Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on June 21, 2005, 03:52:35 AM
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This is from a UK website, so they haven't included the UK prices. I paid 90p/ltr for diesel on Saturday. :mad: UL95 is about 4p cheaper. I refuse to pay an extra 5p for "premium diesel", despite the lavish claims made by the fuel company about the wonders it would do for my engine. I go by the car handbook. I use whatever fuels and oils it tells me to, and I don't recall seeing anything about premium fuels.
Think about this chart before posting any gas price whine threads!
I edited this chart to show the countries where diesel costs more than petrol/gasoline/carburant - shown in blue. Taken from the May 2005 report. The columns on the right (UK pence) are easier to use when comparing different countries. Source: http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/fuelprice.jpg)
Diesel used to be cheaper to produce than petrol. It needed less crude oil and less refining. But that was in the days before vehicle emissions became an important issue. Diesels emit more particulates, so these days diesel must be further refined. I read that "California Diesel" costs about 4 cents more than in other states - probably because the fuel needs even further refinement to meet CA emissions standards.
Bio-diesel combustion releases a much smaller amount of particulates than hydrocarbon diesel - about 26% less.
One of Rudolph Diesel's early engines ran on peanut oil - the original bio-diesel.
I didn't know it until this week, but apparently R. Diesel topped himself by jumping overboard a ship. :(
I had an interesting discussion about all this on a UK board. My original post made the comparison between UK and European prices. The discussion swung to comparison between UK petrol/diesel prices. I clarified by pointing out that I was more interested in the comparison with European prices... and one guy accused me of "changing my argument". LOL - it was just like being in the O Club! Of course, he was wrong, and I proved it by self quoting a portion of my original post. I was waiting for the guy then to accuse me of "dodging"! If he had, I would have thought the board had been invaded by... erm... never mind.
:rofl
:aok
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Beetle, those prices are incorrect as far as Lux goes... I saw 1.24 this morning.
Something to keep in mind also: While it's 0.5/L in Latvia... they also make an average of 300€/month there compared to an average of 3000€/month here ... so even if the price is double, I bet they whine more and drive less than we do.
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$1.10 Ltr in the weekend here for unleaded...
Tronsky
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Saw - the figures shown are last month's figures. I believe they show the average, as not all retail outlets charge the same. For example there's a filling station I know of in Marlborough which charges around 10p more than I normally pay. I'm surprised they sell any at that price.
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Great! we are one of the biggest producers and we have the highest prices (xcept for unleaded were the dutch has us beat.
Oh well. Only costs 9329 pence to fill up my boat.. and I can use that in a day easy. Usually lasts me about a week tho.
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Beetle, you live near Marlborough? I almost got a job there 5 years ago... it's not too far from Swindon if I remember well. Great area to live in! :aok
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The price of diesel around here is generally the same as Unleaded Super (highest octane), but I think we're about the highest in the country for diesel in Oregon & Washington.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Something to keep in mind also: While it's 0.5/L in Latvia... they also make an average of 300€/month there compared to an average of 3000€/month here ... so even if the price is double, I bet they whine more and drive less than we do.
Yes, but tronski has since posted. I would think the average income in AUS is much higher than in Latvia. But Tronski's fuel price works out to 48p - lower than Latvia.
Yes, Marlborough near Swindon! Nice town, no riff-raff. I live about 45 mins drive from there. What was your job offer?
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Does the price stay constant?
I have seen the price change 3-4 times in one day, usually for the worst. High in the morning, going slightly lower after the rush hour, and then backup for the afternoon rush hour which is usually higher than the morning rush hour price.
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I've never seen price changes in a single day. From day to day, yes.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yes, Marlborough near Swindon! Nice town, no riff-raff. I live about 45 mins drive from there. What was your job offer?
I stayed in Swindon for over a year (NOT a nice town, hehe). The Job offer I had in Marlborough was for a small UPS company... didn't follow up on it as that's about when I got divorced... and fled England.
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Interesting figures, Beetle. I first thought the US data must be a decade old, having forgotten to multiply by roughly 4 to obtain cost per gallon, rather that litre. I think I just read that oil futures are now pushing $60/bbl.
One thing to keep in mind perhaps, is that in the US, real estate development is extremely "spread out" compared to Euro countries, with regard to where people live and work. Historically cheap gas prices enabled large bedroom subdivsions to spring up miles away from any businesses. I think the average commute time in my area is 45 minutes, which means people on average are living 15-20 miles away from where they work. Most of the newer, nicer subdivisions are the furthest out.
Typically, these subdivisions require miles of auto travel to accomplish any errand or task - going to the market, church, school, etc. Usually the closest business establishment is a combination self serve gas station/convenience store located at the junction of the nearest main roadway, but since the subdivisions generally don't include sidewalks or walking paths, you must drive there as well. Americans spend most of their waking hours at work, but the second largest chunk of time is spent in their vehicles rushing to and fro.
So even though gas is cheaper in the US than in Europe, we are probably more dependent on our cars than you are. It will take years of high fuel prices to begin to change the"spread out" real estate development mentality.
