Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on June 26, 2005, 10:37:32 PM
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Hi All,
Preached this morning on Christ purging the temple of the "Den of Thieves" in Luke 19:45-48. I was reminded, as I did so of the many hideous "jesus junk" catalogs I receive every month at our church and the following email I wrote to some other ministers last winter. Thought some of you might enjoy it (ok, so its minister to minister humor, I hope it translates) -
I've been having a rather difficult week, so it was quite a blessing to finally receive the Christmas edition of the "Oriental Trading Company's Celebration of Faith Catalog"
Here are some of the items that gave me a particularly warm and fuzzy feeling:
Amongst the items you can get branded with the "Jesus Loves You Snow Much" slogan (with a snowman holding a heart):
*Jesus Loves You Snow Much Punch Balls
*Jesus Loves You Snow Much Angels Votive Holder (4 Snowman Angels surround a votive candle like the witches from MacBeth - except with crazed smiles and no useful information about future events)
*Jesus Loves You Snow Much Kickballs
Items you can get branded with the "HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS" slogan
*"Happy Birthday Jesus!" Slap Bracelets
*"Happy Birthday Jesus!" Religious Holiday Party Bag (complete with *"Happy Birthday Jesus" Paddleball so you celebrate Xmas by teaching the kids to whack a second commandment violation "baby jesus" repeatedly in the head. BTW- "Religious Holiday"? What is this a public school?)
Items you can get branded with the (my favorite) "Snowflakes are Angel Kisses" slogan
* New! Glitter "Snowflakes are Angel Kisses" Tattoos (I'm still waiting for the "Snowflakes" body piercing kit)
Items you can get branded with the "Jesus is Deer to Me" slogan (with deer holding heart)
* Foam "Jesus is Deer to Me!" Visors (complete with foam antlers - great for serious witnessing)
One of my favorites: "Believe" Blocks (each is a letter with part of a twee nativity scene) the caveat is what I particularly enjoyed: Simple Assembly Required (Imagine all the poor shleps who didn't read that and now have "BEEVILE" on their mantle)
Miscellaneous Twee Abominations:
* New! Plush Bean Bag Bears with Religious Candy Cane (Ok, Spot the Irony: each one comes with card with "The meaning of the Candy Cane" story printed on it - here are the last two lines - "...the color red represents the blood Jesus shed for us. Made in China")
* Felt "Jesus Warms My Heart" Gingerbread Man Sucker Covers (I thought these go over the head of anyone who buys from the catalog, but they are apparently for lollipops)
* New! Foam "Jesus Warms My Heart" Dart Board (you win by hitting the heart in the center - now there's a sermon illustration for you)
* [Think about this one] Paper "Jesus is the Reason for the Season!" Goody Bags (no, really...)
* Felt Mary, Joseph, and Jesus Snowmen (also available in ornament size - well I guess the black or white portrayal issue is moot now...)
* Plastic Cross Bubble Bottles (almost as good as the Plastic Cross light-up "Jesus Lights the Way" Glitter wands and or Plastic Cross Religious Spinning Lights - which I'm guessing would make your kids look like a cross between Luke Skywalker and the Pope - either way the sacrifice on Calvary is front and center with these...)
* Plush Velour Rainbow Faith Bears - QUOTE: "Each bear includes an explanation of the colors of the rainbow" (ah yes, the rainbow color explanation from 2nd Hezekiah, always a favorite in my house...)
Ho, Ho, Ho, No,
Seagoon
Off to bed...
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Henh. I'm often amazed by folks who are pastors, ministers, priests, shamans or rabbi's getting annoyed at another business making money peddeling Jesus. Idolators? I think not. Organized religion is the oldest, largest, least prductive industry in history..
So, If I may be so bold as to inquire.. how much was on the collection plate Sunday, pastor?
Please understand.. I'm not questioning your faith, or quality as a human being.. I am questioning your seeming inability to allow others to pursue their lives or professions as they see fit. It's my belief that Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. It follows in my world that all other sins are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful--just stupid.) Which leads me to politely ask.. what are your motives when you question the rights of 'idolators' to share in the profits of the holy 'franchise'?
You, sir; may safely preach your bit against the abominators in your church.. but here, in this place, you are not in your church... we are not your brethern, we have not asked to be harangued here for the percived sins of others who challenge the primacy of your faith by being so bold as to profit by it's dissemination without a cut for the formal church elders.
It is true, the profession of 'Pastor' has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the preacher is on the moral level of any other con man... including the 'abominators'.
But I imagine it is lovely work if you can stomach it.
It is also a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. The danger is real.
Balance.. and respect in all things. I do not object to the preachings of any man's religious beliefs in the privacy of his church.. but when I see an agent of the church (any church) publicly attempt to cast upon any 'competitor' the mantle of 'abominator' my hackles tend to rise.. there's belivers enuff out there for all of you... cast not your eye upon another groups ways and means lest your own be called to account.
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It is also a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics. The danger is real.
As an historian, I'll say that it certainly is a truism, that is, something that seems true but isn't.
