Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 09:50:58 AM

Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 09:50:58 AM
I'm wondering if it would be possible to play with no icons at all, I'm not sure ow we would tell te differance in the teams but by having icons it really nagates the skins people make.  Why pick a camo that blends in nicely to the background if you are still going to have a big bright red icon giving you away?  The gunnery would also be more accurate because you would not know the range accactilly.  

Just an Idea let me know what you all think.
Nick
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: mussie on June 30, 2005, 09:56:43 AM
Yep and then NOE bombing runs (and yes they were done in WWII) would be really effective.

NOE --> Nape of the earth not to be confused with dive bombing b24's
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: RTR on June 30, 2005, 09:59:37 AM
You can turn icons off or on at your discretion.

They key command for icons is  Alt i

Each time you press alt i, the icons will cycle through.

Friendly icons
enemy icons
player icons
normal icons

Cheers,
RTR
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: mussie on June 30, 2005, 10:12:16 AM
Yeah but I think monteini was refering to having them turned off for everyone.

Could you imagine the carnage in a furball, ppl would be kill shooting themselves all the time.

Friendly fire was common in WWII as I understand it
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 10:13:49 AM
rtr
I know you can take Icons off, but that would be like flying with half throttle all of the time, you would be handycapping yourself seriously.  and it still would not address the problem of you being seen by others.  I could have the best camo ever, and my opponint would still see the big red icon stating that I was in a ..... and 2k off. Kind of ruens the element of surprize.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 10:18:05 AM
In TOD this would be possible because you can tell the differance between a 51 and a 109. in the MA just by changing the range of the icons it would be better instead of showing up at a range of 6k turn it down to a range of 1k, that would be a lot more realistic, and give the attacker more of an element of surprize. This would also make radar more valuable

just an idea.

Nick
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Westy on June 30, 2005, 10:28:16 AM
In the fantasy MA with icons off how could you tell the difference between a Knight, a Bishop or a Rook Spitfire?



(change LA-7 to Spitfire so as to hurt sensitive feelings some have for the LA-7)
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 10:33:26 AM
Well as I stated before, turning the Icons down so they would not show up untill they are within 1k, you could still tell the differance in teams. Also by using radar. and you can tell an LA7 from anything else, they look different and are flown badly normally always by new pilots or people padding their scores lol, but lets not make this into another bashing la post.

Nick
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Alky on June 30, 2005, 10:37:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
Well as I stated before, turning the Icons down so they would not show up untill they are within 1k,

Nick

So I could chase somebody for a sector to find out he's a friendly... not for me thanx, I wouldn't even bother upping if I have to look for a black dot against the ground textures :(
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: mussie on June 30, 2005, 10:38:04 AM
Why not we could start a whole new forum for lala bashing s******
:p
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: hitech on June 30, 2005, 10:38:27 AM
monteini. What is your goal in removing icons?

Even at 1k icons you completly change the game into a hunt for a target wrather than, engage in a fight.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Morpheus on June 30, 2005, 10:41:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
monteini. What is your goal in removing icons?

Even at 1k icons you completly change the game into a hunt for a target wrather than, engage in a fight.


:)

That's the problem... Not many care about fighting. Rather its stats, life, and taking bases.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 10:45:31 AM
I thought that is why we have radar? If that is not the reason we have radar then what is it? also if you fly to a sector with a large red bar, they are probably upping at the base there. Is this a game for furballing or base capturing, if its furballing then you will find plenty of action at the key bases, and for base capture my suggestion will improve realizm which is what alot of people want on that end.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: mussie on June 30, 2005, 10:47:08 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but you dont appear on the DAR when your below 200 or somthing  right ?
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SlapShot on June 30, 2005, 12:30:13 PM
Well as I stated before, turning the Icons down so they would not show up untill they are within 1k

Thats not what you orginally posted ...

I'm wondering if it would be possible to play with no icons at all

Then you changed your tune ...

Well as I stated before, turning the Icons down so they would not show up untill they are within 1k

Thanks ... but no thanks ... use Alt-i and knock yourself out.

Even at 1k icons you completly change the game into a hunt for a target wrather than, engage in a fight.

HT !!! Shame on you ... you mentioned that BAD WORD ... FIGHT !!!

Correct me if I am wrong but you dont appear on the DAR when your below 200 or somthing right ?

