Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StarOfAfrica2 on June 21, 2005, 07:02:58 PM
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Over the weekend our shooting club participated in an island-wide shooting sports fair. Had a blast teaching people to shoot and trying out other folks' guns. During some of the downtime, I had a chance to get to know some of the older guys better. One of them at my end that also shoots black powder was talking history and shared some stories from his time as an "advisor" in the early 60s in Vietnam. This caught my eye from the article describing the visit of the Vietnamese leader here with Mr. Bush, describing one of the things they hope to increase with better relations between our countries.
After his discussions with Bush, Khai planned to meet with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Military ties between the two countries have included periodic docking of U.S. warships in Vietnam and plans for U.S. military training of Vietnamese officers. Intelligence sharing and cooperation on counterterrorism activities also are part of the mix.
Khai told the Washington Post in an interview before leaving Hanoi that the two countries will announce Vietnam’s modest new participation in the Pentagon’s International Military Education and Training program.
Aint that a kicker? lol
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Aint that a kicker? lol
Especially after USSR... Sorry, RF, withdrew and refused to use a naval base at Kamrang, a harbor first used by frigate "Pallada" in 1850-s, then by the Second Pacific Task Force in 1905, and then, built on Soviet money - a base for our Pacific Fleet.
Sailors from Pallada and then from "2nd Pacific" battleships said that Vietnam is a paradise on Earth.
Hangtime and other Vietnam vets - don't you think so?...
Sorry for a provocational question ;)
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Star that did catch my eye. I also read that the US is Vietnam's biggest trading parting, somehting like 9.6 billion a year both ways.
This is interesting that former enemys open up this way. I can't speak for vets or anything but to me it may look like a bright partnership. I know alot of vets would talk about old wounds and such but like I said I can't speak for them.
Port call in NAM, bet the navy/USMC would have a good time with that! :aok
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Port call in NAM, bet the navy/USMC would have a good time with that! :aok
...and then, three days later, they'll be standing in the sick call line. ;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
This is interesting that former enemys open up this way. I can't speak for vets or anything but to me it may look like a bright partnership. I know alot of vets would talk about old wounds and such but like I said I can't speak for them.
Japanese electronics and cars, German cars, Vietnamese everything...
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Originally posted by Sandman
...and then, three days later, they'll be standing in the sick call line. ;)
"doc it hurts when I pee"
Marines call this "getting your bore punched"
For those that don't get it, when you clean a rifle you run a rod attached to a cloth down the bore of the rifle. It's usually really hard to pull through
sorry for the hijack, carry on!
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borada, did you guys land any men on the moon?
Ok then, we get nam ;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Star that did catch my eye. I also read that the US is Vietnam's biggest trading parting, somehting like 9.6 billion a year both ways.
This is interesting that former enemys open up this way. I can't speak for vets or anything but to me it may look like a bright partnership. I know alot of vets would talk about old wounds and such but like I said I can't speak for them.
Port call in NAM, bet the navy/USMC would have a good time with that! :aok
Apparently they want alot more than 9.6 billion a year. They want a spot in the WTO (and Bush is willing to sponsor them) and have agreed to relax rules on religious freedoms in Vietnam in exchange. They are also stepping up efforts to track down records for all those still MIA (I'm sure some of them will be "doctored", but maybe we will at least get the remains and close the files).
I have to say, ever since Clinton opened things up 10 years ago with the Vietnamese, they have really softened up. The days of hardcore Communism apparently didnt pay off for them economically, and they want a piece of the pie. And they figured out that becoming more "democratic" and brown-nosing the US is a good way to get rich quick. I still dont think I'd trust any of them. Friends you have to pay for dont stay friends long when things get tough.
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I'm sure the VC hold no grudges. I bet they would welcome uniformed American sailors and Marines on liberty with open arms.
WTF does Vietnam have that we want?
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Originally posted by rpm
WTF does Vietnam have that we want?
A border with China.
The US wants to put the brakes on China's growing influence in the region, hence the sucking-up to Vietnam.
Excel
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deleted - rule #5
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Mr Coffee, nurse is looking for you, your meds are due. There's a good boy.;)
I was in Vietnam in April. Talking to people there. I got the definite impression that they fear China and it's ambitions. China is in fact their traditional enemy going back many generations. Several people mentioned opening up Camh Ranh Bay naval base to the US Navy. I was amazed. The US Navy already visits so US sailors and presumably Marines have already had shore leave in Vietnam.
There was no detectable anti Americanism there that I could find. Quite the opposite in fact.
It's a country on the way up. As you drive through the countryside you see lots of poverty for sure. But you see lots of signs of people improving their lives. New houses being built, factories going up. There's still a lack of freedom though.
