Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunthr on June 29, 2005, 10:51:01 AM
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Do you think we should allow people to burn the US Flag? Do you think the issue is too trivial to criminalize this act with an amendment to the Constitution?
I kind of think that we should allow people to burn the flag, but I'm not totally comfortable with this. I would like to hear some arguments...
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I think we should allow it as a vital expression of the 1st amendment. The flag is a symbol, an emotional one for sure (as is the case with most flags) but it stands for a country that is great because of the rights that are set forth in the Constitution. The same constitution you swear to uphold in your enlistment oath (notice the absence of the flag):
I, (name), do solemly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed overme, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Personally, I don't think there has been a valid flag burning issue in my lifetime, and I hope there never is one. While some events have been disagreeable to portions of the population, they have typically not strayed outside of the bounds of legal government. At most flying the flag upside down or burning an effigy of a political opponent would be appropriate, IMO. But, there are idiots everywhere, and once or twice a year some idiot who probably couldn't argue his or her point past a few poorly understood slogans, decides to "make a statement." Usually in order to get laid, IMO. But, the right to this form of expression stands as a symbol to the world that the day a true patriot might be willing burn a flag in protest is still a long way off. I wonder if any of our founding fathers burned an English flag back in the day.
However, since it pisses us off (myself included), we once again contemplate trashing a fundamental right of expression, something that sets America apart from so many countries in the world. All because of a few idiots who would be better off ignored.
Charon
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Fine, they can use their "freedom of speach" to burn a flag. I'm going to use mine to "Physically defend" the flag.
I'll go in swinging and get the flag out.
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See rule # 4
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This is not a simple subject! I will try to be brief with this so I can come back with more later.There are two sides of this to look at.
The first side is: The flag is the symbol of the nation and should be honored as such. Disrepect to the flag is disrepect and a slap in the face to all the people in the nation.
Second: In a nation who values personal freedoms such as the freedom of speech and the right to dramatize their displeasure in a public forum can and should have the right to burn or display the flag in any way they feel.
While I am 100% against burning our flag, I am also 100% for our rights.
What we need is a standard set of rules governing the way and manner the flag should be displayed or used in demonstration. The military has these rules, but for some reason they do not extend to the civilian population.
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Yes, you should be allowed to burn the flag, provided you're following other laws regulating burning things. We should also be allowed to burn the paychecks of the members of Congress for wasting time on such pointless garbage.
Whenever I see someone burn the flag, whatever it is they're protesting for immediately takes a credibility hit in my eyes, and it's the same for most of the people I know. So, if that's something you wanna do, go for it.
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You are allowed to burn the flag here, if you separate the colours and burn them individualy.
I had to do it twice when i was in the navy. once because it was old and worn and was to be disgarded, and the second time because I dropped it on the ground.
Civilians doesnt make that much fuss over it if they drop it, but some old people that remeber the war do.
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Whenever I see someone burn the flag, whatever it is they're protesting for immediately takes a credibility hit in my eyes, and it's the same for most of the people I know. So, if that's something you wanna do, go for it.
Good point SOB. Most of the time though, you stick a microphone in front of one of them and they generate the same result :)
"All war is bad!" "Really, all wars?" "All war is Bad!" Yeah, unless some foreign thugs are about to kick in the door, kill you and your parents and gang rape your sister. Then, I guess, fighting that defensive, just war ain't so bad...
Charon
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Be very care on what you burn - the EPA will get on you and make you pay!
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You know, if you think about it - We play a sim which is set in the 1930 - 1940's. What do you think would have happened to anyone burning a flag then? The thought would not have even crossed their minds to do such a thing, but if it did.....
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Sirhan Sirhan assassinated Robert Kennedy in a physical display of political expression (burning is a physical event), why it was not protected under the 1st amendment is anybodys guess.
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Sirhan Sirhan assassinated Robert Kennedy in a physical display of political expression (burning is a physical event), why it was not protected under the 1st amendment is anybodys guess.
My guess would be the fact that he committed murder. But you're right. The two are so similar it is confusing.
Charon
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So how would they handle it if they burnt a flag while it was draped over someone? Murder or 1st amendment right?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Sirhan Sirhan assassinated Robert Kennedy in a physical display of political expression (burning is a physical event), why it was not protected under the 1st amendment is anybodys guess.
This just in... Murder is a crime.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Do you think we should allow people to burn the US Flag? Do you think the issue is too trivial to criminalize this act with an amendment to the Constitution?
I kind of think that we should allow people to burn the flag, but I'm not totally comfortable with this. I would like to hear some arguments...
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I think one should be able to express their freedom of speech, even if it means burning a flag. However, if they decide to try to express their 1st amendment on my property, I will excercise my 2nd amendment on them.
