Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Peer on September 14, 2001, 02:55:00 AM
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German TV reports that an Iranian imprisoned here in Germany had tried to inform the CIA that such an attack would happen weeks ago.
But the CIA had classified this information as too fantastic and too incredible, so they didnt react. :(
I am so angry that these bastards could fullfill their attack against the civilized world under the eyes of the inetelligence services...
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information sutch a this is difficult lottery
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I agree with the statement that came from a member of Congress. Now is not the time to assign blame to the U.S. intelligence community.
We are vulnerable. We are because we choose to be. It is the price of freedom.
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Years ago, President Ford passed a law prohibiting the CIA from doing assassinations and working with the criminal element to protect national security. This may have been right for the time, but we suddenly live in a new world.
The emphasis has been on spy technology such as sattelite photography and high flying spy planes. The CIA got away from placing long-term deep cover agents in the streets where, the enemy lives, where infiltration, recruitment and assassination can take place. It looks like we have to regress in order to be able to protect innocent people...
:(
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Originally posted by Gunthr:
Years ago, President Ford passed a law prohibiting the CIA from doing assassinations and working with the criminal element to protect national security. This may have been right for the time, but we suddenly live in a new world.
The emphasis has been on spy technology such as sattelite photography and high flying spy planes. The CIA got away from placing long-term deep cover agents in the streets where, the enemy lives, where infiltration, recruitment and assassination can take place. It looks like we have to regress in order to be able to protect innocent people...
:(
Yes, Gunthr. I now hear many saying it is time to repeal the anti assassination law.
As Sandman said, it's not the time to place blame or else we could discuss what has happened to U.S. intelligence organiziations over the past 8 years. But hell, he did reduce the government right??
:mad:
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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As Sandman said, it's not the time to place blame or else we could discuss what has happened to U.S. intelligence organiziations over the past 8 years. But hell, he did reduce the government right??
Eagler
While it may be inconvienent for you Clinton hatred, the reliance on sattelites and other hardware intelligence goes back WAY past eight years Eagler. Good old Ronny R may be more to blame. We wouldn't be talking human intelligence now if this attack didn't demonstrate how necessiary it was. After all, our threat is from terrorist nations like N. Korea that are going to launch a ballistic missile that needs a very costly missile defense system to defeat right?
I squeak about corporate welfare all the time and this is why. "Human" systems, be they intelligence or training at NTC/Red Flag/Top Gun etc., don't contribute to campaigns and tend to take the back seat where budgets are concerned.
Charon
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This returned the politics to ground level. Nuclear missile attack is the fantasy scenario and this kind of attacks are reality.
You can be sure, that they try with any means turn everybodys heads away from their mistakes. You have incredibly massive intel agencies, but they failed. All the billions of dollars pumped in to them didnt bring you results.
Thousands are dead and i still believe, that terrorists can do this again if they want, any day. But sure, CIA and FBI will tell you reasons why this isnt their fault simply, because they want the annual 30 billion dollars in future.
Imagine if those 30 billion dollars were given to aid arabian families or things like that? I bet you wouldnt have to care terrorist attacks again. But its more fun to have fancy James Bond agents in blacks armed with fancy guns than try to resolve the very root of the problem.
I am foreigner so what do i know?
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Originally posted by Tuomio:
This returned the politics to ground level. Nuclear missile attack is the fantasy scenario and this kind of attacks are reality.
You can be sure, that they try with any means turn everybodys heads away from their mistakes. You have incredibly massive intel agencies, but they failed. All the billions of dollars pumped in to them didnt bring you results.
Thousands are dead and i still believe, that terrorists can do this again if they want, any day. But sure, CIA and FBI will tell you reasons why this isnt their fault simply, because they want the annual 30 billion dollars in future.
Imagine if those 30 billion dollars were given to aid arabian families or things like that? I bet you wouldnt have to care terrorist attacks again. But its more fun to have fancy James Bond agents in blacks armed with fancy guns than try to resolve the very root of the problem.
I am foreigner so what do i know?
We send billions of dollars in aid each year. Where did it get us? Maybe if we put each one in a 4000 sq ft house, swimming pool, 2 cars with 2.5 kids, (way better than the average US citizen has) they'll love us eh? Our materialism is one of the things they hate about us...
The reduction of the CIA over the last 8 years will be brought to light in due time. Now is not the time..
The missile defense is a defense of the future. As soon as nukes become, I hate to think it, commonplace, this defense will be as needed as a metal detector at an airport.. Depending on our military reponse of this attack, you may be wishing it was in place today..
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Eagler: I just cant help myself thinking, that this kind of actions are almost impossible to prevent with brutal force. When somebody wants to hijack a plane and crash it to scyscraper and he wants it BADLY with no fear whatsoever, he will do it. And he will most likely succeed, agents can only make the path longer, but theres always a way.
Politics should now really discuss, why these terrorist acts are happening. "Becouse we are free country" is BS statement, nobody will want to kill 10 000 civilians just because you have fairly good personal freedoms. This isnt religious difference either, Osama Bin Laden is businessman, religion is just the tool of controlling his followers. I would want to hear the real reasons behind this.
