Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on June 19, 2005, 10:54:31 PM
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Is there any more to this?
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005
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thats no suprise, EVERYBODY knows that euro's, russians, germanys are better at every thing than the dumb redneck mericans.
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Thanks... that was helpful.
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I think its great if its true and I have no reason to believe that it isn't. This just struck me as some very biased writing. If it were in quotes I'd understand but this is definitely slanted.
The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.
'Limey' is not in quotes. That just bugs me.
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The Eurofigher is newer, and designed for air superiority, so sounds very plausible. We can only coast so far before... wait, what? Hold on, I'm getting some sort of newflash here... it says... that there's actually a successor to the F-15! Wait, there's more!
Apparently, it's called the... the.. damnit, it's not coming through this static! Ah yes, there is is: The F-22.
Substitute an F-22 for the 2x30 year old plane designs, and it'd be a bit more shocking.
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Yeah, nothing shocking to me about the euro taking out the 2 f-15's. It's a state of the art fighter, fighting older aircraft. Not taking anything away from it, it is a nice bird. But any modern aircraft outta be able to do so. I saw on a program recently on the history channel where an f-22 engaged 3 or 5(can't remember which one) f-15's and smote them. I think it would be interesting for the f-22 and euro to go at it, I bet it would be good.
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in another f-22 vs. eurofighter thread, I recall a 2 F-22's taking on 8 f-15's (or were they f-16's) and winning (might have been 12, slept since then) so I wouldn't jump up and down about winning vs. only 2.
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F22 is also as expensive as 10 F15s or something like that, so it better wipe 'em out en masse :D
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Throw a JSF in the mix and it REALLY gets interesting.
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Reminds me of the bullcrap stories that Harrier pilot wrote about smoking every US jet with his thrust vectoring haxx0r skeelz.
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Upon further review, I believe it. It was an F-15E, a strike platform, not a fighter. It's not shocking that a lightweight pure fighter could turn the tables on a bomber in a turning engagement.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Upon further review, I believe it. It was an F-15E, a strike platform, not a fighter. It's not shocking that a lightweight pure fighter could turn the tables on a bomber in a turning engagement.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!
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Originally posted by Fishu
F22 is also as expensive as 10 F15s or something like that, so it better wipe 'em out en masse :D
LoL, good point.
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what you are all forgetting is that it is not the plane but the pilot. you can have the best plane ever made and you will lose to superior pilots.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Reminds me of the bullcrap stories that Harrier pilot wrote about smoking every US jet with his thrust vectoring haxx0r skeelz.
So Commander Ward was lying when he discribe that engagement in his book, "Sea Harrier Over the Falklands: A Maverick at War"?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
So Commander Ward was lying when he discribe that engagement in his book, "Sea Harrier Over the Falklands: A Maverick at War"?
What US jets did he shoot down?
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Sharkey's account was refuted in detail by the other pilots involved.
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all i know is i seen F15 & Eurofighters demonstraiting aerobatics
at an airshow in Berlin. The Eurofighter could almost turn 180° on place, it
looked so unrealistic. And btw. it was the loudest plane at the airshow.
A good Pilot + Eurofighter @ dogfight = very dangerous.
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it was the first training sortie of 2 2 seat eaurofighters , apparently the usaf guy's were overheard in the mess saying wtf was that!!!!!
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Originally posted by bob149
it was the first training sortie of 2 2 seat eaurofighters , apparently the usaf guy's were overheard in the mess saying wtf was that!!!!!
no, thy try to figured out how the heck he can turn after taking hit by their amram
oh wait, they thought he is just fooling around and not take him seriously
i bet all of you kow this newbies on TA, you pump heavy burst in th guy and ignore him as shooted down , when he finish his "dance", wich just to be evasive manuvers, he chase you and start shooting from behinde , claming he shoot you down
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So Smidsy your saying they were better pilots. Forget the fact that they were going up against a 33 year old airframe and fighter/bomber no less in the F-15E in a controlled scenario?
I wanna see what happens when the Raptor actively participates in Red Flag Excersize if this is the case.
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The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world.
heeeeeeeeeeee ?
MURDO MACLEOD
POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT
aaaahhhh...
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MMM I dunno about this one but my senses tell me that when the Typhoon flew over the other day it was a pretty handy piece of kit!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Substitute an F-22 for the 2x30 year old plane designs, and it'd be a bit more shocking.
Is F22 in operational structure of army or only on to do list ?