It is 500 ft AGL (Above Ground Level) and below that one will not show up on enemy dar.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SlapShot on June 30, 2005, 12:32:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
I thought that is why we have radar? If that is not the reason we have radar then what is it? also if you fly to a sector with a large red bar, they are probably upping at the base there. Is this a game for furballing or base capturing, if its furballing then you will find plenty of action at the key bases, and for base capture my suggestion will improve realizm which is what alot of people want on that end.


Realism freaks --------- this way to ---------> CT/TOD
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: megadud on June 30, 2005, 12:39:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Realism freaks --------- this way to ---------> CT/TOD


LOL :lol :lol

icons used to tell me whether it is a runner or a fighter. I like em keep em.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SPQR on June 30, 2005, 01:01:19 PM
I agree that icons should be reduced. We already have country DAR (shows where all friendlies are) and base DAR (enemy incoming) If your worried about what's on the deck below Dar, check your map. You will always have SA on enemy that way. And maybe this is a way to make the HQ DAR much more relavent to the game as well.(Once HQ down no DAR at all! What a concept strat relevance in the game) The way I see it, the MA is a hunt with the ability to suprise your enemy "out of the sun" so to speak.(basic air combat rules of engagement) The 6k icon negates this option. I know that air combat would be different. ex. BnZ plane sets are severely handicapped because of the enemy being able to set up defensively at 6k. Forcing most flyers "not all" into a HO guns solution. BnZ is the ability to have suprise and get in and out fast. Dogfights may be done at higher altitudes because of not wanting to get jumped. Maybe there might be two furballs generated from reduced icon ranges mid to high alt fights with BnZer's and your current Turn fights on the deck. And finally for those who have mastered the 6k merge, it would be interesting to see how the playing field would be leveled. More of a challenge at least for the first merge I'd say. So for me, hunt the enemy and kill him quick in the MA. Engage the enemy and play with your lunch in the DA. All I know is reduced icons in my humble opinon would level the playing field just abit with regards to plane sets. And make more interesting aerial dogfights.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Karnak on June 30, 2005, 01:11:27 PM
Because without icons you are simulating a fighter pilot that is legally blind from a DMV standpoint.

The detail and size shown on a computerscreen is a pathitic imitation of what we see in reality.  It has gotten a lot better, but it has only traveled about 5% of the way from the earlist graphics to what we can really see.


If you want to play "Chase the dot" then you can set up your own H2H arena.  The vast majority do not care for "chase the dot" gameplay.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Hoarach on June 30, 2005, 02:12:48 PM
If HT did turn off the icons we would most likely have to shrink the countries down to two and be split between allied and axis aircraft.  If it wasnt split it would be harder to identify who is who but if the aircraft are split it would become very interesting and wouldnt have this allied vs allied aircraft or etc that we do know and be a little bit more realistic.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Morpheus on June 30, 2005, 02:19:30 PM
PS- why dont you do a SEARCH on this topic.

Rather than starting another thread on a topic thats' been beaten to death a thousand times already.

:aok

PS#2- MS Flightsim 200000019 is ------that way----->

Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 03:16:05 PM
morpheus,

Are you having a bad day or is it that your just open to change? Now I see from your stats that you are an average pilot with average skills so hey, a change might be good for ya. I also knowticed that you are big on flying the LA7 80 kills to 33 deaths in it, so I'm sorry if I pissed ya off about flying a simple plane. forgive me.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: lasersailor184 on June 30, 2005, 03:21:03 PM
I think the real problem here isn't necessarily the icons, but how they are used.

I can make the concession that it would be bad for gameplay to have no Icons.

But I think we need to go one up on the recent icon update.  I.E. From 6.0k out you are able to even tell what the general type of plane is.

I think it just needs to be a RED dot or something, signifying that it is an enemy.  However, the type needs to kick on at 3k, with the specifics at 800 yards.



But I think the most important thing we need to do is get rid of the black dot of a plane.  Things at extreme distances don't turn into a not too subtle pitch black dot.  Especially when seen with land behind it.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SlapShot on June 30, 2005, 03:21:08 PM
If your worried about what's on the deck below Dar, check your map. You will always have SA on enemy that way.

Wrong ...

If the enemy is NOE (500 ft or less AGL) and outside the radar bubble you WILL NOT see a Dar Bar.

If the enemy is NOE (500 ft or less AGL) and inside the radar bubble you WILL NOT see a Enemy Dar Bar, NOR will you see Enemy Dot Dar, but the base WILL blink once the radar bubble boundry has been crossed.

