Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: kj714 on June 17, 2005, 06:37:35 PM
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How do you guys handle it?
Netaces says go nose up into them and discourage them with guns, I find this not very successful as so many don't really care and will dive anyway taking the chance on the kill or be killed HO.
When I see someone setting up for a dive on me, I try to set a course perpindicular to theirs, and turn under them when they get about d1000 or so, pull up some and start climbing, rinse and repeat until they either lose interest or we are equalized so that nobody has an advantage. Most of the bnz'rs nowdays seem to fly away after a couple passes if they don't get ya.
How do you guys do it?
Pellik, if you're here, you're pretty consistently deadly from an alt position, whats (if you care to share) the biggest mistakes people make with you, other than no SA, mistakes when they know you're coming?
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coincidently, I just posted this in another thread...Why merge? (ah film) (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=35)
Most of the time I do something like that. If I cant do that for whatever reason, I do a simple evade (usually under) and gather the speed to to option 1 the next time. On the deck though, I enjoy positioning myself to say "I dare you to take the shot and auger for me"
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someone with alt diving in on you isn't really a huge threat, more of a mild annoyance. because of their speed, they are not going to be able to follow you in even a basic maneuver.
What I do.
I try to get them as close as possible, and try to get them to try and force a shot, thus blowing their E. I usually won't make a move until they are 1k back ish or less (depends on just HOW fast they are), and I favor the low yoyo. Split S's cost 2 much E, whereas the yoyo is a happy medium, and the flat turn gets you nothing.
After they miss, I tend to then egress in an opposite direction. Let 'em reverse, blow more e coming after me.
Generally, after 3-4 passes like this, they are pretty committed to the fight, and after they make the BOOM on you, will typically do something dumb. At this point, you usually hold the advantage. They are trying to turn with you, loop on you, whatever, and bleeding their E down so they CAN turn with you. You have the advantage of turning (not saying flat turn, can also be in the vert, yoyo whatever) and it's pretty easy to force a fight on them/cause 'em to over shoot, out turn them etc, etc... The ones that are worrysome, are the guys that make a pass or two, THEN chop throttle, reverse rudder, and bring the fight to you (Levi. for a good example. that guy did that to me in his tempest a time or two. One two passes, then BAM can't shake 'em, he's suddenly slow on my 6) Many pilot do this (heck, I do alot).
In general, I don't consider high alt guys much of a threat, unless there are two or three of them all doing b/z's on me at the same time. THAT get's a bit difficult to time.
(edit) the key is being patient. they WILL make a dumb move trying to get guns on you. You MIGHT only get one quick snapshot, so make it count.
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I think that timing is the key.
If you wait too long he's pinging you, break too early and he's got a better chance to blow E & follow.
Depending on the plane & the speed I like to break when I see them about 800.
Low yo yo works well, if you like a split S fine, make the best zoom you can on the other side of it before he turns.
It helps if you can steal his E and alt while building yours.
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Here is another example (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownloaddetails&lid=34&ttitle=commit)
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I usually make my move.......
right after I blow up :p
OK, so, I dont really know what a yo yo is, but I make a quick left, and right turn (or right and left), at about 800-1000 range. I blow whatever E I have doing this but once in a while it actually turns into a good fight, and even more rarely I even manage to win it! but usually I die.
gotta watch murdr's films now
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Originally posted by kj714
How do you guys handle it?
Get out of the way.
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one more (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=36)
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Depends.
Mild evasives usually works well... until it turns out that someone like Fester is the one coming from above. Or though some may consider him a dweeb, Taki is also incredible in first merge gunnery too.
So if you have any reason to believe that someone above you is a superior pilot, particularly in gunnery, the chances are within 5~6 dives he will damage something off you. Take whatever evasives necessary, and try to bugger out and gather some help.
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At about 1.5 away, start turning into his angle, when he hits 1.0, pull nose up for about 1 second then roll down on his line. He will pop right under you at about d400. If you want to work on this a little KJ, give me a yell and we can go to DA.
Many times this will cause most people to just run away, the other bunch will just try looping over and over till you eventually kill them after they lose their E =)
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If the reference to Netaces is to starhawks' defeat the alt monkey article, there was a bit more to that than simply nose up to the enemy and show guns. There was a fair bit of info on how to increase your e-state while bleeding the enemy's. That being said, that stuff could work in AW, but I'm not sure how well it will work here. I also believe his article does say that the alt monkey who flies without making a mistake will have you for breakfast.
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Originally posted by kj714
Netaces says go nose up into them and discourage them
kj, read a bit deeper... the theme of all the articles on how to deal with higher bogies is equalizing energy so you can deal with the bad guy on your own terms. Going nose up while they are nose down is one way to do that and gives you a large payoff because you are gaining alt (stored E) while the bandit is losing it.