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Sandman, you are right, it is murder. But did you know there are people out there who want it NOT to be a crime if it is in the lines of civil disobedience?
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Those people are wrong.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Fine, they can use their "freedom of speach" to burn a flag. I'm going to use mine to "Physically defend" the flag.
I'll go in swinging and get the flag out.
That makes for kind of a funny image.
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There is no such thing as a freedom that explicitly denies others of freedoms. In some countries, a 'freedom' which does that could be called slavery, tyranny, or a host of other names.
This action to prevent the burning of the flag, or make it unlawful, puts our political leaders ignorance in the spotlight. The flag code is explicit about the handling of our flag when it is worn as to be undignified to fly any longer.
The flag is to be burned. In the military there is a specific drill associated with this. It honors the flag and what it stands for.
Burning the flag is tantamount to saying, "I no longer want to be in this country. I hate it.". Do not attempt to give me rationalizations which would indicate any other meaning. Read and understand the flag code. Then come talk to me about it.
Our flag has a life of its own. It is to be revered, as any other life is.
That is my opinion.
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Now, now sandman. Don't get testy. The 1st amendment gives them the right to their opinion, no matter how asinine it is. Look at congress!
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Originally posted by Gato
Now, now sandman. Don't get testy. The 1st amendment gives them the right to their opinion, no matter how asinine it is. Look at congress!
Oh... they're free to have their wrong opinion. But as Skuzzy points out, their freedom of expression does not trump someone else's right to live.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Do you think we should allow people to burn the US Flag? Do you think the issue is too trivial to criminalize this act with an amendment to the Constitution?
I kind of think that we should allow people to burn the flag, but I'm not totally comfortable with this. I would like to hear some arguments...
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My opinion (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18657) is unchanged.
I'd expand on it though. I also dislike the Pledge of Allegience simply because it's ritualized and coerced. Most people just say the words, but they don't mean it. They've said them too often. By comparison, I was shaking in my shoes while I took the Oath of Enlistment (both times). That was a meaningful pledge. (Sorry, I'm off topic).
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Skuzzy, I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean that we should criminalize burning the flag in protest of the government?
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I did not say we should criminalize it, although I would not oppose it. And the flag is not the representative of our government. The flag is repsentative of our nation. Our nation is not the government. Our nation is the people.
Well, it used to be, should be, and was meant to be.
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I'm leaning toward allowing people to burn the flag myself Sandman, although I have nothing but contempt for those who would do that.
Your arguments and observations in your post way back in 2001 before 911 made a lot of sense. I think it could be a slippery slope, where next thing you know, you could be arrested for spitting on the steps of a capital building or somesuch. And I'm concerned about trifleling with the Constitution.
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I did not say we should criminalize it, although I would not oppose it. And the flag is not the representative of our government. The flag is repsentative of our nation. Our nation is not the government. Our nation is the people.
Well, it used to be, should be, and was meant to be.- Skuzzy
I understand now. Thanks.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
And I'm concerned about trifleling with the Constitution.
I have just the organization (http://aclu.org/) for you. ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I think one should be able to express their freedom of speech, even if it means burning a flag. However, if they decide to try to express their 1st amendment on my property, I will excercise my 2nd amendment on them.
:aok
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Originally posted by Sandman
My opinion (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18657) is unchanged.
I'd expand on it though. I also dislike the Pledge of Allegience simply because it's ritualized and coerced. Most people just say the words, but they don't mean it. They've said them too often. By comparison, I was shaking in my shoes while I took the Oath of Enlistment (both times). That was a meaningful pledge. (Sorry, I'm off topic).
You are off and on, both. You swore and oath and that oath was before the flag of our nation. Not only were you bound by the words you spoke, but by the symbol you swore them in front of.
This is a subject which could easily spread over several threads. It deals with pride in the nation, personal freedoms and personal beliefs. Plus much, much more. Over the eons men and women have died for a flag. Were they wrong to instill so much love for a piece of cloth? Is it just a piece of cloth they died for?
When we fight and die, it is not only for our own pride, but the nation we love. The flag is that symbol. To let someone degrade the symbol is to devalue the lives given to protect it.
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Originally posted by Gato
Over the eons men and women have died for a flag.
I never swore an oath to protect a piece of cloth. Not ever. The veterans did not die for something so cheap as fabric. They did it for a piece of paper (http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html) not for a symbol. ;)
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Quite right Sandman. The flag is a symbol of our nation but that piece of paper defines our nation.
Too bad it is getting mauled by the very people who are supposed to uphold it (i.e. our representatives and leaders).
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I'm opposed to someone burning the flag for anything other than disposal.
However, I am also opposed to creating an amendment barring it.
I do not appreciate it but I do not support restricting rights.
