Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on June 28, 2005, 02:26:16 PM
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I'm not a catholic so forgive if I offend, but I've been watching the news and CNN is going on and on about the pope waving the waiting period to consider JP2 a saint.
My impression is that sainthood is pretty much the catholic "hall of fame".
Or is there more to it?
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As part of the 'hood, he has to kill one other pope off before becoming accepted to the hood.
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My apologies if this post offended anyone. I was trying to make a joke, but apparently the phrase is sensitive to some and I was/am ignorant as to why.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
beep-beep
Skuzzy is in the hizzouse... LOL.
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You're cussing at me aren't you?
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
You're cussing at me aren't you?
Nah kinfolk, he jus' givin' respec.
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Yes it's a hall of fame but also you can invoke a Saint by praying to him or her so that they intercede on your behalf and give you what you want. Like a celestial politician. Some of them have specialisations like the the patron saint of travellers or animals or alpine troops :confused:
Useful list of saints (http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php)
So you pick your cause or whatever put in a few prayers with the relevant representative Saint and he has a word with the big man and before you know it, you've got what you want. Easy.
;)
I'm not actually joking that is exactly how it works.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Yes it's a hall of fame but also you can invoke a Saint by praying to him or her so that they intercede on your behalf and give you what you want. Like a celestial politician. Some of them have specialisations like the the patron saint of travellers or animals or alpine troops :confused:
So you pick your cause or whatever put in a few prayers with the relevant representative Saint and he has a word with the big man and before you know it, you've got what you want. Easy.
;)
I'm not actually joking that is exactly how it works.
The intresting part about this to me is that this is never mentioned in the bible and at no time was anyone instructed to pray to the dead for any reason.
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See Rule #6
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Sandy,
If you really wanted to know I'm sure you know how to find a Catholic Church and ask a priest. Glad so many get such a rise out of their religous intollerance. sad.
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What is sainthood?
It's generally pretty good, but sometimes you begin to question the motives of people hanging around. Are they really your friends or are they hanging around just to get healed and stuff.
I mean, all they do is take, take, take. It's all part of the job and you must give, and it's mostly pretty cool, but there are the down days just like anything else.
I'd say sainthood is, on balance, above average.
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If I hear one more millionaire Saint complaining about the paparazzi and the inability to do their own shopping I'm gonna hurl. You're a Saint - you're fair game.
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Millionaire saint?
One of the down points is that the vocation doesn't pay that well. While abject poverty is not necesarily an absolute requirement, there is the humility schtick that goes with the job description. Being of humble means is fairly important.
At the conventions only two or three of us ever flash any wealth.
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Okay..... but I bet ya get laid a lot.
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What do you think I use for my "Healing Wand"?
Laying on of hands is only foreplay.
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mmmmphhht. :D
Uhm....
FIRE!
Make a break for it Holden - you go left, I'll go right. They'll only get one of us. Godspeed!
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Hard to see giving a serious answer in the midst of the current to and fro, but here goes nothing.
In the Bible "a Saint" (Hebrew: Qaddish, Greek: Hagios) was a generic term used to describe God's people. It meant literally, holy, sacred, or "set apart," called out of the world by God for his service. Thus all believers in both testaments are frequently called "saints." It is not uncommon, for instance, for Paul to an address an entire church as "saints" i.e. "believers" as in Eph. 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Paul's assurance however came from the fact that when one truly believed, one was saved and had a sure and unshakable assurance of heaven. As in Romans 10:8-11
"But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
Salvation therefore was conceived of as by faith and not as a result of works. When a "saint" dies, he or she enters directly enters into heaven because they have been Saved by the completed work of Jesus Christ and they have been united to Him through faith.
Unfortunately, the biblical conception of salvation gradually altered in the Roman church, and the biblical doctrine that there are only two places where the souls of the departed go: Heaven and Hell was expanded to four possibilities: heaven, hell, purgatory, or limbo (and the the limbus patrum). This gradually became part of the formal theology of the Roman Catholic church and was most finely tuned during the time of the scholastic theologians in the late middle ages. Also the church's teaching on salvation began to be heavily influenced by pelagianism so that ones own meritorious works began to be viewed as necessary in order to enter heaven. Believers had to be really holy (perfectly sanctified) before they could enter heaven. Heaven became a place that was merited by believers through a combination of one's own good works, Christ's work, and the merits of the saints.
The majority of believers, it was thought, would still have the stain of their former sins adhering to them, and they would need to be purged and temporally punished for their sins before they were really holy enough to enter heaven. This is thought to take place in purgatory, a place of purging fire that lasted for thousands of yearts.
Some believers, however, evidenced a greater than normal sanctification or holiness in this life, that indicated that their good works far outweighed their sins, in fact many believers were thought to be so holy that their merits were added to what became known as the "storehouse (or treasury) of merit" and that this storehouse could be dipped into by the church on earth via prayer.
Those exemplary believers who died "in a state of grace" and evidenced a high degree of holiness, faith, and good works were thought to have merited immediate entry into heaven instead of having to go through a time of temporal punishment in purgatory. These were formally judged to be "Saints" by the Roman Catholic church and declared to be such in a process known as beatification. This is the process that declared Mother Theresa to be a saint and which is about to begin for Pope John Paul II.