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Oboe is quite right. My wife commutes 30 miles in each direction. Right now, gas is at $2.30/gallon U.S. in our area. She has to fill up the tank about 3 1/2 times a month (Volvo S60 'non-turbo', 18 gallon tank) as most of her commute is in stop and go traffic.
So right now, just on her car, we are spending about $140.00 U.S. per month so she can get to/from work.
Without moving into downtown Dallas, it would be physically impossible to get closer to her job. And if we did, then my commute would be over 30 miles each direction.
How does that figure compare to your commute?
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oh but you guys haven't heard of the new EPA "save us from ourselves" scam yet?
I was informed that all my emergency diesel equipment would have to run on the new "ultra" diesel.. It will be mandatory by January for equiment and I belive that it will be the only diesel sold in a year here in California....
And as everyone knows... as the Peoples Republic of California blue state goes... so goes the rest of the blue places.
Ultra is about 90 cents a gallon more than current diesel.
lazs
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But Laz...if there was a REAL emergency... earthquake, forest fires, mudslides... taking out your power that keeps whatever water is still running clean and available.... you wouldn't want REGULAR OLD DIESEL doing that for the duration of the emergency, would you?
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emergency equipment is only the first step.. all of Kalifornia will be converted by the end of the next year..
anyone recall how "unleaded" got started and where?
lazs
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Oboe is quite right. My wife commutes 30 miles in each direction. Right now, gas is at $2.30/gallon U.S. in our area. She has to fill up the tank about 3 1/2 times a month (Volvo S60 'non-turbo', 18 gallon tank) as most of her commute is in stop and go traffic.
So right now, just on her car, we are spending about $140.00 U.S. per month so she can get to/from work.
Without moving into downtown Dallas, it would be physically impossible to get closer to her job. And if we did, then my commute would be over 30 miles each direction.
How does that figure compare to your commute?
for my wife : 10 minutes per day
for me : 3 hours per day when the SNCF is not on strike
When there is strike it's from 4 hours to never :(
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Straffo, since they are on strike at least 3 times a week... :eek:
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EPA diesel changes in 94 set up a price increase for large used trucks. The Volvo I have I bought in 94 before the major increase hit. There had already been a smaller one that raised the prices on used trucks by about $4,000 to $5,000 over the previous 6 months.
The reason is the newe emmissions standards that large diesels produced after the 94 mid production year have to meet. The industry isn't sure about the reliability of the new engines with the higher boost and temps they will have to run at. Right now my truck has appreciated over $10,000 from what I paid for it in the year and a half I've had it. Not bad but I'm not considering selling anyhow as that's how I tow our house around the country.
For those feeling the "pinch" at the pumps. I feel your pain. My tanks hold 300 gallons. Of course I get about 2,000 miles befroe I start looking seriously for fuel. I also look on the web for fuel prices and we plan our route accordingly if there is a good buy near to where we want to go. At this time I don't let the tanks get low as I want to fill up at half way. I like having at least 1,000 miles worth of fuel in the tanks if prices spike dramatically. We also have started staying longer at places instead of moving every 3 or 4 days and we use my bike to do all our looking around. This lets the truck sit and conserve the diesel. It's acase of 40 MPG vs 9 MPG (avg).
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
How does that figure compare to your commute?
6 miles each way in a honda civic :)
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I have seen the price change 3-4 times in one day, usually for the worst. High in the morning, going slightly lower after the rush hour, and then backup for the afternoon rush hour which is usually higher than the morning rush hour price.
A sophisticated marketing operation can conduct day-part pricing. But you have to be heavy into technology to facilitate multiple price changes automatically from the central office (labor quality issues at the site tend to cause problems otherwise) and it helps to use some sophisticated price modeling tools so you remain at an effective price point throughout the day and don't lose volume to your competition. No statistics, but I bet fairly few operations do this today.
As for ultra low sulfur diesel... going to be an interesting couple of years coming up. A lot of potential supply issues, a lot of potential and currently unresolved liability over the wrong fuel getting into one of the new vehicles... an interesting couple of years. Big oil got ***** slapped by big auto on this one.
Charon
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Actually Charon I saw this only a month or two ago.
It does not matter what one does, the others, ie ESSO, Shell, PetroCan, Sunoco, etc, all put their price changes up within minutes of each other and all are the same.
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As far as feeling the pinch at the pumps, I am guessing here but I think most people probably do like I do, and buy gas on a oil company credit card. Since we don't pay cash out of our pockets for fuel anymore, the effect of a large price increase can be spread out. Its still going to hurt the family budget in the long run (maybe even break it) but like anything else, the fact that you can borrow money to pay puts off the day of reckoning.
I think has to be part of the reason large fuel price increases haven't drastically curtailed consumer spending in other areas. It might be interesting to see how the average monthly balance carried on oil company credit has changed over the last year or so.
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Originally posted by oboe
One thing to keep in mind perhaps, is that in the US, real estate development is extremely "spread out" compared to Euro countries, with regard to where people live and work.