As someone who's not particularly religious (my father's an unbaptised Catholic, and that's about as close to believing as my family gets), that kind of tasteless glurge is an abomination unto God, even if He doesn't exist. In the halls of abominations, it's right up there with Christian Rock and the Slaughter of the Innocents. As for pastors, and their vocation, I'd suggest what they do outside of Sunday in the church is of far greater value to their congregation and to society as a whole. Sure, there are charlatans, and tricksters, and to people raised in a society where most things can be had via a monetary transaction, of course there will be folks who will claim to offer spiritual well being/salvation/whatever for a "modest fee", just as there are people who will pay that fee, and people who will claim that, in fact, that is what all professional religious do. But that doesn't change the fact that most pastors, priests, rabbis, imams, and other religious leaders spend their time overeducated, underpaid, working to what they see, and what usually is, the benefit of other human beings.
Frankly, I consider Civilization itself to be one of the largest, and most destructive forces in natural history.
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Boy did this thread go downhill in a hurry.
Thanks Seagoon. Thought Im not what even the most liberal could really call religeous.
I actually got what you were getting at and was amused.
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This is a legendary weekend for FDBs putting their feet in their mouths.
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^^ ... and this is somehow unexpected? :D
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I got big feet. ;)
I saw the pastor's post diffrently than Drediock did apparently.. I've seen the Oriental Trading Co's catalogue before.. and while I agree it's tasteless, even funny in it's hideous skewed look of western comercialism implemented by some oriental marketing genius, I sure do object to the 'pot calling the kettle black' stance the pastor is seeming to take by impuning that it is a sin.
Or did I misinterpet the inference of religious blasphemy implied by the use of the word 'abomination' by a pastor of the cloth?
Pardon the mumbling.. my foots still stuck in my mouth..
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
This is a legendary weekend for FDBs putting their feet in their mouths.
Says the only chick member of the FDBs. Put yer dress back on and get back in the kitchen where you belong, I need some wings!
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I respect anyone's religion, provided they aren't strapping a bomb to their back. That said...
I consider all those 'Jesus Saves' and other novelty items people buy to be just like all those 'yellow ribbon' decals people are putting on their cars in alleged support of the troops.
Those 'yellow ribbon' decals are made in China and do nothing for our troops, they should instead donate the money to a charity to show thier support instead, like the USO for example.
Those religious items are exactly the same, useless for public display except for making the individual displaying them feel good themselves where they money would be best spent practicing their beliefs like feeding and caring for the poor.
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Seagoon. Thanks for the chuckle. Now I gotta go switch the speeling on my mantle.:rofl
Cheers,
RTR
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I respect everyones religion so long as it doesn't affect me.
lazs
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Hang,
I saw Seagoon’s post more as a humorous observation than a criticism of religion based capitalism. I mean, read the stuff on the list; its pure “gag me with Jesus smarm”. I find it a relief that a preacher finds this stuff to be ridiculous. No straight man, no matter how close to God, should be less than repulsed by this crap:
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_1051.jpg)
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_1107.jpg)
Come on, "Do You See What I See?" Silli-Goo. Mix the colors, bounce it, stretch it and pull it! Each with wiggle eyes. Assorted colors.
I don’t know whether to throw up or laugh first.
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_783.jpg)
8 1/4" Plastic Light-Up "Jesus Lights The Way" Glitter Wands. Assorted colors. Requires two "AA" batteries, sold separately
eskimo
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If you like that stuff, you'll love this (http://www.nycwebstore.com/category3.asp?txtsearchParamTxt=&txtsearchParamCat=29&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch&iLevel=1).
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(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_961.jpg)
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_133.jpg)
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/17_144.jpg)
16" "Smile! Jesus Loves You" Punch Balls. Assorted colors with rubber band handles.
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/39_1094a.jpg)
7 1/2" Plastic "Clap For The Lord" Clappers. Assorted Neon Colors
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_317.jpg)
eskimo
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Ya know... if they had a "Jesus Loves Me" beer cooler, that would be nice. :)
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Hello Hangtime,
Ok, I've counted to ten and spent some time praying, so god willing I should be good to go.
I posted the examples from the catalog purely for laughs, at the time I figured that even the most militant anti-theist would see the ironic humor in marketing a goody bag with the slogan "Jesus is the Reason for the Season!" but I guess not, my mistake, please accept my apologies for not realizing in advance how this would affect you.
Originally posted by Hangtime
So, If I may be so bold as to inquire.. how much was on the collection plate Sunday, pastor?
To be absolutely honest, I don't know. My deacon and a couple of volunteer helpers (who are all unpaid members of the congregation) handle the collection. I do not even get to see who is giving what. All I see is the final budget with the line items. I receive a salary which amounts to less than half of my family income when I was still a Sys. Admin. before I started Seminary full-time in 1996. Seminary also wiped out our family savings, incidently. My salary is roughly equivalent to the salary of a 2nd Lt. starting out here in Fayetteville, although I have far less take home due to the fact that I have to pay out of pocket for housing and medical for my family. Additionally 10% of my own gross income is tithed and then we give charitably over that amount.
[Frankly, I am not all that comfortable sharing things like that, I strongly believe in Christ's admonition "But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly." But unfortunately this is at least the second time I've been forced to put this information out in order to defend the honor of Christ's ministry, because I am hardly the only minister in similar circumstances, I know of several in my own Presbytery who are considerably worse off than me - especially those laboring in mill towns.]
Due to the expenses of our rent and things like diaconal giving (last year we gave around 15K away to those in need - which for a church of around 60 members at the time was a sizable percentage) , we are currently operating at a slight loss each month. Both my salary and the budget are public and published on a yearly and monthly basis, you can obtain copies of both by writing to the church via the link in my sig - how about yours?