-SW
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I must be ill, I agree with skuzzy on this issue
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I have just the organization for you. (ACLU) - Sandman
Well, this has been a year of firsts for me. I sympathised with a gay man who was a witness in a civil trial who was forced to testify against his 15 year, long term live-in "significant other" as to what he told him in private (this is protected speech between hetero spouses), and now I'm leaning towards not amending the constitution to criminilize burning the flag. I feel awful about it, too. But support the ACLU? No.
They tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater in my opinion... but still, I think we'd miss them if they were gone. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
I never swore an oath to protect a piece of cloth. Not ever. The veterans did not die for something so cheap as fabric. They did it for a piece of paper (http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html) not for a symbol. ;)
No, not the cloth, you misunderstood me. The flag is only the symbol of our nation. You swore the oath in front of the flag, so you swore it in front of the people of this country.
I too swore that very same oath! To protect the constitution of the United States... To swear that oath in front of the whole nation...
When I said they died over the eons for the flag, it was really the country they died for. It is all about the symbolism.
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My opinion:
The flag is a symbol that represents ideas. Those ideas are held to be valuable by most Americans. Superman pretty much embodies those ideals, and they're deeply embedded in our culture. You'll see people willing to die to defend those ideas.
What you don't often see however, is a burning desire among Americans to KILL for those ideals, and that's the difference between the average American idealist and certain idealistic groups in other parts of the world. See, some cultures not only feel that their ideas are valuable, they feel the need to destroy everything that goes against their ideals. You pretty much have to force that sort of thing down our throats before we board the boats and planes and head off on a crusade. We even had to be forced into WWII by our leaders and an actual attack on our land, because the majority of Americans frankly couldn't care less about what other people do.
What really bothers me is when people take a symbol and idea, and go around forcing it down other people's throats with violence and coercion, regardless of what symbol it is and what ideas it represents.
I've sworn an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, and that means I'll die to defend the IDEAS that the US is based upon. I do not owe anything to the SYMBOLS chosen to represent those ideas, and my loyalty to the PEOPLE is transitory and based on the job title and position, not the person themselves. I defend the constitution, and the person who directs my actions is the President, whoever that may be.
When someone burns the flag, they're destroying a symbol. They may even be trying to make the statement that they disagree with the ideas that the symbol represents. But are they attacking the ideas themselves in a manner that needs my intervention in order to somehow save those ideas outlined in the constitution? I do not think so. Making political or religious statements, as long as they do not cause harm to people or cause damage to our nation, is specifically protected in the US constitution. So unless that burning flag is draped around someone or is used in an otherwise illegal fashion such as destroying property, or if the flag isn't yours to burn, then go ahead and burn the flag.
I reserve my own right to make judgements about the people burning flags and act on those judgements in a legal fashion, but acting like a retard or extroverted ignoramus isn't going to earn any response from me other than scorn or maybe pity. There will always be people who feel the need to protest one thing or another, and they typically have short attention spans. They'll get tired of burning flags when it's not a hot issue any more, and then they'll turn their attention to something else equally retarded. If it makes them feel better, and their actions do not harm anyone or break any laws, then they're free to fully express the full glorious boundaries and limitations of their intellect.
It would mildly upset me if the supreme court upheld any law banning the burning of the flag, because it would set a firm legal precedent that laws may be made to forbid the expression of a challenge to an IDEA or SYMBOL, and in the United States of America, that concept is supposed to be protected.
The ability of the TSA airport screeners to slap large fines and detain passengers who voice ANYTHING critical of the security process without any sort of due process, following a set of laws and regulations which cannot be spoken or released due to "security" concerns, is a much greater threat to American freedoms than any terrorist attack, let alone someone who decides it's time to burn a flag on tv to get some attention. Where are the vocal protests outside airports challenging this greater threat? They're too scared to do it because they know they'll be tossed in jail without legal representation and without being able to read the law they're being held under, so they're at home plotting ways to get their flag burning efforts caught on camera.
Fear dominates our security posture, and that's bad. Why should anyone get upset over a little legal flag burning indended to demonstrate that a symbol is NOT an idea, when there is a real attack against the constitution underway by our own government?
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eagl - From what you said, it sounds to me as if you are active military. If this is true, I salute you sir! I would stand up with the salute, but alas that is not possible.
As I said, it sounds as if you are active,if this is true I think you need to go back and reread the proper etiquette for display, handleing and honoring the flag.
If the symbolism of ideas and ideals are open for distruction then you would have no problem with someone burning a replica of the constitution? As a replica it is not against the law to burn or disfigure the document. As a member of the military we are sworn to protect it with our lives. The written word is only a symbol of an idea or ideal.
In short symbols are important, IMO.
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Hear, Hear! Eagl
Well stated.