The criteria today in order to be formally declared to be a "Saint" by the Vatican includes a thorough investigation into the life and work of the individual, that after their death they were associated with miracles, and finally papal approval. Once this process is completed, the title Saint is formally added to their name.
The Protestant Reformers rejected Roman Catholic soteriology, returning to the idea that there are only two destinations for the departed, and thus Protestants hold that all who have been saved through Faith Alone in Jesus Christ are rightly termed small S saints.
- SEAGOON
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My dad re-married after he and my mom divorced when I was 9. His new wife is catholic. She had kids of her own, plus gave me another sister and brother as well years later. It all turned out as good as that situation could ever turn out for us.
I always had a problem with the catholic bit though. My dad converted to it to marry her. The one thing that always bugged me was the government style it has. That and the importance Mary has, as well as the saints. Being raised Baptist, the only important one I knew of was Jesus.
To have men select another man..and make him a saint according to their laws and rules, seems to me..well I dont know the word to use. But I compare it to a pack of dogs..selecting one of their own to be the most man-like of the pack..and holding him in reverence next to their man-master.
I just cant see God walking up to the pope in heaven saying.."Good news...your fellows down their on earth made you a saint today. Guess I owe you a key to the private lavatory and your green jacket. Follow me."
Sometimes I think man thinks too much of himself. Im not saying this to offend. Im sure many people feel Baptists are odd in some of the things we do. I guess its all in what you are raised in.
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My mother was a Saint.
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I never saw her at any of the meetings....
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Originally posted by FiLtH
To have men select another man..and make him a saint according to their laws and rules, seems to me..well I dont know the word to use.
I believe the word would be "arrogant" or "foolish"
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If it works in Cooperstown, why not the Vatican?
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Originally posted by FiLtH
I just cant see God walking up to the pope in heaven saying.."Good news...your fellows down their on earth made you a saint today. Guess I owe you a key to the private lavatory and your green jacket. Follow me."
as a christian I think you nailed it on the head with that statement. Very candid :aok
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Yes it's a hall of fame but also you can invoke a Saint by praying to him or her so that they intercede on your behalf and give you what you want. Like a celestial politician. Some of them have specialisations like the the patron saint of travellers or animals or alpine troops :confused:
Useful list of saints (http://www.catholic.org/saints/patron.php)
So you pick your cause or whatever put in a few prayers with the relevant representative Saint and he has a word with the big man and before you know it, you've got what you want. Easy.
;)
I'm not actually joking that is exactly how it works.
No wonder why the catholic church is always making like they are hard up for money.
Look at all the middle men lol
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I never saw her at any of the meetings....
Sure ya did. Kinda hard to miss her.. she wuz the one on the debate team that used ear flicks to punctuate the points of interest.
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Ask a Mormon what a Saint is and he'll say "I am."
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
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Unfortunately, the biblical conception of salvation gradually altered in the Roman church, and the biblical doctrine that there are only two places where the souls of the departed go: Heaven and Hell was expanded to four possibilities: heaven, hell, purgatory, or limbo (and the the limbus patrum). This gradually became part of the formal theology of the Roman Catholic church and was most finely tuned during the time of the scholastic theologians in the late middle ages. Also the church's teaching on salvation began to be heavily influenced by pelagianism so that ones own meritorious works began to be viewed as necessary in order to enter heaven. Believers had to be really holy (perfectly sanctified) before they could enter heaven. Heaven became a place that was merited by believers through a combination of one's own good works, Christ's work, and the merits of the saints.
hehehe... well, the catholic response would be:
"the biblical conception remained the same"
Also, Pelagianism is viewed as a heresy by Catholics, and was so viewed in the Middle Ages. Just 'cos an Augustinian Hermit slept through his Theology classes in Erfurt doesn't make it any different. One of the major rules of Scholastic Theology is that God's omnipotence means He can do anything that doesn't involve a contradiction. So, logically, God has (or had, depending on your temporal notion of God) the power to damn Peter and save Judas.
And you go to those same scholastic theologians and look for what they say about the sale of indulgences and all that crap, and they say damn little. That's the kinda stuff that greedy churchmen engage in, not what becomes a central part of belief.
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Dinger,
Indulgences are still a central part of the belief of the Roman Catholic Church, meriting its own section in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1997) they are directly related to remission of temporal punishment in purgatory:
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X. Indulgences
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man".85
In the Communion of Saints
1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to 946-959 become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."86
1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88
1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."89
Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church
1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.90
1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
Notes
81 Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1.
82 Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; cf. Norm 3.
83 CIC, can. 994.
84 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.
85 Eph 4:22, 24.
86 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
87 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
88 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
89 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
90 Cf. Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
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I would be interested to see a solid biblical argument for any of the above doctrines.
- SEAGOON
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I just cant see God walking up to the pope in heaven saying.."Good news...your fellows down their on earth made you a saint today. Guess I owe you a key to the private lavatory and your green jacket. Follow me."
That made me :rofl
Thanks Filth, I needed a good laugh today my friend :)
*edit* whoops!! spelling error!
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Seagoon, you astound me with your broad knowledge base of not only the Bible but the various sects (if you will) of Christianity. I can only hope to have a small fraction of the knowledge you possess someday.