Some of the articles advocate going nose to nose but, as noted on those articles, they were written for brand W where HOs were mostly thrown out. It wasn't saying use bullets to discourage them, it was saying nose to nose was safe because HOs didn't hit most of the time. You have to make adjustments in specific tactics to allow for differences in simulations, but the themes are timeless.
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Never chase the high guy up. Thats usually what he wants you to do. always remember, pet comes to master, master doesnt chase pet.
When he comes down on you. Use his speed to your avantage. Barrel roll, or any of the above mentioned objects will work.
If you must climb, climb on his dive. and level out or dive on his climb unless he is well within gunnery range. For me thats usually under 500.
Now when I say climb on his dive that doesnt mean you have to fly right at his guns for an HO. If you time it right you start a turn just before he reaches you and roll over inverted and come back down. If you do it right this will put you right on his 6 for a snapshot.
If you have any kinf of alt say 10K or more and the bad guy is high and you screw up and end up with him on your 6 and you cant shake him, nose down and barrel roll towards the ground Then at the last second Chop throttle and pull back on the stick breaking right or left. Alot of these guys are so intent on getting the kill on you they will keep chasing you full throttle and often with wep on. Since they are comming donw on you form a higher alt they will probably compress well before you do. and you get yourself a nice little proxy kill right after he says "oh chit" when he realises he cant pull out of his dive and splats into the ground.
Aint worth no points but you did just get him to embarress the hell out of himself and you get a good chuckle out of it..
If your lower to the ground use the terrain to your advantage. Make him avoid that hill or clump of trees and tunr in a way he didnt want to go to avoid hitting them. If your lower and slower then he it will be alot easier for you to do them him. and often you can work it to the point that gives you the advantage.
Now this stuff will work against the majority of pilots but not all.
IF your up against someone who is very good AND flies smart.
fugeddaboutit.
There are alot of guys that fly good. and alot of guys that fly smart. But very few that consistantly do both at the same time.
Wish I were one of em LOL
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Hi
This is just one possible setup if you are low alt. This works often very well near steep hill / mountain sides. Use land mass for your advantage if possible.
Timing is critical with this vertical 1 circle fight setup. Smart enemy can hold back Panic-Pull urge and extend enough first.
(http://warezhouse.1g.fi/test/Lo_E_Merge.gif)
- - - - 's marks a rolling plane.
You avoid HO with half barrel roll.
(edit)
Howitzer just explain my picture :)
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OK, Murdr, a question --
What is the "level fligth recovery altitude"? You emphasize how important it is on the website, but I'm ignorant enough to not know what the term means, and unashamed enough to ask....
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(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/lfra.jpg)
Basicly if you have an enemy that can achieve a higher alt than you, you'll want to estimate if your max alt will be above where the enemy can convert to level flight after decending on you. If it is above, you can estimate the best decent arc the enemy can achieve. Those three things define a safe zone where the enemy is simply unable to put his guns on you. In ropes, loop fights, stall fights, ect, you can use this zone to your advantage. Much of the time, but not always, it involves the enemy stalling at the top, so I look at it in terms of the altitude they can recover level flight after a stall. Hence LFRA.
In the film posted here where I refered to it, I initially got him to overshoot with a barrel reversal. To counter that, he made is second pass at a slow speed. My answer to that was to give away the shot, and charge right through his decent arc into the safe zone. Because of our relative E states, his choices were limited from that point on.
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/lfra2.jpg)
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I close my eyes and move the stick round as fast as possible and hope i can make it to the enemy base in time to get my bombs off.
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Originally posted by kj714
Pellik, if you're here, you're pretty consistently deadly from an alt position, whats (if you care to share) the biggest mistakes people make with you, other than no SA, mistakes when they know you're coming?
Predictability. Good pilots usually fly like good pilots. When I attack somebody I'll usually start a fake pass that ends right as they begin their first evasive. That pass can teach me pretty much everything I need to know about a pilot to get in his head. Knowing when to lag turn 3 degrees above your opponent to pick up the reversal shot is really all you need as a pure attacker. Worrying about stealing a turnfight from a lower con is a waste if you can shoot.
Bad pilots also suffer predictability in their first evasive. There are bad moves I've seen literally thousands of times. Without proper defensive positioning good evasives are risky at best. A pilot who lets me into a good attacking line is probably gonna get hit on the first pass as I can tell by closure rate when it's just too late to turn into me, and I will be super aggressive as the result.
As for learning defense, all of the really great pilots have their own style of evasive. I can teach you cut and paste moves to get you out safe 80% of the time, but getting above that 4/5ths probability requires you to have more natural moves. If you want to learn those you'd best just experiment like hell now before you become distracted with this fancy stuff. Try something new every pass, nothing twice in a fight, and pretty soon you'll discover a routine that works for you.
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reverse (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownloaddetails&lid=11&ttitle=reverse.zip) 2nd pass on me in the film is what xjazz posted a pic of.