It is definitely a beautiful country and as I'm sure any vet will tell you so are the women. As Boroda says some of it is a paradise on Earth. It would definitely a popular port of call for the US Navy.
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why would they fear china? Isn't china a commie country and didn't it help the north fight us and then defeat the south when we abandoned them?
lazs
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Lazs, China has been invading Vietnam since its early dynasties. There's a couple thousand years of experience of that happening.
asw
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Didnt China invade in the late 70s and get their rears kicked?
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""The days of hardcore Communism apparently didnt pay off for them economically""
hey, i was gona say that.
what does vietnam have? offshore oil.
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I'm not sure if Lazs is being serious;) While China did help to some degree. The Soviet Union was the real ally of Vietnam. It was explained to me there that Chinese visitors have very restricted visas. Then can only stay a few days and are not allowed to fly in and out. There is a strong anti Chinese attitude there. I was shown an area which was once predominantly ethnic Chinese. Most were driven out by the Communists. Many of the boat people were ethnic Chinese.
Remember in 1979 the Chinese invaded part of the North in a punitive expedition but were bloodily repulsed. As it was explained to me the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in the 70's was as much to do with the fear that China wanted to bring Cambodia in as some form of province. The Khymer Rouge had a lot of help from China. Even now the King of Cambodia spends a lot of time in Bejing. It was said to me that China would like to make Vietnam a new province.
In Cambodia I was told that much of what was South Vietnam around the Mekong Delta including Saigon was until the 1940's actually part of the Cambodia. The French of course got the blame for that too.
Look at the map. They have China to the north with designs on offshore islands, possibly with oil and Cambodia to the west, who feel much of Southern Vietnam is rightfully theirs. So you can see where they're worries are. The Soviet Union is gone and so is any protection they might have had.
Hence they look to the USA. In an ironic way, maybe America can finally win the war in Vietnam.
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Trade between the US and Vietnam is almost non-existant.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5520.html
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Very touchy subject in this house...
as an ex- serviceman that is utterly convinced the communist government did not release or account for all our POW's I'm enraged by any 'normalization' with their government.
hence, I am less than charmed by politicians that have swept under the rug the POW/MIA reports to further normalization.
Lastly, WTF is the real deal here? We defended the south against communist invaders, then checked out; leaving the south to fend for itself... albiet with a massive amount of our tax dollars and equipment. The commies took over anyway.
Now the commies that run the place got the scrotal contents to beg us to bankroll 'em & protect THEM from more commies up north?
..and Washington is sniffing at the bait? What an incredible insult to those that fell.. incredible.
The hell with that..
Let us know when the Chinese have finished with the place... good time to call would be when Mandarin is the national language of Australia.
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I understand your anger man. I have several friends who served in Vietnam and none of them are happy either. And understanding their anger, and yours, I still have to say we have alot to gain by working with Vietnam. They are buying planes from us to build up their air industry. They signed deals with Motorola to improve their cell phone network and bring more american businesses in to provide more of a market. They met with Bill Gates and made deals to crack down on software piracy and pass laws to better prosecute authors of viruses. Improved access in Vietnam means more of those MIA cases are going to be solved and closed. Another ally in Asia can only help our position with China and North Korea. Access to oil reserves in the area wouldnt hurt either. The more they succeed from working with us, the less they will need to rely on the threats of Communist power to keep people in line, and the more they will begin to enjoy the fruits of a free economy. Entrance into the WTO can only improve things for them all the way around. Plus, the Vietnamese dont have the same acrimony for the Japanese that complicate matters with Korea and China in our dealings with them. Balance is desperately needed in that region, and a friendly Vietnam can really help provide that.
I can understand if you cant bring yourself to support it. But I think it's necessary, and in the long run isnt it better than the alternative?
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The more they succeed from working with us, the less they will need to rely on the threats of Communist power to keep people in line, and the more they will begin to enjoy the fruits of a free economy.
As a person from a country that worked with the US in the 90s and is supposed to "enjoy the fruits of a free economy" - I only can say that this "free economy" means starvation for the majority of the population, while people who were in power in Soviet times get even more power and money. At our expence.
To Hang: It seems to me that majority of Vietnamese people feel something like you when their government starts to "cooperate" with US. It's an interesting question, I'll ask Vietnamese people about it next time I'll go to a Vietnamese marketplace, but the problem is that usually they almost don't speak Russian, except for 5-10 phrases nessesary to sell jeans and sweaters.
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the war has been over for a long time, most of the vietnamese worn't even born when the war was going on.
time to move on, or do you still hate the germans, japanese, british and the barbery pirates?
