered.
The contract, which allocated funds for “emergency construction capabilities” at “worldwide locations,” authorized the Defense Department to award Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root any number of specific naval construction deals abroad.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Pegged at an “estimated maximum” of $75 million in 2000, the deal mushroomed to $136 million by 2004. Some $58 million was dedicated to detention centers at Guantanamo Bay alone, with another $30 million in a second contract.
Specific contracts for the Guantanamo facilities were not inked until February of 2002. Cheney served as chief executive of the company from 1995 until July 2000, leaving shortly thereafter to join the Bush campaign.
The original deal, signed under Clinton, was also used for typhoon damage and breakwater repair of military bases abroad. After the invasion of Afghanistan, the Administration drew upon the open-ended agreement to construct detention centers at the U.S. Guantanamo Bay naval base for suspected members of Al Qaeda.
In 2002, the Pentagon said that additional options might reach $300 million. Security experts believe the Bush Administration may have carved out funding from the original agreement to build other secret detention facilities sprinkled across the globe.
Other facilities?
The Pentagon has tacitly acknowledged the existence of clandestine detention facilities, but details are scarce. The press office did not return repeated requests for comment.
In 2004, Human Rights First, a renowned human rights legal group, suggested the likelihood of facilities at Diego Garcia, a British island in the Indian Ocean. Other suspected facilities include prisons in northwest Pakistan; a Central Intelligence Agency prison in Jordan; additional unacknowledged holding centers in Afghanistan and Iraq; and brigs on two U.S. naval ships, the U.S.S. Bataan and the U.S.S. Peleliu (Read the report).
Kellogg, Brown and Root was awarded another contract in 2004 when their original deal expired, capped at $500 million. Under this new agreement, another $30 million Guantanamo contract was awarded to the firm last week.
John Pike, director of defense watchdog and analysis group GlobalSecurity.org, said KBR is uniquely qualified for building other detention facilities, having been pre-qualified for emergency naval construction projects in 2000.
“KBR was pre-qualified to do that work,” he added. “If the Navy needed something built quickly, they could get them on the phone and just do it.”
“Somebody had to build them,” Pike told RAW STORY. “If it was Diego Garcia for instance, it was quite probable that it would have been built under that contract. I think Diego Garcia would be an excellent location for a detention facility.”
Pike said its location made it an ideal choice for another prison.
“It’s in the middle of the Indian Ocean,” he continued. “Nobody visits there.”
A KBR spokeswoman declined to comment.
Concerns about secret prisons
Priti Patel, a staff attorney for Human Rights First, the group that produced the report on suspected secret U.S. facilities, says the number of known detainees held has risen dramatically since their report last year.
“I know when we were looking at the numbers in March, in Iraq, and Afghanistan, the numbers were skyrocketing,” Patel said.
The group says the number of acknowledged foreign suspects held in U.S. detention totals about 11,000. Many are held in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, but the location of some “high-value” suspects, like alleged Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, has never been disclosed.
“The United States government is holding prisoners in a secret system of off-shore prisons beyond the reach of adequate supervision, accountability, or law,” the Human Rights First Director of U.S. Law and Security program Deborah Pearlstein told reporters last year.
Pike suspects that the Pentagon has quietly paid defense firms to build clandestine detention facilities abroad. He cited the CIA as an example, saying many items in the CIA budget are secretly siphoned off from other Defense Department allocations.
“It’s called a carve-out contract, and it’s an unacknowledged contract inside an overtly acknowledged contract,” he said. “They might say that it was for one thing and it was for something else.”
The awarding of Defense Department contracts—like those for hidden detention centers—can be disguised legally.
“They’re not under oath,” Pike explained. “They’re not sworn to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth when they put out these contract announcements. The CIA hires people to do all kinds of things and they don’t announce any of their contracts.”
GlobalSecurity.org uses satellite imagery to track military installations. Pike spent nearly two decades at the Federation of American Scientists, studying the use of satellite imagery to monitor weapons worldwide.