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dont be afraid amrikaan friends we dutch eurotard usa prettythang lickers will buy the JSF.
Would be interesting against a F16 btw.
The F15 is just to big and got 2 engines so it must be crap.
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I would be more impressed if it would have beaten latest Sukhois, Rafales, or Gripens.
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Originally posted by mora
I would be more impressed if it would have beaten latest Sukhois, Rafales, or Gripens.
Im afraid its same story like Windows vs. linux.....
Do you know whitch of those 2 is more secure ?
And i guess that in community of virtual pilots aka ubber tards its more that clear that its not only about airplanes :)
Did you see russian Phantasmagoria these ?
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The euroturd fighter will never even see the F22 coming... That is one key difference. Dog fighting is a thing of the past and a plane designed to do so is a waste of money... They will be blown from the sky before they even say tally ho!
Its just like the Euros to put up an OLD attack ac against their newest and best ac. I guess they are trying to market the ac and that is the best they can do.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Sharkey's account was refuted in detail by the other pilots involved.
....well damn.
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Originally posted by Deertick
Dog fighting is a thing of the past and a plane designed to do so is a waste of money...
They've been saying that for the last 60 years. Only thing that has changed is the techniques used to down the other plane. If they thought dogfighting was over we wouldn't have Top Gun type schools.
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"Can't we all just...get along"
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Originally posted by lada
Is F22 in operational structure of army or only on to do list ?
yes they have fully operational squadrons recieving new jets all the time.
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I remember back over on AGW some years back, a guy who was a backseater in an F4 stationed in the Med in the early 70s once described pulling an intercept on a RAF Vulcan at somethilng like 40k. The Vulcan beat them.
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Its just like the Euros to put up an OLD attack ac against their newest and best ac. I guess they are trying to market the ac and that is the best they can do.
The F-15's jumped the Eurofighter Typhoon, not the other way around.
Doesnt surprise me that the Eurofighter with its forward canards was able to beat a pair of F-15's. Never mind that the F-15's were E models, the F-15 in all its variants is still a superb dogfighter. The basic design is now 30+ years old. Thats why we are building the Raptor and the JSF :)
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Yeah, nothing shocking to me about the euro taking out the 2 f-15's. It's a state of the art fighter, fighting older aircraft. Not taking anything away from it, it is a nice bird. But any modern aircraft outta be able to do so. I saw on a program recently on the history channel where an f-22 engaged 3 or 5(can't remember which one) f-15's and smote them. I think it would be interesting for the f-22 and euro to go at it, I bet it would be good.
I think it was 5 Superdud, and didnt the Raptor pilot say it was like clubbing baby seals during the debrief?
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'Limey' is not in quotes. That just bugs me.
Just curious, why does it bug you? It doesnt bug me one bit when people from other countries call Americans Yanks.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I think it was 5 Superdud, and didnt the Raptor pilot say it was like clubbing baby seals during the debrief?
LoL, yeah those were his exact words. I think that's why I remember it so well:lol I think he had downed them all before they knew he was there, well beyond vis range. Neat stuff!
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Originally posted by Deertick
The euroturd fighter will never even see the F22 coming... That is one key difference. Dog fighting is a thing of the past and a plane designed to do so is a waste of money... They will be blown from the sky before they even say tally ho!
Its just like the Euros to put up an OLD attack ac against their newest and best ac. I guess they are trying to market the ac and that is the best they can do.
Yep. You can be the best damn pilot in the world but if you can't even see your enemy before he shoots missiles at you, its pretty much over from the start.
F-22 will win hands down against the Eurofighter for that reason right there.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
They've been saying that for the last 60 years. Only thing that has changed is the techniques used to down the other plane. If they thought dogfighting was over we wouldn't have Top Gun type schools.
When was the last Guns kill in a US fighter?
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Originally posted by Raider179
When was the last Guns kill in a US fighter?
VIetnam era i believe (somewhere in the '70-75 MiGs 17/21 vs F-4 Phantoms)
or
The Israelis vs Egyptians / Syria in the 70s, 80s
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Originally posted by 1K3
VIetnam era i believe (somewhere in the '70-75 MiGs 17/21 vs F-4 Phantoms)
Yeah I figured it was something like that. So the f-15 and f-14 neither have any A-A gun kills right? Makes sense to me. If you get close enough for guns these days your lucky your not a smoking hole.
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Did the F-15Es have Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) in that fight? I believe the fight would been somewhat balanced.