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Originally posted by Excel1
A border with China.
The US wants to put the brakes on China's growing influence in the region, hence the sucking-up to Vietnam.
Excel
Dont forget that they have very cheap working class in Vietnam.
Nike produce many things in that Communist country, so you can fell like an cool boy, while you wear those supercool emrekan [made by commies] shoes. :cool:
Anyway it seems to me that commies are not bad anymore and it seems to be official point of view in US.
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I know, Iknow.. but I refuse to kow-tow to PC bullpucky.
Item: We're supoosed ta be China's biggest trading 'partner'.
Item: How's that fit with 'supporting' Vietnam against 'Chinese Aggression'?
Item: We've already made Taiwan's position damn near untenable.. you think Vietnam would get a 'better' deal from us than Taiwan did?
Item: It's now PC to sell honor and sacrafice down the river for a few corporate mega bucks?
I'm freakin ashamed to be an American on some days. (And I've never bought anything with a Nike label on it, Lada.)
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In many ways you are right hangtime. But as someone said most Vietnamese weren't even born when the war was on.
I came away from the country with the impression that the worst thing that happened to the Vietnamese was 'winning' the war. They are not natural communists. They want what all of us want. A better life for them and their children.
I was there for the thirtieth anniversary of the war. I detected more than a degree of cynicism from the people I met about the celebration. I commented to a guide that Vietnam would be much different country in ten years time for the fortieth anniversary. He agreed and said they it probably wouldn't be 'celebrated' in the same way.
More like commemorated. They won the war but lost the peace.
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Originally posted by Boroda
As a person from a country that worked with the US in the 90s and is supposed to "enjoy the fruits of a free economy" - I only can say that this "free economy" means starvation for the majority of the population, while people who were in power in Soviet times get even more power and money. At our expence.
That doesnt exactly make the average Joe over here happy Boroda. But I'm not really sure that any of us thought your road to change would be easy. One thing I am sure of is that no one I've talked to has any easy answers for you. It is a cause for concern to us (at least it is to me), how Russia and all the other former members of the USSR do economically, but I certainly don't know how to make things better. I wish I did.
To Hang: It seems to me that majority of Vietnamese people feel something like you when their government starts to "cooperate" with US. It's an interesting question, I'll ask Vietnamese people about it next time I'll go to a Vietnamese marketplace, but the problem is that usually they almost don't speak Russian, except for 5-10 phrases nessesary to sell jeans and sweaters.
Perhaps I'm in a unique position here, because Hawaii sees so much more traffic from asian countries than the rest of the US. I'm not sure what the rate is of asian visitors to European nations is, so I cant comment on that perspective. What I see here are the economic trade meetings, tourists, and asian families who move to Hawaii because it seems to be a "mid-point" for those wanting to become American, in more ways than just geographically. Asian culture is very much integrated into the local social structure here. We are one of only 2 US states with direct trade offices in China. Japanese and Korean tourists outnumber those from the mainland US. Vietnamese tourists are on the rise, and heavily encouraged. There are more Filipinos living in Hawaii than anywhere outside the Philippines. That, and most airline traffic going between the US and Asia routes through Hawaii. All of those cultures are represented heavily in our population. I'm no expert on any Asian culture, especially Vietnamese. But I do know several Vietnamese people, and I see the representation in the local news of relations with that country. I see no signs of animosity (in general at least) towards Americans.
Last week many of the "babylift" evacuees returned to Vietnam, some for the first time. They were welcomed by officials, flown over in planes painted to match the colors worn in the 70s, basically had a very big production made over them by the Vietnamese people. That wasnt all govt. hoopla. There was alot of pain and bitterness generated in those two decades of our involvement in Vietnam, and there is some of it that will never truly be healed for generations. And I think there are some people in the Vietnamese govt right now that are little better than snakes. But someone has to start somewhere, no matter what the motivations were for the door being opened. Now that it is, we need to take advantage of it.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Item: It's now PC to sell honor and sacrafice down the river for a few corporate mega bucks?
Hang, I am horribly sorry to say it, but, unfortunately this was the real reason for your fighting :(
It's a wonderful world of capitalism (c) Kinks, "Preservation, Act I".
Originally posted by Hangtime
I'm freakin ashamed to be an American on some days. (And I've never bought anything with a Nike label on it, Lada.)
Hang, I don't see anything to be ashamed of.
When You say such things - I start to believe that your nation indeed goes by the route we went in last 20 years :( Just like Miko2d or Genozaur said :( Destruction and defeat starts in minds :(
It's sad and funny that in fact both of us see one enemy from different sides of what used to be a gunsight :(
Both of our countries were built on some idealistic unreal concepts, that we still need to keep alive, to survive and not to surrender. Money, profit and political "common sence" are not the most important things. Especially for a nation that now carries "white men's burden" alone.