During the Cold War, the U.S. used a system calling FROS (functionally related observable differences) for arms control inspections. Differences between one building and another could give clues to their purpose. But because secret facilities likely hold several dozen detainees instead of thousands, they are easily masked among existing military installations.
“Lorton is obviously a detention facility,” Pike said, speaking of the former District of Columbia jail that held as many as seven thousand inmates in its heyday. “But the D.C. [city] jail downtown, you can’t pick it out.”
Other Halliburton contracts questioned
Halliburton, a punching bag in the 2004 presidential campaign, has taken flak for other contracts relating to the “war on terror.” It was awarded a $7 billion no-bid contract to rebuild Iraqi oil fields, and has been criticized for a fuel transportation contract which critics say was grossly inflated.
The firm purchased gasoline in Kuwait for $2.20 per gallon while other contractors were paying $1.18 in Turkey. Pentagon auditors have questioned $212 million that the firm billed the U.S. to deliver fuel to Iraq; documents released in November also reveal the U.S. ambassador to Kuwait intervened to ensure Halliburton got the fuel transport deal.
Pentagon auditors have also suggested KBR overcharged the Army by as much as 40 percent for dining facilities.
Formerly Brown & Root, the firm has a long and checkered history in military contracting. It was among a consortium of firms charged with building hospitals in Vietnam during the U.S. engagement there, and was accused of pilfering millions from Pentagon coffers.
In 1967, the General Accounting Office faulted the firm for massive accounting lapses and for allowing thefts of materials. The company earned a nickname--Burn & Loot—and drew anti-war protesters who bemoaned the contracts as the embodiment of what President Dwight Eisenhower had called the military-industrial complex.
KBR received $5.5 billion in Iraq contracts for fiscal year 2004, and has billed the U.S. $10.5 billion so far to provide logistical support for the military in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East.
The Army awarded the firm a $72 million bonus in May for work in Iraq. They gave the firm the top ratings of "excellent" and "very good."
Halliburton said earlier this year it will seek to spin off KBR in a sale, spinoff or public offering.
#
KBR's Guantanamo Bay contracts include the following:
408 unit detention camp: $16 million (Feb. 2002) Radio Range Phase II: $7 million (April 2002) Radio Range Phase III: $9.7 million (July 2002) Radio Range construction: $12.5 million (June 2003) Radio Range (various): $12.9 million (June 2003) Detention camp #6 and various: $30mill (June 2005)
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Is that cut and paste addiction supposed to actually mean anything relevant? Are you implying that while the CEO of Haliburton, Chaney should not have been persuing contracts?
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for a detention center at gitmo you mean?
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Originally posted by JB88
for a detention center at gitmo you mean?
ok so BEFORE he was in office and BEFORE 9/11 and BEFORE Cheney while CEO, MAYBE (I say maybe because CEOs of HUGE coorporations dont allways persue contracts of their subsidiaries) got an open contract to expand Gitmo.
Skip forward a year or two and the need arises PDQ for a secure facility to interogate and house POWs/Combatents and they use this open contract to fill this urgent need.
Ok were's the problem here. I've said it before and I'll say it again and 88 I hope you actually listen this time.
THE US MILITARY USES KBR FOR ALOT OF CONSTRUCTION AND I DO MEAN ALOT!
This guy also quotes secret black prisons that groups want made public (HELLO IF MADE PUBLIC THEY ARNT SECRET BASES NOW ARE THEY)
In addition he goes WAAAAAYYYYYYY back to 1967 in wich B&R (were they even a subsidiary of haliburton back then?) was fined for fraudulent practices.
Seriously 88 I do not see at ALL the link other than the fact that cheny used to work for them. They did the job BEFORE he was VP they did the job BEFORE he was CEO. They do the job now......what's the difference?
the only thing I can even imagine that you are trying to say from THAT article is that Cheny oversaw ALL the contracts his company's subsidiaries persued. In that he knew they could all make a fortune by upgrading Gitmo because that's were all the terrorists would need to be held because they KNEW 9/11 was gonna happen before he took office?