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Raider,
I dunno when the last guns kill was but it came close a few times in desert storm when the initial batch of aim-7s had an 80%+ failure rate at launch. The last 2 USAF kills were in or rapidly approaching the visual arena due to missile failure and the rules of engagement may not always allow for BVR shots, resulting in a knife-fight. The Israelis may have a few modern jet guns kills but I'm not sure. I know for a fact that there were guns-only engagements in relatively recent South American conflicts.
Remember, it was only 3 years ago when F-15 pilots swore up and down that they would NEVER take their 55 million dollar fighter low enough to strafe, yet it's become an important option that all of our fighters bring to the table on the modern battlefield. We've had guys strafing within about 50 yards of troops in contact, and you can't do that with anything but a gun. You can't get that kind of accuracy with a podded gun, even if you have a suitable weapons station on which to hang it. It's gotten to the point that we made a serious effort to determine if we could teach F-15C pilots how to strafe. It didn't go too well for various reasons but it was important enough that we gave it a shot.
I don't know a single fighter jock who would honestly recommend getting rid of the internal gun, unless he/she has an agenda to push. There will likely be a tradeoff made with the JSF in certain variants due to airframe space limitations, but I know for a FACT that the service due to receive those fighters will regret that design deficiency. Every single time we've removed the internal gun from a US designed fighter, we've wished we had it back later on. Every single time.
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The US employs a complete air defense system. It does not rely on a single aircraft to perform all of the functions of air defense. Most engagements are designed to be won very early at extreme ranges. This is where the US excells is at identifying and eliminating threats extremely early, so you need a fast stealthy missle hauling truck to deliver kills at extreme ranges. The F-22 is designed to do this better than anything else in the sky. I believe it has some additional maneouvering enhancements to help it if it gets to within close range of an enemy, but it is not designed to get in close on a regular basis and neither is the F15.
The JSF is designed to do everything, with an emphasis on maneouverability and survivability. It cannot perform many of the functions the F-22 can or the F-15. In a normal world, the F-15 and the F-22 would have killed the JSF long before the dogfight developed. Having forgone the early engagement, it seems this was an experiment to see how they would perform in close quarters, an area the JSF excells in, and an area these F-15's (specificly this model) are not ideally suited. It is kinda like turn fighting a Spit V with two P47's, in my book this is a toss up, especially if the Spit V pilot is very good.
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Sounds like a couple of F15 jocks were unprepared for an aggressive and highly competant trainer in the Euro and were soundly spanked (I would suspect same trainer attended Red Flag since most RAF pilots get over that way).
I would rather look at the stats and compare the two aircraft on performance values for a better overall feel of which is the superior platform.
Without knowing the actual performance stats I would expect the Euro to be highly competative to the Eagle and I would also imagine with confidence that fighting capabilities of the Eagle played a signifcant role in shaping the Euros design.
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Sounds to me like Straiga is now training the RAF....
Where's Golfer, maybe he can verify. :rofl
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It's equally likely that the F-15s hit their low-level training rules that call for a fight termination after 180 deg of turn or a change in offensive/defensive roles, and terminated their maneuvering. Current training rules and UK airspace structure do not allow for a full-up ACM engagement at low altitudes so such engagement opportunities often result in taking a shot if possible, and flowing through the fight by acknowledging obvious kills and continuing on our way.
You guys are sure getting all bent out of shape discussing this... It's almost like an aero club guy bragging how the last time he got his piper cub up to 6000 ft, he got an F-15 to overshoot in a flat scissors and gunned it on the way by. Piffle. If you don't have a firm understanding of the training rules and restrictions, or the exact situation at the time, saying anyone got spanked is pretty much ignorant trash talking. If a eurofighter driver comes up to me after gunning me and gives me a little dig for flying a skypig, he's earned that right. Reading it in here... Heh... Well, it's a neat story I guess but most of the people making pseudo-factual statements and declarations have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
Want my personal opinion on what MIGHT have happened? My guess is that the F-15 guys saw the eurofighter and although they could have wasted it BVR, they either couldn't meet their pre-briefed ROE or wanted to get up closer to take a look first. When they got up close, they got an up-close and personal look at the energy maneuvering capabilities of a modern next-generation fighter. Remember again that our training rules do not permit low-altitude ACM tactics to be practiced so "what we'd really do" style of tactic in a visual-id situation, where (for example) one jet might dust-off the bogie while the other one hung back a few miles ready to fire at the hostile declaration, could not be used. A mach+ separation could not be used. They couldn't jettison external stores or tanks (brits get mad when we bomb the UK, go figure).