Which leads me to politely ask.. what are your motives when you question the rights of 'idolators' to share in the profits of the holy 'franchise'?
Share in the profits? Hangtime, let me try to explain the difference via a section from the actual sermon I preached yesterday:
One of the quickest ways you can spot false religion is it emphasis on this: money
Whether it is a high priest who bought his office from the Romans and used it to enrich himself and his family, or Popes who sold indulgences and the offices of the church in order to stock the coffers of the vatican, or Bishops who bought their offices in order to tax the sheep, or Cults who use their followers like cash cows, or Televangelists who peddle phoney healing prayer cloths in order to purchase mansions and limos, or the people who subscribe to the "give to get" theology. It is all a sign of the same corruption and selfishness and avarice that has afflicted men since the fall. It is a taking of the church, and making it into a den of thieves.
What a contrast that is to Christ himself who confessed "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." I heard a televangelist explaining that Jesus meant that his advance team hadn't yet booked his accommodations in that city, not that he was poor. What a travesty.
Brothers and Sisters remember that Paul had to fund his missions via his own labor as a tent-maker, and virtually every giant of the Christian faith has either been poor or had just enough to get by, because you see they understood well that you cannot serve both God and Mammon and that with great wealth there are huge temptations. I've been reading Dallimore's excellent little biography of Charles Haddon Spurgeon of late and it is notable that Spurgeon himself could have been quite rich, with the sales of his books and sermons, constant contributions from benefactors and anonymous donors, and even presents from his own congregation that they begged him to keep – and yet again and again he and his wife gave the vast majority of their money away and plowed it back into various ministries and benevolent organizations. So that the Spurgeons often had to economize themselves. This despite the fact that both Spurgeon and his wife suffered from chronically bad health.
Kids, the 23rd Psalm says "The Lord is my…" what? Shepherd. Shepherd's take care of what kind of animals? Sheep. And that is what we are supposed to be Christ's sheep. Now real shepherds love the sheep and are willing even to die for them if they have to. Just like Jesus, the Good Shepherd, gave his life for you and me.
Now let me ask you, do wolves love Sheep? No they only love to eat the sheep. Well the Apostle Paul warned you in Acts 20:29 to watch out for wolves in the church. Now he wasn't saying that you should worry that a real wolf was going to come into the church building. The wolves he was talking about are people who don't really love you, but just want to gobble up what you have.
A Desire for riches amongst the leaders of the church is almost always a sign that the man is not a Shepherd, but a wolf. Beware of him."
It is true, the profession of 'Pastor' has many advantages. It offers high status with a safe livelihood free of work in the dreary, sweaty sense. In most societies it offers legal privileges and immunities not granted to other men. But it is hard to see how a man who has been given a mandate from on High to spread tidings of joy to all mankind can be seriously interested in taking up a collection to pay his salary; it causes one to suspect that the preacher is on the moral level of any other con man... including the 'abominators'.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the paragraph above. Would that it were in any sense true.
Hang, forgive me for asking, but when was the last time you officiated at a funeral, grieved with the relatives, sat with a dying man in hospital and held his hand as he passed away, counseled couples tearing each other apart, discovered terrible addictions in the life of one of the members of your congregation and then met with them weekly (at no charge) to counsel them and move them towards recovery, gone through the awful trial of necessary church discipline, spoken again and again with wives and children terribly wounded by the infidelity of husbands, carried food to the sick, taught two bible studies, a Sunday School, a childrens catechism class, and prepared and preached two sermons every week of the year with only one "day off" a week - that usually got interrupted? I ask because that's just a small part of the pastoral ministry that I and countless other men are committed to performing.
As for high status or esteem, that I suppose would be nice, but the average low view of Pastors (your opinions above, especially amongst young people in the Western world, are depressingly common) at least keeps one humble and committed to the idea that rewards are not something to be found or desired in this present evil age.
As far as legal privilleges and immunities, please tell me what they are? I pay taxes on the sales, local, state, and federal level as a self-employed worker. I know of no privilieges I enjoy that are not open to any member of the congregation. In fact as members of the military, they often have privileges I don't (comissary, BX/PX, discounts offered by merchants, etc.) Oh, wait, I do remember one, I have a couple of "pastors" parking slots at the local hospital when I am making visitations to the sick. Usually a non-clergy member has already scooped it up because everyone realizes there is no fine like there is with the handicapped spaces.
As far as not getting paid a salary to do what I do, that would also entail being starving and homeless. I spend more time at work now than I ever did working in advertising, retail, or computers, and there have been far more times in this job I've simply thought I was going to crumble entirely, particulary last year when several families in our church went through some awful crises and we were going through the minor hell of trying to renovate a building according to the draconian "assembly code."
Additionally, in the secular world my family was under far, far, less stress. I can't really think of one thing that is "easier" since I decided to go to seminary (except maybe falling asleep). But hey, I was warned about counting the cost ahead of time and told "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" so I am not complaining, merely trying desperately to share with you the actual shape of a Pastors life.
Then again, I accept that you believe that my job consists largely of peddling silly and offensive fairy tales and brain washing poor uneducated people for a few minutes each Sunday and that in between that I spend my time sitting around like Smaug on the big pile of mega-bucks I am raking in.