Enemy Dar Bar and Enemy Dot Dar will not register if the enemy aircraft is 500 ft or less AGL.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SlapShot on June 30, 2005, 03:22:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
morpheus,

Are you having a bad day or is it that your just open to change? Now I see from your stats that you are an average pilot with average skills so hey, a change might be good for ya. I also knowticed that you are big on flying the LA7 80 kills to 33 deaths in it, so I'm sorry if I pissed ya off about flying a simple plane. forgive me.


QUAH !!!! PWNED !!! WOOOOOOOWOOOOOO !!!!

(monteini ... scroll back and check past tours for Morph ... then ... open mouth ... insert foot)
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: straffo on June 30, 2005, 03:24:23 PM
To test the no icon idea you need 3 fishes : 1 knight ,1 rook and 1 bishop and a tank filled with water.

You put the 3 fishes in the tank and next you drop some LSD.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: AWMac on June 30, 2005, 03:35:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
QUAH !!!! PWNED !!! WOOOOOOOWOOOOOO !!!!

(monteini ... scroll back and check past tours for Morph ... then ... open mouth ... insert foot)


:rofl
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Siaf__csf on June 30, 2005, 04:02:31 PM
The limited field of view of a computer screen makes no icons unrealistically challenging.

It would be harder than life spotting your enemy.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: TexMurphy on June 30, 2005, 04:30:54 PM
Would be fun but would give unfair advantage to players with high end graphics card beeing able to ID planes faster and easier due to higher resolution.

Tex
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SuperDud on June 30, 2005, 04:53:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
morpheus,

Are you having a bad day or is it that your just open to change? Now I see from your stats that you are an average pilot with average skills so hey, a change might be good for ya. I also knowticed that you are big on flying the LA7 80 kills to 33 deaths in it, so I'm sorry if I pissed ya off about flying a simple plane. forgive me.


Oh no you didn't!!! Now that you have brought score/stats into it, I doubt Morph will be able to back down. After all, without a good score U r TeH $l_lCk. Be careful with this one Morph, he has a good score:eek:
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: BTW on June 30, 2005, 05:00:00 PM
>>The limited field of view of a computer screen makes no icons unrealistically challenging.

It would be harder than life spotting your enemy.

<<

Really, and how often in life do you have to move a hat to glance left or right, or look past a canaopy frame. There are some trivial things that are complex in AH, so maybe the few easy things ( icons) balance it out. Above all, the number one test has to be"so is it fun?"
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: RTR on June 30, 2005, 05:42:08 PM
BTW, thank you.

If I ever see you in person your beer is paid for.

cheers,
RTR
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SPQR on June 30, 2005, 06:38:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
If your worried about what's on the deck below Dar, check your map. You will always have SA on enemy that way.

Wrong ...

If the enemy is NOE (500 ft or less AGL) and outside the radar bubble you WILL NOT see a Dar Bar.

If the enemy is NOE (500 ft or less AGL) and inside the radar bubble you WILL NOT see a Enemy Dar Bar, NOR will you see Enemy Dot Dar, but the base WILL blink once the radar bubble boundry has been crossed.

Enemy Dar Bar and Enemy Dot Dar will not register if the enemy aircraft is 500 ft or less AGL.


I know this! I'm talking about if you see dots on horizon below 500 any alt  for that matter. check your map! If your friendlies are not over there obviously their enemy
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: BTW on June 30, 2005, 06:57:29 PM
There ya go,  RTR. And if you ever find yourself in the deep south come Mardi Gras - the beer (and crawfish) is on me :D
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: monteini on June 30, 2005, 06:59:01 PM
Morpheus,

 I'm sorry that was uncalled for. Just got carried away. I'm just trying to come up with ideas to make this game the best it can possible be.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Overlag on June 30, 2005, 07:39:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
:)

That's the problem... Not many care about fighting. Rather its stats, life, and taking bases.


i like fighting to take bases. I hate fighting with no objective (bog standard furballs) which seems to be what MA is about lately, no one seems to care about taking bases.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: DipStick on June 30, 2005, 07:56:08 PM
I think you should take morpheus to the DA monteini and teach him a lesson! He's such a lamer... :eek:
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: TequilaChaser on June 30, 2005, 10:03:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
morpheus,

Are you having a bad day or is it that your just open to change? Now I see from your stats that you are an average pilot with average skills so hey, a change might be good for ya. I also knowticed that you are big on flying the LA7 80 kills to 33 deaths in it, so I'm sorry if I pissed ya off about flying a simple plane. forgive me.