Er... that is all :)
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Is it time for us to be fielding an new "frontline" fighter?
Yep. But that really goes beyond and irrespective of this engagement.
Was there something else?
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dam........
always one guy with facts, a complete understanding of the topic and first hand experience taking the wind out of a great BS thread.
NEXT!!!!
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Originally posted by Elfie
Just curious, why does it bug you? It doesnt bug me one bit when people from other countries call Americans Yanks.
I was online Saturday night with a bunch of brits talking about a game we play when a lady broke in and asked who the yank was. I told her, she said hi and it didnt bother me at all.
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Eagl, you make every other post in here sound like moronic blabber, including mine. Nice Post, and thanks for the insight.:)
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Originally posted by eagl
They couldn't jettison external stores or tanks (brits get mad when we bomb the UK, go figure).
That reminds me of the AW con a few years back. Bud Anderson was talking about how Chuck Yeager dropped his tanks so he could strafe and set them on fire.
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Early Tranche 1 RAF Eurofighters are fitted with cannon but don't have the software for them to fire (they're purposely not supported). Later Tranche 2 aircraft don't have cannon fitted at all due to tests of fatigue of the airframe etc.
Anyway, here's an interview with Chief of Staff - General John. P. Jumper on being the only pilot to fly both the F-22 and the Eurofighter.
3/22/2005 - WASHINGTON -- The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft.
Gen. John P. Jumper said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.
"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."
The Raptor is the latest addition to the Air Force combat aircraft inventory. The Eurofighter is a combat fighter aircraft designed and produced as a joint effort by several European countries.
Despite being designed for different missions, General Jumper said the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft.
"The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."
The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.
"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."
General Jumper said he believes the Eurofighter and the Raptor will help America's allies and the Air Force each perform their part of the overall mission as they work together to execute the war on terror.
"We do things in a complementary way," he said. "We have been to war with our allies in Desert Storm, in Kosovo and more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq. We all have our roles to play, and the role of the U.S. Air Force is in many ways to kick down the door and make sure the airspace is available for people to do whatever it is they want to do in the air or on the ground under that airspace."
One advantage of having flown the Eurofighter, General Jumper said, is that it allows him to get first-hand knowledge of technology U.S. allies use and to see how America's handiwork stacks up. He said he believes the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology.
"You can see the technology that is out there compared with ours," he said. "You see the avionics and all of the great progress that has been made. You make sure you are not too complacent, because the technology that they have is very competitive with technology that we have."
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Originally posted by Krusher
That reminds me of the AW con a few years back. Bud Anderson was talking about how Chuck Yeager dropped his tanks so he could strafe and set them on fire.
That's from Yeager's biography. Turned out their squadron had gotten into a big furball at the same time they were off playing and the ground crews thought they must have gotten a bunch of kills since they came in with blackened wings. They never did get those DT's to ignite.
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I talked to a test pilot of the Eurofighter when on a job interview at BAE Systems' base in Preston.
He said the Eurofighter should beat F16, F15 and Tornado and only be out-performed by the F-22. But then again, I guess you can start to measure effectiveness in £/plane - although £8 billion over budget must be eating into that particular KPI.
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Originally posted by eagl
Raider,
I dunno when the last guns kill was but it came close a few times in desert storm when the initial batch of aim-7s had an 80%+ failure rate at launch. The last 2 USAF kills were in or rapidly approaching the visual arena due to missile failure and the rules of engagement may not always allow for BVR shots, resulting in a knife-fight. The Israelis may have a few modern jet guns kills but I'm not sure. I know for a fact that there were guns-only engagements in relatively recent South American conflicts.
Remember, it was only 3 years ago when F-15 pilots swore up and down that they would NEVER take their 55 million dollar fighter low enough to strafe, yet it's become an important option that all of our fighters bring to the table on the modern battlefield. We've had guys strafing within about 50 yards of troops in contact, and you can't do that with anything but a gun. You can't get that kind of accuracy with a podded gun, even if you have a suitable weapons station on which to hang it. It's gotten to the point that we made a serious effort to determine if we could teach F-15C pilots how to strafe. It didn't go too well for various reasons but it was important enough that we gave it a shot.
I don't know a single fighter jock who would honestly recommend getting rid of the internal gun, unless he/she has an agenda to push. There will likely be a tradeoff made with the JSF in certain variants due to airframe space limitations, but I know for a FACT that the service due to receive those fighters will regret that design deficiency. Every single time we've removed the internal gun from a US designed fighter, we've wished we had it back later on. Every single time.
