Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Happy1 on June 26, 2005, 08:37:04 PM
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I'm tooling around happily at 12 angels, with 2 scalps 2b painted
on my a/c when I spot a P38L @ 14 angels, AHAAAAAHHHHH another quick kill 4 me, I nose dwn to gather speed, trim a/c to
Combat Trim & off I go zooming up to merge (destroy .. lol.. total
confidence). The 38 sees me & is diving on me .. HOOOO HAAAA!
As we merge I cut throttle & reverse on the 38 accelerating on his 6, distance is 800yds. I c a flashing under his wings, he's using his flaps, I hit UP trim & we r in Immelman Loop... trim up..
unable to get guns on him ... :( so close yet so far, after the 4th
loop he's looping endlessly whilst my E is dangerously low ... the
38 driver's good, now I'm looking for ways to get AWAY from him!
At the bottom of this loop I accelerate, hit UP trim many times, my
finger's sore, I glance back & he's 400 yds away from me with MGs
flying past me .... drat!! Forgot about the 38's 'Dive Brakes' :(
he outmaneuvered me, he's outflown me, his 38L dirty tricks are
working like a charm.
I'm in trouble plenty...broke to the right...darn...38s have no torque & then I hear ping ... ping .... BOOOOOMM! I'm back in the tower & I get a from the 38 which I return ... unfortunate-
ly I forgot to film this fight :o The 38 driver was very good
How would the experienced Spit9 drivers & P38 drivers handle such a situation, what tactics would the spit9 drivers utilize ?? Likewise the 38 fliers? How would u handle the scenario in a different manner.
Recommendations/suggestions/critiques/ are invited ...help me!
Cheers,
Happy1 :D
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Any p38 will out "loop" a spit 9. Next time try keeping energy by trying to turn on the horizontal axis to catch him on the down loop. Good luck
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Other than a sewer side bomber, I never look forward to meeting a p38 with a spit9, escpecially if they have alt. I think a climbing spiral still works against a 38, but you gota be very very careful. They can fake flopping and pull nose up on you.
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In AW, the trick to beating p38 with a spit was for the spit to get the 38 to about equal speed- In AW you could do this by diving as the p38 would compress and slow down. Then the spit would do horizontal turns with nose over horizon (such as a spiral climb). The p38's advantage was dropping flaps and putting nose below horizon. I dunno if its the same here.
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Don't forget that P38's start to come apart at 450 mph.
If You're really in it deep, get out, get some alt again and come back. Worst case scenario is you extending a few times.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Don't forget that P38's start to come apart at 450 mph.
That's just plain nonsense. I have seen 590 mph in a dive flying the P-38 and suffers no damage whatsoever. I have dive tested it from 40k.. at 590 I hit auto-level and it pulled out with any damage. Try that in a Spitfire and the wings will likely go bye-bye.
Yeah, it buffets and shake like a wet dog, but you can't break it.
Someone suggested spiral climbing to escape a P-38. You may be successful against a P-38G, but the J and L outclimb the SpitIX. Spiral climbing against the J or L is like hanging out a "shoot me" sign. If you find a P-38 close on your six, you've already humped the monkey. Getting it off will be extremely difficult.
Anyone interested in trying their theories can log into the TA Thursday and Friday evening between 8 and 10 pm eastern. I'm the designated target on those nights.
My regards,
Widewing
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^^^What widewing said.
I've yet to see any damage in a 38 from high speed dives. Often times I'll force it to stay in a drive with trim and pull out of a dive with trim.
Once you figure out and get the hang of flying the 38 with trim at high speeds its a monster and can stick with almost anything in a dive.
Nothing comes apart in a dive on the 38.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Someone suggested spiral climbing to escape a P-38. You may be successful against a P-38G, but the J and L outclimb the SpitIX. Spiral climbing against the J or L is like hanging out a "shoot me" sign. If you find a P-38 close on your six, you've already humped the monkey. Getting it off will be extremely difficult.
My regards,
Widewing
In AW, the Spitfire Mk IX was way over modeled and it could out climb and out run the P-38Jat all altitudes. So it was a common Spitfire tactic for them to use a spiral climb against a P-38Jsince the P-38J as under and in some parts incorrectly modeled (AW's P-38J had dive brakes instead of dive flaps).
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Widewing
That's just plain nonsense. I have seen 590 mph in a dive flying the P-38 and suffers no damage whatsoever. I have dive tested it from 40k.. at 590 I hit auto-level and it pulled out with any damage. Try that in a Spitfire and the wings will likely go bye-bye.
Yeah, it buffets and shake like a wet dog, but you can't break it.
My regards,
Widewing
Not exactly true. I have ripped off my wings on two occasions in AH1 and AH2. Both times I was in a P-38L fully loaded with 100% fuel and full ordnance load (2 1k eggs and 10 HVARS) and went into a high speed dive and snapped the elevators off as soon as the G needle went a hair over 6Gs. I also had the Lightning going about 525mph IAS too.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Not exactly true. I have ripped off my wings on two occasions in AH1 and AH2. Both times I was in a P-38L fully loaded with 100% fuel and full ordnance load (2 1k eggs and 10 HVARS) and went into a high speed dive and snapped the elevators off as soon as the G needle went a hair over 6Gs. I also had the Lightning going about 525mph IAS too.
ack-ack
Okay. However, a P-38 involved in a dogfight will be clean and a clean P-38 will not come apart at any speed it can attain.
As for me, I never fly a P-38 with more than 75% gas or more than 50% with full ordnance. If I must fly a long way, I'll take a drop tank and one 1k bomb. As a general rule, I never take more ordnance than I can deliver on a single pass, unless I'm defending against a ground attack.
My regards,
Widewing
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In H2H an arena host once turned on an upward 127mph wind and everyone went up. The P38L is my main ride and of course that is what I was in, by the time I get to 80k (thats right) the host cut off the wind, I decided I would experiment with the 38 and dove straight down, full throttle, no dive flaps. It kind of leveled off speed around 600mph, around 7k I decided it's time to get out of the dive and barely tapped up the trim and it came out of the dive at about 4k.
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Gee another example of Uber Allied FMs. What a surprise. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by JB42
Gee another example of Uber Allied FMs. What a surprise. :rolleyes:
lol yeah, american patriotism:lol
its gonna be like that with most games tho, most americans believe the war started in '41, and of course it did for you guys, but it was going on 2 years before that aswell you know:rolleyes:
anywho, endless ramblings of a silly brit :)
oh, btw, i was watching the extra features on the battle of britain dvd, and they had a featurette mith michael caine. they interviewed 20 americans outside the american embassy, 17 of which thought that the americans won the battle of britain, and that the english failed :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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lol yeah, american patriotism:lol
its gonna be like that with most games tho, most americans believe the war started in '41, and of course it did for you guys, but it was going on 2 years before that aswell you know:rolleyes:
anywho, endless ramblings of a silly brit :)
oh, btw, i was watching the extra features on the battle of britain dvd, and they had a featurette with michael caine. they interviewed 20 americans outside the american embassy, 17 of which thought that the americans won the battle of britain, and that the english failed :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl [/B][/QUOTE]
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WTF??? somethings going wrong there ^
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Originally posted by JB42
Gee another example of Uber Allied FMs. What a surprise. :rolleyes:
Your knowledge just knows no bounds.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Raptor01
In H2H an arena host once turned on an upward 127mph wind and everyone went up. The P38L is my main ride and of course that is what I was in, by the time I get to 80k (thats right) the host cut off the wind, I decided I would experiment with the 38 and dove straight down, full throttle, no dive flaps. It kind of leveled off speed around 600mph, around 7k I decided it's time to get out of the dive and barely tapped up the trim and it came out of the dive at about 4k.
Gee and Raptor, your not even a rook???
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Originally posted by Happy1
I'm tooling around happily at 12 angels, with 2 scalps 2b painted
on my a/c when I spot a P38L @ 14 angels, AHAAAAAHHHHH another quick kill 4 me, I nose dwn to gather speed, trim a/c to
Combat Trim & off I go zooming up to merge (destroy .. lol.. total
confidence). The 38 sees me & is diving on me .. HOOOO HAAAA!
As we merge I cut throttle & reverse on the 38 accelerating on his 6, distance is 800yds. I c a flashing under his wings, he's using his flaps, I hit UP trim & we r in Immelman Loop... trim up..
unable to get guns on him ... :( so close yet so far, after the 4th
loop he's looping endlessly whilst my E is dangerously low ... the
38 driver's good, now I'm looking for ways to get AWAY from him!