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My Fav is to head to deck, slow almost to a stall, as they approach at speed sharp turn into them, they will either pull up before shooting, crash or overfly. :)
But then I havent flown in a couple years:(
But i do know if you brandish a whip and such they may think twice:)
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BIGGG Shout out to Murdr and the 479th
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I try to HO
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Originally posted by Murdr
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/lfra.jpg)
Basicly if you have an enemy that can achieve a higher alt than you, you'll want to estimate if your max alt will be above where the enemy can convert to level flight after decending on you. If it is above, you can estimate the best decent arc the enemy can achieve. Those three things define a safe zone where the enemy is simply unable to put his guns on you. In ropes, loop fights, stall fights, ect, you can use this zone to your advantage. Much of the time, but not always, it involves the enemy stalling at the top, so I look at it in terms of the altitude they can recover level flight after a stall. Hence LFRA.
In the film posted here where I refered to it, I initially got him to overshoot with a barrel reversal. To counter that, he made is second pass at a slow speed. My answer to that was to give away the shot, and charge right through his decent arc into the safe zone. Because of our relative E states, his choices were limited from that point on.
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/films/lfra2.jpg)
I'm a bit confused. It seems to me that the enemy can chose any shallow arc he wants. Looking at your first diagram, why couldnt he start his pull up sooner, and thus avoid bottoming out beneath you?
Or are you taking the relative horizontal separation into account, and requiring that the enemy not overshoot -- so he has to dive wiht certain minimum angle? If that's what you mean, wouldnt a lateral component to his maneuver eat up some of the difference, and make the "safe" zone not so safe?
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Originally posted by Sadist
BIGGG Shout out to Murdr and the 479th
Hiya Sadist, LTNS bro!
Give us a shout if ya ever pin your wings back on!
Tkor
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it depends on what you are in and what is diving at you
you aren't going to make the same evade moves against 109g10 as you would a 109f - or you shouldn't anyways, if you want to live
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Originally posted by Simaril
I'm a bit confused. It seems to me that the enemy can chose any shallow arc he wants. Looking at your first diagram, why couldnt he start his pull up sooner, and thus avoid bottoming out beneath you?
Or are you taking the relative horizontal separation into account, and requiring that the enemy not overshoot -- so he has to dive wiht certain minimum angle? If that's what you mean, wouldnt a lateral component to his maneuver eat up some of the difference, and make the "safe" zone not so safe?
Lets look at zoom to stall first. You'll notice that first diagram shows a stall by virtue of the enemy zooming to max alt.
Attack/pursuit modes from 479th site
You gain or almost gain position o_n a p51 for a few seconds, but he is a little faster. You are in pure pursuit. He sees his E advangage, and pulls a steep climb, and then settles into a sustainable climb. You revert to lag pursuit to conserve speed and start a sustainable climb. (fig1)
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules/Sections/images/fig1.jpg)
At some point the bogie feels he has out climbed you, and maintained distance long enough to pull a basic stall loop rope. You move from pursuit mode to intercept mode. (fig2)
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules/Sections/images/fig2.jpg)
The reason for going to intercept mode is because you should already know at this point that the bogie will zoom as far as he can and either stall (most likely), or move into advanced ropeing like lowering the nose and hanging o_n flaps to delay a stall. Either way you do NOT want to continue pursuit mode and be directly under him.
Just to review, the bogie started out with a little more speed than you, then equalized the speed trading it for alt. You have attempted to minimize transfering speed for alt, saving the speed for a manover. Why?
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/modules/Sections/images/fig3.jpg)
We know he has more E than you and in a pure zoom, he will top out higher than you. However there is a weakness in his position. He cannot pull the nose up at stall, and wont be able to go to level flight for several seconds. Your goal is to let him stall first above you in altitude (and away from you horizontally) and time your stall to be above his level flight recovery altitude. You do this correctly, and you will also have a heavy nose, but you will be above him. For a few seconds the tables are turned. You are higher than him, and out of reach from his nose. He is lower, which is where your nose is going anyways. Even if you dont get the killer shot at this point, you still avoided being roped.
If the enemy zooms to stall, they require X amount of altitude to recover level flight. Once the stall happens the best decent arc is set in stone. There isnt a choice of taking a shallower angle. In that situation, you can (or at least I can) visualize their decent arc before they even stall over, and be out of harms way before they even nose down.
Now if you take the stall out of the equation, it becomes an issue of how steep their decent is. The high plane for a matter of practicallity can do anything he pleases. If they choose to come in at a steep angle, you could use the same idea by estimating their best pull out arc, and get above it before they get their guns on you. Like any other move you might see described, it's only relevent if the situation fits, and the enemy coorperates
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Great stuff, thanks for the tips.
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this, been to busy at work to gett to BBS.
I'm going to check all this out, see what works for me best!
Once again, thanks for sharing the knowledge!