I wouldnt want them(guns) to be removed either. They definitely have their uses, but The fact still remains that most engagements since vietnam are with missiles. Sounds like those strafing f-15's were doing a job that apaches/cobras/a10s should have been tasked for.
not too mention I think it would damn near impossible to shoot down a modern jet with guns. But you would know more about that than me so I defer:)
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Tranche 3 Eurofighter will probably be superior to most aircraft... but you're talking 7 or 8 years off for T3. Have to make do with T1 and T2 aircraft for now.
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being called a limey doesnt bother me, in fact i am very suprised someone got all anal about it.
if i called a yank, 'a yank' and he got all upset, i would laugh at him too.
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I don't like being called a yank you limey
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Originally posted by eagl
It's equally likely that the F-15s hit their low-level training rules that call for a fight termination after 180 deg of turn or a change in offensive/defensive roles, and terminated their maneuvering. Current training rules and UK airspace structure do not allow for a full-up ACM engagement at low altitudes so such engagement opportunities often result in taking a shot if possible, and flowing through the fight by acknowledging obvious kills and continuing on our way.
An excellent point. Unbriefed ACM training exercises are probably frowned upon.
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I asked a german teacher in Middle School about 'kraut' and she indicated that she found it offensive, or at the least, insulting. I'd like to get a couple more data points from Germans on this.
In regards to the Eurofighter again, it's an awesome plane, and I hope the US and Eurofighter equipped nations fight side by side, if any fighting has to be done.
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Heh well nice to see the o'club is back to its old self again :)
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The first time i got called roast beef by a some french students i burst out laughing. We were in a mates car driving to cardiff and two of them were kicking the back of my seat chanting "roast beef! roast beef!":D
Limey has never bothered me either. Hmmm... maybe all those limes were the cause of my funky teeth through generations of lime sucking....
Curse you limes!!!!!!:mad:
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I personally dont find "yank" offensive. Kinda enjoy it actually. I could see how kraut could be tho. Just rolls of the tongue funny.
EDIT: Do the A-10 gun kills in Desert Storm count? That would be one hell of a way to eat it. 30mm through the chopper. eeeeek.
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Originally posted by eagl
A mach+ separation could not be used. They couldn't jettison external stores or tanks (brits get mad when we bomb the UK, go figure).
Er... that is all :)
as allways eagl you make very good points. Especially the quoted line above.
We couldn't have the commander lose his golf club filled TDY pod now could we?;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
We couldn't have the commander lose his golf club filled TDY pod now could we?;)
TDY Pod? I think we used to call those blivets (ten pounds of crap in a five pound bag). ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
TDY Pod? I think we used to call those blivets (ten pounds of crap in a five pound bag). ;)
Their also called travel pods. not sure if F15s have them but I asume they do. Its basically a streamlined pod that u can put luggage in for travel. In an F16 you can't go over MACH 0.95 with it on.
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You inevitably design your stuff to counter your enemy's stuff, not your ally's.
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I would be amazed to learn from the designers of the eurofighter that the performace of the F15/F16 fighters played no role in inspiring better performance of the eurofighter.
Just because a particular combat system belongs to your ally should not exclude it from inspiring your next generation combat system. At least if your design team had any brains.
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Originally posted by thrila
The first time i got called roast beef by a some french students i burst out laughing. We were in a mates car driving to cardiff and two of them were kicking the back of my seat chanting "roast beef! roast beef!":D
Limey has never bothered me either. Hmmm... maybe all those limes were the cause of my funky teeth through generations of lime sucking....
Curse you limes!!!!!!:mad:
The correct terminology is whiney poms. As in "look at the whiney poms going off at the ref again" ;)
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Do F-22s still have a flight control problem? There was a problem after flying in the wake of a F16 and a F-22 exceeded all of its stress limitations. This been fixed now?
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think it was a software problem , might well be fixed when microsoft release new patch:D
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It wasn't a problem with the flight controls. The aircrew over corrected when trying to recover the aircraft from the stall. When the system finally took over the controls and locked out the pilot the aircraft recovered fine.
I think there is an official report out there that you can read. It wasn't necessarily the aircrews fault. It happenend very quicly from what I understand. My squadron was flying chase when the incident happenend.
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Ah, that makes more sense. I just read it in the end of April edition of Flight International. It takes so long for this magazine to get round where I work!