At the bottom of this loop I accelerate, hit UP trim many times, my
finger's sore, I glance back & he's 400 yds away from me with MGs
flying past me .... drat!! Forgot about the 38's 'Dive Brakes' :(
he outmaneuvered me, he's outflown me, his 38L dirty tricks are
working like a charm.
I'm in trouble plenty...broke to the right...darn...38s have no torque & then I hear ping ... ping .... BOOOOOMM! I'm back in the tower & I get a from the 38 which I return ... unfortunate-
ly I forgot to film this fight :o The 38 driver was very good
How would the experienced Spit9 drivers & P38 drivers handle such a situation, what tactics would the spit9 drivers utilize ?? Likewise the 38 fliers? How would u handle the scenario in a different manner.
Recommendations/suggestions/critiques/ are invited ...help me!
Cheers,
Happy1 :D
From your description, there is no reason that 38 should have survived the merge. You must have made some big mistakes to let him on your six. This is just from him being nose down and you nose up on the merge. Then you are on his six in a Spit. And then some comments about you cutting throtle but excelerating on his six and plaing with your trim way too much :)
Who was the 38 pilot, cause that could explain why you died.
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lol, by that description id say pellik :)
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the spit9 is a better plane then the p38.. dont mind the p38 seeniesm thats a fact.
if you got shot down its because of your own mistake.
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Originally posted by Pooface
lol, by that description id say pellik :)
:lol There are a couple out there that you could not fight against them even in an F16, but it has nothing to do with the plane.
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sounds to me like you were too busy playing with your trim to concentrate on killing him.
dont think so much.
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Originally posted by dedalos
:lol There are a couple out there that you could not fight against them even in an F16, but it has nothing to do with the plane.
Few months ago, on Baltic map, was a huge knight mission 30-40 planes,at our base close to HQ, i upped Me163, went there fast and nailed some C47s,
There were only 2 survievers: ManeTMP and XtremeJ in P38s vs 30-40 knight planes all over the base:
i run out of fuel, and upped again , by the time i got there were only few enemy left , this 2 guys killed them all, i never seen something like that
ManeTMP and XJ killed all frikin huge mission,
They landed 14 and 15 kills=29 (unlucky punks)
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get some seperation and and keep reversing on him keeping spacing good..1.2 to1.4 keep your turns semiflat..38s love it when you try and vert fight them. if all goes well he will lose e and nose down to gain speed..try and close the gap with your acceleration and catch him on the initial climb when he starts to go up again..you should beat him in the first part of the climb....if this doesnt work get out before you lose all your e..rinse repeat. probabaly not textbook but seems to work good for me.
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Just shud up and PWN!@
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
In AW, the Spitfire Mk IX was way over modeled and it could out climb and out run the P-38Jat all altitudes. So it was a common Spitfire tactic for them to use a spiral climb against a P-38Jsince the P-38J as under and in some parts incorrectly modeled (AW's P-38J had dive brakes instead of dive flaps).
ack-ack
That also might have had something to do with the AW Spitfire Mk IX being powered by a Merlin 66, and maybe at +25lbs boost, no?
Or do you actually think AH's 1942, +15lbs boost Merlin 61 powered Spitfire Mk IX is representative? If so you need to read up on Spitfires a little bit. They weren't nearly as crappy as AH makes them out to be.
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Really? Anytime I get ANY p38 to 451, my wings come off.
And that's not pulling any maneuvers, no g's. Just straight flight.
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A couple of things dont "add up"....as you merge you "reverse"...I'd assume that your simply pulling up and over since you were nose up thru the merge...but thats not really clear...then your "flashing under" is wings...now if he pulled up thru his merge you have a plane form shot...
The only way for this all to happen is if he flew an angles opener from a high alt and got you to overshoot on his reverse back into you...but it sounds like you feel your almost at guns solution after that....
Without a clip to look at all I can say is it sounds like you fought the worst possible fight for the match up...assuming the "right choice" was the reverse...you either blew the shot or he was going all angles and denied you...to "chase him" was wrong...roll 90 away and extend out...if he's slow you can easily go up for the high ground...but letting him get into the meat of his flaps in a looping fight is a sure loser. Your other option was simply to go high off his "poor" merge and see how it plays out.
I'm guessing the 38 driver "slow merged" you figuring he'd be able to use your speed e retention against you then simply locked on to his angles gains and wore you down.
From your description of the merge you should have had him cold on the reverse given the fact that you "won" the merge...or did you? If he was already pulling back up into you and you "flashed under him" on the "remerge....then he actually had you in a vertical scissors...which you lose. About only time that "winning merge" is a loser I know off...if you get reversed like that you need to deny the scissors by diving on out of dodge and realize you've got a stud in the other plane...
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This discussion reminds me of something I read in Bob Hoover's autobio "Forever Flying". During his stay in Engalnd in the Big War, Hoover was challenged to a "duel" by a smart-assed P-38 pilot. Bob climbed in his Spit (I forget the model #). The two agreed to 1 head-on pass, then it was no-holds-barred. Hoover ate the other guys lunch, needless to say. But, that was Bob Hoover. He coulda then taken the P-38 and spanked the Spit driver.
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Happy1, in hind-sight, what about continuing your initial climb thereby putting yourself in the better position to try to rope/cherrypick the P-38 at your leisure. Instead of reversing right away to follow him, as you did. Anyone want to tell me why that wouldn't work out?
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Originally posted by slimm50
Happy1, in hind-sight, what about continuing your initial climb thereby putting yourself in the better position to try to rope/cherrypick the P-38 at your leisure. Instead of reversing right away to follow him, as you did. Anyone want to tell me why that wouldn't work out?
What, roping a 38 that started higher than you? You may as well go HO with a NIKI in 202.
He did the right thing. He reversed and got on his six. I cant tell what happened after that cause the description is not very clear. Way too much messing with the trim and not nuff fighting?
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Originally posted by Pooface
lol yeah, american patriotism:lol
its gonna be like that with most games tho, most americans believe the war started in '41, and of course it did for you guys, but it was going on 2 years before that aswell you know:rolleyes:
anywho, endless ramblings of a silly brit :)
oh, btw, i was watching the extra features on the battle of britain dvd, and they had a featurette mith michael caine. they interviewed 20 americans outside the american embassy, 17 of which thought that the americans won the battle of britain, and that the english failed :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Most British think the war started in 1939, when it was actually going on as early as '33 with the Japanese invading Korea;)
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sounds like you misjudged his E at first, was only 2k higher than you , but was his speed compared to you? while you trying to trim and everything else, wasting E...he kept looping till he saw time to hit flaps because you about to stall...then, game over. what i get from description anyways...hard to tell, you went up and over, he just went up...roped, continued till you e was gone as you fought for solution.
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Originally posted by dedalos
What, roping a 38 that started higher than you? You may as well go HO with a NIKI in 202.
He did the right thing. He reversed and got on his six. I cant tell what happened after that cause the description is not very clear. Way too much messing with the trim and not nuff fighting?
Ded, my thinking was sumpin like this: the spit 9's strong suit is the spiral climb. Since the P38 was diving, and there was only a couple thousand feet diff in alt, if the spit had enough speed he could continue the zoom upward, whilst the p38 would have to then trade speed for alt, by which time the spit would have the alt advantage. The spit would continue the vertical climbout in a spiral while the p38, in the effort to try and track the spit, bled energy faster than the spit, thus allowing the spit to choose his opportunity to strike. (for example, when the p38 flops over, for real and not just faking it).
Have I made any sense here?
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Originally posted by slimm50
Ded, my thinking was sumpin like this: the spit 9's strong suit is the spiral climb. Since the P38 was diving, and there was only a couple thousand feet diff in alt, if the spit had enough speed he could continue the zoom upward, whilst the p38 would have to then trade speed for alt, by which time the spit would have the alt advantage. The spit would continue the vertical climbout in a spiral while the p38, in the effort to try and track the spit, bled energy faster than the spit, thus allowing the spit to choose his opportunity to strike. (for example, when the p38 flops over, for real and not just faking it).
Have I made any sense here?
You make sence, I just would not do it. Or should I say, everytime I tried it, I end up getting hurt. Very hard to estimate e states. The 38 was diving (we don't know how stip the dive was). If it was a shalow dive, he was picking up speed and being a 38 (helicopter) I am guessing it would be able to follow up. Even if it could not, it could still hit the spit from d800 or have a HO shot when the spit finaly fall over.
All this is just a guess. Depending on the e states, you may be right. Just personal preference I guess. I would not try it with a 38.
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Originally posted by Karnak
That also might have had something to do with the AW Spitfire Mk IX being powered by a Merlin 66, and maybe at +25lbs boost, no?