Im not offending or insulting anyone here. Im just pointing out, that this is like turn based "game", this was Osamas move, now its yours. You want to bomb the toejam out of them? Well, i bet when its their turn again, 1000:s of civilians will die. Remember, theyre already living in stone age, they have nothing to lose, but they have simple and powerfull tools of countering your acts. Ironically, as long as youre democratic country, you are fat target, same goes for all including my country. They could do same damage to Finland any day, with 4 planes you can kill easily 5000 people. It makes me wonder, why there hasnt been a single terrorist act in Finnish history?
Violence creates violence, usually exponentially.
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Originally posted by Tuomio:
It makes me wonder, why there hasnt been a single terrorist act in Finnish history?
Violence creates violence, usually exponentially.
Wrong.
Eugen Schauman shot Nikolai Bobrikoff 16.June 1904.
Well Finland wasn't independent in those days...
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Tuomio, now is not the time to suggest, ask, or even care why this was done. Should we instead of retaliation, rethink our foriegn policy as a result of being bombed?
Next time they disagree with our direction they merely need to blow up 5000 more? You guys need to back off here, people in the US are getting more pissed off, not less. Believe me, we would love for Finland to take over our aid and UN responsibilities, so that we could immediately back out.
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Also, violence begets violence is nothing more than a fancy saying.
Sometimes violence begets violence, other times violence begets peace. One thing for sure, attacking us does beget violence.
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If you decide to bomb Afghanistan, you can be damn sure whats the reason for next terrorist attack.
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Originally posted by Tuomio:
If you decide to bomb Afghanistan, you can be damn sure whats the reason for next terrorist attack.
You're lack of understanding about why we are actively searching out as many terrorists associated with Tuesday's attack is glaringly obvious.
We are not just going to bomb and shoot randomly, we are going after the problem to do our damndest to eliminate this threat for future generations.
If we don't stop them now, do you honestly want to find out what their next attack will be like?
They won't stop just because we ignore them, they will continue to attack and the attacks will grow exponentially in terms of how deadly they are.
This time, they gave us the reason we needed to actively search and destroy these 'people'.
-SW
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Thank you for the pop pyschology sermon. If Finland refuses to support us we will understand and carry on.
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I am not a vilent person and fear escallation if America retaliates.
BUT....
A clear message must be sent to all terrorists. And it must have a great big bellybutton exclamation point at the end of that messge!
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Tuomio,
The US didn't insigate this attack.
This was unprovoked.
There are BILLIONS going to the middle East because of oil. The amount of money is staggering. WTF are the leaders of those countries doing with it. I think it's THEIR responsiblity to eliminate poverty in THEIR country, not ours. The certainly have the ability, just not the will or concern.
As to why Finland hasn't been attacked. Perhaps you have to do something in order to be noticed. A stand has to be taken and a choice made to be in the front lines, not hanging back waiting for someone else to do it all. It's easy to not be a world player and do nothing.
Thinking that the difference in money is the root of these problems is overly simplistic. bin ladin is NOT a poor individual. He is a multi milloinare if not a billionare. Why is he not using his wealth to lessen poverty in his area of the world instead of preaching hate, religoious bigotry and plotting murder in the name of God?
It's real easy to blame money and the US for everything isn't it tuomo? :rolleyes:
Mav
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All,
Satelite imagery and airborne survielance were not the answer and cannot be the answer. This was a GROUND BASED infiltration into a large population center.
By definition a free society is a vulnerable one. Our people are able to travel for hundreds of miles in almost any direction without the need for identity papers or passports. They are free to live their lives, choose their livelyhood and worship how they please. They need NO permission to publish or speak. They can change careers, domiciles and vacation when / where they want.
In these circumstance without the need to continually prove your identity or the "need to be where you are" we will be vulnerable. It is a price of freedom. You can have a certain meansure of security or freedom. You cannot have both.
Until terrorism is blotted out or their acts made so expensive to the terrorists and their sponsors we will continue to be victims. How long this goes on is a matter of national will and choice.
Mav
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Originally posted by Maverick:
There are BILLIONS going to the middle East because of oil. The amount of money is staggering. WTF are the leaders of those countries doing with it. I think it's THEIR responsiblity to eliminate poverty in THEIR country, not ours.
Mav
Remember Shah ? How about the wonderful little Royal Families in Arab counties that we back up while preaching freedom/democracy to everyone else ?
US has a bad habit of betting on a wrong horse when it comes to rules in Asia. And it backfires sometimes...
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About the Shah:
My girlfriend is from Iran. Her father, who was a highranking officer of the Imperial Iranian Army was killed during the revolution and she had to leave Iran and came to Germany.
If President Carter hasnīt allowed that the Shah of Iran - who was an extremely loyal ally of the USA - could be overthrown, we would have a stabilizing factor, like Turkey, in the region.
But the CIA considered Khomeini as a "second Ghandi, who shouldnt be stopped".
Today we see the consequences of this stupid classification.
On the other hand: Because of this development I met the most beautiful and intelligent woman of the world ;)
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fd ski
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. If we had it in future sight the world would be abetter place. BTW there are still billions of $ flowing in that direction and those people are still in poverty. I ask again, is that the fault of the US, those passengers on the planes, the people in the towers or the rescuers who died trying to help, or is it the problem of the country training terrorists?
I already posted in another thread about how alowing one person or small group to control the worlds economy would lead to a world dictatorship. That argumaent still stands.
Now to avoid power being centralized in a manner to negatively control the other nations of the world, what are you going to do? Please help the world and show how it should be done. I'm sure you could do it perfectly. :rolleyes:
Mav