:rofl   classic

( waiting for Morph's rebuttal,   you other BurgerKings let Morph  speak please :D  )


potstirrer 1st class TC

The Damned
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: hubsonfire on June 30, 2005, 10:09:12 PM
:rolleyes:
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: TequilaChaser on June 30, 2005, 10:25:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
:rolleyes:



awesome hub, you showing some true apathy in that post.  sometimes is hard to figure out  if people are pissed or just hmm what should one call it, upset? offended? when using the vomity looking green fellow

I am sure if Morph saw my post he would chuckle and see it was out of fun........and the BK comment comes from recollecting on a post from the past,  and I prefer Wendy's er I mean Wendy! ;)

TC
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: TequilaChaser on June 30, 2005, 10:30:06 PM
monteini,

don't worry about it,  any time you got an idea feel free to post it, and don't pay any attention to the ones that try to smack you back down in your chair for trying to offer up a suggestion.

a junior member on these boards with 7 post and he gets the crap kicked, knocked, slapped out of his suggestion.............

someone should have said welcome to the AH BBS monteini,  hmm think I just did!
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Dead Man Flying on June 30, 2005, 10:37:35 PM
I always see people bring up stats to discredit the opinions of others.  Does anyone actually believe that Monteini would have conceded Morpheus' point had Morph possessed god-like stats?

Hm.

-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SuperDud on June 30, 2005, 11:30:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
( waiting for Morph's rebuttal,   you other BurgerKings let Morph  speak please :D  )




Didn't you get the memo TC? We BK's travel in packs on these boards as well as in the game. DUHHHH!
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: LivetoDie on July 01, 2005, 01:44:19 AM
In response to monteini's original proposal and all the rebutals following it occured to me that the solution would be to color the planes according to the country. All the cool skins would have to be replaced with red,white or blue or what ever colors were deemed appropriate for each country. Ok so now we have dealt with the identifying the country problem. Now you have to actually get close enough to see what kind of aircraft it is and the closure rate.
It might be a bit challenging at first but I believe eventually folks would get good at figuring out what they were up against and react accordingly.
Mmmmmmmm...that would seem to be kind of like how real WW2 pilots had to do it.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Eagler on July 01, 2005, 06:32:54 AM
as it is allied v axis, you can do it in CT, I do it for a challenge sometimes. Yep you are at a disadvantage but who cares. The 3k icon range is better in CT than the 6k (isn't that more than a mile, who could tell a 51 from a 109 at that distance in RL?) in MA IMO but go no icons or friendly icons only for a real kick
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Westy on July 01, 2005, 07:25:07 AM
"All the cool skins would have to be replaced with red,white or blue or what ever colors were deemed appropriate for each country. "


 Now that would be immersive!

 Rook: White Tempest stop running like a skaredee kat!

 Bishop: Wuh? And let all 12 of you blue LA7's catch up and gang bang me?


(not!)
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: DREDIOCK on July 01, 2005, 07:44:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by mussie
Yep and then NOE bombing runs (and yes they were done in WWII) would be really effective.

NOE --> Nape of the earth not to be confused with dive bombing b24's


Not usually  by B-17s and Lancasters though
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: DREDIOCK on July 01, 2005, 07:53:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak


If you want to play "Chase the dot" then you can set up your own H2H arena.  The vast majority do not care for "chase the dot" gameplay.


FINALLY!! A "Majority" claim I can agree with!

Outstanding:aok
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: DREDIOCK on July 01, 2005, 08:01:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
morpheus,

Are you having a bad day or is it that your just open to change? Now I see from your stats that you are an average pilot with average skills so hey, a change might be good for ya. I also knowticed that you are big on flying the LA7 80 kills to 33 deaths in it, so I'm sorry if I pissed ya off about flying a simple plane. forgive me.


Most of the stats here are a poor way of judging a players ability.

I've seen some with terrible stats who could whoop the P out of the majority of players here and I've seen some top 10 pilots that when caught alone and without their horde behind them couldnt fight their way out of a paper bag if it were made out of wet toilet paper.

Stats here are VERY misleading and relitively easy to manipulate based on the way you fly
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: BTW on July 01, 2005, 10:15:00 AM
>>I always see people bring up stats to discredit the opinions of others. Does anyone actually believe that Monteini would have conceded Morpheus' point had Morph possessed god-like stats?
<<

Thats the only reason I listen to you, Lev. If you ever get in a slump, I'm skipping your posts :D
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Kazaa on July 01, 2005, 12:39:17 PM
Guys I know i'm well late on this thread but listen up anyway, If we where flying as USAF, RAF, Luftwaffe instead of Bish, Rocks & Knights then you would have a point about the non icon thing, I say this because you would be able to tell the shape & colours of the planes ( Spitfire, 109, FUF etc), but even then it would not be a good idea as ah graphics are not that great & you would have to get D400 to see what plane he was flying anyway.