That had nothing to do with it. It was a known fact that the Spitfire Mk IX was over modeled. Some players claimed it was because the Kesmoids favored the Spitfire but as one guy from Kesmai told me, the real reason is that the Spitfire in AW was considered the starter plane. It was a plane that you automatically started in the first time you logged into the game and the plane that 99.99% of the newbies flew until they learned the game. And of course, AW's less than accurate flight model also helped.
ack-ack
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"In AW, the Spitfire Mk IX was way over modeled and it could out climb and out run the P-38Jat all altitudes."
AW, especially AW3, was not known for its modeling accuracy by any stretch of the imagination.
The late (AW3 after several patches) P-38J was actually modeled more like a P-38G. It had an initial climbrate of about 3200 FPM and could reach 404 MPH tops. Their Spitfire 9 was actually pretty close to a LF mk 9--but it performed well up high too. The AW 109K was the worst of them all--top speed of only 399 MPH (I kid you not). The F4U-1D could maintain a 2900 FPM climbrate at 30,000 feet. The P-40E was my favorite though--it had a top speed of only 317 MPH (@14k) and could barely hold 2500 FPM with WEP....no wonder it sucked so bad.
I did extensive testing of most the AW planes' speed and climb in late 2000. I probably knew more about how they performed than the developers did by that point due to the incredible neglect the game received. It wasn't easy to test this stuff, either, since the game's climbrate indicator wasn't accurate and I had to convert knots to MPH.
J_A_B
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Gentlemen, thx much 4 ur replies & inputs, now I understand what I've done wrong, besides being over-confident, loss of "E" &
was suckered into a looping fite w/the 38 (big error), what I was
attempting to do is to zoom up to the 38, slow down to whip arnd faster on my reversal, accelerate, WEP & blast the 38.
The 38 driver started pulling up & I followed him up...trimming w/my UP elevator having nary a doubt that I'll get him, I noticed
that the climbs were very steep. After a cple of loops, I tried to
get above him & STAY there so I can snipe or BnZ him, that didn't
work :(
Just couldn't get angles on the 38 & yes he wore my E down so I
was outflown by a better driver. Who the driver was/is I don't
know as in the heat of battle I was watching him & what he does.
After the saluting I didn't pay too much attn, my mistake, as I could've asked ? of my wrong doing & what I should've done.
Have to learn HOW 2 break off after a cple loops formulating a gd
attack plan. I don't really care for long fites as I like to get in, kill
the nme ASAP & go on the next opponent, unfortunately some
people don't give me the opportunity, such as in this case .. lol
Keep ur advice, comments, critiques & recommendations coming
as I need ALL the help I can get ... Thx every1 :)
Happy1 :D
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That had nothing to do with it. It was a known fact that the Spitfire Mk IX was over modeled. Some players claimed it was because the Kesmoids favored the Spitfire but as one guy from Kesmai told me, the real reason is that the Spitfire in AW was considered the starter plane. It was a plane that you automatically started in the first time you logged into the game and the plane that 99.99% of the newbies flew until they learned the game. And of course, AW's less than accurate flight model also helped.
ack-ack
Interesting.
This coupled with J_A_B's post make me glad I never flew AW.
That said, AH really needs a representative Spitfire line up, such as I recently posted about in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum. If the OP had been flying a Spitfire LF.Mk XVI at +25lbs boost the fight would have been a lot more of a fight.
AH only having the Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost Spitfire F.Mk IX from 1942 really gives a distorted view of how competitive Spitfires were.
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Do NOT climb. If you get into a vertical fight with a p38 in a spit9 you will lose. Keep flat turning, and if he goes up, extend, get your speed up, and when he tries to pick you, use his speed against him and force an overshoot, but if he climbs back up do not follow him or you are rope bait =)
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Karnak--
AW was not all bad; however, I do not forget the things about it which WERE bad. Their flight modeling and aircraft performance was bad. Their developers were generally un-caring and dismissive of much of the community's concerns (remember years of "maintenence mode" as they worked on other projects like AW:vietnam that few people wanted?). It's an excellent case of what mismanagement and corporate apathy can do to an online product. As such, the comment a Kesmai employee may have made to Ack-Ack must be taken with a grain of salt--the comments from the devs weren't alway saccurate and in some cases they were known to outright lie to the players.
HTC is a far superior company in terms of dedication to its product and player base.
AirWarrior had it's good points, too, and was in some ways superior to AH. Feel free to ask me about it if you like :)
J_A_B
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I had always thought the spit9 was a POS until I got my butt kicked by flyboy a few weeks ago. I'm still not entierly sure how well they can match up as my throttle management just is no match for his. The advantages he demonstrated are only really valid in a co-E fight, however.
The spit's guns package simply doesn't compare with the 38 IF you can shoot. Because of it's long range gunning options the 38 can simply prevent the spit from either having a good merge or having equal energy. Defensive positioning just pays off better when d800 is kill range, and it's hard to reverse an attacking 38 for the same reasons. The 38 can also really take a beating, so even if the spit catches you with the hispanios for a brief shot during a reversal, you're far more likely to survive that then him surviving to get back out of guns range.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Interesting.
This coupled with J_A_B's post make me glad I never flew AW.
That said, AH really needs a representative Spitfire line up, such as I recently posted about in the Aircraft and Vehicles forum. If the OP had been flying a Spitfire LF.Mk XVI at +25lbs boost the fight would have been a lot more of a fight.
AH only having the Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost Spitfire F.Mk IX from 1942 really gives a distorted view of how competitive Spitfires were.
The 38 can utterly destroy the spit14, too.
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spit 9 matches u well against 38..the thing is most 38 dirvers really know their bird..spit is very forgiving so alot of potential e is lost in sloppy merges when the over confident driver thinks hes in complete control of the fight.
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Again, I dunno how it stacks up here, but a spit 9 vs a 38 was always a good fight in AW and dependent on pilot ability, as was p51 vs d9, hellcat vs ki, hog vs n1k1. I used to like different plane duels.
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Originally posted by pellik
The 38 can utterly destroy the spit14, too.
Can, yes. Will, not usually given equal pilots. Spit XIV has more potential than the P-38J or P-38L.
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I chased turned and killed 1 spit14 this tour in a P38G . It was very easy.
Somehow when it starts to turn it loses the fight.
Love em and they way over priced too :)
Dont understand why they perked at all.
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I'd guess they were over priced as you hardly ever see one. You'd think someone would notice.
In 1 year and about 9 months of AH, I've seen 2 spit14 in combat. A truckload of 262's, f4u1c out the ears, temps out the yen yang but *2 * spit 14's. You'd think someone would notice. Dont they have a tool to quickly see which planes are being flown?
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Originally posted by pellik
The 38 can utterly destroy the spit14, too.
I think this has more to do with who's driving the XIV and who's driving the 38. There are only 2 areas where the 38 is better than the XIV and those are gun-package (hard to beat nose mounted guns) and horizontal turns at low speeds.
The XIV is more stable at extreme speeds, retains E better, climbs better, accelerates much better and zooms better than any of the 38's. Trying to fly the XIV like a Spit V or IX is typically flown in AH is a mistake an awful lot of people seem to make with it. I think it should be perked but I agree that it is way overpriced. I think C-hog or Ta-152 pricing would let us see more of it in the game without having it turn into an arena monster.
just my $0.02 on the XIV
..trying to stay on topic here:
Fighting a 38 with an e-advantage in a SpitIX I tend to climb gently and keep the fight in turn mode and stay close to the 38 in an effort to make him spend his e while I'm banking mine climbing (try to stay in the 200-250mph range while you do this - don't get slower or you'll start to lose options in a hurry). It takes very good timing and making sure you never lose sight of the 38. Most guys who fly the 38 seem to fly it alot, know it well and those nose guns are deadly at ranges you'd consider extreme in anything with wing-mounted guns. They pack a wallop too so getting scratched tends to mean arterial flow from missing limbs . Trying to force an overshoot by reversing your direction once he's committed might work on occasion too - if he's made the mistake of getting too fast. Not many do but you never know.
If you've managed to get him co-E or near co-E, increase your speed a bit and use the Spit's e-fighting capability. If he isn't a good stick in the 38 you'll be in a position to reverse the situation on him at some point by doing this. If he's good at this and you're lucky enough still alive at this point anyway, you're most likely going to be in a rolling scissor with him if he hasn't decided to call it a "round" and extend to reposition on you. Keep him in sight, when you get the chance, try to force him to overshoot by going slightly negative G and ruddering it around when you're inverted - be gentle with this or you'll spin. Most likely the only shots you're going to get are snapshots as he passes your nose so be quick on the trigger and take anything that looks like there's even the smallest chance of landing some hits on him.