Well sincere apologies to all for being a big downer in what I hoped was a humorous thread.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Hang,
I saw Seagoon’s post more as a humorous observation than a criticism of religion based capitalism. I mean, read the stuff on the list; its pure “gag me with Jesus smarm”. I find it a relief that a preacher finds this stuff to be ridiculous. No straight man, no matter how close to God, should be less than repulsed by this crap:
Come on, "Do You See What I See?" Silli-Goo. Mix the colors, bounce it, stretch it and pull it! Each with wiggle eyes. Assorted colors.
I don’t know whether to throw up or laugh first.
eskimo
Eskimo.. you may be right.. Dred picked it up that way too, so It's probable I'm way off the mark. I apparently reacted poorly to the post, whut with Jesus casting out the theives from the temple and whatnot..
But why 'throw up'? They are just trinkets.. and the lil kids in some distant country that made this stuff have gotta eat too..
I'm not anti-religion.. just anti 'holier than thou' religionist 'tut-tut-tut' BS.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Well sincere apologies to all for being a big downer in what I hoped was a humorous thread.
- SEAGOON
I though it was funny. Pictures help I think.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Hangtime
But why 'throw up'? They are just trinkets.. and the lil kids in some distant country that made this stuff have gotta eat too..
Smarm doesn't at least make you gag?
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_961.jpg)
How big is your Precious Moments collection?
eskimo
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I'm not anti-religion..
:rolleyes:
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Seagoon,
I mean no offense, nor do I doubt what you have posted here above (can I say that?) ... but if you're trying to sel me that the church is poor, I think you need to do a trip to the Vatican city... you are in for a surprise.
Respectfully,
Saw (who visited VC in 1988)
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Dire ça à un protestant :)
A mon avis il va se poiler :D
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Originally posted by straffo /translated
Saying this to a protestant :)I think he'll have a laugh :D
Ooops :o
Sorry, I'm not knowledgable in those matters... is there a difference?
Saw (runs very fast)
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Seagoon,
I mean no offense, nor do I doubt what you have posted here above (can I say that?) ... but if you're trying to sel me that the church is poor, I think you need to do a trip to the Vatican city... you are in for a surprise.
Respectfully,
Saw (who visited VC in 1988)
“The” implies one. The Vatican is the head of the Catholic Church. Seagoon is a Presbyterian minister; different church altogether. Many churches operate solely on parishioner’s contributions. Some small churches in less affluent areas have no paid positions. Some of the more famous and televised churches have grossly wealthy leaders. Seagoon’s church is not wealthy.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Seagoon,
I mean no offense, nor do I doubt what you have posted here above (can I say that?) ... but if you're trying to sel me that the church is poor, I think you need to do a trip to the Vatican city... you are in for a surprise.
Respectfully,
Saw (who visited VC in 1988)
Saintaw,
I am not for a moment contending that there have been wolves in the house of God who have made it into a den of thieves, Christ himself pointed that out and John informs us that Judas himself dipped into the bag reserved for charitable provision: "Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, "Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?" This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it." (John 12:6)
I even made that point, specifically referring to Vatican in the quote from my sermon. What I was objecting to was Hang's contention that making money is the purpose of the ministry and that it is with that ends in view that the majority of men become Pastors. True Christianity is a heart religion, not a vain questing after the things of this world. As Jesus said: "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?"
EDIT: What Eskimo said also applies, thanks Eskimo.
- SEAGOON
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Saw,
Don't let the fact that much of the splendor you saw was paid for long ago deter you either. :rolleyes:
Seagoon,
I saw what you posted as being tongue in cheeck as well. Don't sweat the occasional Philistine who takes themselves too seriously and posts otherwise. I do include myself in that category as well. :p
Eskimo, the pix were priceless thanks a bunch for them.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Smarm doesn't at least make you gag?
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_961.jpg)
How big is your Precious Moments collection?
eskimo
Hard to believe anyone with any taste isn't repulsed by these abominable snowmen:
(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/95_1329.jpg)
Incidentally, that's what I was referring to when I mentioned "well I guess the black or white portrayal issue is moot now"
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
EDIT: What Eskimo said also applies, thanks Eskimo.
- SEAGOON
NP, Son of a poor preacher-man here.
BTW,
This may have gone better had you titled it: “You might be gay if you’re a man and you’re not repulsed by…”
eskimo
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Seagoon.. my apologies for any personal offense.. such was not my intent. Your profession is an honorable one, but not above (in my view) others outside of religion that also serve humanity...
You ask:
Hang, forgive me for asking, but when was the last time you officiated at a funeral, grieved with the relatives, sat with a dying man in hospital and held his hand as he passed away, counseled couples tearing each other apart, discovered terrible addictions in the life of one of the members of your congregation and then met with them weekly (at no charge) to counsel them and move them towards recovery, gone through the awful trial of necessary church discipline, spoken again and again with wives and children terribly wounded by the infidelity of husbands, carried food to the sick, taught two bible studies, a Sunday School, a childrens catechism class, and prepared and preached two sermons every week of the year with only one "day off" a week - that usually got interrupted? I ask because that's just a small part of the pastoral ministry that I and countless other men are committed to performing.
Pastor, forgive the strident tone of my post.. and understand that most of these things I have done (as have countless others), and suffered in the course of living our lives, serving our nations, succoring our families, assisting our friends and rearing our children. Strength to live life honorably and endure does not always come from a pulpit.
It is my opinion that you are a good man, an honest one, one giving to others beyond the call of living your life quietly; you've opened your heart and mind to others in need. This is beyond commendable.. I honor you for it. I do not envy your assumed burden.
