Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StarOfAfrica2 on June 27, 2005, 02:03:32 AM
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Interested in thoughts on how well a revolver chambered for .45 LC would take to shooting .45 ACP rounds? Too much space between the bullet and barrel? Opinions?
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Originally posted by FaliFan
I'm not sure you can fire a .45 ACP round from a .45 Colt revolver. The .45 Colt cartridge is rimmed.
there are revolvers chambered for .45 ACP and 9mm you insert the cartridges into "half moon clips"
with regard to the first question, I'm fairly sure cartridge length is of no concern I routinely fire .38 through my .357 revolvers. what I'm not sure of is diameter there may be a small variance and this could be a problem.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Interested in thoughts on how well a revolver chambered for .45 LC would take to shooting .45 ACP rounds? Too much space between the bullet and barrel? Opinions?
As mentioned above, the 45 ACP is a rimless round, and headspaces on the edge of the case at the bullet. A standard 45 Colt chamber will not headspace the 45 ACP and as such will not fire it. Ruger makes a nice Blackhawk single action that has interchangeable cylinders to fire 45 Colt and 45 ACP. The Ruger does not require half moon or full moon clips, as there'd be no way to load it. since the cylinder is fixed. S&W makes a 45 ACP revolver, the model 25-5 I think, that uses the half moon and full moon clips. Those clips by the way make for the fastest reloads possible on a revolver. I saw a model 29 S&W converted to use .308 Winchester cases like a 44 Automag, with full moon clips. It was built for bowling pin matches.
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The short answer is no. In your .45 Colt revolver cylinder, the cartridge must headspace on the rim to prevent sliding down the chamber. Additionally, the .45 Colt case diameter at the base (not the rim) is .480" while the .45 ACP has a .470" case diameter.
The only commonly available cartridge/gun combo that safely allows interchangable rounds is a .357 Magnun revolver which can safely fire .38 Special ammo (but not the other way around).
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If you are talking about the various single actions that come with both a 45 acp and a 45 colt cylinder.... I have seen tests that show that there is not much difference in accuracy. 45 colt is sometimes a finicy round to get accuracy out of anyway tho.
I have seen a 45 single action that had three cylinders.. One for 454 casul, one for 45 colt and one for 45 acp. Strictly speaking the 454 casul cyl would workk for 45 colt.
VOR, There are others.. the 44mag/44special... 44 special, 44 russian 454 casul/45 colt
In 45 acp cylinders you don't need the half/full moon clips except to make the ejector work. In the case of the single action... it is not a factor since the ejector rod works like poking em out with a pencil.
For using full moon clips there are several companies that will mill the back of your cylinder on double action guns to get the right headspace when using full moon clips on rimmed revolver rounds.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
VOR, There are others.. the 44mag/44special... 44 special, 44 russian 454 casul/45 colt
Lazs, can you please tell me more about that? Or maybe a link? Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Russian/Soviet .44 ammo :(
The only thing that comes into my mind is Berdan rifle that had a caliber of four and a half lines, 0.45". Or maybe ancient Russian Smith-Wesson revolvers? In Soviet times the only alternative to Nagant 1895 revolver here was a "Czech rebolver" for 38 Special, availible for sport-shooting only.
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S&W fabricated their excellent #3 (schofield) model revolver for the .44 cal russian round used by the imperial cavalry the "cossacks" these were mfg. in the late 19the century circa1870. they were ordered by general alexander gorloff the imperial russian army military attache in washington D.C. and around 150,000 examples were produced.
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Originally posted by storch
S&W fabricated their excellent #3 (schofield) model revolver for the .44 cal russian round used by the imperial cavalry the "cossacks" these were mfg. in the late 19the century circa1870. they were ordered by general alexander gorloff the imperial russian army military attache in washington D.C. and around 150,000 examples were produced.
Thanks! That's what I thought it could be.
This revolvers were quite popular until the end of Civil war (early-20s). IIRC they were considered more powerfull then 1895 Nagant.
Russian sources say it was 0.42", not 44, 10.67mm, 4.2 lines. OTOH Russian "model #1" is a copy of SW model #3.
Hmm. And this article (http://ww1.iatp.org.ua/smith-vesson1869.htm) says it used black powder...
SW made 250,000 revolvers for Russian army, some more by German "Ludwig Lewe and Co", and since 1886 they were manufactured at Tula state arms factory.
Hmmm.... A rim-fire cartrige with black powder. Mysterious stuff, indeed. :confused:
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Boroda,
The cartriges Laz mentioned all have the same nominal diameter for the cartrige and projectile. The difference is in the length of the shell casing. The 44 Russian is shorter than the special or magnum. The larger the casing the more powder capactiy and power of the cartrige.
If you have a revolver that is chambered for multiple cartriges like the 44 mag / special / russian you are sacrificing velocity and some accuracy with the shorter shells. The bullet has farther to go to get to the rifling in the barrel and can be slightly off center when it gets to the barrel. This may cause a bit of deformation of the shell and cause it to spin just off center of it's weight. Generally the closer to the rifling the projectile is at firing, the more accurate it should be.
As to the .45 long colt vs the 45 acp. I have seen some pistols set up to use both cartriges. The best accuracy should be with the long colt. I imagine the question is econimically driven as ACP rounds are usually cheaper than the long colts. This is a good time to get into reloading them and save more all the way around.
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Hmmm.... A rim-fire cartrige with black powder. Mysterious stuff, indeed.
This is not uncommon. Esp in the old days.
Some RF cartridges are loaded with black powder even today. 22 blanks for instance.
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Originally posted by lazs2
VOR, There are others.. the 44mag/44special... 44 special, 44 russian 454 casul/45 colt
lazs
Oops, absolutely right.
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I might have gotten some bad info along the way, but I believe that .38 Special and .357 are practically the same round. I think you can fire the .38 special through .357's, but not the other way around.
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Actually these are all going to be loaded with black powder. I know of one company that makes a conversion cylinder that specifically fires .45 ACP rounds but I wasnt sure what the difference is. They dont list any specs.
The reasons I am interested in using the .45 ACPs are the smaller casing and ease of availability of reloading supplies (and price). Everything here is at a premium, and the more common it is the lower the price is. Lots more guys shooting and reloading .45 ACP than .45 LC. But mostly because I have a gun that requires lower pressures than the one I'm shooting .45 LC out of now and I want to use the smaller .45 ACP cartridges to keep pressure down. If I use the LC brass, and want to use less powder, I have to use a filler to keep it full. The ACP is literally half the length of the LC. I could fill the ACP to the top and not have to use filler. I was also curious if I could get by with the standard LC cylinder I'm using now instead of the ACP cylinder.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I might have gotten some bad info along the way, but I believe that .38 Special and .357 are practically the same round. I think you can fire the .38 special through .357's, but not the other way around.
You are correct. .357 revolvers fire .38 cartridges, but a .38 revolver will not fire .357s. A .357 is a Magnum round and has more pressure than a .38. The frame and parts are usually heavier on the .357 gun and designed to handle a Magnum round. They also make a .357 round for semi-autos, but its not a magnum round and doesnt have the same ballistics as the revolver version.
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Originally posted by Maverick
The cartriges Laz mentioned all have the same nominal diameter for the cartrige and projectile. The difference is in the length of the shell casing. The 44 Russian is shorter than the special or magnum. The larger the casing the more powder capactiy and power of the cartrige.
I understand about the powder capacity ;)
Originally posted by Maverick
If you have a revolver that is chambered for multiple cartriges like the 44 mag / special / russian you are sacrificing velocity and some accuracy with the shorter shells. The bullet has farther to go to get to the rifling in the barrel and can be slightly off center when it gets to the barrel. This may cause a bit of deformation of the shell and cause it to spin just off center of it's weight. Generally the closer to the rifling the projectile is at firing, the more accurate it should be.
In 1895 Nagant this problem is solved by the cylider (drum? "baraban" in Russian)) moving over the rear end of barrel. There were special "sport" Nagant cartriges, about 2 times shorter and with less powder to make it more accurate, also they had lead bullet without jacket. I don't know if it was possible to fire them from ordinary Nagants, there was a special version of a "sports" revolver with short cylinder.
Frankly speaking - I don't understand how decreasing the powder charge made accuracy better. Recoil maybe? From what I learned at "inner ballistics" lectures the main recoil impulse is when a bullet leaves the barrel, and Nagants were not used for fast-shooting for obvious reasons. But standard "sports" cartridge had a lead bullet deep in the case. I saw all this stuff that Mother took from Fathers's uniform pockets when he still practiced sprot-shooting. I wonder if I have a cartrige or two somewhere in my flat now, here for owning illegal ammunition (like one old Nagant cartrige) you may go to jail.
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Those Nagant revolvers are surgin the surplus market at the moment. They can be had in "like new" condition for about $120 or so depending on where you look. The ammunition is pretty expensive, though. I might invest in one just for the sake of having it in the collection.
The sport revolvers you mentioned are also appearing on the market. Talk about ugly!
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Originally posted by VOR
Those Nagant revolvers are surgin the surplus market at the moment. They can be had in "like new" condition for about $120 or so depending on where you look. The ammunition is pretty expensive, though. I might invest in one just for the sake of having it in the collection.
The sport revolvers you mentioned are also appearing on the market. Talk about ugly!
Nagants were manufactured here at least until 1945. There are millions of them, and they are still used by different non-military state guard units and something like arming bank employees. I had a girl-friend who worked in Savings Bank, they took her to the shooting range to shoot 7 bullets or so every six months. That girl could hardly lift the damn thing :D
An interesting thing is that there were originaly two versons of Nagant: officer's double-action and soldier's single action. Soldier's version was more expensive, but it was "inconvenient" to arm soldiers with the same quality weapon as officers...
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Yes, the single-action ones fetch a much higher price. It must be "inconvenient" to sell them for less.
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Originally posted by VOR
Yes, the single-action ones fetch a much higher price. It must be "inconvenient" to sell them for less.
And they are usually older then others by default. When I said about "inconvenience" I meant Russian Empire, in Soviet time they manufactured only double-action version.
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I knew what you meant ;)
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I don't think you were explaining it well enough. On the Nagant Pistol, when you kick in the single action (I.E. Pull back the hammer) it pushed forward the cylinder closing the seal between the cylinder and the barrel.
Take any standard revolver to the range. Hold your hand next to the cylinder and fire the gun. You'd be able to feel the gases from there not being a seal.
So this improves the range, and accuraccy of the pistol. Actually a very genious addition.
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Laisor, you might want to note that those gasses you feel when pulling that stunt will also be searing hot.
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ok... the 44 russian was a centerfire blackpowder round not a rimfire. Most early blackpowder cartidges were rimfire tho... like the 44 henry.
the nagant used a necked down brass and the cylinder traveled forward when cocked and the neck of the brass would seal into the special throat of the barrel... theory being that it would stop the loss of gas (and decrease in velocity) c aused by the cyl/barrel gap.... a complex solution to an allmost nonexistent problem... especially considering the poor performance of the nagant round in any case.
As for the 45 colt 45 acp accuracy question.... the theory is that the acp round is inherently more accurate because the large 45 colt (originaly blackpowder) case allows the powder charge to be oriented willy nilly in the case...... the theory then goes on to say that the long jump from cyl to barrel throat in a 45 acp fired from a long 45 colt cyl will degrade accuracy..
Whatever the reasons... most agree that both the 45acp and 45 colt can be made to perform about the same from the same gun.
lazs
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Hmmm.......
Thought the 45 acp was .451 and the 45 LC was larger? Like .453 or .454?
Accuracy should suffer some with the smaller diameter bullet passing through the large diameter barrel?
Isn't the .45 LC a longer heavier bullet then the .45 ACP as well?
Just wondering.
I've heard of some very accurate .45 LC's but the sites on the replicas are as bad as the originals LOL
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I think the accuracy of the .45 LC revolvers I have shot comes from it's natural pointability. at 25 yards it is just almost impossible to miss a human center of mass type target right about where you should be hitting as long as you take the due time to aim. those weapons just "feel right". it's my sidearm of choice in any hunt.
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Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm.......
Thought the 45 acp was .451 and the 45 LC was larger? Like .453 or .454?
Accuracy should suffer some with the smaller diameter bullet passing through the large diameter barrel?
Isn't the .45 LC a longer heavier bullet then the .45 ACP as well?
Just wondering.
I've heard of some very accurate .45 LC's but the sites on the replicas are as bad as the originals LOL
Actual barrel diameter of a .45 revolver is .451 Its the same whether you are shooting .45 LC, .45 Schofileds or .45 ACP. The size of the bullet itself is irrellevant, you can buy both ACP and LC in several bullet sizes (weights). The most common in both is a 200 grain bullet I believe (that could have changed).
The main reason I asked about this in the first place, I know the original S&W Schofields have a shorter cylinder than the LC revolvers. Revolvers in both flavors were bought by the US Army and issued to troops. If you have the LC you can shoot the Schofields, they are shorter. If you have the Schofield gun though, you cant shoot LC because the brass is longer than the cylinder. The bullet on the end sticks out of the cylinder so it wont rotate in the gun. If I was planning to load Schofield brass I wouldnt even think twice. However, the ACP is considerably shorter than either, and I was worried about all that space between the end of the bullet and the barrel opening inside the frame.
Alot of "innacuracies" with the .45 LC rounds in modern guns comes from the fact that its such a long cartridge. It was originally designed to be filled with black powder (as was the Schofield round). Modern LC rounds just dont fill the casing with powder. With black powder, you HAVE to fill the casing. You cant have any airspace inside the cartridge casing on a black powder load, or it becomes a bomb instead of a bullet. So if I want to keep the pressures low, I either have to use the long as heck LC cartridge and fill half of it with some kind of filler like cornmeal, or use a shorter cartridge to start with like the ACP. The extra cylinder distance is what is worrying me.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Actual barrel diameter of a .45 revolver is .451 Its the same whether you are shooting .45 LC, .45 Schofileds or .45 ACP. The size of the bullet itself is irrellevant, you can buy both ACP and LC in several bullet sizes (weights). The most common in both is a 200 grain bullet I believe (that could have changed).
The main reason I asked about this in the first place, I know the original S&W Schofields have a shorter cylinder than the LC revolvers. Revolvers in both flavors were bought by the US Army and issued to troops. If you have the LC you can shoot the Schofields, they are shorter. If you have the Schofield gun though, you cant shoot LC because the brass is longer than the cylinder. The bullet on the end sticks out of the cylinder so it wont rotate in the gun. If I was planning to load Schofield brass I wouldnt even think twice. However, the ACP is considerably shorter than either, and I was worried about all that space between the end of the bullet and the barrel opening inside the frame.
Alot of "innacuracies" with the .45 LC rounds in modern guns comes from the fact that its such a long cartridge. It was originally designed to be filled with black powder (as was the Schofield round). Modern LC rounds just dont fill the casing with powder. With black powder, you HAVE to fill the casing. You cant have any airspace inside the cartridge casing on a black powder load, or it becomes a bomb instead of a bullet. So if I want to keep the pressures low, I either have to use the long as heck LC cartridge and fill half of it with some kind of filler like cornmeal, or use a shorter cartridge to start with like the ACP. The extra cylinder distance is what is worrying me.
Really?
I seem to recall in my reloading manuals that the original .45 long colt was a larger diameter then the .45 ACP????
Hmmmmmmmm..... That you could fire the .45 acp from the .45 long colt but NOT vice versa????
Guess my memory of my reloading manual needs a refresher. Haven't looked at em for awhile. They are pretty old. But so am I.
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If that confuses you, consider that so far I have fired both .45 LC and .45 Schofield rounds through my gun. It's a .44 Black Powder copy of a 1858 Remington, using a .45 LC conversion cylinder modelled after the original that came out at the end of the civil war. The .44 BP guns have the same barrel diameter as a modern .45 LC cartridge firearm (.451). The .45 ACP revolvers I have seen are commonly called 455's, and it could be that they are larger, but I have always been given to understand that .45's are all the same diameter. I've never reloaded them yet though, so you could be right. I DO know that there is a company making conversion cylinders that specifically allow my guns to shoot .45 ACP cartridges so the barrel must be able to accomodate them. But then .004 is a pretty small difference when you are talking about a lead bullet that is hot as blazes anyway, and will likely force itself through the barrel regardless.
The gun I want to use the ACP cartridges in is a brass frame, thats why I need to keep the pressures low. The LC/Schofield conversion cylinders are not useable with a brass frame revolver because it expands too much with the increased pressure from shooting cartridge loads. This is my "project" gun. The ACP conversion is just one of several alterations I intend for this gun.
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Every reloading manual I have IIRC list the correct bullet diameter for the .45 acp as .451*
For some reason I keep remembering the .45LC as being .454?????
Why someone is calling the ACP a 455 beats me.
The Colt and the Schofield are the same diameter IIRC that should be .454.
* IIRC I think I read it is possible to use 452 (lead) and 450 (jacketed/lead) for this cartridge (.45 ACP) with very little to no accuracy loss. BUT with the 452 diameter bullet watch the brass for pressure related problems!!!!!!!!!!
Such as flattened primer cups, or splitting, or bulging, or seperation bands, or actual seperation of the brass, and excessive leading of the bore.
Have you access to any of the cowboy action ammunition? IIRC It's purposely loaded to very low pressures and velocities. They get pretty close to the targets and don't want any ricochets.
Might wanna do a net lookup of cowboy action shooting. They have allot of info regarding this cartridge, and it's loading.
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well... it does get confusing when you are talking old black powder rounds... The 45 colt in it's earlier versions would often be .454 and have cyl throats to match... by the time it went smokeless, allmost every one was .451 you can tell what you have by "slugging" the barrel and cyl throat using a special kit or just a soft lead slug pounded down the barrel and measured.
The 45acp was never blackpowder and allways was .451... To add to the confusion... the 455 eley and webly rounds were.... .455 and, in the colt and smith revolvers that were made for them (for the brits who were frightened of guns till hitler made em overcome their fear for a few years).
The brits sent the guns back so that their citizens wouldn't all shoot each other over traffic jams or kill royals for fun and.... thousands of these guns (along with webleys) had their cyl cut and converted to 45 acp.... a 451 bullet rattling down a 454/455 barrel... I had one and cast .454 slugs for the acp and it improved accuracy by cutting groups in half.
As for "fillers" in 45 colt cases... not sure that is a good idea. There are several new powders out there that will ignite no consistently not matter what the orientation of the powder charge but...
I think you are talking about the toy gun loads that come out at daisy BB gun speeds from the "guns" used by the cowboy action set.
I would just use reasonable loads and not care about being competitive... that is the reason the sport started in the first place... fun... You could also work up a load using 45 colt brass trimmed down to 45 auto rim (a thick rimmed 45 case that would work without moon clips in 45acp cyl) and call it a shoffeild round.
lazs
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I've always been a fan of Smith and Wesson. The first firearm I purchased was a Model 19. I sacked groceries all summer to save the $ and finally "bought" it with Dad's help since I was 17 years old.
Lately, S&W has been modernizing their revolvers in a way that detracts from their classic lines and appearance. I prefer the styles of the 60s - 80s, even though they may be less tactically Ramboesque in application.
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You'll find the the actual rifling, the forcing cone, and the end of the chamber, varies greatly in the 45 Colt chamberings, from gun to gun and brand to brand.
The chamber mouth on most all of the cylinders is too big, leading to shaving of bullets and leading at the entrance of the barrel, in the gap between the cylinder and the barrel.
The Freedom Arms (454 Casull) revolvers are the only ones done "properly". Those have the tight .451-.452 chamber mouths instead of the more common Ruger .454-.455, also found on the various generations of Colt SAA revolvers and the mulitude of replicas thereof. Also the Freedom Arms revolvers are align bored with the cylinder placed in the frame, so that cylinder to barrel alignment is perfect, or at least as perfect as humans and CNC equipment can make them. That's why the Freedom Arms revolvers cost near $2K.
SOME of the problem can be cured, by getting a tool from Brownell's to put an 11 degree chamfer on the back of the barrel. A REALLY good gunsmith can also take a longer barrel, cut it, rethread it, and cut a new forcing cone, preferrable a Taylor forcing cone, like Freedom Arms uses, and increase both accuracy AND velocity, along with virtually eliminating leading and bullet shaving. The longer but smoother transition to the rifling is the key.
You can have a Ruger single action done like the Freedom Arms revolvers are, Hamilton Bowen in LouisvilleTN and John Linebaugh in Cody Wyoming make some real beauties. More known for the .475 and .500 Magnum conversions, both do incredible work on Rugers, and on some Colt SAA's. But you end up with as much invested as a Freedom Arms would cost.
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Cool. Thanks for the help and info. I posted a similar question on 3 different BBS and didnt get half this much useful stuff.
After deliberation, I am going to leave the brass gun in cap and ball form. I'll invest in stainless steel (and correctly sized) nipples for the cylinders, and get an extra cylinder to give me 3. I'll have the extras loaded and ready, and carry in a double speed-loader case I'm getting from H&K. I'm still going to cut the barrel down to 5 1/2" to make it easier to use as a cross-draw rig, but other than that it will stay the same.
Thanks again.
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truth is... most revolvers have cyl chamber and barrel throad issues. I have seen 45 colt rugers with .452 rifling and 451 cyl throat.. as virgil says.. for large cyl problem can be eased by throating the barrel a little... tight chambers can be reamed.
I would rather have all the chambers reamed and be a tad on the large side than vary.. Freedom arms and Dan Wesson do a fabulous job on line boring and chamber tolerance and it shows at the range.
In practical matters tho... Ruger has the right idea... let the chambers run big.. the chance of the slug expanding and then being forced back down in the rifling are minor compared to having to tight a chamber that swages down the bullet before it hits the rifling
We are probly talking about the difference between a 1" 5 shot group at 25 yards and a 1 1/4" group at 25 yards from a bolted downm ransom rest tho... Standing up and just blasting away... we are not really able to see any difference in the fist sized groups most of us consider damn good at 25 yards.
lazs