I do this and I succeed about 25% of the time - of course I suck . If I can survive to the scissors stage of the fight my luck goes way up. Good luck and I hope it works for you.
asw
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Originally posted by detch01
I think this has more to do with who's driving the XIV and who's driving the 38. There are only 2 areas where the 38 is better than the XIV and those are gun-package (hard to beat nose mounted guns) and horizontal turns at low speeds.
The XIV is more stable at extreme speeds, retains E better, climbs better, accelerates much better and zooms better than any of the 38's. Trying to fly the XIV like a Spit V or IX is typically flown in AH is a mistake an awful lot of people seem to make with it. I think it should be perked but I agree that it is way overpriced. I think C-hog or Ta-152 pricing would let us see more of it in the game without having it turn into an arena monster.
just my $0.02 on the XIV
..trying to stay on topic here:
Fighting a 38 with an e-advantage in a SpitIX I tend to climb gently and keep the fight in turn mode and stay close to the 38 in an effort to make him spend his e while I'm banking mine climbing (try to stay in the 200-250mph range while you do this - don't get slower or you'll start to lose options in a hurry). It takes very good timing and making sure you never lose sight of the 38. Most guys who fly the 38 seem to fly it alot, know it well and those nose guns are deadly at ranges you'd consider extreme in anything with wing-mounted guns. They pack a wallop too so getting scratched tends to mean arterial flow from missing limbs . Trying to force an overshoot by reversing your direction once he's committed might work on occasion too - if he's made the mistake of getting too fast. Not many do but you never know.
If you've managed to get him co-E or near co-E, increase your speed a bit and use the Spit's e-fighting capability. If he isn't a good stick in the 38 you'll be in a position to reverse the situation on him at some point by doing this. If he's good at this and you're lucky enough still alive at this point anyway, you're most likely going to be in a rolling scissor with him if he hasn't decided to call it a "round" and extend to reposition on you. Keep him in sight, when you get the chance, try to force him to overshoot by going slightly negative G and ruddering it around when you're inverted - be gentle with this or you'll spin. Most likely the only shots you're going to get are snapshots as he passes your nose so be quick on the trigger and take anything that looks like there's even the smallest chance of landing some hits on him.
I do this and I succeed about 25% of the time - of course I suck . If I can survive to the scissors stage of the fight my luck goes way up. Good luck and I hope it works for you.
asw
Now I can't say I've fought someone in the spit14 who knows it as well as I know the 38, but I've fought some of the best pilots in the game while they were flyin' em. There are a few more advantages the 38 has over the spit14 that really hurts the spit pilot. First the spit14 has terrible torque. It climbs better if you stay in a sustained climb, but as soon as you start looking to stall fight the 38 gets much more deadly. You may be able to zoom up 600 ft above me in the middle of a fight, but I can fly like a helecopter and snipe you down. The 38 also has a much better turn radius. So when things get close the 38 can pick up snapshot after snapshot by reversing it's turns. Stall recovery is better in the 38 too, so if both planes go past the stall the 38 may gain angles during the tumble.
So, the 38 counters the spit's climb with better stall fighting. Powerful flaps and a small turn radius, combined with a super controllable stall, keeps the spit from turning with the 38. The only thing the 38 can't do much about is the spits speed. Bore and zoom may work if the 38 falls asleep, but it could also backfire if the 38 gets lucky with positioning.
Oh, and if the 38's flaps start coming out give up that overshoot plan.
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Well indeed, pellik has a point.
The long-range sniping aspect of games like Aces High makes a lot of things twisted and hard as compared to real life.
According to sources like Anthony Williams, 200 meters is about the absolute limit of A2A gunnery against another fighter. 400 meters is the limit against a large, slow, non-maneuvering bomber.
It's not about the ballistics, but rather the situational complexity concerning A2A gunnery which makes targetting over certain distances ultimately futile. Sakai taunts the USN pilots in his Biography, saying "over 500 meters, they are doing nothing but wasting ammunition".
Ofcourse, this doesn't apply to just the P-38, but all the planes in the game.
Whereas in real life, a 300 yard separation would be enough "zoom distance" to execute a nice rope-a-dope, in AH2 you would need at least more than 600 to be safe, especially against Hispano or 50cal armed planes or 109s/La-7s with centerline armament.
The Spit14 is quite a bit more powerful than the P-38J or L in many ways in AH, and in many occasions it wouldn't have much problem outzooming a P-38 in the vertical by 300~400 yards. But of course, this separation just isn't enough.
It's the same thing with all planes that are known to 'zoom like the helicopter'.
The 190A-5 vs Spit5 match up.. 109F-4 vs Spit5 match up.... Ki-84 vs F4U-1D match up.. etc etc...
The 190, 109, F4U are all faster and can outzoom the Spit5 and the Ki-84.. but just not enough to be safe. Inside 400 yards, practically dead.
Just for the sake of discussion, let's assume for some reason the bullets just don't hit outside of 200 yards in the game. If things are ever like this, the Spit14 has plenty enough juice to outzoom P-38s - at least, enough to be safe and execute a reversal.
...
Looking back on how it used to be in AH1 where long range sniping was even worse.. AH2 is still an improvement.
However, if a Spit14 or a Bf109G-10 has to engage a P-38 of simular pilot skill as oneself, starting out from co-E, then the only real safe way to gain a decisive edge is to take the fight long and slow.
Lots of climbs, long and boring extensions.. etc etc... until the pure vertical separation between the two aircraft is large enough to give the Spit14 a one-sided BnZ opportunity, using the speed and climb advantage to the fullest.
A temporary, small margin of speed advantage just isn't enough to rope a P-38. At least, not in AH.
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Well I don't think the 200 meter rule applay to people having 10 year (or more) gunnery training , plus a Pc is not a real plane.
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Well I don't think the 200 meter rule applay to people having 10 year (or more) gunnery training , plus a Pc is not a real plane.
Yeah straffo. Especially not to people with 10 year gunnery training with icons.
If there's ever an experiment I'd like to do, it would be the distance marker with enemy icons totally removed from the game, and just +/- signs and country designation icon.
Some people would STILL be able to hit further out than real life distances, that's for certain, but I'm guessing it'd be a lot less than it is now.
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LOL Pellik - After the lesson tonight you gave me tonight in 38's I'm hard pressed to argue with you on that, but I'm gonna try anyway. (I was the PJ you were lined up on just before you got nailed - it was all over but the crying for me til my buddy came along and saved my hide).
I agree fully that a stall fight is not where the XIV should be against a 38 (or anything for that matter)- especially one in the hands of someone who knows the 38 well. Torque in the XIV is only a factor when you get it slow in my experience with it and it doesn't do well at slow speeds. It could just be my hands but I've found the 38 tougher to quickly recover from a stall than the XIV. The XIV stall recovery is quicker and crisper than the 38 and it does stall turns pretty well, which makes it a pretty capable roper. What it doesn't do well is hang off the prop with any sort of stability so hitting something above you with it in a vertical stall is pure chance.
Overall, I think with 2 pilots of equally high levels of skill, one in a 38 the other in the XIV and each flying their airplane to its potential and neither making any major mistakes, the XIV has the edge. The XIV driver gets to pick how the fight plays out unless he makes a mistake and gets forced into fighting the 38's fight. The 38 has 2 basic choices, fight at speeds where the XIV is comfortable or stay in the comfort zone for the 38 and hope for a mistake from the XIV driver.
Now get the XIV in a stall fight with the 38 and I agree with you. The 38 has most of the advantages and should win the fight fairly quickly if the 38 driver is at all competent.
It's a completely different story with a IX and a 38. The 38 has pretty much all the advantages going in save roll rate and acceleration and the roll rate advantage isn't that great. Taking the fight vertical just gives the 38 driver the chance to do the helicopter routine. Which is why when I'm in a spit IX being attacked by a higher P38 and I've managed to have survived to where I can force the situation into a rolling scissors at medium(ish) speeds that's my first choice in that matchup if I don't already have a shot. Getting to that point is not a sure thing by any means and I'm certainly no expert with the Spit, but it works more often for me than anything else I've done in that situation and it works almost as well in the fw's, jugs and ponies.
Cheers,
asw
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Don't try spiral climb to evade a p38L. P38L can climb like hydrogen and it can keep it's nose up at very low speeds compared to other fighters. P38L also should accellerate much faster than spit9, and obviously it is much faster than spit9. Spit9 will however reach higher speeds in a sustained dive.
But don't try diving out of a fight against a p38L, see the part about acceleration. Bottom line; P38L has a lot of advantages over spit9.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
:lol 600 meters? I stopped trying to rope people cause I constantly get hit from 50s at 800 and 1K.