Sorry for being too pathetic.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
It is a cause for concern to us (at least it is to me), how Russia and all the other former members of the USSR do economically, but I certainly don't know how to make things better. I wish I did.
Unfortunately - you are one of the few people who understands it and doesn't start teaching us :( Listening to that loosers resulted in a collapse of 1998...
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Vietnamese tourists are on the rise, and heavily encouraged.
[...]
I see no signs of animosity (in general at least) towards Americans.
The problem is that you see rich Vietnamese, who found their way to integrate into a "brave new world", while I see poor, almost starving people working for food and accomodation at market-places and construction grounds :( Vietnamese community here is probably the most isolated because of language problems, they live in dorms with something like 2-3 square meters per person...
As for "30 years already passed since the war ended" - it's easy for you, Americans, to make conclusions, because you didn't have wars on your land for 150 years. I still take stories from War times very personally. Like my Grandmother describing German bombing of Belorussian railway station... Or my Father who told me how to distinguish Soviet airplanes from German bombers by the sound.
NB: maybe the last paragraph is only another stereotype at work, I don't know.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hang, I am horribly sorry to say it, but, unfortunately this was the real reason for your fighting :(
Possibly.. didn't seem like it to me. I know why I served.. and it wasn't to make some corporate junta rich.
Originally posted by Boroda
Hang, I don't see anything to be ashamed of.
I do. 'Business as usual politics' and slimy goverment is something I'm gettin mighty fed up with. I don't give a good gawdamn which party is in power.. an honest government would be a novel change.
Originally posted by Boroda
When You say such things - I start to believe that your nation indeed goes by the route we went in last 20 years :( Just like Miko2d or Genozaur said :( Destruction and defeat starts in minds :(
I doubt were quite ready to fold the pup tent and sign on with the Warsaw Pact. I think most americans are sick and tired of extremest politics and sham deals with pinhead potentates. Change is due.. 3 more years of the current crew in office will likely assure some swing of the pendulum back towards the center in the next election cycle. Meanwhile, if I sound bitter, it's only because I am.
Our kids are in harms way, our goverment is selling a pile of dreck, and international threats are getting a gloss over... far as I'm concerned, the current goverments credibility in forigin affairs is blown, the tax code is a wreck and internationl trade 'deals' are gonna put our economy and defense industry in the toilet (or china's hip pocket) if this keeps up.
Dammit!
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Originally posted by Boroda
The problem is that you see rich Vietnamese, who found their way to integrate into a "brave new world", while I see poor, almost starving people working for food and accomodation at market-places and construction grounds :( Vietnamese community here is probably the most isolated because of language problems, they live in dorms with something like 2-3 square meters per person...
Your right. If anyone had told me even 5 years ago that I would be living in Hawaii right now I'd have laughed in their face and called them crazy. And knowing what it costs tourists to come here, I'm sure the visitors we have are above average in income. The ones in the lowest echelons of the social order will likely never be tourists anywhere. The same is true in America of course. But everyone gets a chance to break out. Some take it and some dont. The chances may come more for Americans than Vietnamese, but then thats one of the things that has always attracted people of other nations to come here. It's the American Dream. My hope is that as things improve for Vietnam, it will improve all the way down the chain. That may be a pipe dream.
As for "30 years already passed since the war ended" - it's easy for you, Americans, to make conclusions, because you didn't have wars on your land for 150 years. I still take stories from War times very personally. Like my Grandmother describing German bombing of Belorussian railway station... Or my Father who told me how to distinguish Soviet airplanes from German bombers by the sound.
NB: maybe the last paragraph is only another stereotype at work, I don't know.
Thats true. I cannot, in my relatively sheltered existence, imagine what it would be like to live in a country torn apart by war and grow up in the aftermath. While my grandfather also served in WWII, and I occasionally heard some stories from him, they were not stories about fighting foreign troops from the grocery store down on the corner. They were stories of a far off country with exotic names. I can never understand a POV I havent experienced.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
But everyone gets a chance to break out. Some take it and some dont. The chances may come more for Americans than Vietnamese, but then thats one of the things that has always attracted people of other nations to come here. It's the American Dream.
Skipped most of the post that I agree with.
Believe me - USSR was a true implementation of what is known as "American Dream". My Grandfather, a son of a Ukrainian village blacksmith, became a rocket-artillery officer. Less then 10 years after leaving his village, in 1941, he handled the "most horrible weapon invented by mankind", BM-13 "Katyusha", and after the War he commanded a portable missile and warhead base in East Germany. In any other country he probably had a chance to become a village leader, nothing more, especially in Russian Empire, that had only 2% of population working in industry, and less then 10% of literate people.