Charon
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(http://www.fantasiawear.com/ImagesSwim/CR-THHP-SS.jpg)
does sunburn count?
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It's already been said.
SW puts it in the "Cliff's Notes" form and Eagl is the "unabridged" version.
I agree with both and/or either of them.
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ever heard of justifiable homicide? there are those that think no form of murder is justified, they are wrong. Capitol punishment, Self defense and abortion are prime examples of lawful murder. Why cant Sirhan kill off a Kennedy if it is a form of political expression?
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The ability of the TSA airport screeners to slap large fines and detain passengers who voice ANYTHING critical of the security process without any sort of due process, following a set of laws and regulations which cannot be spoken or released due to "security" concerns, is a much greater threat to American freedoms than any terrorist attack, let alone someone who decides it's time to burn a flag on tv to get some attention. Where are the vocal protests outside airports challenging this greater threat? They're too scared to do it because they know they'll be tossed in jail without legal representation and without being able to read the law they're being held under, so they're at home plotting ways to get their flag burning efforts caught on camera.
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Eagl, you must go along with security at airports. Do not pick that time to be anti-establishment. I hope you understand this. :)
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Originally posted by Yeager
ever heard of justifiable homicide? there are those that think no form of murder is justified, they are wrong. Capitol punishment, Self defense and abortion are prime examples of lawful murder. Why cant Sirhan kill off a Kennedy if it is a form of political expression?
Killing Kennedy is not an example of lawful murder.
Next!
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What about retroactive abortions. Do those count?
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Burning the flag is one of the most obvious forms of political speech one can do. Doing so is covered by the first amendment. This has of course been ruled on by the supreme court. I don't know about anyone else, but adding constitutional amendments to limit the freedoms we have laid out scares the **** out of me. Slippery slope and all that stuff.
Anyone who doesn't support the right of flag burnings is no patriot. You don't have to support the act, but the entire point of the first amendment is to allow people to make statements you don't like. Public discourse and all that crap.
Then again, what do I know? I'm one of the weirdos that takes the bill of rights more seriously than the most fundamentalist religious ******* takes his favorite holy story book.
In the words of George Carlin,
"The US flag is a symbol. And I'll leave symbols to the symbol minded."
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I think one should be able to express their freedom of speech, even if it means burning a flag. However, if they decide to try to express their 1st amendment on my property, I will excercise my 2nd amendment on them.
That's fine. The 2nd amendment gives you the right to bear arms, not to shoot people for expressing ideas you don't like. Somehow I don't think they'd mind too much.
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The only value the act has is shock value. Remove that and what will they do?
Are you shocked that there are such dips and they are allowed to play with matches? Surely not.
If the very best protest they can come up with is to burn the flag, it doesn't say much for their intelligence, imagination or their cause.
I guess I'm saying ignore it.
I just like to imagine that the ones burning it are/will be the first ones crying to be rescued by men carrying it should the need ever arise.
That's not hard to imagine at all.
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When you swear an oath to uphold the constitution, your oath does not end if a certain piece of paper were to be destroyed. It is the body of ideas that you swear to uphold, not the piece of paper.
The first amendment says that congress shall make no law abridging my right to freedom of speech. Political expression is the most important part of this, because if the government is not big enough to handle criticism then we have big problems.
Burning the flag is a form of political protest and if that expression is abriged we have lost an important freedom, and a symbol of the unabriged right to protest our government.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
When you swear an oath to uphold the constitution, your oath does not end if a certain piece of paper were to be destroyed. It is the body of ideas that you swear to uphold, not the piece of paper.
True enough. I was being purposefully ridiculous. ;)
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you were successful:)
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See rule #7
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Wow, you're quite the American. I hope you spit on him too, just to make yourself that much more of a hero.
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Originally posted by SOB
Wow, you're quite the American. I hope you spit on him too, just to make yourself that much more of a hero.
No, I was 17 and almost enlisted in the Army. Sign O' the Times.
Karaya
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Aight, I did a lot of stupid things when I was 17 too. And when I was 18...
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Originally posted by SOB
Aight, I did a lot of stupid things when I was 17 too. And when I was 18...
<>
Karaya
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Certainly, a pretty un-necessary bit of legislation.. a flag burner would necessarily want a crowd. The law of averages and current patriotic frevor considered..
..well, there's no law against stupidity, but as granpaw used ta say, "the penalty for stupidity is usually death."
On the other hand, some pretty good points have been made on the relative value of protecting the right of freedom of speech and expression and the infringement on those rights by frivolus legistaltion.
Net result.. no law needed.
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Well I put my life on the line for 20 years so the *******s would have the right to burn the flag, I do not like it and would love to kick the living **** out of them, but that is what freedom means.