I dont see how someone can hit a moving target from a moving platform at these distances. I don;t even think I can see that far, lol.
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our spit 9 is somewhat an under powered model. You have a disadvantage in the vertical vs. the 38.
Also, the turning geometry of the 38 and spit is very different which make people think the 38 turns quicker than the spit. This is an illusion, which many inexperienced players fall for.
The geometry is more important that the actual turn rate. High speed 180 turns are not circular - they are more elliptical and the geometry changes with the ability of the plane to conserve or loose speed during the turn.
Spits hold their E well while turning due to low wingloading, resulting in a more circular "orbit". P47s and P38s dump a ton of E and slow down resulting in an elliptical turn with smaller radius. P38s greatest feature is the ability to fly very tight circles at slow speeds - their turning RATE however is not very good at those speeds. A spit pilot will find himself flying around the 38 instead of up to his 6 and unable to get a gun solution even though he's pulling more degreees per second.
getting to the 38's 6 will require some manuvering and positioning beyond pulling the stick to your belly. you need to work the "circles" to be non co-centric in order to benifit from better turnrate with higher speed.
The vertical case is similar since a loop is usually not a circle but an inverted greek-gamma shaped, and the geometry depends on how you pull the G's in the manuver. This is slightly more complicated since gravity also changes the turn rates on different parts of the manuver. P38 can get really really slow at the top and make this a very narrow gamma. This allows them to be placed inside your loop and do the point up-point down switch quickly.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
getting to the 38's 6 will require some manuvering and positioning beyond pulling the stick to your belly. you need to work the "circles" to be non co-centric in order to benifit from better turnrate with higher speed.
So, maybe a high yo-yo to shorten the spits turning radius, rather than simply trying to turn in the same plane as the p38? Is that what you're sayin?
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Bozon is comparing turn rate (degree's/s) with turn radius (tightness of turn). Basically the spit turns "faster" and the 38 turns "tighter"...so the spit driver is flying "outside" the 38....as he pulls harder and harder the spit slows down till it enters a situation where the 38 outperforms it....id he misses the relatively narrow window for a good guns solution he's now locked into a fight he cant win vs a good 38 driver. Basically the spit driver needs to maintain a good E state and manuever out of plane to the 38 so that his "larger circle" intersects the 38's "tighter circle" appropriately...no amount of "in plane" manuevering will give the spitty both the angualar advantage and E state required to successfully prosocute a sustained attack.
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i did a few tests with various gas loads, flaps, speed brakes, and throttle settings with a spit9 vs 38 and i couldnt get the the 38 to outturn the spit 9...or inside it in any situation involving low speeds..guess i was doing something wrong.
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However, if a Spit14 or a Bf109G-10 has to engage a P-38 of simular pilot skill as oneself, starting out from co-E, then the only real safe way to gain a decisive edge is to take the fight long and slow.
Lots of climbs, long and boring extensions.. etc etc... until the pure vertical separation between the two aircraft is large enough to give the Spit14 a one-sided BnZ opportunity, using the speed and climb advantage to the fullest
I dont concur with this..(the g10 part i do it doesn't turn well) the spit14 turns just as well as any other aircraft at highspeeds, and that is limited by 6g blackout..
at low speeds < 250 the p38 gets to deploy flaps and can out turn and out radii the spit14 (the out radii being the big one; they turn very similiar until engine torqing occurs..)
as for long boring extensions while that is common in the ma those who do such are inexperienced.
A smart spit14 will high yoyo and saddle.. high yoyo and saddle.. if the fight gets into the str of the p38, looping, low speed turn/radii etc.. the spit14 has major advantage in acceleration and high speed climb to zip away and gain seperation for a quick reverse, and then a long boring extension (heh) in the form of a spiral climb that no aircraft can match except maybe for the g10... then down on top of the p38's head.. nowhere to run.. big fat arse too for hispano's
the key is to keep the pressure on.. those who do the loopy (i call it the la7 syndrone) never ending extensions are really blowing whatever advantage they just thought they made by losing time from sandbagging and being passive..
using lag pursuit the spit14 turns with about any aircraft in the game when the throttle is managed.. throttle to wall i can see how some may underestimate the spit14....
granted many aircraft will out radii the spit14.. its attributes actually lend to this to boot.. but who is going to blow all their e trying to out radii a spit14 is asking for trouble if the spit14 has a clue.. acceleration up to speed then a highspeed reverse.. (spitfire reverse) hence conserving e while reversing (usually 3-5 turn.. i like 4g turns in it..)
and then gain e advantage and then blow that advantage for a solution/lag pursuit saddle.... thats how you do it.. if necessary repeat the above tactics till con is dead.... thats spit14 flying..
(not a dig Kwessa just difference in opinions..)
DoctorYo
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jaxxo,
I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38. In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.
If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.
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Aiming is really easy in P38, ppl underestimate the marksmanship here. I still think aiming is fubared here as some pilots can snipe from 800. been looking tru russina aces articles , they never fired beyond 100 meters, thats corresponds with german aces remarks. Dsitance beyond that is just the waste of ammo. But here in ah 2 i get sniped from like 800 ft by pellik.(I have a film)
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The P38 is no different than any other plane in the game. Although it is one of my favorite planes in the set, I think there are many other planes in the set that are just as deadly.
Once you find its strengths and learn how to use them against other planes/oponents in the game it becomes a very dangerous plane. It is this way with anything you fly. A perfect example is Leviathn in a tempest. If its him, and you, and hes Red, you'll probably be dead soon.
For me, it was never about the plane I was flying or the plane I was flying against. Rather who I thought was doing the flying. ie, a newb, or someone who knew a thing or two about a thing or two.
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problem is that if its a ww2 sim, pl shouldn be able to hit the plane beyond a certain range. In ww2 ppl didnt have the distance info, etc. I domt know if there are any formulas to reflect wind, distance , etc.
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It's a game - no problem :D
asw
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Most of us 38 pilots that usually only fly the 38, will know what the 38 can and cant do. We will get our 38s to out turn most planes. For me the only planes that I really havent been able to out turn are yaks, zekes, and spit 5s. Other than that my 38 can out turn the rest of the planes. Spit 9s are a good mixture between the spit 14 and spit 5 giving it speed and turning capability but a good 38 pilot can out turn spit 9s.
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Originally posted by humble
Bozon is comparing turn rate (degree's/s) with turn radius (tightness of turn). Basically the spit turns "faster" and the 38 turns "tighter"...so the spit driver is flying "outside" the 38....as he pulls harder and harder the spit slows down till it enters a situation where the 38 outperforms it....id he misses the relatively narrow window for a good guns solution he's now locked into a fight he cant win vs a good 38 driver. Basically the spit driver needs to maintain a good E state and manuever out of plane to the 38 so that his "larger circle" intersects the 38's "tighter circle" appropriately...no amount of "in plane" manuevering will give the spitty both the angualar advantage and E state required to successfully prosocute a sustained attack.
Humble I agree. That's what I was saying/thinking; the type of manuver i suggested would take you out of the 38's plane so you could manuver more efficiently and effectively.
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If you cant out turn a yak, how do you out turn a spit9?
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38 will not out turn a V. The pilot may out fly you
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Originally posted by Karnak
jaxxo,
I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38. In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.
If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.
The proverbial nail has been hit directly on its head with such force ... most won't even know it.
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Originally posted by Karnak
jaxxo,
I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38. In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.
If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.
Agreed, they could get in most anything and get the same results.
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Originally posted by detch01
LOL Pellik - After the lesson tonight you gave me tonight in 38's I'm hard pressed to argue with you on that, but I'm gonna try anyway. (I was the PJ you were lined up on just before you got nailed - it was all over but the crying for me til my buddy came along and saved my hide).
I agree fully that a stall fight is not where the XIV should be against a 38 (or anything for that matter)- especially one in the hands of someone who knows the 38 well. Torque in the XIV is only a factor when you get it slow in my experience with it and it doesn't do well at slow speeds. It could just be my hands but I've found the 38 tougher to quickly recover from a stall than the XIV. The XIV stall recovery is quicker and crisper than the 38 and it does stall turns pretty well, which makes it a pretty capable roper. What it doesn't do well is hang off the prop with any sort of stability so hitting something above you with it in a vertical stall is pure chance.
Overall, I think with 2 pilots of equally high levels of skill, one in a 38 the other in the XIV and each flying their airplane to its potential and neither making any major mistakes, the XIV has the edge. The XIV driver gets to pick how the fight plays out unless he makes a mistake and gets forced into fighting the 38's fight. The 38 has 2 basic choices, fight at speeds where the XIV is comfortable or stay in the comfort zone for the 38 and hope for a mistake from the XIV driver.