I am not challenging the good you've done, or will do.. I challenge the label of 'abominator', I challenge any man who would claim his religion as the 'one true faith' and challenge any man who would hang the tag of 'sinner' upon another for simply selling toys, ge-gaws or trinkets.
Again, my aplologies for any insult.. no personal disrespect was intended.
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The difference between Pastors living off the generosity of their congregation and the people marketing these rediculous trinkets is that one party is looking for personal profit while the other is out to help other people.
Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with making a living, but to do it at the expense of religion is not what Christianity is all about.
Seagoon, I found your post to be quite amusing and right on target. My favorite has always been the made up Bible superhero costumes complete with mask and cape.
Don't be discouraged by negative feed back. As a pastor you will always get flak from some. Although I don't always agree with everything, I for one have always been interested in what you have to say.
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As far as the Vatican goes -- I was there last week (4 days, on business), and yeah, there are some nice and pretty things. But since I walked through a few parking lots on my way to the library, I also made it a point to check the make and model of the Vatican City-registered cars (="staff cars"). The Catholic church may have some glorious bits of wealth, but the rank-and-file priests and religious who are on the "shepherd side" of the catholic church are by and large not swimming in cash. Once you get to the higher levels of power, things may be different, but I doubt it.
On the other hand Boccaccio, in his Decameron (first came out around 1353) tells the story of a couple of virtuous businessmen in Paris: one Christian and one Jew. They were the best of friends, and shared in nearly everything they did. Of course, the Christian would try from time to time to convince the Jew to convert to Christianity. Finally, the Jewish merchant went to his friend, and said, "Alright, I've thought a lot about what you've said, and I'm willing to consider conversion. But first, let me go to Rome and see how well your religion is led."
At this the Christian merchant despaired greatly, for he knew that if the merchant went to Rome [I know, I know, the papal court was in Avignon at the time Boccaccio wrote], he would see what wicked and vice-ridden lives the pope and the prelates led, and all the Christian's hopes for his friend's conversion would be lost. So he tried and tried to dissuade him from going. But the Jewish merchant would have none of it, and insisted. To the great dismay of the Christian, the Jew went to Rome. The devout catholic knew that his friend would stay forever in the beliefs of his fathers.
When the Jew came back, he went straight to his friend and said, "okay, I've decided. Let's get me baptized straight away."
The Christian was dumbfounded: "But didn't you see the pope and the cardinals, and all their entourage, and what gluttonous, luxurious sinful lives they had?"
The Jew replied "I did" [and at this point, Boccaccio becomes his most poetic, with a full description of male and female prostitutes, drunkenness, gambling, gluttony, and every other vice known to man, blown way out of proportion in what the Italian poet Petrarch, writing at the same time, called "the New Babylon"].
The Christian asked "But why do you want to convert then?"
The Jew replied, "Well, I saw the Church is so poorly governed by these scoundrels, who do everything in the power to diminish the Church's authority and destroy its presence on Earth, and yet everywhere you look, the numbers of Christians aren't decreasing, but rather increasing, I decided that there can be no human explanation for this popularity: God alone can explain its spread."
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Then again, I accept that you believe that my job consists largely of peddling silly and offensive fairy tales and brain washing poor uneducated people for a few minutes each Sunday and that in between that I spend my time sitting around like Smaug on the big pile of mega-bucks I am raking in.
sadly Seagoon.... i have come to this thought (or similar) and it has mostly overwhelmed me.
i do not work in any way with the Church, but when it comes to religious discussions lately, here and in real life, the attacks and thoughts of the ministry are so strong, and insuating, i have adopted this exact line of thinking you are on in the quote above. i feel guilty, but at the same time glad i haven't stooped down to their level and gotten personal, and downright mean.
it is hard to explain, but i mentally give a giant to people who make comments like that, and just don't bother with them as i get to infuriated to make a good example of Christ.
just had to get that off my chest.
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Those snowmen a largely less ugly than this guy and his brother on TV :
(http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/televangelists/jimmy-swaggart/swaggart_songbook.jpg)
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I don't find much humor in the word "abomination". I see what hangtime is trying to say to a point. "Chickenhawk" pretty much hit the middle ground there.
The only thing that I find truly irritating about crap like this is that people use it to define a religion. "Aren't Christians wacko?!" and then post pictures. The truth is, I don't know many christian famillies that have this kind of crap floating around. No more so than families that have purchased chrystals and stones for their healing effects.
I can see this being an abomination. I don't see that as being a particularly light-weight hahaha kind of subject.
I definately don't see this as an argument over who is most rigtheous.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Saw,
Don't let the fact that much of the splendor you saw was paid for long ago deter you either. :rolleyes:
Maverick,
You mean stolen for during the medieval ages...? Surely they would have come to their senses by now & 'give it away to the poor' ... should they not? Let me spell it for you:
h y p o c r i s y (I'm not sure of the spelling, but I'm sure you'll understand... me being close to the french & all)
Don't use the rolleyes, it will get you edited by the
Seagoon & Eskimo:
I noticed the "protestant" word in Straffo's reply... I didn't pay attention to this beforehand.