I was always wondering if the game would be better if you had to look at the plane for a period of time before you saw him high lighted, but anyway I like the game how it is so no chasing the dot for me.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: hubsonfire on July 01, 2005, 02:28:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
awesome hub, you showing some true apathy in that post.  sometimes is hard to figure out  if people are pissed or just hmm what should one call it, upset? offended? when using the vomity looking green fellow. TC


Just trying to contain my excitement and surprise at another bash on the squad by a DMD. I thought Ren was in charge of searching the BBS for a post by one of us and popping in to swing a purse. Too much work for 1 guy, huh?
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 01, 2005, 05:24:28 PM
That's ALOT better, I knew you had it in you, hub :)

wished you would have quoted my whole reply though, you can see where the BK part was all in jest. As for taking a swing at your squad,  I have at times had my indifferences with 1 or 2  members of this squad or that squad, but  ( and I may be slightly wrong here but don't think so) do not usually go around attacking other squads on the BBS or in the Game.

As I said, I would think Morph would have chuckled and then came back with sharp retart.......

regarding the stats issue,  everyone knows if someone used my stats to guage my responses by, I would seriously be laughed upon :D  


is all good,  Happy 4th to the Blue Knights! ~S~

TC
The Damned

(oh yeah, Ren was wanting us to pay him overtime for his efforts, we had to let him take a vacation.............j/king )
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SuperDud on July 01, 2005, 05:52:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
regarding the stats issue,  everyone knows if someone used my stats to guage my responses by, I would seriously be laughed upon :D  
 


You already are laughed at TC:p
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 01, 2005, 06:18:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
You already are laughed at TC:p


darn it all, and here I was thinking everyone was laughing with me :eek:

TC
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: scspook on July 01, 2005, 06:23:45 PM
I agree. Lose the iconic things. My biggest hate in the game alongside everyone having every plane they want.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Karnak on July 01, 2005, 06:52:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by scspook
I agree. Lose the iconic things. My biggest hate in the game alongside everyone having every plane they want.

So you want to play a legally blind pilot and chase dots all day?
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: DREDIOCK on July 01, 2005, 06:52:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by scspook
I agree. Lose the iconic things. My biggest hate in the game alongside everyone having every plane they want.


Fugeddabout it. aint gonna happen.
Because the vast majority of players dont want it to happen and more importantly Hitech doesnt want it to happen

If you have so many "hates" in the game. why do you bother playing?

Massochistic streak perhaps?

You could always pick up your ball and go home
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: eilif on July 01, 2005, 08:07:54 PM
in "another game" i fly with enemy icons off and friendly icons on, it works great for historical scenarios, and i have a great time exercising my SA skills, and when i go into an arena that has icons off i can really whoop up on ppl by spotting them first, and aproaching in a tacticaly effective way to get the jump on em.  

MA, heheh na i dont think so, ppl could be heard screaming in agony for miles away:)  for scenarios it would be a beutifull thing, maybe in Squad ops.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: SuperDud on July 01, 2005, 08:18:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Fugeddabout it. aint gonna happen.
Because the vast majority of players dont want it to happen and more importantly Hitech doesnt want it to happen

 


I agree, my thought is 1/2 would like no icon. But the other 1/2 wouldn't. What you have to remember is there are people who just fly for fun more than realism and don't want to spend the time tryin to learn and identify what they are fighting. They just want a relaxed, sit down and not have to worry about tryin to make out the pixels and identify an enemy a/c. On top of this you have kids(and some adults in general) who have no idea what profile goes with what plane, they just know to look for the icon and recognize the name of the a/c. I think HT has tried to find a happy medium between realism and video game and I think so far it's worked well for everyone.
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Silat on July 01, 2005, 09:33:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I always see people bring up stats to discredit the opinions of others.  Does anyone actually believe that Monteini would have conceded Morpheus' point had Morph possessed god-like stats?

Hm.

-- Todd/Leviathn



Morpheus and Cod in the same sentence. We are all going to hell:)
Title: No Icons at all.
Post by: Morpheus on July 02, 2005, 03:57:11 AM


stats.