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Originally posted by JB88
for a detention center at gitmo you mean?
There has to be a point here somewhere. I'm just missing it.
Are you actually trying to draw some correlation here? Try quoting worthless articles less and making valid points more.
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I feel confident I know more about prisons and their construction than anyone who has yet spoken- I spent most of a decade living in motels in little watermelon towns around the US and Puerto Rico (NO big city, or even a small city, wants a prison nearby) firing up the electronic stuff located therein. If you look at the bid specs for any jail or prison in this country about to go up, there are NEVER more than 12 or 13 companies listed as being ALLOWED to bid,(that is from a NATIONAL pool) and its likely most of THOSE arent in a position to start a 2 year job at any given point, maybe limiting the nationwide choice to perhaps a half dozen.-- Thats, a HALF dozen construction outfits in the WHOLE country that can build prisons--it's VERY specialized work, and just because you can build a school or an office building DOESNT mean you can build a prison. A prison which can hold 1,200 inmates--having the required built-in school, medical section, kitchens, (one I worked on in Florence, AZ has THREE kitchens) etc. would be some $75 million in Florida--and THATS in the continental US--imagine the incurred cost of ALL the concrete and heavy equipment being shipped across the Caribbean, and the hundred or so guys building the thing being paid hardship money to live in a chithole like Gitmo. As with many jobs that Halliburton gets, damn few other companies could accomplish the job.
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Btw, one of the last jobs my old company was doing when I quit last year was building a beastly high-tech replacement for Sheriff Joe's 'tent city':lol
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Originally posted by bj229r
Btw, one of the last jobs my old company was doing when I quit last year was building a beastly high-tech replacement for Sheriff Joe's 'tent city':lol
high tech tents???? do tell more ;)
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Originally posted by bj229r
Btw, one of the last jobs my old company was doing when I quit last year was building a beastly high-tech replacement for Sheriff Joe's 'tent city':lol
arpio. i am familiar with his antics.
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Originally posted by JB88
arpio. i am familiar with his antics.
yes but what do you have to say about his post?
Do you still think back in 1995 Cheny and haliburton dreamt this whole plot up. They and they alone with the help of their subsidiary company KBR, one of a handfull of companys able to build a US prison on foreign soil, predicted in 2000 what would happen on 9/11 so they (the Cheny goon squad) set up a contract to build a prison that will coincidentally be needed 2 years later to hold prisoners from a war that hasn't happend yet that Cheny will have started while in office?
Cmon man how far do you want to strech this.
Cheny as VP does not issue out contracts for the Dept of Deffense NORE does he have oversight.
Cheny was CEO of HALIBURTON not KBR. KBR is the one that peformed alot of the work and haliburton obviously owns KBR.
There's a disticnt possibility that Cheny had very little to do with ANYTHING that KBR bid on and that he just collected the rewards and kept the sharholders happy.
this line you are drawing thakes way to many off angle turns even through time itself to even show any type of relevent proof of any type of conspiracy.
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im not arguing anything.
i am asking questions.
simple as that.
now. does this latest revelation make me even more skeptical?
yes.
why?
well, for starters it makes me wonder if maybe i could be getting a better bang for my tax dollar. lets see. x starts a war. x who happens to be deeply wrapped in the contractural field related to the war field and/or the oil field just happens to be the choice for vice president under "A" who just happens to have a grudge against daddy. meanwhile "A" is setting up all of the things that were preplanned in advance to make sure that the buddies of x are getting a fair share of my money.
so. it makes me wonder.
how many schools could we build?
how many bills could be passed to simplify the tax code rather than keeping it out of the reach of the average man.
how many friggin soldiers have to die in iraq or people suffer until this great thirst is quenched?
i mean really.
CONTRACTS FOR A PRISON NEEDED FOR A WAR THAT NOONE KNEW WAS GOING TO BE WAGED?
so. where the hell is osama?
no. i dont trust it.
and im friggin tired of payin for it.
over and out.
88
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This troll has gone on long enough. If all you want is answers, then write your favorite politician as all anyone can do here is speculate.