Hangtime, do you have a spare foot for me? It seems mine are not big enough :D
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Damn post editing limiter
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Hangtime, do you have a spare foot for me? It seems mine are not big enough :D
Since Dred's seems to be busted, here's one, ready to use. ;)
(http://www.largecow.demon.co.uk/gallery/cartoons/foot.jpg)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Since Dred's seems to be busted, here's one, ready to use. ;)
QUOTE]
Mouth in foot? LMAO
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(http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/5592/v62/image.orientaltrading.com/otcimg/36_133.jpg)
What kind of bloody heathen can't appreciate a Jesus Loves Me kazoo? Sometimes you people just go too far, and this is one of those times. Don't EVER talk down about the kazoos again. :mad:
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On behalf of anyone that might have mocked the Kazoo directly and thus also mocked your Kazoo playing skills, I apologize. Please, don't ever stop playing.
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Saw, they have receipts for those items. Just go back there and ask nicely to see them. Ya know given about 2000 years ANYONE tends to collect a few things. :rolleyes:
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Aw they are just cheap old protestant versions of the glowing plastic Mary and Jesus, the luminous rosary beads and the 3d picture of Jesus that my ex wife's Catholic Grandma had all over the place!
The Catholics were at the Idolatry business long before all this tat hit the shelves!:lol :lol
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Somehow on a basic level it makes sense that skydancer would be on a thread about abominations.....:p
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Some of these posts are disgusting.
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Right... the opposition should not be allowed to post, so you can have a nice monologue & pat eatch other on the back.
Do I dare use a rolleye?
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If you do, I'll kick you in the groin.
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(http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/ups/chaos/big1.gif)
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Then Saint'll be Holden McGroin.
..did I just say that?
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MMM Maverik!
No comment :rolleyes:
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I know I'm late (story of my life...) but I think Hangtime is selling "Power from Jesus" batteries :D
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Right... the opposition should not be allowed to post, so you can have a nice monologue & pat eatch other on the back.
Do I dare use a rolleye?
Youre a big, tough man, Mr. Opposition! Fight the power!
This is what your fighting against...
Originally posted by Seagoon
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read the paragraph above. Would that it were in any sense true.
Hang, forgive me for asking, but when was the last time you officiated at a funeral, grieved with the relatives, sat with a dying man in hospital and held his hand as he passed away, counseled couples tearing each other apart, discovered terrible addictions in the life of one of the members of your congregation and then met with them weekly (at no charge) to counsel them and move them towards recovery, gone through the awful trial of necessary church discipline, spoken again and again with wives and children terribly wounded by the infidelity of husbands, carried food to the sick, taught two bible studies, a Sunday School, a childrens catechism class, and prepared and preached two sermons every week of the year with only one "day off" a week - that usually got interrupted? I ask because that's just a small part of the pastoral ministry that I and countless other men are committed to performing.
As for high status or esteem, that I suppose would be nice, but the average low view of Pastors (your opinions above, especially amongst young people in the Western world, are depressingly common) at least keeps one humble and committed to the idea that rewards are not something to be found or desired in this present evil age.
As far as legal privilleges and immunities, please tell me what they are? I pay taxes on the sales, local, state, and federal level as a self-employed worker. I know of no privilieges I enjoy that are not open to any member of the congregation. In fact as members of the military, they often have privileges I don't (comissary, BX/PX, discounts offered by merchants, etc.) Oh, wait, I do remember one, I have a couple of "pastors" parking slots at the local hospital when I am making visitations to the sick. Usually a non-clergy member has already scooped it up because everyone realizes there is no fine like there is with the handicapped spaces.
As far as not getting paid a salary to do what I do, that would also entail being starving and homeless. I spend more time at work now than I ever did working in advertising, retail, or computers, and there have been far more times in this job I've simply thought I was going to crumble entirely, particulary last year when several families in our church went through some awful crises and we were going through the minor hell of trying to renovate a building according to the draconian "assembly code."
Additionally, in the secular world my family was under far, far, less stress. I can't really think of one thing that is "easier" since I decided to go to seminary (except maybe falling asleep). But hey, I was warned about counting the cost ahead of time and told "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" so I am not complaining, merely trying desperately to share with you the actual shape of a Pastors life.
Then again, I accept that you believe that my job consists largely of peddling silly and offensive fairy tales and brain washing poor uneducated people for a few minutes each Sunday and that in between that I spend my time sitting around like Smaug on the big pile of mega-bucks I am raking in.
Well sincere apologies to all for being a big downer in what I hoped was a humorous thread.
- SEAGOON
Bet your mother is proud.
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Your original post was funny. Sad you got blasted for it.
Do you have a place to hear your Sermons online?
I ask because the church I am a member of has it. Not that that has any relevance. My brother is a minister. He spoke last Sunday.
My maternal grandfather and ferternal grandfather were both ministers. My brother is. Both uncles are deacons and on the church board. My wife and I work in the youth ministry. Although as of late we have spent MUCH more time at home on sundays with my Mom who has cancer.
Sometime I would like to hear you speak.
Take care
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Originally posted by RedTop
Your original post was funny. Sad you got blasted for it.
Do you have a place to hear your Sermons online?
I ask because the church I am a member of has it. Not that that has any relevance. My brother is a minister. He spoke last Sunday.
Hi Redtop,
9 of my sermons are currently available online at the sermons section of our site here (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/index.html)
I would recommend starting with the "Castles made of Sand" Sermon which is fairly recent and representative.
We are planning on moving to Sermonaudio.com which will allow us to host all of our sermons online - we are currently getting killed by bandwith overage charges.
I'd be very interested in hearing your brothers sermon if you have a link.
Thanks,
SEAGOON
PS: Sorry to hear about your mother, please send me her first name and I'll add her to our prayer list.
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Keep up the good work, Sea.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Redtop,
9 of my sermons are currently available online at the sermons section of our site here (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/index.html)
I would recommend starting with the "Castles made of Sand" Sermon which is fairly recent and representative.
We are planning on moving to Sermonaudio.com which will allow us to host all of our sermons online - we are currently getting killed by bandwith overage charges.
I'd be very interested in hearing your brothers sermon if you have a link.
Thanks,
SEAGOON
PS: Sorry to hear about your mother, please send me her first name and I'll add her to our prayer list.
My Moms name is Wanda. That would be really appreciated Sea.
My Church is http://www.churchofthehills.org There you will find the sermons.
I'll listen to yours...Be very inetrested in them for sure. Thanks
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The humor was obvious, at least to me. But then I'm a neoconservative, overly religious, fundamentalist Christian,
rightwing gun nut.
Having seen what true servants of God go through, and how well they are compensated in this life, I don't expect to see that new Cadillac in the driveway of your 3000 square foot five bedroom two story for a few more weeks. I hope the staff is adequate to take care of you and your family, since you have nothing to do except for Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday night, I'm sure you will all get bored.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Redtop,
9 of my sermons are currently available online at the sermons section of our site here (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/index.html)
I listened to the Castles made of Sand one.... and echo Toad's sentiment. Very good!
I dunno... There's a certain sort of.... It's not crusty, nor is it hyper, and it's not lofty...
It's kind of.... of my generation or something. It sounds real.
Nice stuff.
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Originally posted by Nash
I listened to the Castles made of Sand
Hendrix knows... errr knew his stuff :)
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Thanks Nash, I am sincerely heartened, that is encouragement indeed.
BTW - just out of interest, arising from when you said "my generation" I always imagined us to be about the same age - I'm 35 (36 next month - time flies, hair falls).
Soli Deo Gloria,
SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Staga
Hendrix knows... errr knew his stuff :)
sigh....
Yep.
Dead too early.
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Just turned 36 Seagoon. :)
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Originally posted by Nash
Just turned 36 Seagoon. :)
Punk. ;)
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BTW - Staga, so did the man in black. That's one of the only advantages of having an ecclectic taste in music, I get to hear a lot of different takes on life and some of them are profound indeed. I'm glad my congregation forgives my habit of choosing bizzarre sermon illustrations... Label on a Can of Raid One Week, Life of Django Reinhardt the next.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Punk. ;)
lol I know...
worse thing is... I feel like about 24. :D
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Originally posted by Nash
lol I know...
worse thing is... I feel like about 24. :D
No sir. That is the BEST thing. Sooner or later, preferrably the latter, the mind is willing but the body just isn't able. ;)
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Yup.... we're all screwed.... eventually.
Ya know... Folks here from time to time have requested seperate forums. Like, a politics forum. Or a religion forum. I still say and will continue to say that the next forum will be the "Geezers Forum" and we're gonna ***** about pain and the decline of civilization and stuff.
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35 years old and griping already fer a geezers forum.
Amazing.
The exuberence of youth.
;)
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Not griping....
Just foresight. :)
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Possible threads for the Geezer Forum
"Get Off My Lawn"
"Which Knee hurts more when it Rains?"
"The Prices Today... "
"Why are the portions at Sizzler so small?"
"Catskills or Palm Beach?"
"Penny Slots!!!"
"My Son the Doctor"
"I... Can't remember what I was going to post"
- SEAGOON
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"Ring of Fire" is one of my favourites and so is "Highwayman"
I fly a starship across the Universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
But I will remain
And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again...
Nice to see youngsters like Nash and Seagoon like good music :D
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The humor was obvious, at least to me. But then I'm a neoconservative, overly religious, fundamentalist Christian,
rightwing gun nut.
/agree
:p
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Originally posted by straffo
/agree
:p
:D
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originally posted by Hangtime
I challenge any man who would claim his religion as the 'one true faith' and challenge any man who would hang the tag of 'sinner' upon another
Hangtime, I think i see better where you're coming from now. I've noticed in the few threads in which we've both posted that "religious" stuff brings out an almost visceral reaction. (My sample size is small, so forgive me if I'm wrong -- I've only recently been visiting O'Club.) I'd gotten the impression that you...ummmm... had strongly negative feelings about anything to do with God stuff.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it now occurs to me that maybe the issue is something different -- with the self righteous, self satisfied, superior attitudes many religious people unfortunately carry?
At the risk of setting up a straw man jsut to knock it down, let me say that many Christians have the same reaction. In our household, we call it "being churchie." The subculture of (for want of a better image) Bible belt, church going, polyester wearing, dark sedan driving, Holy-on-Sunday but like-everybody-else-otherwise people sticks in my craw.
And judging from what the Bible says, it pretty much sticks in God's figurative craw as well. If interested, I can throw some references at you -- but I'll let it suffice to say that the book is chock full of tidbits addressed to such folk like "brood of serpents," and my personal favorite image "whitewashed tombs" full of death inside. Jesus specifically taught that the religious guy who could think "Thank God I'm not like that sinner over there" was in serious trouble, probably in more trouble than the sinner in question. Jesus consistantly gave more respect to the honest than the pretentious.