I guess it's just one of those early teething problems, even the EF which I have dealings with have had many teething problems.
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Originally posted by Replicant
Ah, that makes more sense. I just read it in the end of April edition of Flight International. It takes so long for this magazine to get round where I work!
I guess it's just one of those early teething problems, even the EF which I have dealings with have had many teething problems.
It was just in the paper that the one that crashed recently had power failure. Seems that the aircrew didn't follow proper preflight procedure OR that the proper procedure wasn't in place yet.
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This is what Flight International wrote:
Flight International issue 15/2005
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Wake turbulence led to overstressing and $3.6 million-worth of damage to airframe
A flight control system flaw allowed a Lockheed Martin/Boeing F/A-22 Raptor to exceed its load factor limits, seriously overstressing the airframe, after encountering wake turbulence from the target aircraft during air-to-air tracking tests. Flight-control software is being modified following the 28 September incident.
The stealth fighter reached peaks of +10.1g and -11.7g, and angle of attack (AoA) exceeded -60°, during a divergent oscillation that lasted little more than 3s, says the US Air Force investigation report. The load-factor limits for the test configuration, with two external fuel tanks, are +7.33/-0.5g, and AoA is limited to +26/-10°.
The aircraft landed uneventfully after automatically recovering from the incident, but the cost of repairing damage to the airframe – which includes overstressing wing and fin roots to more than 170% of design limit load – is estimated at $3.6 million. The USAF has not decided whether to repair the F/A-22 – Raptor 4003, one of the early aircraft assigned to the development test fleet at Edwards AFB, California.
The F/A-22 crossed the wake vortex of the Lockheed Martin F-16 target aircraft while repositioning for an air-to-air tracking test at 8,500ft (2,600m) and 500kt (925km/h) to determine the fighter’s handling qualities with two external tanks. Triggered by the wake encounter, the fly-by-wire fighter began a divergent oscillation with increasing positive and negative pitch rates, load factors and AoAs.
Throughout the event, the Raptor’s horizontal stabilator was moving trailing-edge up and trailing-edge down at maximum rate, but was unable to stop the chain of events. The pilot’s control inputs – while appropriate for the sensed motion, investigators say – ended up 180° out of phase with g, and contributed to the oscillation’s severity.
When the aircraft exceeded -36° AoA, the flight-control system initiated an auto-recovery as programmed, disregarding the pilot’s inputs and commanding constant full trailing-edge up stabilator, and – roughly 8.5s after the upset – the Raptor recovered to 1g flight.
Multiple previous wake encounters had showed no divergent oscillation, but investigators concluded the flight-control system was deficient because, despite having AoA and g limiters, it allowed the aircraft to exceed those limits and placed the pilot in a situation he should not have encountered.
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Is this another way to describe over-steering? Sounds like what happens to lots of people when driving on wet/snow covered roads.
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Slinger from what I gathered on that last incident the aircrew ran the preflight BIT on the AFCS. He did as any crew would do during prelaunch procedures. Now why the rate sensors didn't fail during this test is odd.
On the F-15E if the rate gyros have a power interrupt the will virtually stop then spin back up. Typically if the aircrew tries to reaccomplish a BIT during this power interruption the rate gyros will fail. They have to wait approximately 2 minutes before they can rerun the BIT. If they don't wait the system will fail for the sensors since they are still spinning back up to speed. On the F-15E a failure from one of these sensors is considered a total no go of the AFCS. The resulting failure of the gyros will not allow their CAS to reengage which is a clear indication of a problem.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Slinger from what I gathered on that last incident the aircrew ran the preflight BIT on the AFCS. He did as any crew would do during prelaunch procedures. Now why the rate sensors didn't fail during this test is odd.
On the F-15E if the rate gyros have a power interrupt the will virtually stop then spin back up. Typically if the aircrew tries to reaccomplish a BIT during this power interruption the rate gyros will fail. They have to wait approximately 2 minutes before they can rerun the BIT. If they don't wait the system will fail for the sensors since they are still spinning back up to speed. On the F-15E a failure from one of these sensors is considered a total no go of the AFCS. The resulting failure of the gyros will not allow their CAS to reengage which is a clear indication of a problem.
what I read was that he crashed the computers (speaking in lamens of course) they had to shut the engines off and run Aux power on the jet. By doing so it screwed up the computers because he didn't reset them.
F/A-22 – Raptor 4003, one of the early aircraft assigned to the development test fleet at Edwards AFB, California.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl