Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: texace on June 27, 2005, 11:22:30 AM
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I'm directing this question at Lazs, but anyone is welcome to chime in if they want to.
My brother is considering purchasing a handgun. At current, he's got several ideas in mind but he's dead set on buying a revolver, more specifically a .357.
At my workplace, we've got numerous .357s for sale from many different manufacturers. He wants the weapon for self-defense, and will be getting a CCP with it. Though I do have a vast knowledge of weapons, I don't know a lot. I can only help him so much.
He's looking for a S&W .357 with a four inch barrel, as it's easier to handle and conceal. He's fired a weapon before, but never owned one. I will also be shooting with him once he gets it.
I'm basically asking for the advice of what would be best for him. Price isn't a huge deal, as my workplace has a pretty extensive layaway plan for firearms.
He's 5' 11" and well built, if it helps any.
I appreciate the assistance!
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I recommend a model 66 in 2 and 3/4" barrel. It is far more concealable than thne 4" version and witrh Pachmeyer grips very comfortable to shoot. Once you practice with it the accuracy is just about up there with the 4" as well. You can use 38's in it for cheaper practice than .357's. If you start handloading it will get even cheaper and you can duplicate the factory load to practice with then put in the store bought rounds to carry. FWIW I have the 4" version as well but enjoy shooting the smaller one more. I used the 4" in combat competition and both actions slicked from dry firing so they are very smooth.
I've had this particular model for about 20 years plus and it's a great gun. There are smaller and lighter magnums out there but they bite pretty harshly when fired. This will encourage a lack of practice and a loss of accuracy for a weapon to be used in extremis when you want ALL the chips on your side.
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you're in Texas, where it is frequently HOT. That means light clothing, which is not good for concealed carry.
The 4" is just as easy to conceal as the 2", really, and is a little easier to shoot well. The hogue or Pachmayer grips on a wheelgun don't help in concealment. That being said, I think your brother needs something he can hide better.
If he insists on a full power gun, he shold look into one of the Glock autos. They make a good concealed carry piece. Also look at the DAO (double action only) autos from smith and wesson, taurus, Kahr, or one of the other reputable makers.
Personally, I carry a beretta .32 auto, for one reason only--it is easy to hide, and I can take it anywhere I can wear clothes. The first rule of a gunfight is:
Have a gun.
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Us telling you a specific gun he would like is like us telling you that he would like Heineken Beer because he's 5'11.
There is no way to tell other then getting out and testing these fire arms out. Because when the **** really hits the fan, he wants the gun that was most comfortable for him, not one someone on an internet forum recomended.
I won't recomend anything past that EXCEPT to stay away from Glocks. Or any gun where you can't see the hammer. There are safeties on the gun, but the biggest one is the hammer not being drawn. If it's not drawn, it's not going to drop.
Also, for utmost reliability, stick with revolvers. The revolver has very few moving parts that can break. A single jam won't gum up the whole works either.
Oh, and the first rule of a gunfight is to have the biggest gun.
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Laser,
I disagree with you about the single failure part. Ever had a primer back out in a revolver? It locks the cylinder and you can't even open the cylinder to dump the ammo! :eek:
The original post asked for specific infor regarding .357's so I posted what I did. I also have and carry a Glock. I can clear a jam in it faster than any revolver. :)
Get a quality weapon. Practice with it, maintain it and feed it quality ammo and it will be there when you need it.
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No, with the 4 revolvers I own and the thousands of rounds I put through them, I've never had a primer back out.
But like you said, I never even consider ****ty ammo when the shots count.
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Originally posted by texace
My brother is considering purchasing a handgun. At current, he's got several ideas in mind but he's dead set on buying a revolver, more specifically a .357.
At my workplace, we've got numerous .357s for sale from many different manufacturers. He wants the weapon for self-defense, and will be getting a CCP with it. Though I do have a vast knowledge of weapons, I don't know a lot. I can only help him so much.
He's looking for a S&W .357 with a four inch barrel, as it's easier to handle and conceal. He's fired a weapon before, but never owned one. I will also be shooting with him once he gets it.
I'm basically asking for the advice of what would be best for him. Price isn't a huge deal, as my workplace has a pretty extensive layaway plan for firearms.
I appreciate the assistance!
The S&W gun is a proven and dependable design, fits nicely in the hand. I would recommend he gets the Hogue grips for it, makes it much easier shooting. I would also recommend he check out the Rossi/Taurus .357. They come factory with their own rubber grips, which are very comfortable and well designed (I speak from experience, I own one). I like the safety system on them, and the gun is very well balanced in the hand. Either way he'll be a happy man.
The beautiful thing about these guns is the cheap price and availability of .38 special ammo for target practice. The .357s are not only a pain to shoot all the time, they can be expensive too.
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If he is convinced that he wants to use an outdated handgun with limited capacity, he might as well just get a 22.
Todays autos are so superior to revolvers it isnt funny. The 357 isnt the greatest round either.
I personally would recommend something along the lines of a Sig P226 in .40 SW.
dago
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Revolvers are nice because they dont jam and they dont leave behind shell casings with your fingerprints all over them :D
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Originally posted by Maverick
Laser,
I disagree with you about the single failure part. Ever had a primer back out in a revolver? It locks the cylinder and you can't even open the cylinder to dump the ammo! :eek:
The original post asked for specific infor regarding .357's so I posted what I did. I also have and carry a Glock. I can clear a jam in it faster than any revolver. :)
Get a quality weapon. Practice with it, maintain it and feed it quality ammo and it will be there when you need it.
The only time I've ever seen primers back out of a cartridge was on handloaded stuff. And the guy was admittedly drunk when he loaded them. I've never had a primer back out of a factory load.
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Originally posted by Dago
If he is convinced that he wants to use an outdated handgun with limited capacity, he might as well just get a 22.
Todays autos are so superior to revolvers it isnt funny. The 357 isnt the greatest round either.
I personally would recommend something along the lines of a Sig P226 in .40 SW.
dago
All it takes is one. lol
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Go to a gun range that rents guns and try out a few. Many ranges will have a wide variety to choose from. $100 on a day renting everything they have is well spent if it keeps him from dropping $500 or more on something he'll hate later on. Maybe make a deal with the range for a discount if you want to compare many different guns.
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Todays autos are so superior to revolvers it isnt funny. The 357 isnt the greatest round either.
No. Autos will never be superior to revolvers. There's just a reliability factor you can't beat.
Even the greatest Semi Auto Rifle the M14 doesn't hold a match to a 1903 or K98 in terms of reliability.
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good advise from everyone here. Nothing wrong with any of it.
My only addition would be.... what is he gonna do with the gun besides carry it around? does he plan on using it to plink or target shoot too?
The L frame smith in 2.5" barrel is an VERY accurate gun. probly a little easier to carry than the 4" but not much... rounded finger grove WOOD grips are more important in my opinion for how it carries..
If he only wants to carry.... get a 340 PD like mav says... the recoil is like... from hell.. I can barely get 5 rounds out of my wood gripped one without injury but... it weighs 12 oz and you can carry it in the front pocket as easily as a cell phone.
My advise.... get both... get the 66 L frame in stainless with a 2.5 or 4 inch barrel and also buy the 340 PD.
shoot 125 grain hollowpoints out of both of em.
lazs
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If he is convinced that he wants to use an outdated handgun with limited capacity, he might as well just get a 22.
Todays autos are so superior to revolvers it isnt funny. The 357 isnt the greatest round either.
I personally would recommend something along the lines of a Sig P226 in .40 SW.
dago
I was just issued the P226 .40 with 12 shot mags and qualified with it today. Thank God they didn't give us those tupperware guns. I must say, I'm very impressed. A smooth, accurate shooter and well made. I carry it in the Safariland high security paddle holster. Forget about concealing it though.
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For SOA and Laser, Yep I have had a primer back out on factory ammo, either that or it was just a high primer that I didn't catch when I loaded my speed loaders. My department had a bad batch of rounds come in for practice. Either the casings had slightly enlarged primer pockets or the primers were undersized. We had to send the lot back. Nasty to have the darn thing lock up on you.
I happen to like both style of handguns. I carried both for serious work and copmpeted with my duty rig. Why practice with one gun and shoot another to save your life as far as I'm concerned. I am definately in favor of a self shucker (auto) for serious use due to ammo capacity and ease of concealment. I am in favor of an amature using a revolver as there is less to remember on how to use it properly. With training and practice it's a moot point between the tupes of weapon.
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I've been carrying S&W revolvers for 20 years now, I opted for 6" barrel and use shoulder holsters. I carry either my model 48 (.22Mag) Model 19 (.357Mag) or Model 29 (Heavy barrel mod 3)(.44Mag). I have been happy with the S&W quality... Not a bad choice particularly for a novice. A word to the wise of course.... BEFORE BUYING ANYTHING - find a weapon that you feel comfortable carrying and firing.... Practice a lot before carrying or buying a weapon, in the hands of a completely inexperienced user a firearm could be more dangerous to the user than the intended target.
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get a Walter PPK.
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I used to own a S&W 686 L frame .357 mag, with a 4" barrel. Sweet gun...handled well and was a pleasure to shoot.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/255_1119918650_sw686.jpg)
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Mav, I'm not against auto loaders at all. I happen to have a .40 Para-Ordnance I left with my brother when I moved. Besides needing a little smooting to the feed ramp, its been a great gun. I've also had a couple of .380s and 9mms. I just prefer revolvers in all my shooting. For home defense? I know even if it's pitch black in the room I can pick up my .357 Rossi and count on firing it without any hesitation except acquiring a target.
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If he is willing to go to .38 instead of .357 I would recommend the Smith & Wesson Model 10.
The gun is unbelievably reliable. At one time over 80 percent of the law enforcement agencies in the U.S. used the Model 10. It is still in production with over 6 million delivered.
There are many different grips available, so the gun will fit just about anyone’s hand.
The sights are fixed and easy to use. I have shot some of the most horrible (work provided) reloads in it without problems.
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Not to dismiss S&W,
But Taurus and Ruger revolvers are very good and a bit less expensive. Of course, if there is ever a 'trade in' notion the S&W would fair much better. However, in actual firearm quality, from what I have seen the Taurus and Ruger revolvers are on par with the S&W.
Regards,
Malta
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I own an S&W 66 in blue finish with the 4" barrel, a nice gun but definitely not a good CC option to my mind.
While I love wheel guns, I think pistols are just a better option for a concealed carry, more ammo, fewer protruding parts, more accuracy, and a lot less recoil.
Is there any reason it has to be a .357 as opposed to say a .40 or a 10mm? While most .357 loads will have a higher muzzle velocity, in longer barrels, that is cut down significantly once you are using the typical 2" barrel on a .357 designed for CC. In fact, with some loads, a .40 coming out of a "4 will have greater MV than a .357 out of "2 barrel. The .40 and the 10mm are also both bigger bullets which equals more stopping power.
- SEAGOON
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My personal preference is the Colt .45 Combat Commander.
Very very reliable....good close range, powerful knockdown capability. Just bought one for those reasons.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Us telling you a specific gun he would like is like us telling you that he would like Heineken Beer because he's 5'11.
There is no way to tell other then getting out and testing these fire arms out. Because when the **** really hits the fan, he wants the gun that was most comfortable for him, not one someone on an internet forum recomended.
I won't recomend anything past that EXCEPT to stay away from Glocks. Or any gun where you can't see the hammer. There are safeties on the gun, but the biggest one is the hammer not being drawn. If it's not drawn, it's not going to drop.
Also, for utmost reliability, stick with revolvers. The revolver has very few moving parts that can break. A single jam won't gum up the whole works either.
Oh, and the first rule of a gunfight is to have the biggest gun.
Glocks aren't the problem, the owner's are. I own a USP .45 and shoot my buddies Glock 23 all of the time. Whilst, I prefer my own weapon, the Glock 23 is a thing of beauty to shoot.
I'm confused at your "There are safeties on the gun, but the biggest one is the hammer not being drawn. If it's not drawn, it's not going to drop." statement. There is no point to this at all. Who gives a s**t about "seeing the hammer", Glocks are proven in the hands of safe and capable owners, bottom line.
On the "failure to fire" subject you bring up, only one brand has EVER given me fits. Beretta, I'll never own a POS like these. They are garbage, by design.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Dago
If he is convinced that he wants to use an outdated handgun with limited capacity, he might as well just get a 22.
Todays autos are so superior to revolvers it isnt funny. The 357 isnt the greatest round either.
I personally would recommend something along the lines of a Sig P226 in .40 SW.
dago
They are nowhere near "superior". This is so false it isn't funny. You are comparing "Apples to Oranges". It comes down to preference.
Yer right. The .38+P round is better than the .357 round. From all of the "gelatin shot" forensic videos my eyes have seen, the .38+P is. But, we could go around all day on that subject, there is no need too, either one in the "kill zone" is dropping a perpatrator.
My shooting buddy had put around 12,000 rounds through his Pre-Ban P226, when the frame cracked. He bought another and uses the old one for parts. S**t happens regardless, of make, brand, model, etc.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Dago
I personally would recommend something along the lines of a Sig P226 in .40 SW.
dago
This is a full size duty weapon sir, this is NOT a concealed carry style weapon. Sure you can wear a jacket in the summer, you'll stick out like a sore thumb. I enjoy picking people like this out whilst shopping with the wife, they cower when I ask them "Whatcha carrying?". 3/4 of the time they are too embarassed to answer.
Karaya
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Originally posted by stantond
Not to dismiss S&W,
But Taurus and Ruger revolvers are very good and a bit less expensive. Of course, if there is ever a 'trade in' notion the S&W would fair much better. However, in actual firearm quality, from what I have seen the Taurus and Ruger revolvers are on par with the S&W.
Regards,
Malta
Sorry, but when the s**t hits the fan, S&W's reputation is miles above Taurus or Ruger's. IMO, you get what you for. Guns are the one thing a do not "Want bang for the buck" (no pun intended).
Karaya
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Originally posted by texace
I'm directing this question at Lazs, but anyone is welcome to chime in if they want to.
My brother is considering purchasing a handgun. At current, he's got several ideas in mind but he's dead set on buying a revolver, more specifically a .357.
At my workplace, we've got numerous .357s for sale from many different manufacturers. He wants the weapon for self-defense, and will be getting a CCP with it. Though I do have a vast knowledge of weapons, I don't know a lot. I can only help him so much.
He's looking for a S&W .357 with a four inch barrel, as it's easier to handle and conceal. He's fired a weapon before, but never owned one. I will also be shooting with him once he gets it.
I'm basically asking for the advice of what would be best for him. Price isn't a huge deal, as my workplace has a pretty extensive layaway plan for firearms.
He's 5' 11" and well built, if it helps any.
I appreciate the assistance!
Keep in mind, a 4 inch barrel is practically impossible to conceal without sticking out in public.
Personally for CCW style guns: (in no particular order)
340D
Kimber Ultra Carry
Glock 23 (.40 S&W)
Glock 36 (6+1 .45acp) thinnest of the Glocks, and very accurate
Sig P229
USP Compact (.40 or .45)
My opinion: I do not like Kahr Arms, Walther's or 9mm.
Karaya
PS - He should shoot a few guns even if not those already in previous posts or this one. If he is GOING TO BUY a firearms, most ranges will waive "rental fee's". However, if this is a "let me ask the wife about this" type situation, they'll charge him.
Tex, I hope any of this helps in the most minute way. <>
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I use a S&W .38 model 60 stainless 5 shot Chief's Special for CCW. Very reliable, very concealable. Not only is it a good belly gun, it is pretty accurate downrange for a short barrel gun with the trigger indexing. Nice little gun.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Sorry, but when the s**t hits the fan, S&W's reputation is miles above Taurus or Ruger's. IMO, you get what you for. Guns are the one thing a do not "Want bang for the buck" (no pun intended).
Karaya
I have a taurus model 85 2" that is always left in my truck's tool box (and it looks like it) the revolver was a trade for something or other I can't recall now years ago and was well worn when I got it. every now and again as I'm out in the rural areas I'll set up some boxes about 25yds away and fire 5 then reload fresh factory +P .38. it has never failed to perform flawlessly. just so you know taurus was S&W, they purchased the tooling and plant from S&W in porto alegre, rio grande do sul brasil. while ruger and S&W are fine weapons manufacturers the taurus wheel gun is every bit as good in quality and much better as far as price and programs go. I could take that well worn subject .38 and trade it in for a new taurus .357 and taurus would give current new value for it no questions asked. try that with a smith or ruger. I also own a ruger security six in .357 6" and an S&W model 642 in .357 3" the security six has sentimental value as it was a friend's who has passed on. I rarely shoot it. when his boy is old enough I will give it to him to keep. the 642 rides in the cab with the A/C and XM radio, it is after all, a smith and wesson :D
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now some of you are getting into the king arthur myth area... All autos jam... the best you can do is practice clearing the jam or simply hope that the 1 in 100's of rounds that jam is not the one you needed... that is most likely what will happen... autos jam when they are "held wrong" ever notice that auto that you have that has never ever never jamed on you flips the bird and strovepipes when you let a friend shoot it? either he holds it too tight or not tight enough.
revolvers will jam... It happens mostly on single actions or moon clip guns... when something drags on the recoil shield it could jam... mostly you can force one more shot or so by pulling bak the hammer while pulling the trigger... also...old smiths used to have the ejector rod "unscrew" from recoil and make it impossible to open the gun... all of these "jams" are even less likely than an auto jaming.
There is no auto that is as powerful and concealable as a smith 340 pd. The 357 in 125 hp is more powerful than any +++++P 38 round in any length barrel
The 357 is still king for one shot stops... the 44 mag in certain loads and conditions is much better but... .40's and .45's and others using the right ammo are all very close (whithin a few percent)
I have a PPK... heavy and bulky for the power and complex and outdated.
I have a Kimber in 45 that I would trust but... if I had to carry every day.... the 340pd would be the 90% of the time gun... with winter clothes and expecting touble.... My cut down despured 44 mag or kimber... nightstand.. Kimber because of the 44 penetration and.. the kimber has tritium sights.
lazs
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Just curious....have any of you guys ever shot at a person? No hidden anti-gun agenda, just an honest question.
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that is a rather personal question curval. Do you ask soldiers for instance if they every killed civilians or cops if they shoot people...
I think it is kinda rude.
I think a more relevant question and less rude would be... "Have you ever stopped a crime or prevented someone from getting hurt using a firearm?"
It doesn't matter if you shoot or not or if anyone is shot. The gun did it's job if it stopped the problem... sometimes it means shooting or.... shooting back but... that is irrelevant unless you are just morbidly curious in a walter mitty kinda way (or worse).
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
that is a rather personal question curval. Do you ask soldiers for instance if they every killed civilians or cops if they shoot people...
I think it is kinda rude.
I think a more relevant question and less rude would be... "Have you ever stopped a crime or prevented someone from getting hurt using a firearm?"
It doesn't matter if you shoot or not or if anyone is shot. The gun did it's job if it stopped the problem... sometimes it means shooting or.... shooting back but... that is irrelevant unless you are just morbidly curious in a walter mitty kinda way (or worse).
lazs
spot on Lazs
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Well, I've read a few posts here about some people using their weapons.
Fine...apologies for "being rude" on this BBS. Forget I asked.
Lazs...it is only "more relevant" if that was the question I asked and you were trying to argue your gun logic with me. It wasn't the question I asked and I don't want to argue with you.
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Curv,
Rather poor taste there. I think Laz covered it pretty well.
FYI I have been in more weapons drawn situations than I care to recall. Two of them stand out.
One was a guy starting to use a small 3lb hand sledge hammer to kill my buddy while we responded to a disturbance call at a popular college bar. Kids all around and we were very reluctant to shoot even though we had more than sufficeint justification. Problem was that we likely would have had other casualties as the ammo tended to over penetrate. I was in process of pulling the trigger when my buddy jumped on the guy in my line of fire. We ended up going hand to hand with a hammer wielding hemorhoid who stated he was going to kill us. My buddy and I had a few words about line of fire and stuff as I was bloody scared that I almost shot him.
Second was a guy who had just stabbed me 3 times while I was arresting him. I was lucky as the vest I wore stopped the rather broad bladed knife. Had it been a dagger or other severely pointed weapon it would have penetrated. I was in a down town park with old folks all around and facing a rather slightly built but rather insane street person. Another Officer and I ended up going hand to hand with him. I got the knife hand, she got the other one. The fight went through part of the park and into the street before I got him cuffed. The female Officer wasn't a whole lot of help and this guy was incredibly strong. When I searched him, I covered the trunk lid of a Chevy Nova with pointed and bladed weapons he had concealed on his person. It was winter and he was layered up in more ways than one with the outer layer being a GI field jacklet.
All the other situations I was able to defuse without having to get that serious so I got freaking lucky that I don't have to live with the memory of shooting someone.
Does that give me enough credibility for you here now?
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Mav, I am not looking for credibilty, I simply asked a question. Thanks for your response. I am not at all interested in getting into another gun debate.
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" I am not at all interested in getting into another gun debate."
considering your ability in said debates... Iwould say that you are making a wise decision in avoiding them.
lazs
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:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Dago
If he is convinced that he wants to use an outdated handgun with limited capacity, he might as well just get a 22.
Todays autos are so superior to revolvers it isnt funny. The 357 isnt the greatest round either.
I personally would recommend something along the lines of a Sig P226 in .40 SW.
dago
I would hope that you aren't serious.
First, the .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollow point is ballistically superior to ANYTHING you can put in a 40 Short & Weak. It is not even close. The only commonly carried handgun cartridge that compares well with the .357 Magnum 125 jacketed hollow point is the .45 ACP 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity, AKA the flying ashtray. Those two rank at the very top of the "one shot stop" category. The 40 Short and Weak isn't even close, at least not in ANY study I've seen, and I looked not too long ago, since I still have access to the same reports that the DoJ and most law enforcement agencies use.
Second, when it comes to personal defense, you don't need more than six rounds, most incidents are over in less than four shots.
Third, the Sig Sauer is a great weapon. Get a P220 in 45 ACP.
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The .357 Magnum is a good round, I prefer the 125 grain jacketed hollow point +P version myself, Federal makes a
nice one.
Despite having one as a duty weapon (it was a 686 Distinguished Combat Magum 4") I prefer to avoid the S&W weapons.
Ruger makes a number of very fine .357 Magnum revolvers. I prefer them as well as a good Colt.
In the proper holster, a 4" is as easily concealed as a 2", and far more useful.
While revolvers are inherently more accurate than self shuckers, a good self shucker is plenty accurate for personal defense.
All things considered, a revolver is also inherently more reliable than a self shucker of the same quality. Fewer moving parts performing fewer functions and operations.
Self shuckers are also easier to carry concealed, since they are flat, slab sided, and shorter, given the same barrel length.
HOWEVER, I STRONGLY suggest you avoid single action self shuckers such as the vaunted legendary Colt 1911 pattern. Do not get me wrong, I LOVE those guns. But they must be COCKED before they will fire, and confronting ANYONE with a cocked single action weapon leaves you VERY vulnerable to all sorts of criminal and civil actions. Carrying a single action self shucker is best left to seriously dedicated personnel. It (the 1911 pattern weapon)was never designed or intended to be used in a civilian environment. It was specifically designed to kill large numbers of ENEMY SOLDIERS as quickly and efficiently as possible. It does that well. But it is NOT the weapon for the inexperienced nervous civilian AKA the NDP (Non Dedicated Personnel).]
The Para Ordnance LDA is available in several versions for personal defence, and it is VERY good for that job. It combines the near divine perfection that John Moses Browning achieved when he gave us the Colt 1911, with the double action safety of the modern weapons world.
With a 45 ACP, the 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity is the best round, CCI-Speer is the most popular.
The secret to concealed carry for personal defense is to get the right weapon/holster combination for the INDIVIDUAL, and extensive practice and training. Find the weapon that best suits the inividual (the prerequisite being that it can be carried and concealed on the person carrying), and then find the holster that conceals it well but makes it available. Then train, and practice. If you are not willing to practice the draw and firing at leastonce a month, you probably should not carry. And do not forget to have a skilled gunsmith tune ANY weapon you purchase for personal defence. Do not be fooled by the Bravo Sierra, a good personal defence tune up INCLUDING a PERSONAL DEFENCE action job will NOT make you subject to more criminal or civil liabilities. The key being the action job done with personal defence in mind and not a target trigger action job.
Carrying concealed is exercising a right as a citizen that carries great responsibility and duty as a person and a citizen. Approach it in that manner and everything will work out as well as possible.
I hope that helps, and good luck to your brother.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I would hope that you aren't serious.
First, the .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollow point is ballistically superior to ANYTHING you can put in a 40 Short & Weak. It is not even close. The only commonly carried handgun cartridge that compares well with the .357 Magnum 125 jacketed hollow point is the .45 ACP 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity, AKA the flying ashtray. Those two rank at the very top of the "one shot stop" category. The 40 Short and Weak isn't even close, at least not in ANY study I've seen, and I looked not too long ago, since I still have access to the same reports that the DoJ and most law enforcement agencies use.
Second, when it comes to personal defense, you don't need more than six rounds, most incidents are over in less than four shots.
Third, the Sig Sauer is a great weapon. Get a P220 in 45 ACP.
I will second the Sig 220. Owned one for 12 years now, thousands of rounds through it, leave rounds in the factory mags year round and the springs last forever, and the gun never fails to fire.
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Best kind of gun for carrying is one you WILL carry period.
Get a full size toy revolver with a 4 inch bbl and try to carry it for a day.. a week, I bet you will soon find out that C.C. of a firearm is really a ***** day in and day out. I have had a CCP for 12 years and when someone tells me they also have a CCP I ask them to show me what they have on them right now, 99 percent of the time they need to go to the car to get the gun. The big deal is, if you are serous about carrying you must carry it all the time.
I have carried a SIG P220 i (a .45 auto) a PPK a Ruger Sec. Six with a 4"BBL and a Taurus Titanium .38 with a 1 3/4 bbl. They all get old in a big hurry and you tend to leave them in the car.
Weight is a BIG factor and the carry rig you have is also important.
I now slip in my pocket with my pocket knife every morning a KelTec .380 loaded with 7 rounds it weights less then my car keys and is smaller then my wallet.
http://www.kel-tec.com/p3at_pistol.htm
If you get one of these put 200 rounds through it to break it in before you put it in service, I have found it to very reliable. The .380 is the bottom line for defence, power wise but better then yelling at an bad guy.
The important thing it is for close up last resort use only, I know its limitations and it is good for nothing else, but it is with me every minute of the day every day.
For your first fire arm for learning and versatility I would recommend a 4" inch stainless 357 with good grips and use .38 spl for low cost training and fun and 140 grain silvertips by Winchester for defense.
My two cents
Regards
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A superior firearm is one that is available to you in time of need and one that you can hit with. Anything else is mere bells and whistles. You can't miss fast enough to make up for a single well placed hit. If you can carry it effectively and you can hit with it reliably including under conditions of stress then that IS a superior weapon, for you. A round that strikes home is far better than many whizzing past.
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Originally posted by Scooter
Get a full size toy revolver with a 4 inch bbl and try to carry it for a day.. a week
Unless the person in question allready has a CC, this is some very bad advise.
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(http://www.stiguns.com/guns/ls/images/LS05_800w.jpg)
The best carry gun at this time. STI make's some of the best guns on the market with a wide range of size. Their are $
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scooter is making a good point. You need to pick up a 340pd with 5 rounds of 125 grain HP in it... it weighs like a cell phone..
The universal reaction to that gun when I hand it to someone is "Is this a real gun?"
it is 12 oz. and small with wood grips it is even smaller and more slippery.. it will fit in your front pocket and be no more trouble than if it were a cell phone... basicaly... if you can carry a cell phone in your front pocket you can carry the 340pd..
It is "hammerless" so you could even fire it from the pocket... you may or may not be able to do that with a self loader but it would be hopelessly jammed after the first round.. with the PD... if won't be jammed... your clothes will be on fire but... the gun won't be jammed.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
scooter is making a good point. You need to pick up a 340pd with 5 rounds of 125 grain HP in it... it weighs like a cell phone..
...
It is "hammerless" so you could even fire it from the pocket... you may or may not be able to do that with a self loader but it would be hopelessly jammed after the first round.. with the PD... if won't be jammed... your clothes will be on fire but... the gun won't be jammed.
lazs
LOL! That puts a whole new spin on the term "hot-pants"
(rim shot)
It's funny, in the midst of poo-pooing wheelguns as a bad choice I was thinking the only possible exceptions being some of the hammerless .357s like the 340PD.
The bigger problem with them is price. The cheapest I've seen any of the airlights new was $600 which is well into what I term "permanent doghouse" pricing for me. I have no idea how much the Kel-Tec Scooter recommended goes for, but I'd be willing to bet it would be roughly half that.
Of course, you often get what you pay for.
- SEAGOON
(Who saved $50 by buying a .380 Browning BDA instead of a Sig P230 and has regretted his decision ever since)
Oh, and Curval, no and neither do I have a CCP.
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The 357 is a crap round favored by those who watch too much tv.
"I gots me a .357 MAG-A-NUM, I can shoot right through a car engine"
(when was the last time a car engine attacked you?)
I thought all the .357 fans converted to .44 Magnum after they watched the Dirty Harry movies?
Revolvers suck. Slow shooting, too much recoil, not very accurate, tend to blow the topstrap off, hard and slow to reload, they do jam, and girls dont dig revolver shooters like they do auto pistols shooters.
Autos hold lots more ammo so you can kill more bad guys. They reload quicker, absorb recoil and just look so dang much cooler when you pose in front of your harley. Thats why auto guys get more girls.
Face it, there is a reason virtually every military and police force in the world has switched to autos. Revolvers suck.
heheheheheheheheheh
The truth is out there, and sometimes it hurts.
dago
man of many autos :)
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Originally posted by Dago
The 357 is a crap round favored by those who watch too much tv.
"I gots me a .357 MAG-A-NUM, I can shoot right through a car engine"
(when was the last time a car engine attacked you?)
I thought all the .357 fans converted to .44 Magnum after they watched the Dirty Harry movies?
Revolvers suck. Slow shooting, too much recoil, not very accurate, tend to blow the topstrap off, hard and slow to reload, they do jam, and girls dont dig revolver shooters like they do auto pistols shooters.
Autos hold lots more ammo so you can kill more bad guys. They reload quicker, absorb recoil and just look so dang much cooler when you pose in front of your harley. Thats why auto guys get more girls.
Face it, there is a reason virtually every military and police force in the world has switched to autos. Revolvers suck.
heheheheheheheheheh
The truth is out there, and sometimes it hurts.
dago
man of many autos :)
er... I think that the reason why police departments switched to autos aad something to do with magazine capacity and ease in reloading.
slow shooting? hmmm the world champion speed shooter uses a... hmmm.
inaccurate? perhaps in your hands.
but that's ok I like autos too I just don't carry one.
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Heh, Dago they only invented auto-loaders cause some of yall werent quite bright enuff to figure out how to reload a revolver, and yall kept throwin the dang things away when ya ran outta ammo. I know, I seen them movies where the guy runs outta rounds and throws the gun. Thats ok though. If you think your auto-loader makes you better somehow, I wont interfere with your therapy. Some men need such things to make them feel less insecure I hear. If its workin, then I'll give ya a Salute and wish you well.
:cool:
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Heh, Dago they only invented auto-loaders cause some of yall werent quite bright enuff to figure out how to reload a revolver, and yall kept throwin the dang things away when ya ran outta ammo. ...
Nope, that's Chow Yun Fat you're thinking of and he throws away pistols when the mag is empty. Also in the too stupid to find the magazine release is Keanu Reeves from the Matrix series. :D
But hey, they dump their guns with such panache you just gotta love them anyway.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Dago
The 357 is a crap round favored by those who watch too much tv.
"I gots me a .357 MAG-A-NUM, I can shoot right through a car engine"
(when was the last time a car engine attacked you?)
I thought all the .357 fans converted to .44 Magnum after they watched the Dirty Harry movies?
Revolvers suck. Slow shooting, too much recoil, not very accurate, tend to blow the topstrap off, hard and slow to reload, they do jam, and girls dont dig revolver shooters like they do auto pistols shooters.
Autos hold lots more ammo so you can kill more bad guys. They reload quicker, absorb recoil and just look so dang much cooler when you pose in front of your harley. Thats why auto guys get more girls.
Face it, there is a reason virtually every military and police force in the world has switched to autos. Revolvers suck.
heheheheheheheheheh
The truth is out there, and sometimes it hurts.
dago
man of many autos :)
"absorb recoil"? Wow. We talking shotguns here?
"Slow Shooting"? Just as slow as the dipchit shooting it is going.
"not very accurate"? only as inaccurate as the same dipchit is able to shoot it.
You have proven to the AH community you know nothing. Thanks.
Karaya
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Hmmmmmmmm... a troll that has caught a few allready and hasn`t been muzzled yet.
How refreshing. May be some hope yet.
Besides that everyone knows that your only cool if you hold the semi-auto sideways and you never stand in front of your Harley when about to be engaged in a gun fight. Custom paint is just too expensive these days. :)
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the reason most police forces went to semi autos was because they had to allow women and small italian men on the forces..
It is difficult to get good with a .357 for a lot of people. A lot of cops don't like guns so only train when they really have to these days... self loaders are great for this..
Training now consists of 15 weak rounds in a mag and standing 5 feet from the target... the object is to see how quickly you can empty the gun... if you get caught with your eyes closed and head turned... you have to do it again.
The average gunfight lasted 1.7 rounds when the .357 was standard police issue.. with the plastic self shuckers now in vouge... it has risen to more than 5 rounds per fight. worse... the police lose more fights now than 20 years ago.
I like 44 mags and 45's but that is because they are easier to reload the ammo and they are more versitile but the .357 is still the king of the people stoppers and the king of paper punchers.
A self loader that is close to the accuracy of a .357 runs double the price... past 50 yards... there really aren't any... none you could carry anyway.
The 340pd is very expensive and you won't enjoy shooting it. I can barely stand shooting 5 rounds out of it but.... it is the lightest most effective carry gun available today.
lazs
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Originally posted by Dago
The 357 is a crap round favored by those who watch too much tv.
"I gots me a .357 MAG-A-NUM, I can shoot right through a car engine"
(when was the last time a car engine attacked you?)
I thought all the .357 fans converted to .44 Magnum after they watched the Dirty Harry movies?
Revolvers suck. Slow shooting, too much recoil, not very accurate, tend to blow the topstrap off, hard and slow to reload, they do jam, and girls dont dig revolver shooters like they do auto pistols shooters.
Autos hold lots more ammo so you can kill more bad guys. They reload quicker, absorb recoil and just look so dang much cooler when you pose in front of your harley. Thats why auto guys get more girls.
Face it, there is a reason virtually every military and police force in the world has switched to autos. Revolvers suck.
heheheheheheheheheh
The truth is out there, and sometimes it hurts.
dago
man of many autos :)
:rolleyes:
So much wrong with all of that there's no need to dignify any of it with an actual reply. The two "smilies" say it all.
:rolleyes:
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When I had to qualify for MCOLES when I worked at the Michigan National Bank Cash Vault, we had to go through the same training a police officer did.
When I first started, I had a J-Frame S&W .38 Special. I never once had a problem qualifying with it. Then along came the POS Beretta Cougar .40 we carried. I had 3 stovepipes in 50 rounds and went back to same J-Frame. Everyone else "dealt with" their own issues with that Beretta.
I wished I could have carried my USP .45 instead. But, the S&W never once failed to fire.
Karaya
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Revolvers suck... - Dago
Training now consists of 15 weak rounds in a mag and standing 5 feet from the target... the object is to see how quickly you can empty the gun... if you get caught with your eyes closed and head turned... you have to do it again. - Lazs
A lot of crap is being slung in this thread. Revolvers are preferred by a lot of people who carry concealed guns for protection day in, day out, because you know they are more likely to work even if you neglect them.
The police training comment - you're crank yankin' there Lazs. :D You'd be impressed with police training in Florida. Qualification at the range is one thing... we no longer shoot further than 50 feet when qualifying with handguns... but "qualifying" is only a part of our firearm training. There is a ****load of scenario based shooting, building search and tactical and combat stuff that we do. We also shoot up thousands $$$ of dollars in simunitions every year too. Training has never been better. Muscle memory is drilled right into these hard heads until they can do what they have to do on auto pilot, without thinking. The people I work with are very competent, and they train the same way at the academy.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Besides that everyone knows that your only cool if you hold the semi-auto sideways and you never stand in front of your Harley when about to be engaged in a gun fight. Custom paint is just too expensive these days. :)
Semi-Auto? Come now Jackal, we all know its called a "Gat" and one does not merely hold it sideways one "busts a cap" whilst aiming at the rear of ones opposition. Expressions of how the target is in fact a female dog who seems to have wanted this to happen are also appropriate.
Booyah Homie J,
SEEGZ
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I don't know about you guys, but I'm a nail driver with my Smith and Wesson Police Special .38 special revolver. That bullet goes exactly where I want it to go.
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gunthr.. I don't live in Florida... I watch police train here for 4 different agencies..
Do they train that women on shotguns by standing behind them and propping em up so they don't fall down when they fire?
The swat guys train like you are talking about here.
I am not near the shot I was when I was younger but I can beat at least 99% of the cops that come through here.
lazs
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Afraid I have to agree with Lazs, no disrespect to any police officer intended. The marksmanship of most of the HPD is a running joke here, barring the few who shoot "off the clock" with one or more of the various gun clubs on the island. Even they admit the average police officer couldnt hit the broad side of a barn from more than 10 yards away. Some cities may train the officers harder than others, and I commend them for doing so. I've seen it in more than one place though. I've shot on the same ranges the police qualify on in 3 different cities, and in all 3 it made me glad I was born with decent hand/eye coordination and know how to shoot a gun properly.
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Do they train that women on shotguns by standing behind them and propping em up so they don't fall down when they fire? - Lazs
LOL thats a whole different topic - women cops. I take the 5th on that. ;) In Detroit I've seen a female terminated for cowardice. She confronted a burgler, she drew her weapon but her hand was shaking so much the burgler took it away from her and ran away. I've also seen a black female officer in Detroit trying to qualify at the range with her attorney present because she still couldn't do it after repeated, mutliple attempts and her job was on the chopping block. Pathetic. They (women) resort to lethal force much quicker than males because they can't fight without the upper body strength and stamina, and when they do draw, they can't shoot, most of them.
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It is a shame about those agencies that don't do quality firearm training. But many do train for survival and tactical beyond "marksmanship." The Hollywood bank robbery with automatic weapons and shoot outs like the one with the 5 FBI agents in Miami with the two bank robbery suspects with the assault rifles vs. revolvers had its effect in this business. I know one of those agents who survived and is now an assistant SAO in Broward County prosecuting public corruption. Hanlon is his name. There was a lot of inertia and outdated equipment and training in the past, but things are changing in the progressive agencies. Why should the special teams be the only ones with survival training?
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Afraid I have to agree with Lazs, no disrespect to any police officer intended. The marksmanship of most of the HPD is a running joke here, barring the few who shoot "off the clock" with one or more of the various gun clubs on the island. Even they admit the average police officer couldnt hit the broad side of a barn from more than 10 yards away. Some cities may train the officers harder than others, and I commend them for doing so. I've seen it in more than one place though. I've shot on the same ranges the police qualify on in 3 different cities, and in all 3 it made me glad I was born with decent hand/eye coordination and know how to shoot a gun properly.
Wow... that inspires confidence :( But I guess I'm not really that surprised. Comparing the mentality of PD brass in a state like Florida or Texas to that of California or Hawaii would probably be like night and day I assume.
I definitely would have come for the last public range day / fair at Koko Head if I had heard about it (nothing on TV.. hmmm....) and wasn't already involved in something. I intend to go through the "process" sooner or later and that would've been a neat way to shoot various handguns. I could work out in my head or read through all the theoretical discussions on all the different gun forums available about caliber, revolver vs semi but I won't be able to truly figure out what would work for me unless I've tried it. CCP won't figure into the equation here though.
"... women and small italian men..." priceless :rofl
mauser
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Like in any other area of career there are those who do well and others who just get by. Many Officers try to rely on statistics or the faint hope that it will always happen to the "other guy". Those are the ones who don't take the range seriously and don't shoot any more than what is required by the job.
FWIW all the range prep is great and all but only an absolute fool expects the same degree of accuracy from a calm controlled range to appear in a radically different street gunfight situation. It's an entirely different situation when the rounds suddenly start whizzing past and you have to react instantly. Between the adrenaline dump, tunnel vision and the need to move and shoot at the same time things get a bit hectic. Until you have experianced it it's rather hard to have a real understanding of it. It really can't be adequately expressed in words, especially in written form.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Semi-Auto? Come now Jackal, we all know its called a "Gat" and one does not merely hold it sideways one "busts a cap" whilst aiming at the rear of ones opposition. Expressions of how the target is in fact a female dog who seems to have wanted this to happen are also appropriate.
Booyah Homie J,
SEEGZ
Word. :)
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I carry a glock 20c with the g light on the picatinny and chopped to a 29 for front pocket carry.
In the winter I carry a S&W 500 shorty. It is bigger so it does not go well with summer clothes.
I love the S&W revolver. It is very reliable and makes a real mess.
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Oh yeah, I strongly recommend front pocket carry. I have been robbed many times. Reaching anywhere other than a wallet area can get you killed. Most confrontations are toe to toe for reasons of intimidation.
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Most of the KC area cops shoot at our Private Club range.
Why? The Departments all closed/abandoned their ranges at some time in the past. Budget problems led to them all slowly dropping individual ranges and using common police range. Then they closed that one too.
Kinda shows what priority they put on shooting.
We don't mind. We let them us it for basically nothing. We figure it'll help keep us from getting shut down when the first Kalifornicator moves into our area and wants to live out in the country, immediately complaining about the gunfire and danger. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
Most of the KC area cops shoot at our Private Club range.
Why? The Departments all closed/abandoned their ranges at some time in the past. Budget problems led to them all slowly dropping individual ranges and using common police range. Then they closed that one too.
Kinda shows what priority they put on shooting.
We don't mind. We let them us it for basically nothing. We figure it'll help keep us from getting shut down when the first Kalifornicator moves into our area and wants to live out in the country, immediately complaining about the gunfire and danger. ;)
I've lived in southmorland for six years, been in many situations. I can honestly say that it is irrelevant weather the local police have any skill with a firearm or not. Their record for me is 45 minutes to respond (averaging well over an hour) .
Most criminals will die of natural causes before a gunfight will ever ensue.
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Originally posted by mauser
Wow... that inspires confidence :( But I guess I'm not really that surprised. Comparing the mentality of PD brass in a state like Florida or Texas to that of California or Hawaii would probably be like night and day I assume.
I definitely would have come for the last public range day / fair at Koko Head if I had heard about it (nothing on TV.. hmmm....) and wasn't already involved in something. I intend to go through the "process" sooner or later and that would've been a neat way to shoot various handguns. I could work out in my head or read through all the theoretical discussions on all the different gun forums available about caliber, revolver vs semi but I won't be able to truly figure out what would work for me unless I've tried it. CCP won't figure into the equation here though.
"... women and small italian men..." priceless :rofl
mauser
Dont even mention that about the "no advertising" thing, several of us were a bit ticked at the HRA (Hawaii Rifle Association) for not advertising this year. HRA sponsors the Shooting Sports Fair btw. They couldnt even be bothered to put dates and times on their website. I believe someone said they advertised on the talk radio station (97.5?), but since no one really listens to it none of us really knew for sure lol.
SASH (the club I belong to) does its shooting competitions out at Koko Head every 4th Sunday. Our website is
http://www.sashgunclub.com
The LIFE group (gun safety instruction) also meets out there on the weekends. To get a permit for a handgun in Hawaii you have to have passed the NRA handgun safety course. They have a good program with very competent instructors.
http://lifehawaii.com/
If you are looking to try handguns and find something you like, try Magnum firearms on Queen St. downtown. They do NRA certified handgun training also, and have an indoor range. To get your permit to acquire, as I said above, you have to have passed the handgun safety course. No one on the island does it better than them. You can check them out at
http://www.magnum50.com
I really cant stress enough how thorough their NRA instruction class is. I havent taken it personally, but I've watched parts of them being given, and I have talked to folks that went through it. They are very reasonable on gun rental fees for the range, and have a wide selection of guns. I'd rate them as one of the top 3 gun stores on the island, and the only one of the top stores that has a range as well. You want to stay away from the ranges in Waikiki, they are overpriced and aimed at drawing in tourists with too much money and not enough sense (at least so far as I have seen). Young Guns has a decent selection, but their hours of business are restrictive and they are kinda out of the way. Also, while the guys are knowledgeable enough, some of them seem to have an attitude problem. Maybe its just me. Windward Guns in Hawaii Kai is a great little store, but their selection is very small. Mostly he special orders stuff for people, but that means he cant get great prices like some of the bigger stores. I shop there because its close to the range and because I love the slightly cluttered, organized chaos of his shop. Its like my gun closet back home, only with more ammo. :)
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Ah.. well that explains the lack of advertisement.
I had done a little research at another forum (The High Road) and a poster there clued me in on how difficult it is to get a handgun here. At least three separate visits to the HPD station I think it was. Much simpler with a rifle (no NRA class and notarized certificate required). I'll probably end up going to the LIFE class when I get to that point since it is really close to home anyway. Wife and I used to live less than a block from Magnum Firearms, but I wasn't quite ready yet. Thanks for the tip about them though - I'll lean towards them when the time comes.
Oh yeah, I wouldn't bother with the Waikiki gun clubs. They seem to cater primarily to Japanese tourists and their $$. Actually we try to avoid Waikiki for the most part anyway :).
At one time I totally ignored the posibility of owning a revolver. Now after doing more thoughtful reading I'm aware both platforms have their advantages and disadvantages. What's more important is getting something that you'll be comfortable training with and shooting. Especially when it'll probably be your only firearm due to budget, space, or whatever reason.
mauser
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Another thing that must be considered for those of us living in Paradise. Availability of ammo. Staying with .38/.357 for revolvers helps keep the cost down. Its the most common. You can go to Sports Authority and buy .38 special ammo for 3 bucks a box, while my .45LCs are 24 bucks a box. It almost forces you to stay with 9mm if you go semi-auto, because of cost restrictions on anything else. Forget about mail order too, because everything comes by air frieght. Unless you can find someone willing to ship on the proverbial (but perhaps literal in this case) "slow boat to china", you are out of luck. No form of explosive can be shipped via air freight. Luckily, one of the guys in our club does shipping, so he can get us oddball stuff. But it has to be ordered well in advance and done in quantity. For instance, my Winchester .30-30 is a great little gun, but unusable in my cowboy shooting club. However, I found a guy who will do a conversion for me to make it a .38-55. All well and good, but no one on the island sells .38-55, so unless I can get them sent via this guy, I'll have to order just brass and bullets and load my own.
Anyway, just walk in at Magnum and tell them what you want in a gun. They will help you find what is comfortable for you, and will fill your needs. I'm thinking of using the range a few days myself next week, to work on getting more accurate with my .45. Since I work downtown, its a short drive down Queen St.
Oh, and just so you know. This weekend (the 3rd) is the Civil War shoot out at KokoHead. Alot of guys from the Historic Arms Society will have their CW stuff out. Alot of them arent replicas either, these are real period pieces being loaded and fired. One of our group that will be there has 2 CW Springfiled rifles that fire the minie-ball setup. I think those things are like .69 caliber? Huge. He also has a trapdoor Springfield shooting .45-70s.
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It pays off to wear a jacket at summertime so everyone THINKS youre packing even if you don't.
Won't that be a better guarantee of staying out of trouble than a perp that gets your cc as a surprise?
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When I was younger and living in the bay area I used to go to a range there and every time I went there were cops there practicing for some police pistol competition.. I used to have a lot of fun shooting with those guys...They were very good shots.
I have never seen any cop (of the maybe couple hundred that use the range out at work)... I have never seen any one of em come out and shoot unless he was forced to. I have shot with the instructors when things were slow and I goaded em into it but that is about it.
Things are different... at least in my area.
SOA... why don't you get into reloading?
lazs
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It pays off to wear a jacket at summertime so everyone THINKS youre packing even if you don't.
Won't that be a better guarantee of staying out of trouble than a perp that gets your cc as a surprise?
Yea, that would work great here in Texas...........for robbers, muggers, etc.
You would allready be dead of heat exhaustion. The wallet would would be easy to take.
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SOA,
If you are into Cowboy competition why don't you use one of the repro pistol caliber rifles. Getting one in .357, 44, or 45 LC would fit the bill for competition and be much easier on ammo costs I'd imagine. I also second Laz's suggestion for reloading. I know getting components might be a bit more of a problem there more than the mainland but you should still be able to get them cheaper than ammo. Is there a source for cast bullets there?
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Actually I fully intend to get into reloading. While I've owned guns and been a shooter most of my life, I just got bit by this bug a few months ago. Most of my guns arent useable in CAS type competitions. My .30-30 Winchester is the only gun I could even remotely have considered "cowboy." Because its a modern "rifle" caliber gun and way too powerful for CAS use, I was looking at buying one of the .38/.357/.45LC guns. Problem is, used ones are difficult to find here, as the market is limited, and new ones are outrageously expensive. I can send mine off and have it rebarreled and setup for shooting .38-55s for around $200. The nice thing is, the .45 LCs I shoot in my revolver, the .38-55s I want to have my rifle rebuilt to use, and the 12 ga. shotgun shells all take very well to black powder. Its just a matter of buying the various setups I need for reloading 3 different kinds of shells. I just have to find reloading equipment that works for all 3 that works with black powder. No electricity or static buildup is allowed on black powder reloading equipment.
As for getting the lead, no worries. We ship enough of that in already for the guys who are reloading now that adding mine on is no problem. I can buy the bullets pre-formed or buy lead and cast my own.
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I would go with pyrodex rather than black. More stable, cleaner burning, non corrosive and a bit easier to load. You still get the smoke but not nearly as an intense odor. I think the pyrodex would be compatible with most modern loading equipment.
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when I was casting bullets I used to get all the free wheel weights I wanted.
lazs
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Springfiled rifles that fire the minie-ball setup. I think those things are like .69 caliber? Huge
most likey 58 cals..still a big shot...a ounce of lead:)..shot my brothers springfield a few times..accurate as hell...it impressed me at the gun range..i nailed a 500 yard ding target every shot...i could hardly see the target..just heard the nice metal ding when i hit it..500 yards dont seem that far till your at a real shooting range tring to see that far...hehe.target was proubly the size of a big dog...but it was so far out my site would allmost cover it up..lol
the cowboy matches look fun..i got a colt dragoon i take out once and a while...my buddy who went to the police acadamy and works for the fbi in a federal building when out shooting with me...i took my erfurt 1914 artillery luger and my dragoon..he brung out his custom kimber 45<~~what he carries at work...and a m1 grand...we sat out there shooting and checking out each others guns...i let him shoot my colt dragoon..at 70 yards he was nailing the target...he looked at me amazed...he said..i have shot allmost everything besides black powder pistols..he swears his custom kimber doesnt even match how accurate mine was...he now owns 3 black powder pistols including a dragoon..lol...sure are slower to load..but there fun..best to get extra cilinders and preload them..they even have conversion cilinders to convert the colt dragoon into 45 cartrige
i like new and old firearms...best to try them all to see what you like...357 is a good round...i shot a few of them..last one i shot was a ruger 4inch barrel..it shot good.. lots of power too..any one like that cz pistol? shoots like a 7.62 by 25 i believe?..simple..looks like a good auto to carry..cheap and reliable i hear... cost only about 150bucks at the most
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I would go with pyrodex rather than black. More stable, cleaner burning, non corrosive and a bit easier to load.
ummm i got pyrodex...its ok..but i think it stinks twice as much as goex black powder...pyrodex smells more like rotten eggs..tons of sulfer i reckon..lol..we have goex and pyrodex at the range last month..the pyrodex produced so much smoke we had to wait to keep shooting..the goex seemed to make less smoke and didnt stink half as bad...i swear by goex powders..double f and triple f..goex makes a non corrosive powder too
as for loading..i couldnt tell a diffrence when smashing the ball down...as for cleaning..umm doesnt matter what powder you use..you should clean it after shooting that night..with soap and hot water...oil them up..then blast a cap or 2 threw the nipples.cleans them up like new:)
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after about 50 yards you want to go to a revolver round in most cases. I have a Kimber 45 that will shoot with my 44 mags out to 50 yards but much more than that and the front sight isn't even tall enough to make up for the trajectory. There are exceptions... The 357 sig shoots pretty flat but I haven't shot one that was very accurate yet.
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
I would go with pyrodex rather than black. More stable, cleaner burning, non corrosive and a bit easier to load. You still get the smoke but not nearly as an intense odor. I think the pyrodex would be compatible with most modern loading equipment.
I'm using Pyrodex now, altho all the other BP guys here use Goex. Pyrodex is actually more corrosive than true black powder. I use it because it is the cheapest, and most commonly available. If I adjust all my loads for Pyrodex, I can be assured of getting it anywhere I go and never having to change my load because of different combustability. Goex is only available here through the fella in my club. None of the stores carry it.
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Hyena,
I said cleaner burning as in my rifle I can get more shots before having to swab the barrel when shooting pyrodex than black. I use a percussion cap 45 and 50 cal. rifle for hunting. Avg. powder charge is 100 grains for the 45 and 120 for the 50.
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awww..i see..you using patch and ball or mini ball mav?....ya that sounds about right..my brother uses 120 grains of double f in his 58 cal springfeild..thing is pretty accurate for a old gun:) i run about 50 grains in my dragoon..i shot a old can of food with it last week..put a nice hole in the front..and blew a fist size hole out the back..it really throws it out there with 50 grains in that pistol..but i wouldnt recomend that kinda load for anything smaller than a dragoon or walker
Goex is only available here through the fella in my club. None of the stores carry it.
ya i know,,after 9-11 they changed the rules and you have to jump threw hoops and have a fire safe to get real black powder:( lucky i found a cowboy shooter ammo and gun seller about 30miles from me that has the licence to carry real black powder and its only 10bucks a pound!!:)
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Hyena,
I use a greatly reduced load for patch and ball. For hunting I use a conical bullet, solid not a minie. The .45 is about 250 gr. and the 50 is 350 gr I think. I tried to use the sabot's but didn't get good accuracy with them. Since the rifling is engraved on loading fouling is an issue for follow up shots. Using black I get 2 maybe 3 shots before having to swab out the bore. With pyrodex I'd get 6 to 8 shots. Pyro is harder to ignite but I like it better than black.
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I like to shoot stuff.
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LOL, I havent been this amused in a long time.
Revolvers are just a way for those John Wayne wannabees to compensate for tiny units in the shorts. :)
(first he threw the bait, then he played the bait on the water, then he sat back and reeled them in, laughing at them all).
Then he tossed one more jab for those really lacking perception. :)
dago
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Originally posted by Dago
LOL, I havent been this amused in a long time.
Revolvers are just a way for those John Wayne wannabees to compensate for tiny units in the shorts. :)
(first he threw the bait, then he played the bait on the water, then he sat back and reeled them in, laughing at them all).
Then he tossed one more jab for those really lacking perception. :)
dago
Oh you mean the jab at your own stupidity? That's what we knew all along.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Dago
LOL, I havent been this amused in a long time.
Revolvers are just a way for those John Wayne wannabees to compensate for tiny units in the shorts. :)
(first he threw the bait, then he played the bait on the water, then he sat back and reeled them in, laughing at them all).
Then he tossed one more jab for those really lacking perception. :)
dago
Hehe, I keep picturing that scene from the old movie City Heat with Burt Reynolds and Clint Eastwood, where they pull out their guns with the really long barrels, and Burt looks so dissapointed that his is shorter. :)
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lol..geesh..cant even have a freindy gun chat with one some one tring to ruin it :D..jk
clint eastwoods spagettii westerns were the shiznitz....ill never forget that last part in good bad and the ugly . the finaly show down to finish the man with no name series..in the middle of that civil war cemetery..angel eyes carrying a new army revolver...clint carrying a colt navy i believe..duco or how ever his name is spelled in the movie..has a colt dragoon with the conversion cilinder kit on it{even know it didnt come till after the civil war} one of the best down and dirty westerns of its day...<~~never carred too much for the singing cowboy westerns..lol
ya mav..shooting patch and ball you defenatly need clean burning powder..hard to get the ram rod down with patch and a dirty barrel..i seen a guy with a hawkins allmost break his ram rod tring to get it down barrel..those mini balls are really easly to load..we would shoot all day with out any troubles or missfires..every gun needs a little diffrent care and powder
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Originally posted by Dago
LOL, I havent been this amused in a long time.
Are you one of those guys that has to put a flashlight, laser, compensator and extended magazine on your gun before you feel "ready"?
Oh, and don't forget to buy the latest fad in "self-defense" ammo. If you didn't pay $30 for six rounds of it, don't expect it to be effective. Would you trust your life to anything less?
:rofl
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I'm still trying to find the 88 Magnum I saw in Johnny Dangerously.
"It shoots through schools."
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A handgun with a rail to hold a flashlight... Now there's a fad that is gonna embarass some people a decade from now... Oh well... you can allways use the rail to mount a bayonet or rocket launcher.
lazs
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Lazs, have you seen the new shooting series on TV? I think it's called "Pimp My Nine".
:D
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Funny stuff.
No, dont have a rail gun, nor any lazers, no tactical light, not even any scopes, (other than a small one that came with a .22 rifle I got as a kid, and not sure where that scope is now).
But, among my small collection of handguns, no revolvers. Not particularly attracted to them.
No scope on my rifles, and I shoot trap and skeet with my old hunting shotgun, (changeable chokes though).
Dont feel the need to keep a gun loaded in the house, rarely have ammo even near a weapon. Not paranoid, and dont feel I need a loaded weapon to feel secure.
Yes, autos can help absorb recoil. Shoot the 44mag in a Ruger revolver, than shoot the 44 mag in a Desert Eagle. Big differance in felt recoil. Anyone with any experience with handguns knows that.
And NO, I dont not believe that we will ever experience a "SHTF" time or event in our lives, and I do not stock ammo and web gear for that eventuality.
The guns I do own and shoot I do so because I enjoy it. Like flying an airplane, or driving a nice car, I enjoy these pastimes because I appreciate that machinery, the speed, the whatever.
So, blabber on, insult me if it makes you feel better about yourselves, I dont care, I know who and what I am in real life, I enjoy the success in my life, family and career, and I just love seeing fools get torqued up about nonsense.
BTW I am typing this from a hotel/resort in Arizona where I am staying while on a business trip, and it is sweet. Later this month I am off to Rome again.
dago
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Rule 7
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Originally posted by Dago
Funny stuff.
So, blabber on, insult me if it makes you feel better about yourselves, I dont care, I know who and what I am in real life, I enjoy the success in my life, family and career, and I just love seeing fools get torqued up about nonsense.
dago
LOL
So says the man who gave us such classic lines in this very thread as "Revolvers are just a way for those John Wayne wannabees to compensate for tiny units in the shorts". I dont see that anyone here insulted you my friend. Responded to your fishin stories yes, but no one was any more insulting than you were yourlself. Take that as you wish. Enjoy Rome! :)
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nothin says cya like a 45 Kimber ultra carry conceals much better than a revolver prolly lighter too
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
LOL
So says the man who gave us such classic lines in this very thread as "Revolvers are just a way for those John Wayne wannabees to compensate for tiny units in the shorts".
I have to assume you dont understand the concept of baiting.
I dont see that anyone here insulted you my friend. Responded to your fishin stories yes, but no one was any more insulting than you were yourlself. Take that as you wish. Enjoy Rome! :) [/B]
I think your powers of observation are lacking, it seems among other comments, there was this one by Masherbrum/karaya
Oh you mean the jab at your own stupidity? That's what we knew all along.
Read the whole thread before you comment on what people have or havent said. Thanks.
Some say I get personal, and sometimes I do when someone pisses me off by insulting or attacking my country. I guess I am not the only one guilty of personal attacks.
I have had some fun here, but sadly a few dorks gotta get nasty.
The reality is the .357 has very strong ballistics. Revolvers are fine weapons, but really arent considered by many to be ideal carry weapons. But, for someone buying thier first handgun I wouldnt recommend the .357, I would suggest something less powerful that they could learn to shoot comfortably, and after plenty of practice, then move up to a large or stronger caliber.
dago
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Originally posted by Deth7
nothin says cya like a 45 Kimber ultra carry conceals much better than a revolver prolly lighter too
Excellant choice for a carry weapon.
dago
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if you dislike revolvers..thats fine..but alot of people including me like them..i didnt like hearing revolvers suck in your previous post..or we have small weeners because we like them...i never made a rude comment to you about liking auto's..or said your privates are small because you needed more than 6 shots.. can we keep civil atleast?
why did ya feal like you needed to bait for a negitive responce?
i like autos. <~~own a bunch of them..i like revolvers..black powders..bolt actions..clip fed..belt fed..harper fed..strip clip fed...tube fed...guns of all types..my buddy has a kimber custom 45..shoots great..good and tuff gun
i do alot of skeet shooting my self..enjoy it alot..got a old westerfield pump..and im thinking of buying this old 10 gage double barrel with long goose barrels on it..lol..that skeet shooting is a blast:) do you use the spring loaded thrower? or the hand tosser?we got a springloaded thrower...enjoy it alot compared to the old hand tosser..lol
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Originally posted by Dago
But, for someone buying thier first handgun I wouldnt recommend the .357, I would suggest something less powerful that they could learn to shoot comfortably, and after plenty of practice, then move up to a large or stronger caliber.
dago
Agree.
They could start with say... a .38 Special and learn to shoot that comfortably. The light loads are real easy on a beginner.
Then they could move up to say a .38 +P loads for a few boxes and if they got comfortable with that...
they could move up to .357's.
And they could do it all with one revolver. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
Agree.
They could start with say... a .38 Special and learn to shoot that comfortably. The light loads are real easy on a beginner.
Then they could move up to say a .38 +P loads for a few boxes and if they got comfortable with that...
they could move up to .357's.
And they could do it all with one revolver. ;)
SHHHH!
This is the O'Club, no common sense allowed.;)
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Sig Sauer P220 .45 Cal is the best weapon in my safe.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Sig Sauer P220 .45 Cal is the best weapon in my safe.
That is indeed an excellent weapon. One of my favorites.
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On the sig 220 in .45
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
That is indeed an excellent weapon. One of my favorites.
I like mine so much I am tempted to buy another in stainless.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
On the sig 220 in .45
I like mine so much I am tempted to buy another in stainless.
Mine is TT.
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well... if you are a woman or small italian then you probly should not own any revolvers. It is best to just get a collection of very expensive semi autos and tell everyone that you don't like them and that shooting past 50 yards is impossible anyway.
If I were you tho dago... I would buy an old K frame smith in 22 caliber with the smallest grips available and try to learn to handle the recoil... you could work up to larger revolvers (with small grips of course) untill you worked up to semi useful ones like the 38 special.
Of course... you will probly never be able to handle a real powerful hundgun but so long as you have a lot of short range semi autos that are "state of the art" around...
maybe no one will notice?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... if you are a woman or small italian then you probly should not own any revolvers. It is best to just get a collection of very expensive semi autos and tell everyone that you don't like them and that shooting past 50 yards is impossible anyway.
If I were you tho dago... I would buy an old K frame smith in 22 caliber with the smallest grips available and try to learn to handle the recoil... you could work up to larger revolvers (with small grips of course) untill you worked up to semi useful ones like the 38 special.
Of course... you will probly never be able to handle a real powerful hundgun but so long as you have a lot of short range semi autos that are "state of the art" around...
maybe no one will notice?
lazs
Shooting past 50 yards isn't impossible, it's just highly improbable. How many self-defense situations take place at that distance? You'd have a heck of a time explaining that in court.
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there's more to handguns than self defense... even if it is one of the more fun things.
lazs
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I had a crappy Mak 90 AK, and a Ruger Single Six .357.
With my oldmans handloads I could shoot almost as well from a rest at 100 yards with the ruger.
When I shot it on the indoor rangers I always put the targets at 50 or 25 yards (max depending on the range) to make shooting a challenge.
Very accurate handgun.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Shooting past 50 yards isn't impossible, it's just highly improbable. How many self-defense situations take place at that distance? You'd have a heck of a time explaining that in court.
You...........ah...........do realize, that some states have legal HUNTING seasons that use handguns? For example, deer hunting in Illinois. My brother uses a Colt .44 Magnum with a 10 inch barrel for deer hunting during their handgun season. The gun is considered accurate up to around 200 yards.
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Originally posted by lazs2
there's more to handguns than self defense... even if it is one of the more fun things.
lazs
Yeah. I just assumed, wrongly I suppose, that he was looking for a carry piece.
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... if you are a woman or small italian then you probly should not own any revolvers. It is best to just get a collection of very expensive semi autos and tell everyone that you don't like them and that shooting past 50 yards is impossible anyway.
If I were you tho dago... I would buy an old K frame smith in 22 caliber with the smallest grips available and try to learn to handle the recoil... you could work up to larger revolvers (with small grips of course) untill you worked up to semi useful ones like the 38 special.
Of course... you will probly never be able to handle a real powerful hundgun but so long as you have a lot of short range semi autos that are "state of the art" around...
maybe no one will notice?
lazs
Funny lazs, but since you are kinda old I will not get indignant with you.
I am neither a woman, small or italian.
My .45 is now 33 years old, and I bought it new. I have an idea how to handle it. I also own a Browning Buckmark Bullseye that is fun to shoot, accurate, and came in handy while I was shooting in a competitive league. I have also used it in bowling pin competitions and did quite well with it. Those are two of my handguns.
I own a few other weapons, but unlike some, I do it because I enjoy them, not because it fills some need in me to bolster my self-confidence nor because I need to build up my self-esteem. If that shoe fits you, feel free to wear it.
If you find you need to tell everyone about your weapons, it probably does fit. Seems you have posted many many times about your weapons.
As far as "short range" handguns, most handguns are of course "short range" weapons. A few exceptions might be cited, such as the Thompson Contender, but the majority of shooters have the sense to realize that a rifle is a superior long range weapon.
Proper tool for the job. Not many SWAT snipers are seen hunkering down preparing to take out a bad guy with a revolver. Fact is, not many police or military carry revolvers anymore. Gee, I wonder why that is?
The truth is out there if you look.
dago
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It appears some one here is completely obsessed with the idea of a handgun being some sort of phallic symbol. It seems he's become fixated on the idea, and assumes eveyone else has the same fixation. I find it sadly amusing.
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Originally posted by Dago
Proper tool for the job. Not many SWAT snipers are seen hunkering down preparing to take out a bad guy with a revolver. Fact is, not many police or military carry revolvers anymore. Gee, I wonder why that is?
The truth is out there if you look.
dago
Uh hate to burst your bubble but here are a few bits of info for ya.
True, swat snipers do not use a handgun for sniping. They DO carry a handgun as part of their equipment. The rifle is a specialist piece for them, the main duty weapon they carry as a Police Officer is a handgun.
Second point. You will find that there are no Police Departments in the US that issue a rifle or a shot gun as a primary duty weapon for their Officers. They issue (or require the purchase of) a handgun.
Military Police Officers and Air Force Security personell are issued handguns. A baretta 9mm or for some, a S&W revolver for those with small hands.
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ya..bad thing about auto's..once ya get a 44 mag in one..you can hardly get your hand around it...i got big hands..but even i can hardly get around a desart eagle with one hand..its allmost big as a 2x4..lol..revolver are more powerfull and more accurate long range...all counts if you want more shots.or to be more accurate
my bud who works in a federal building showed me a bunch of video's..were cops with autos..get to scared or excited and miss with every shot spraying....of cource there taught to be cool and collective,.,.but if your not cool during a fire fight doesnt matter how many shots you got
i got a tiny auto i carry and revolvers too...both diffrent flavors..but when im wanting to go shooting at the range i take my revolvers...when im going into town..i take my little astra 22 short cub..lol<~~it can hardly hit anything 30 feet away..but its so small you cants see it when im packing it..good little gun:)
as for hunting..i was reading online were a guy using a black powder walker in montana<~~i think montana...to hunt deer..i guess he has nailed them at 75 yards with no troubles with 60 grains of powder
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if you want to really carry it,
Taurus ultralite titanium 38spec or 357 with low profile hammer, integral locking and lifetime warranty, add the belt hooking grip so you dont have to "holster up" just to go make a night time trip to the bank to make a deposit
14.4 oz loaded , no autoclip springs to worry about(they do break and fatigue),
use hollowpoint max loads.
its narrow and the grip is something that is actually comfortable for most instead of trying to shoot holding a cig lighter size straight auto grip like the keltec.
higher energy loads for their sze compared to auto, unless you like the fat as a shoe box grips the autos will have.
easy to clean
can play gunslinger with it when no ones watchng, autos just dont get you in the mood for that.(i know i own 3 sigs 9mm,40,45)
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dago... if you have owned the .45 for 30 years I would suggest that you get some ammo for it and shoot it a bit. go out to a large field or desert and go with a guy who has a revolver and just pick out rocks and such at varying distances from 20-150 yards and show the guy how inferior and outdated his revolver is.
You can get .357 revolvers in guns that will fit in the palm of your hand or in the front pocket of your levis that weigh 12-20 ounces... they will have 5 shots but if you watch a lot of movies and think you need more than that... you can get a few speedloaders...
There is no semi auto that will do what these revolvers will do as a CC gun.
There is no semi auto that will match the long range accuracy of a good revolver in a decent caliber (you know.. the ones semi autos ain't chambered for)
And... if you like to reload... you don't have to play pick up the brass.
I have a Kimber in 45 that I am very fond of for short range shooting and the nightstand. I have owned many other ,45's that were either very inaccurate or unreliable or both. I have never owned a revolver of any type that was not accurate.
lazs
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I've put the accuracy of my P220 up against revolvers in the past.
I'd do it again.
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really? I have no trouble with the accuracy of my Kimber eclipse custom but I have no isllusions when it comes to ranges much past 50 yards. With your 220 you can't even see the target at over 100 yards because you can't hold up any more front sight.
you are not being serious. I would put the accuracy of my Kimber against that of your 220 any day but any of my 44 magnum revolvers will shoot better at 50 yards and beyond... under 50.... there isn't enough difference to matter.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
really? I have no trouble with the accuracy of my Kimber eclipse custom but I have no isllusions when it comes to ranges much past 50 yards. With your 220 you can't even see the target at over 100 yards because you can't hold up any more front sight.
you are not being serious. I would put the accuracy of my Kimber against that of your 220 any day but any of my 44 magnum revolvers will shoot better at 50 yards and beyond... under 50.... there isn't enough difference to matter.
lazs
Are you kidding me? With the Sig Sauer stock combat sights I can consistently target 100 yds. Those are with stock sights.
We don't shoot anything less than 50 yds at the range.
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Ok martlet... I only shot two sigs in 45 in my life.. neither was that impressive to me... nice gun but I like the klimber better. colt type 45's don't have enough front sight... maybe you can hold enough with the sig... how bout 200 yards? 400?
for out plinking at unknown distances there is no way that you can compete with a good revolver in .357 44 or more powerful.. There is a good reason why all the really powerful new cartriges like 460 454 480 or even 500 are all revolver rounds.