Now get the XIV in a stall fight with the 38 and I agree with you. The 38 has most of the advantages and should win the fight fairly quickly if the 38 driver is at all competent.
It's a completely different story with a IX and a 38. The 38 has pretty much all the advantages going in save roll rate and acceleration and the roll rate advantage isn't that great. Taking the fight vertical just gives the 38 driver the chance to do the helicopter routine. Which is why when I'm in a spit IX being attacked by a higher P38 and I've managed to have survived to where I can force the situation into a rolling scissors at medium(ish) speeds that's my first choice in that matchup if I don't already have a shot. Getting to that point is not a sure thing by any means and I'm certainly no expert with the Spit, but it works more often for me than anything else I've done in that situation and it works almost as well in the fw's, jugs and ponies.
Cheers,
asw
The spit14's advantages are at very high speed, while defensive flying is usually a game of transitions to lower speeds. The spit can climb away and gain an altitude advantage, but it's just not that capable of getting an attack on a well flown 38. Basically if the 38 runs solid defensive positioning any shot the spit takes will result in a better shot for the 38 after the overshoot. If the 38 doesn't hang himself on the spits rope and the spit doesn't make a bad attack the fight will be a draw.
Of course this isn't considering the horde mentality of the MA. When I see a spit14 hunting me he usually just flys around 5k above me for 20min waiting for me to enguage someone else. I usually head away from the fight and see which of us has the discipline to master the bordum of that retarded style of attack longest.
The spit9 is much more capable against the 38 then the spit14. It just turns better. The spit pilot has to be really good to know how to compensate for the 38s style if we're talking about a co-E merge. The 38 is better imo if there is a large E desparity going into the fight.
Originally posted by DoctorYO
I dont concur with this..(the g10 part i do it doesn't turn well) the spit14 turns just as well as any other aircraft at highspeeds, and that is limited by 6g blackout..
at low speeds < 250 the p38 gets to deploy flaps and can out turn and out radii the spit14 (the out radii being the big one; they turn very similiar until engine torqing occurs..)
as for long boring extensions while that is common in the ma those who do such are inexperienced.
A smart spit14 will high yoyo and saddle.. high yoyo and saddle.. if the fight gets into the str of the p38, looping, low speed turn/radii etc.. the spit14 has major advantage in acceleration and high speed climb to zip away and gain seperation for a quick reverse, and then a long boring extension (heh) in the form of a spiral climb that no aircraft can match except maybe for the g10... then down on top of the p38's head.. nowhere to run.. big fat arse too for hispano's
the key is to keep the pressure on.. those who do the loopy (i call it the la7 syndrone) never ending extensions are really blowing whatever advantage they just thought they made by losing time from sandbagging and being passive..
using lag pursuit the spit14 turns with about any aircraft in the game when the throttle is managed.. throttle to wall i can see how some may underestimate the spit14....
granted many aircraft will out radii the spit14.. its attributes actually lend to this to boot.. but who is going to blow all their e trying to out radii a spit14 is asking for trouble if the spit14 has a clue.. acceleration up to speed then a highspeed reverse.. (spitfire reverse) hence conserving e while reversing (usually 3-5 turn.. i like 4g turns in it..)
and then gain e advantage and then blow that advantage for a solution/lag pursuit saddle.... thats how you do it.. if necessary repeat the above tactics till con is dead.... thats spit14 flying..
(not a dig Kwessa just difference in opinions..)
DoctorYo
There's a counter to the high yo-yo. Those yo-yos are designed to bring the attacker closer and closer to the defender without losing the 6 line, but each time you do it you have to give up visibility for a few seconds. The defender can do nice gentle turns to position for an overshoot while you're still long range, and when he thinks you're getting too co-E for an overshoot he can pull a hard low yo-yo to get around and come up right underneath you. Resulting in 400-600 range shot and forcing the spit to break off for a moment again, regaining seperation. If the spit is cautious he can stay away from these shots, but he'll never saddle.
Originally posted by Kweassa
The long-range sniping aspect of games like Aces High makes a lot of things twisted and hard as compared to real life.
According to sources like Anthony Williams, 200 meters is about the absolute limit of A2A gunnery against another fighter. 400 meters is the limit against a large, slow, non-maneuvering bomber.
It's not about the ballistics, but rather the situational complexity concerning A2A gunnery which makes targetting over certain distances ultimately futile. Sakai taunts the USN pilots in his Biography, saying "over 500 meters, they are doing nothing but wasting ammunition".
Ofcourse, this doesn't apply to just the P-38, but all the planes in the game.
First of all, are your sources from P38 pilots? Convergence makes a difference, and 38s are not USN planes. Next consider that tactics in WW2 were completely different then they are in here. Those pilots didn't get to go up and spray and pray at targets until they figured out the balistics. They had quite limited training for gunnery. And just because they couldn't shoot effectively at that range doesn't mean the guns themselves wern't capable. I can hit maneuvering targets about 90% at 400, 50% at 600, and 20% at 800. But I pull in 1000 kills a month. If I had only maybe 200 chances to learn to shoot during several years of war I'd probably exclusively hold my shot til 400 too. In short, the hole in realism here is that we can play this game more then real pilots could fly in combat.
-p.
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Originally posted by Karnak
jaxxo,
I personally suspect that most of the P-38 drivers who post here greatly underestimate their skill and attribute it to the P-38. In other words, they'll out manuver a Spit IX and then claim they just out turned it, when they really had to do a bit of manuvering besides a simple, stick to the stomach circle.
If the P-38 really is as easily dominant as they claim then it would be flown vastly more and long since perked.
Mostly what us 38 drivers like to say is that the 38 is the jack of all trades. The only thing it has going for it that's unmatched by the rest of the plane set is that it's torque free. 38 pilots learn versatility, chosing the right fight for the situation. If fighting a hurri or zeke the 38 isn't going to do so well in a turnfight, but it's faster, dives better, zoomes better, and climbs better. It can out E fight the hell out of those planes. Likewise a 38s probably not going to dominate an E fight against a 109g10, but it sure can out turn it.
Where the 38 starts to dominate is when it's ability to combine these fighting styles come togeather, the transitions. If an E fighter trys to stay with a fast 38 the 38 will go up a bit and start slowing things down, then pop out it's supperior turn fighting abilities for domination. Likewise when a spitV bounces a 38 E states even out after two or three turns and the 38 can extend to get the fight fast and gain a large E advantage in short order.
Domination by having one thing your plane does well gets quite boring, imo. Sure the zeke can turn in faster tighter circles then most other fighters, but that's all it can do. When you fight a zeke you know he's gonna turnfight.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Agreed, they could get in most anything and get the same results.
When you fly a plane that's good at everything, you learn to do everything. I can E fight like mad in a 109, but if I get in trouble and have to turn I just don't have the option. Can a good 38 pilot fly the hell out of anything? Yes. Will he get the same results? Only if he's lucky and keeps the situation geared toward one type of flying.
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Originally posted by pellik
When you fly a plane that's good at everything, you learn to do everything. I can E fight like mad in a 109, but if I get in trouble and have to turn I just don't have the option. Can a good 38 pilot fly the hell out of anything? Yes. Will he get the same results? Only if he's lucky and keeps the situation geared toward one type of flying.
Very true. But a good pilot will rarely get into a turn fight in a 109 if he doesn't want to(with the exception of Nath who flies it like you fly a P38). The 109 driver knows how to fly the plane he is in at it's advantages. That's the point I'm trying to get across. Most of the P38 pilots that post on here know what they are doing and when to do it regardless of plane. While they are deadly in a 38, they are normally deadly regardless.
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Originally posted by slimm50
So, maybe a high yo-yo to shorten the spits turning radius, rather than simply trying to turn in the same plane as the p38? Is that what you're sayin?
In a flat turn, the Spitfire will chew up a P-38. That's why the P-38 drivers use a lot of yo-yos and other vertical maneuvers in a angles fight against a Spitfire. A Spitfire will also chew up any P-38 in a medium speed angle fight. That's why good P-38 drivers will try to keep the engagement fast or at very slow speeds (below 150mph IAS) where the P-38 can take advantage of the slight advantage they have over the Spit at those speeds.
And to whoever said the Spitfire has a better substained dive speed over the P-38 should take into consideration the experience of the P-38 driver before making that assumption. The experienced P-38 drivers in this game can make their planes reach 500mph+ IAS and keep that speed and retain control.
I've also seen a lot of Spitfire drivers try to use a spiral dive to escape from me and that usually always results in their deaths. The reason is that the P-38 excels in nose down turns and can easily get inside of a Spitfire that is trying to use a spiral dive to escape.