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So even though gas is cheaper in the US than in Europe, we are probably more dependent on our cars than you are. It will take years of high fuel prices to begin to change the"spread out" real estate development mentality.
Yes, I quite understand that, which is why I find it surprising that the average mileage for a US car is 12,500 (source: US EPA http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f00013.htm) . That's a little more than the British average annual mileage, but not by much.
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Actually Charon I saw this only a month or two ago.
What's going to be interesting over time is the new diesel sulfur regs. Day-part pricing is a fairly old concept.
Charon
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yes, I quite understand that, which is why I find it surprising that the average mileage for a US car is 12,500 (source: US EPA http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f00013.htm) . That's a little more than the British average annual mileage, but not by much.
I think the answer to that may be the number of 2 and 3 vehicle families. Typically each adult in the household has their own vehicle to get to and from work. Sometimes even the teenagers have their own car.
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Originally posted by oboe
I think the answer to that may be the number of 2 and 3 vehicle families. Typically each adult in the household has their own vehicle to get to and from work. Sometimes even the teenagers have their own car.
That's pretty much the norm here too.
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Skuzzy my wife commutes about the same as yours and we still pay more per litre! My commute is 12 miles accross city! 24 there and back.
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Originally posted by beet1e
That's pretty much the norm here too.
Hmmm. Well then I haven't got an answer for you, I guess. Seems like with more expensive petrol and a better mass transit/public transportation system, the British would drive quite a bit less per year then US drivers do.
I'm stumped.
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I commute 20 km's each way per day. I switched to diesel last year, ~30% increase in mileage, ~20% cheaper to buy than petrol.
I worked out my diesel is costing around NZ$1.10 per litre including Road User Charges. (We pay between 80-85c NZ at the pump, plus RUC's of $166 for 5000km).
NZ$1.10 = ~US$0.77
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
How does that figure compare to your commute?
32 miles each way for me and my wife (we car pool) in a Honda CR-V or Civic (we switch cars every other month).
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yes, I quite understand that, which is why I find it surprising that the average mileage for a US car is 12,500 (source: US EPA http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f00013.htm) . That's a little more than the British average annual mileage, but not by much.
that "average" has not changed in 20 years, and is total BS.
i have "averaged" over 27,000 / year in my 15 years of owning a car... topping out at 32,000 one year.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
Skuzzy my wife commutes about the same as yours and we still pay more per litre! My commute is 12 miles accross city! 24 there and back.
his wife commutes 30 one way he said, 60 round trip, almost triple your 24
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Originally posted by lazs2
emergency equipment is only the first step.. all of Kalifornia will be converted by the end of the next year..
anyone recall how "unleaded" got started and where?
lazs
Anyone recall what the air in Southern California used to look like 40 years afgo?
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the air down south has defnlty improved from what i used to see visually
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I filled up today for $1.98 per gallon.
Edit: JB, the fact is that the averages are about the same, it just means you drive more than average. I put about 19,000 miles on two cars (combined) a year.
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OT: Anybody here live in corn country and fill up with E-85 (85% ethanol) in one of those flex fuel vehicles?
Charon
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Originally posted by oboe
I'm stumped.
About $0.75 per gallon over here is pure tax, perhaps the Eurogovs are taking a bigger bite per tank, and the price deltas are thus not affected by market forces as logic would predict?
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Originally posted by Charon
OT: Anybody here live in corn country and fill up with E-85 (85% ethanol) in one of those flex fuel vehicles?
Charon
One of the guys I trade with has one, a 2004 Yukon, said his milage went down 2 to 3 mpg but the price spread is usually about 50 cents. KC has many Govt. jobs so there are 3 or 4 places you can get EA 85 in town so thats not an issue.
I have been looking into it.
One of the ethonal plants I trade with told me they have been burning 100% in their company trucks and cars with no issue.
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Ethanol isnt a viable answer, it takes more energy to produce ethanol than the end product provides.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
Ethanol isnt a viable answer, it takes more energy to produce ethanol than the end product provides.
Ethanol is a crock too.
it eats through the wire sheilds in the fuel injectors, destroying them prematurely, and in the process actually kiling MPG before the injectors show signs of damage. ask any mechanic in an area with mandated "reformulated" gas to show you.
i have watched friends replace injectore 3 times on cars here, all becaus of reformulated gas 1000% positive
the high acidic and alcohol content of it is too strong for injectors made before 2000, and that is like 80% of the cars on the road.
oh and edbert, see you proved my point. they use the average of those vehicles, seperate NOT you driving 19K / year.
if they went by driver not car, that number would be a ton higher. yet those guys with a classic collector car and only put 1000 miles in the summer on them, that counts towards the average. it is considered it's own entity not the person who puts 20k on a work vehicle, 8k on a commuter, and 2k on a classic car.
look at the average of that. i have one of my best friends who drives a van for work. commutes about 25 miles round trip, puts on like 15k a year on his car, puts over 25k on the work van, then puts maybe 1-2k TOPS on his 55 ford.
25k+15k+2k=42k / 3 =14k (close to the "average") but as a person driving he puts 42k a year.