You simply can't get a sig in 44 mag or better.
lazs
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Guys don't confuse the accuracy of the weapon with the inherrant accuracy of the projectile. Look at the .45, it's short stubby and has a very poor length to diameter ratio. In order to get a decent accuracy the projectile has to be better designed than that. Look at your top accuracy rounds and you will see that they have a much larger ratio of length to diameter. It is a funtion of the ballistic coefficient ratio that determines accuracy of the round.
Comparing a .45 to a .44 with a longer projectile is not terribly valid, the same for the 9mm vs a .357 with a heavy bullet.
Frankly the vast majority of handgun shooting is far less than 100 yards and this is in the acceptable accuracy range of the weapon and round.
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yep... balistic coeficient is hard to argue with. Long heavy bullets (heavy for the caliber ie 300 grain 44's) are known to be more accurate.
I have no problem with the short range accuracy and power of the .45 but.... if I could only have one handgun.... it would be a revolver in .357 or 44 mag... most likely the 44
My first choice would be a semi auto carbine or shotgun... next would be a revolver.
for carrying in the real world (not in your glove box) I would have to go with the 12 ounce shrouded hammer 340 pd with 5 125 grain hollow points in the chambers.
put that sig (or my Kimber) in your front pocket of your levis and carry it around all day. Not gonna happen.
For plinking with the guys at any range that might come up (far as you can see)... give me my 44 mag revolvers.
For reloading.... the 45 is easy but not quite as easy as the 44 mag and... I keep more of my brass with the 44.
for the nightstand... my Kimber has tritium sights and the 45 won't overpenetrate... 230 grain hydroshocks... with one in the chamber and the hammer down it is all but impossible for a child to fire before I can stop them. It is my choice for that duty.
in a pinch? my $150 makarov is plenty good for any use I may have and is ded reliable.
But... we are talking about best case scenarios here.
lazs
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my bud who works in a federal building showed me a bunch of video's..were cops with autos..get to scared or excited and miss with every shot spraying....of cource there taught to be cool and collective,.,.but if your not cool during a fire fight doesnt matter how many shots you got
It happens, but I wouldn't generally characterize police shootings this way. Cops really aren't "taught" to be cool and collected in shootings, either. Its semantics. Its about surprize and adrenalin. A lot of police combat shootings are the unexpected "OH ****" scenarios where the cop is doing well if he can draw, point, pull, pull, pull without getting hit. That is what a lot of repetitive training is focused on. When the smoke clears, often the cop will not remember hearing his weapon fire, will not be sure how many rounds were fired, and be incapable of judging the actual elapsed time of the incident. The more often a person practises drawing, pointing and shooting that gun in response to a threat, the more likely he is to quickly get rounds on the target. He/she may even survive. Rather than being trained to be "cool and collected" during a shooting incident, its more like they are trained to react to threats without even thinking about it, and their hands arms and body simply do what they have done so many times before. (hopefully)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok martlet... I only shot two sigs in 45 in my life.. neither was that impressive to me... nice gun but I like the klimber better. colt type 45's don't have enough front sight... maybe you can hold enough with the sig... how bout 200 yards? 400?
for out plinking at unknown distances there is no way that you can compete with a good revolver in .357 44 or more powerful.. There is a good reason why all the really powerful new cartriges like 460 454 480 or even 500 are all revolver rounds.
You simply can't get a sig in 44 mag or better.
lazs
Well, now you're just doing the "what if" game until you find something better.
Like I said, I can consistently target 100yds. I rarely shoot over that. Why the heck would I shoot 200? Why would have to? I guess nest time I'm out I'll try to sight 200 yds.
If you prefer your revolver, then shoot it. I usually prefer autos. I'd put my P220 up against any revolver of comparable caliber.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Guys don't confuse the accuracy of the weapon with the inherrant accuracy of the projectile. Look at the .45, it's short stubby and has a very poor length to diameter ratio. In order to get a decent accuracy the projectile has to be better designed than that. Look at your top accuracy rounds and you will see that they have a much larger ratio of length to diameter. It is a funtion of the ballistic coefficient ratio that determines accuracy of the round.
Comparing a .45 to a .44 with a longer projectile is not terribly valid, the same for the 9mm vs a .357 with a heavy bullet.
Frankly the vast majority of handgun shooting is far less than 100 yards and this is in the acceptable accuracy range of the weapon and round.
At 100 yds, with the only variable being the gun, I'm more accurate with my .45 than my 9mm. Drastically more accurate.
So, while the round may have quite a bit to do with it, the quality of the gun seems to hold more sway.
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martlet... I have no doubt that you are very good with the sig but... bolted to a ransom rest... it aint that great.... good.. but not as good as revolvers in .357 or 44 Most of these revolvers are capable of sub one inch goups at 25 yards. Most of us can't shoot 4" groups at that range standing up and blasting away.
I simply pointed out all the uses one might have for a handgun except maybe hunting (revolver wins that one) and told what most agree would be the best for each of those situations.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
martlet... I have no doubt that you are very good with the sig but... bolted to a ransom rest... it aint that great.... good.. but not as good as revolvers in .357 or 44 Most of these revolvers are capable of sub one inch goups at 25 yards. Most of us can't shoot 4" groups at that range standing up and blasting away.
I simply pointed out all the uses one might have for a handgun except maybe hunting (revolver wins that one) and told what most agree would be the best for each of those situations.
lazs
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I definately don't fall under that "most" category.
There are very few instances in which I'd prefer a revolver over an auto. CCW certainly isn't one of them.
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but you would admit that a 340 pd is lighter and more powerful than anything you can get in a self shucker? Would you be more likely to have the 340 on you 100% of the time or the sig?
lazs
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It weighs less than half what a P220 weighs. That's a big plus.
I don't know about "more powerful", though. What do you mean by that?
When choosing a CCW, the most important factor is comfort. If you are more comfortable with an auto, get that. If you feel better about a revolver, get that.
As far as what I'd rather carry 100% of the time, I'll choose the Sig. Most police officers feel the same way.
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Originally posted by Dago
Funny lazs, but since you are kinda old I will not get indignant with you.
I am neither a woman, small or italian.
My .45 is now 33 years old, and I bought it new. I have an idea how to handle it. I also own a Browning Buckmark Bullseye that is fun to shoot, accurate, and came in handy while I was shooting in a competitive league. I have also used it in bowling pin competitions and did quite well with it. Those are two of my handguns.
I own a few other weapons, but unlike some, I do it because I enjoy them, not because it fills some need in me to bolster my self-confidence nor because I need to build up my self-esteem. If that shoe fits you, feel free to wear it.
If you find you need to tell everyone about your weapons, it probably does fit. Seems you have posted many many times about your weapons.
As far as "short range" handguns, most handguns are of course "short range" weapons. A few exceptions might be cited, such as the Thompson Contender, but the majority of shooters have the sense to realize that a rifle is a superior long range weapon.
Proper tool for the job. Not many SWAT snipers are seen hunkering down preparing to take out a bad guy with a revolver. Fact is, not many police or military carry revolvers anymore. Gee, I wonder why that is?
The truth is out there if you look.
dago
My buddy of 18 years is SWAT at a Metro-Detroit Police Depratment. They just turned in 70's era M-16's for M4's.
Um, they carry a sidearm. In fact, they are REQUIRED to carry a sidearm. You know in "SWAT", they're specializing in Sniping, Barricaded Gunmen, etc. But Dago, your comment highlighted above is one of someone who is now backpeddling.
If you were to take a survey of every cop in the US. I GUARANTEE you for either Off-Duty or Back-up carry, a snub nosed .357 or .38 will be around 50%. Why? because both rounds are effective and for the reliability factor.
Karaya
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I don't know about "more powerful", though. What do you mean by that?
biggest rounds are in a revolver hands down..try and find one auto that fires a 500 s&W or a 45/70 round...only problem with a auto..the size of the grip is your clip,,so your restricted to the size of your bullets and power behind them...revolvers dont have this proublem..because the cilinder can be made to support just about any round you wanna put in it with out changing the size of the hand grip..and i hear the 45/70 and s&w kick butt at 100 yards in the magnum reseach bfg..talk about knock down power..lol
i carry a auto mostly..but when im out target shooting..i take my revolvers..only auto i take to the range is my long barrel luger erfurt
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If you were to take a survey of every cop in the US. I GUARANTEE you for either Off-Duty or Back-up carry, a snub nosed .357 or .38 will be around 50%. Why? because both rounds are effective and for the reliability factor.
they use those cheap little autoloaders for throw-downs :D
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the 340 pd is not only half the weight of a sig but it is much much smaller and... the 125 hp is a better stopper... you can also fire the 340 from your pocket.... several times. It just makes more sense as an everyday carry gun unless you are planning on an all out war with a dozen cricket paddle weilders.
winter with heavy clothes... you might as well take the sig but... I would just as soon carry my chopped down and despured ruger redhawk in 44 mag.
Nothing wrong with the auto except maybe the possibility of a jam or not knowing if the safety is on or not (on those with external safety)or accidentaly releasing the mag while carrying...
5 or six shots is plenty... if I didn't think so I would carry some jet loader speedloaders or have the cyl. converted to take full moon clips.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunthr
they use those cheap little autoloaders for throw-downs :D
hehe.
Karaya
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Originally posted by hyena426
biggest rounds are in a revolver hands down..try and find one auto that fires a 500 s&W or a 45/70 round...only problem with a auto..the size of the grip is your clip,,so your restricted to the size of your bullets and power behind them...revolvers dont have this proublem..because the cilinder can be made to support just about any round you wanna put in it with out changing the size of the hand grip..and i hear the 45/70 and s&w kick butt at 100 yards in the magnum reseach bfg..talk about knock down power..lol
i carry a auto mostly..but when im out target shooting..i take my revolvers..only auto i take to the range is my long barrel luger erfurt
Yeah, I love the 500, I just wish it were a bit smaller so I could carry it all the the time. My Glock 20 is nice, especially now that I gave it handle job. It fits alot more comfortably now. Thank goodness for bedliner!
There are people out there that machine rifle round pepperbox revolvers. I,ve seen a 22-250 4 shot (very nice). They are a bit heavy and there is a cup over the back end of the cylinder to keep flames from flying out or something. I wonder about the legality of those as a carry weapon.
One thing that I used to carry is an old military issue flare gun. It is the pen type with a spring loaded striker. I think those are legal just about everywhere.