So what is the best way to fight a P-38 if you're in a Spitfire Mk IX? Keep the fight at medium speeds. That way, the Spitfire has the advantage and the P-38 driver needs to make a hard choice. Either BnZ the Spitfire to make it break hard for a angle shot, or bleed it's E so that the Spitfire gets slow and then pounce on it with a vengeance or look for an easier target. As with all things in life, YMMV.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
A smart spit14 will high yoyo and saddle.. high yoyo and saddle.. if the fight gets into the str of the p38, looping, low speed turn/radii etc.. the spit14 has major advantage in acceleration and high speed climb to zip away
Don't confuse climb rate with vertical performance. Just because a plane can climb better than another, doesn't quite equate also being better in the vertical. The Spitfire 14 bleeds E quicker than the P-38 in the vertical and the only hope the Spit 14 has if they want to play the vertical game is to make sure they had a significan E advantage to begin with to negate the P-38 better vertical performance.
Also, in a high speed angles fight, the P-38 (specifically the P-38L) has the edge as they turn better at high speeds. And in the case of the P-38L, at high speeds it can deploy the dive flaps and use them as a high speed combat flap setting. And yes, the dive flaps will aid the P-38L in turning at high speeds.
Back to the Spitfire 14. In a fight against the P-38, make sure that you have the E advantage and use BnZ attacks but do not extend beyond 3k as you will give the P-38 driver the opportunity to regain the E that was lost in the breaking evasive turn. That is the major mistake I've seen from a lot of players trying to BnZ is that they extend too far away and that allows the target to regain whatever E and altitude they lost during the evasive break. Another mistake I've seen by players flying the Spitfire 14 is that they fly it like it was a IX or a V and get chewed up for their mistake. The Spitfire 14 is best flown like you'd fly a P-51D or a bf109G-10. In short, use BnZ tactics in the plane. It's fast for a reason.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Don't confuse climb rate with vertical performance. Just because a plane can climb better than another, doesn't quite equate also being better in the vertical. The Spitfire 14 bleeds E quicker than the P-38 in the vertical and the only hope the Spit 14 has if they want to play the vertical game is to make sure they had a significan E advantage to begin with to negate the P-38 better vertical performance.
ack-ack
I have tested every fighter in the game for both power-off and power-on zoom climb.
It appears that HTC has indeed modeled mass into the equation. Power-off zoom climb always goes to the heavier aircraft. Power-on zooms demonstrate that mass often offsets a power disadvantage.
A Spit14 will not zoom higher than a P-38 if they start Co-E. Neither will a 109G-10. In fact, the La-7 falls behind all three.
Three of the better zoom climbers are the Tempest, F4U-4 and P-47D-40. All are relative heavy weights with enormous power.
Another trainer and I were furballing with he in a Ki-84 and me in a P-38G. Approximately Co-E, he went pure vertical. I followed and not only didn't lose ground, but zoomed right on by.
In a steady state climb, the Ki-84 wins easily. Not so in a pure vertical zoom, where the P-38s mass more than offsets the Ki-84's superior climb rate. If you are Co-E with your adversary, simply zoom climbing is not a good solution to your problem.
My regards,
Widewing
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what model of p38 is modelled in AH2 `?
IRL 38f and 38j models where easy meat for the LW because if things went bad they always could dive away from opponent knowing controls locked up and 38 had to abort pursuit.
38L and later models did not have that problems
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Originally posted by save
what model of p38 is modelled in AH2 `?
IRL 38f and 38j models where easy meat for the LW because if things went bad they always could dive away from opponent knowing controls locked up and 38 had to abort pursuit.
38L and later models did not have that problems
The P-38G (probably a G-10-Lo), the P-38J-10-Lo (maybe the J-15-Lo, the J-20-Lo had most of the improvements of the L, and the J-25-Lo had everything the L had except rear warning radar and -30 engines) and the P-38L-5-Lo. Since the USAAC did not sanction the use of the increased power settings from the -30 engines in the P-38L, the P-38J-25-Lo and the P-38L-5-Lo and later models were essentially equal in performance. The reason we do not have the P-38J-25-Lo is because we already have the P-38L.
No, the P-38F and the P-38J were well matched to their German opponents given a properly skilled pilot. Having an escape move (in this case a Split S) to escape with your life does not by any stretch make your opponent an "easy kill". Were that the case, by your definition, the Spitfire and the Hurricane would have been easy kills as well, since they could not roll inverted and follow the Split S either, until the Merlin got a new carburetor.
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Originally posted by slimm50
So, maybe a high yo-yo to shorten the spits turning radius, rather than simply trying to turn in the same plane as the p38? Is that what you're sayin?
out of plane manuvers will be needed. If the fight is flat a high yo-yo is a good option - not so much for reducing the turn circle as for creating seperation between the spit and the target - you slow down and add vertical seperation for you to manuver inside.
Also, when you bring the nose back down, half inverted, gravity will pull inside your turn increasing your turn rate. Manuvering nose down keeps you speed near the corner speed - giving up on some angles at the begining for a better position will allow you to end up with a smaller radius, good turn rate to compensate for the lost angles AND your target is no longer inside your circle, so your nose can actually reach it at a future point.
When I used to fight spits in a jug I wanted to have the spit as close to me as possible when I start hard manuvering. Spit 9s were very easy to reverse if the fight started at high speeds and they just tried to follow my moves - good pilots knew not to, and were thinking "position" before trying to go for the shot. When I saw their wings not going parallel to mine, I knew I was about to die.
Bozon
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All this 38 talk made me pull out the ol barge again last night. 1st off not only am I in a "slump" {when am I not:)}...but I basically live life as a target barge in the 38.
Was 5 and 0 in two hops (2 nikki, 3 lala) over big island. Flew it a bit differently based on whats here...had no problem out turning the nikkis and the J just killed the lala's in the verticals. Came back late and flew a couple more...died in both both but the J was dominating the "target" both times....which leads me to the big problem I have in the 38....survivablity. Inevitably I get caught in the "hanging clay pidgeon" mode. Yet I see many of the "masters" nimbly flipping thru clouds of mortals plinking away.
As a final comment I flew a couple more this AM....no problem with spitV at all....simply cant hang with the 38 in the verticals...literally was ~400 out or less (3 differerent fights) with no ability to get nose up for a shot. Did seem to out accerate the 38 on the deck once after I screwed the pooch on a shot...but once I pulled away the 38 handily outzoomed him. Died to another 38 who cherried me and a yak that popped me on the deck...
What I found really interesting was a 1 on 2 with a spitV and a Chog that came in...ended up with both on my 6 low on the deck slow ...and went into the loop game...which I never do....not only did niether get a shot...both augered coming out of 2nd loop.
Sigh...guess its back to the barge of death for another tour:)
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man.. 2 pages now.. but the simplest most logical answer is clearly a spit9 cannot beat a well flown p38.. 8)
spits are just spits.. but 38s have style!
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After getting a wee bit of an education on the P38, I fired up a P38L & found that a/c smooootthhhhhhhh in takeoffs & flight, I de-
cided to try looping at various heights & speed ..... man o'man that 38 seems 2b able to loop 4ever with all flaps down :D this
plane's a joy to fly.
The lowest looping I performed was at 1.5 angels & was pulling out at the water's edge ... very low :)
Tried yo-yos, wingovers & hammerheads everything worked well in a sloppy manner mostly my mistakes. Being overly confident
(my biggest mistake ) I went to H2H arena flying the 38L & as I was going vertical my rite engine was shot, which proved to be a blessing as I was able to pull a rite-handed wingover on the nme a/c & BLASTED it.
Tried the maneuver by switching the rite engine off(most planes
have left torque) & this maneuver works!! HOOOOHAAAAA! Per-
form the maneuver switchon rite engine & off u go :) P38 drivers
try it U'll like it!
Is there a "P38L Newbies Guide" available for downloading, the 38 really grows on u, even though it's not what I'm used to flying
Spit9s, the 38 seems 2b a fun plane even though I was shot dwn
often in my trials ... lol...hard 2 get used to that. Sore loser
Cheers,
Happy1 :D
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
man.. 2 pages now.. but the simplest most logical answer is clearly a spit9 cannot beat a well flown p38.. 8)
spits are just spits.. but 38s have style!
hehehe yup!
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Originally posted by Widewing
That's just plain nonsense. I have seen 590 mph in a dive flying the P-38 and suffers no damage whatsoever. I have dive tested it from 40k.. at 590 I hit auto-level and it pulled out with any damage. Try that in a Spitfire and the wings will likely go bye-bye.
Yeah, it buffets and shake like a wet dog, but you can't break it.