In any society that has no "caste" structure like Hindus there is a chance to "break out". Sorry, but it's not an "American dream" but an "American illusion". Another propaganda victory :( Some societies encourage and support this "break-outs", like Soviet system, simply because it's a matter of survival, not competition where people on top have an advantage.
OTOH Russia lost it's bravest, most energetic people in GPW, like Vietnam, that lost them minesweeping Haifon harbor on kamikaze motorboats... In this field you may have an adbantage and we can't oppose you.
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Originally posted by lada
Dont forget that they have very cheap working class in Vietnam.
Nike produce many things in that Communist country, so you can fell like an cool boy, while you wear those supercool emrekan [made by commies] shoes. :cool:
Anyway it seems to me that commies are not bad anymore and it seems to be official point of view in US.
I dont wear nikes or any other chic label shoes or clothing. I didn't know it was suppose to be cool to wear that kind of stuff. I
thought it was just a phase that teeny boppers or Eastern Europeans went through.
I don't beleve the US has eased up on communism by showing a renewed interest in Vietnam. Vietnam is an oppotunity not a threat. Closer relations with Vietnam maybe useful in helping to put the squeeze on the communist party in China. And China seems to be increasinly where US foreign policy is focussed these days.
Imo it's a good move.
Excel
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Originally posted by Excel1
I don't beleve the US has eased up on communism by showing a renewed interest in Vietnam. Vietnam is an oppotunity not a threat. Closer relations with Vietnam maybe useful in helping to put the squeeze on the communist party in China. And China seems to be increasinly where US foreign policy is focussed these days.
Imo it's a good move.
OOhhhhh... communism is bad ok ??... Ok... because communism is baad, we have to be aware of China.. because China is dangerous .. yeess ? .. yesss..
So we will establish friendship with commies in Vietnam so we can fight commies in China ... Ohhh ... that make sense. What a brilian democratic idea.
Anyway i agree with you, that speak with someone and make bussines with someone is much better way to achieve some change in society that throw bombs on him or put zillion of sanctions on them.
Dammm... i forget it all the time... Im sorry i forget that the only people around the globe who are interesting in their "Image" are East europians.... Of course.... it make sense, coz they are almost exclusive producent of child porn :rofl
(http://www.ratiskovskadolina.kvalitne.cz/foto/px.jpg)
btw do you think, that China is great danger for NZ, as some emrekan ppl here ?
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here's how it works... if your country has to have fences and guards to keep people in..
It's Baaaaaaad. If you think you might dissapear in the middle of the night and everyone will pretend you never existed.... it's baaaad.
If the only products you can buy are poorly made local ones... it's baaad.
If you can't reasonably expect to own your own home.....
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
here's how it works... if your country has to have fences and guards to keep people in..
It's Mexico?
If you think you might dissapear in the middle of the night and everyone will pretend you never existed....
You were Darin on Bewitched?
If the only products you can buy are poorly made local ones...
You spend too much time at the flea market?
If you can't reasonably expect to own your own home.....
You might be a redneck?
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yep... either all of those things or...
you simply live in a commie country.
lazs
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"Believe me - USSR was a true implementation of what is known as "American Dream". My Grandfather, a son of a Ukrainian village blacksmith, became a rocket-artillery officer. Less then 10 years after leaving his village, in 1941, he handled the "most horrible weapon invented by mankind", BM-13 "Katyusha", and after the War he commanded a portable missile and warhead base in East Germany. In any other country he probably had a chance to become a village leader, nothing more,"
You might be right there!
Boroda the "American dream" is just one of those things that looks good on paper or in a soundbite but just doesn't realy exist! Its a figment of their propaganda! ;)
If it isn't American it isn't worth anything!
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Originally posted by lada
btw do you think, that China is great danger for NZ, as some emrekan ppl here ?
As long as China is run by paranoid totalitarian goons it's going to be a threat to NZ and any other country that opposses it's form of government. It may be relativly benign and insular now, but China is going to get big ugly and mean when it's economic and military capabilities are large enough for it to justify the protection of it's 'interests'. I give it 10 to 20 years. If internal dissent and outside pressure and aggitation causes the communist party to throw in the towel like the Soviets did so much the better it would probably prevent cold war 2.
Thats what I think. And apparently US policy with regards to China is similar. Future proofing; 'why put of 'till tomorrow what you can do today'. The job is only going get harder tomorrow cause the other guy is going to be that much more stronger.
Excel