What you're giving Seagoon credit for -- the evidence of his life -- is what christians SHOULD be all about. Like this:
Matt:35-40
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' .
Not that religious people are supposed to do this stuff to earn "God points", but that when our innermost people become what we were made to be, good stuff jsut flows out as expression of character. Notice in the snippet above that the people in question didnt even think what they were doing was related to Jesus.
When the Life is inside, people jsut seem like good folk -- more interested in others than in their own stories, willing to go out of the way to help, understanding that even if they disagree with your choices YOU are an infinitely worthwhile person.
Christianity is absolutely NOT about the buildings and the glitter of gold, it's not about looking religious or holy or better than sinners; it's about people becoming the hands and feet of GOd on earth.
I guess I'm saying that it might be worth trying to see the Church -- and the people who act like they're fixtures in the "sanctuary" -- as less representative of christianity, and to see the people of faith like Seagoon (sorry bro, I know that'll give you the willies) are maybe more what Jesus had in mind...
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"Churchie". Priceless. ;) Nailed it..
Thanks for the kind reply.
The faith in which I was brought up assured me that I was better than other people; I was saved, they were damned ...Our hymns were loaded with arrogance -- self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us, what hell everybody else would catch come Judgment Day.
Thanks to the experiences of my adolescence and youth, I've since carried a dim view of those that take a 'holier than thou' attitude regarding their church or their faith.
That is not to say that I dis-respect the efforts and good works towards others in their community that Men of Quality do every day... men like Seagoon are a precious commodity in these sad times.
Again.. thanks for the kind reply.. it is much appreciated.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Again.. thanks for the kind reply.. it is much appreciated.
Yeah, it was a good one.
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I know it's off-topic...
But I heard a song "Banjo Thing" from "Infernal".
It was almost as good as their song "Keen on disco".
Question is what is wrong in me? I like Lynyrd Skynyrd, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and frigging disco?
Should I contact some headshrinker or just face the fact that I've lost my taste of music?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
"Churchie". Priceless. ;) Nailed it..
Thanks for the kind reply.
The faith in which I was brought up assured me that I was better than other people; I was saved, they were damned ...Our hymns were loaded with arrogance -- self-congratulation on how cozy we were with the Almighty and what a high opinion he had of us, what hell everybody else would catch come Judgment Day.
Thanks to the experiences of my adolescence and youth, I've since carried a dim view of those that take a 'holier than thou' attitude regarding their church or their faith.
That is not to say that I dis-respect the efforts and good works towards others in their community that Men of Quality do every day... men like Seagoon are a precious commodity in these sad times.
Again.. thanks for the kind reply.. it is much appreciated.
Hangtime, I've been thinking about this for several days now. While I can respect -- and to some extent agree with -- your distaste for fakes and fakers, it seems to me that many times you generalize your distaste to include anyone with religious beliefs. Your reactions to people of faith seem visceral rather than thought out.
If your issue is really with the behavior and attitudes of the beleivers you've seen, would it make sense to consider that they amy not represent the true expression of faith?
In other words, does the fallibility of humans really invalidate the teachings of the Bible? It sounds from your description like the church you grew up in was trapped in the early 1930's (facetiously spoken). Human traditions have long been glopped over Jesus' teachings, and to some have become a new dogma -- but Jesus didnt teach the glop, and shouldnt be dissed because others have slathered it on.
Your anti-religious postings are so filled with, well, maybe ????bitterness??? that I have to wonder if there's more to the story than just distaste at hypocrisy.
And if hypocisy is what you truly hate, then please do people of faith this service ----- wait until we've been hypocritical before you slam us.
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Originally posted by Staga
I know it's off-topic...
But I heard a song "Banjo Thing" from "Infernal".
It was almost as good as their song "Keen on disco".
Question is what is wrong in me? I like Lynyrd Skynyrd, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin and frigging disco?
Should I contact some headshrinker or just face the fact that I've lost my taste of music?
Disco??
No. Nothing short of a lengthy exorcism can help you now.;)
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Originally posted by Delirium
I respect anyone's religion, provided they aren't strapping a bomb to their back. That said...
I consider all those 'Jesus Saves' and other novelty items people buy to be just like all those 'yellow ribbon' decals people are putting on their cars in alleged support of the troops.
Those 'yellow ribbon' decals are made in China and do nothing for our troops, they should instead donate the money to a charity to show thier support instead, like the USO for example.
Those religious items are exactly the same, useless for public display except for making the individual displaying them feel good themselves where they money would be best spent practicing their beliefs like feeding and caring for the poor.
I agree totally and I hate those stupid little yellow ribbons. If any bit of the money was actually going to the troops or to the families of those lost it would be a different story.
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And if hypocisy is what you truly hate, then please do people of faith this service ----- wait until we've been hypocritical before you slam us.
[/b]
'us'??
Is this 'high & mighty' BS again?
The 'slam' was a response to what I percieved to be a 'slam' against what was termed an 'abomination'.. a religious inference that's often used to isolate and single out for attack by religious activists any activity frowned upon by a 'churchie'.
And that, my religious friend is something that inspires my negative diatribes anytime I run across it. I don't care if the noise comes outta the head mulla's beard, the popes piehole or a baptist preachers sermon.. religious intolerance is one of societies greatest evils.
Now, with all due respect regarding the percieved 'hypocrisy'; either back the truck up; or drive it on thru. Don't leave that load of BS here.
Cheers!