Someone suggested spiral climbing to escape a P-38. You may be successful against a P-38G, but the J and L outclimb the SpitIX. Spiral climbing against the J or L is like hanging out a "shoot me" sign. If you find a P-38 close on your six, you've already humped the monkey. Getting it off will be extremely difficult.
Anyone interested in trying their theories can log into the TA Thursday and Friday evening between 8 and 10 pm eastern. I'm the designated target on those nights.
My regards,
Widewing
Originally posted by Morpheus
^^^What widewing said.
I've yet to see any damage in a 38 from high speed dives. Often times I'll force it to stay in a drive with trim and pull out of a dive with trim.
Once you figure out and get the hang of flying the 38 with trim at high speeds its a monster and can stick with almost anything in a dive.
Nothing comes apart in a dive on the 38.
Maybe the P38 model needs looked at. Sounds wrong.
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Maybe the P38 model needs looked at. Sounds wrong.
Not really. The P-38 wasn't known for coming apart in a dive, but rather for not pulling out of a dive.
Lockheed test pilot Tony Levier exceeded 600MPH (verified by radar) on several occasions in a dive (he said it was easily controlled to speeds in excess of 560MPH in a dive). The P-38 might bend out of shape, and take a permanent set, or some panels and rivets might come off (other test pilots complained of this when doing dive tests after Levier), but it was rare to have one break up in a dive.
That is not to say it did not happen. One of the Lockheed test pilots was killed when a P-38 DID break up in flight in dive testing. Kelly Johnson said he heard it from inside his office, and figured that the speed was higher than any dive they'd witnessed or recorded. So yes, it is possible to break one up in a dive, or more likely in the pullout (the P-38 was rated 9G+ on the positive, would take even more), but it was not common. Of those that were destroyed in a terminal velocity dive, most were destroyed by the attending collision with terrain.
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I disagree. I think the air frame is fine. It was a very strong air frame. The thing was a monster... well built and made to take a ton of stress.
Unlike a 51, the 38 can't pull right out of a 500mph dive. You can, but you have to use trim. When it does pull out of a dive it doesnt happen fast... And it wont rip the wings off like a 51 because it can't pull out of a dive as hard as a 51. The 51, if you aren't carful, can rip the wings off in an instant because it still has alot of control at 500mph. You dont need to use trim to pull out of a dive most of the time in a 51, just pull back on the stick. Because of that... if you aren't carful and pull too hard, you'll over stress the wings.
You have to think about the kinds of stress that will pull wings off... Flying straight and level, or in a high speed dive... You aren't going to stress the wings enough to pull them off until you rapidly pull out of a dive. At 500mph in a 38, there is no rapid movments. Get it?
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It is Very hard to kill any fighter plane 1 vs 1 if they know about the others existence.
Remember most of us have more trigger time than real pilots had flight hours.
70% of all pilots shot down did not see his enemy.
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There's a counter to the high yo-yo. Those yo-yos are designed to bring the attacker closer and closer to the defender without losing the 6 line, but each time you do it you have to give up visibility for a few seconds. The defender can do nice gentle turns to position for an overshoot while you're still long range, and when he thinks you're getting too co-E for an overshoot he can pull a hard low yo-yo to get around and come up right underneath you. Resulting in 400-600 range shot and forcing the spit to break off for a moment again, regaining seperation. If the spit is cautious he can stay away from these shots, but he'll never saddle.
No those yo yo's are for staying on the enemies 6 without overshooting.. covering more distance but acheiving the same or better geometry angle (or turn rate for the dumbed down version but imo its not turn rate its geometry) to get a solution.
Thats why you high yoyo not to get closer.. closer is bad against the p38 do to its advantage at low speed handling.. I stay roughly 300-400 off my con.. that allows me to react to his movements by giving me more time if he pulls something like you described.. (low yoyo or any hard manuevering)) actually i would counter anything you pull hard (hard manuever with a lag induced barrel roll) if your lucky you may have bought yourself some time (helpfull in the chaos of the ma) but 1 vs 1 you still back to square 1 me on your 6 with hispo's and you a large target..
the 38 is a good aircraft but against the best 1 vs 1 fighter in the game (spit14) its outclassed on nearly all levels..
I think some p38's are deluding themselves...
hell i like the p47 but as a realist it aint going to take on a p38... its outclassed.... same is true with the spit14 vs 38 (any of them)
hell in my opinion the spit9 gives p38 trouble as its he who exploits the weakness first or he who mistakes the first will decide the winner..
no way in hell the p38 is a better dogfighter than the spit14 just no way..
the spitmustang (spit14) rules the ah battlefield just few have experience in it.
DoctorYo
PS: Ack your confusing me as someone who never flys the 38 or p47 or the f4u4.. while the p38 in straight vertical zooms does well it doesn't do too well when you figure its e bleed when turning vs the spit hence my choice of spiral climb over pure vert games which will favor the p38 control at very low speeds to gain radii and angle.. point noted in your scenario but in mine my tactics are sound... now if you said f4u4 vs spit14 then it can follow the spit14 even in such a spiral climb(if it has some speed and they usually do) and may not get a solution but at least it wouldn't be floudering like the p38 after completing such sprial climbs.. just my opinion..
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I wonder how many p38 kills are their detached wing crashing into the shooters winshield? I'm thinking its much better to have the 38 below you when you shoot it.
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Originally posted by DoctorYO
No those yo yo's are for staying on the enemies 6 without overshooting.. covering more distance but acheiving the same or better geometry angle (or turn rate for the dumbed down version but imo its not turn rate its geometry) to get a solution.
Thats why you high yoyo not to get closer.. closer is bad against the p38 do to its advantage at low speed handling.. I stay roughly 300-400 off my con.. that allows me to react to his movements by giving me more time if he pulls something like you described.. (low yoyo or any hard manuevering)) actually i would counter anything you pull hard (hard manuever with a lag induced barrel roll) if your lucky you may have bought yourself some time (helpfull in the chaos of the ma) but 1 vs 1 you still back to square 1 me on your 6 with hispo's and you a large target..
the 38 is a good aircraft but against the best 1 vs 1 fighter in the game (spit14) its outclassed on nearly all levels..
I think some p38's are deluding themselves...
hell i like the p47 but as a realist it aint going to take on a p38... its outclassed.... same is true with the spit14 vs 38 (any of them)
hell in my opinion the spit9 gives p38 trouble as its he who exploits the weakness first or he who mistakes the first will decide the winner..
no way in hell the p38 is a better dogfighter than the spit14 just no way..
the spitmustang (spit14) rules the ah battlefield just few have experience in it.
DoctorYo
PS: Ack your confusing me as someone who never flys the 38 or p47 or the f4u4.. while the p38 in straight vertical zooms does well it doesn't do too well when you figure its e bleed when turning vs the spit hence my choice of spiral climb over pure vert games which will favor the p38 control at very low speeds to gain radii and angle.. point noted in your scenario but in mine my tactics are sound... now if you said f4u4 vs spit14 then it can follow the spit14 even in such a spiral climb(if it has some speed and they usually do) and may not get a solution but at least it wouldn't be floudering like the p38 after completing such sprial climbs.. just my opinion..
If you try to pull high yoyos against me at 300-400 you're in trouble. The low yoyo offers the defender a very fast corner speed turn. If the fight is above corner speed the hard break turn allows the defender to reach corner speed. If it's below the nose down attitude assists the rate. Basically, while you drop below corner speed and waste time conserving E the defender gets around fast. Before you're back nose down he is nose up and below you. Even if you do get around befor he gets into shooting position the high AoT allows for either a forced overshoot, head on, or you disenguage. This is why high yoyos are best used at long range while the attacker is still feeling out his opponent.
Maybe your high yoyo works on some of the MA dweebs, but once you fight people who know how to use that AoT you're going to need a lot more tricks.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The 51, if you aren't carful, can rip the wings off in an instant because it still has alot of control at 500mph.
Heh, how well I know that!
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yep 38 vators fall off if its pigged out.
then u get to fly home by using engine yaw.
if fighting 38L dont get greedy and break contact once nearing coE
38J dive and let em compress
38G like killing a target drone, cept 14% more fun.
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Originally posted by AmRaaM
38J dive and let em compress
Try that maneuver against an experienced P-38 flyer and you'll soon find it doesn't work as well as you thought it would. Compressability in all P-38s is only a threat above 20,000ft. Below that the P-38 can dive with anything and most of the experienced P-38 players have no troubles getting their plane 500mph and retain control. Buffeting will make controls sluggish but that is true with the plane you're chasing too and if it's a Spitfire (any model) it's not going to shake the P-38 by trying to dive away.
ack-ack