Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: daddog on July 01, 2005, 07:37:32 PM
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Kinda shows the importance of Frame C.O.’s when 200 plus players are not flying in a planned event. ;) Anyway we will run Frame 2 on Friday July 8th. Numbers would have been off for some squads anyway due to the 4th of July. Maybe it is a blessing in disguise. :)
Dace your still on for Frame 2 next Friday the 8th. Strongly suggest you or one of your squadies gets them out this time. I know you had power/computer problems most of the week. If it happens again get to a phone booth and call a squadie to get them out.
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Thanks for the phone call, daddog.
Good timing, I just got back from finding out the autoshutoff feature of pump #2 at the local Quik Shop doesn't function.
Not a real good feeling of gasoline on your thighs while you're sitting on your motorcycle.
And it's running down the frame..
Near the exhaust manifold...
Time to give the ol' girl a bath. ( After changing shorts )
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please, can we just have a fight in the SEA, my wife goin kill me if she finds out FSO canceled(she knows what the MA is and looks like, so I cant fool her that way.) She wanted to head to the shore tonite, talked her out of it with too much traffic, and FSO.
uh oh here she comes, pulling out old frame ords, make it look like usual Friday night.
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:rofl
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Hard to express my dissapointment in this late cancellation. I flew home early this morning so I could sleep prior to the event. Earlier notification or another squad stepping up to get the orders out should have happened.
I know life happens but I thought that is why there was an email to C.O.'s asking about interest in 1July. If the squad cant make the orders then why not give notification and find someone to do them in abscense, isnt that one of the rules to FSO? Why does the side who is prepaired have to suffer. Seems there should be a penalty assessed to the Allied for not following the rules.
Apologies for expressing my frustration, just been a long week and was really looking forward to tonight. Daddog and all the work you do for us to make this happen.
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ok,ive got no appologies for my words of discust at this decision.we asked that you cancel this a week ago and you said no.so i took off from work to plan this for our side,then posponed a date to be here to run it,now your gonna tell me that its a blessing in disquise?bull chit.im so sick of the disorganization of tods.this is absolutly rediculouse.you guys are makin some good money with this game,how bout payin for someone to run this that knows what they are doin?how friggin hard is it to decide wheather to do it or not?o ..the other side isnt ready?well tough .know what happens when the enemy attacks and your not ready?you die.o but lets give them a second chance,after all ,the guy who runs this flies with them right?the people in squads are the ones who are regulars,they are your bread and butter.how bout givin them some one who isnt biased and knows what they are doing instead of this hack that makes it up as he goes.
o, and ya...give the squad who couldnt get it together enough to spend 5 hours to send out orders another chance,just hope their one computer is doin good.yall takin turns flyin?let us know if we should show up or not,ok?one hours notice will be fine.hack.suk.
i dont care im pissed,i will not plan orders for next week.i did my part,let someone else waste thier time.fate is not doing orders next week,weve done our rotation.by the way i have all of my squad ready for tods,even though its a holiday.
TOD=Temporaraly Outoforder, too Disorganized
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LOL Doobs! I think the CM’s have setup a Snapshot for those who want to play. :)
I hear you Kev. I know there are many players like you who have planned their day/week around making this Friday night. Maybe moved a date or two, dinner movie, made special arraignments with their wife. This is very common. For many Friday Squad Operations has turned Aces High into a “hobby” not just a game. It certainly has for me. Many times when my wife and I discuss the weekly goings on we always factor in Friday nights and try to avoid planning things on that night. I know “many” players do also.
Yes there are rules and serious consequences for Squads who don’t hold up their end of the bargain. Everyone who is a C.O. or X.O. has to be a Frame C.O. sooner or later. All squads are given the benefit of the doubt the first time something like this happens. Real life gets in the way for all of us. Nevertheless if it happens again they are removed from Squad Operations. This is why we insist on 2 contacts for every squad. If something happens to one C.O. or X.O. the other needs to deal with it or you have to cancel an event for over 200 players like we did tonight. Thankfully this is rare. I think maybe 4 times in all the years we have been running the TOD/Squad Operations.
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ok,ive got no appologies for my words of discust at this decision.we asked that you cancel this a week ago and you said no.so i took off from work to plan this for our side,then posponed a date to be here to run it,now your gonna tell me that its a blessing in disquise?bull chit.
I did not say it was a blessing in disguise, I said it may be. Obviously it was not for you.
im so sick of the disorganization of tods.
This event has been called Squad Operations for about 2 years now.
this is absolutly rediculouse.you guys are makin some good money with this game,how bout payin for someone to run this that knows what they are doin?
I am not making any money. Nor are any CM’s. Could be why the TOD’s…err Squad Operations sucks. Contact support@hitechcreations and let them know how you feel about the CM’s and our events.
how friggin hard is it to decide wheather to do it or not?
Was not hard at all. The original question about running Squad Ops this Friday had to do with it being the 4th of July weekend. The reason is was canceled now was do to a player, not a CM.
..the other side isnt ready?well tough .know what happens when the enemy attacks and your not ready?you die.
You ever fly for 2 hours in Squad Operations without any action? That is rare, very rare and it is because everyone knows what target they are to hit and target they are to protect. Had we ran it tonight without any Allied orders you might have had 50 or more players not see any action.
the people in squads are the ones who are regulars,they are your bread and butter.how bout givin them some one who isnt biased and knows what they are doing instead of this hack that makes it up as he goes.
Not sure what you mean? Who is bias?
Thankfully the orders for frame 2 have already been posted and or sent out by Damnname so you don’t have to worry about them.
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so lets see the consequences?take away thier cv's and take away a37 for the next round?hell,why not give us a base in thier back lines "just to make it interesting"?
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I will leave that up to the Admin CM who wrote this event.
take away thier cv's and take away a37 for the next round?hell,why not give us a base in thier back lines "just to make it interesting"?
Of course if we did that then both sides would have to "redo" their orders. I know of at least one side who will not do that. ;)
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
so lets see the consequences?take away thier cv's and take away a37 for the next round?hell,why not give us a base in thier back lines "just to make it interesting"?
Hell while your at it, how about us allied up in sopwith camels.
maybe a blimp or two.
BTW daddog were cutting your salary by 50%, lets see 50% from nothing hmmmmmmm
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frame 2 was just canceled...?damname is in my squad?we have sent no orders?you plan on just runnin this like thier was no delay?sorry but giving me (the one who wrote the orders for damname)2 days to plan and them (the ones who did nothing)10 days to plan is unacceptable.redo the entire thing from scratch,give to the next squad.it was a holiday,so we didnt fight.next.
as far as no action goes,our target was the cv's.our side would have gladly gone in against a disorganized side and creamed the target,and got home safe.sounds real boring huh?
squad ops is supposed to be about how well squads work together,this is a clear sign of how the enemy works as a squad.they should have had to run as is.not given a time out.
what i mean by bias is,what side did you fly on last week,when you decided to award a37 to the enemy even though they didnt actually destroy it?what side you supposed to fly this week?:mad:
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i dont claim to know who is really in charge of this,daddog,maybee im yellin at you and your not the one,but my point remains.whoever is in charge is not doin a good job,and im getting tiered of paying for it.to all volunteers
.im one as well, so i know what you do.my point is you all know how disorganized tods is(i dont care what u call it).we all pay to play,i think a couple of paid hours toward making this right is in order.
and ya,if you cant prepare for the enemy,you should be in a blimp.
didnt see you sayin anything when they gave you a base for nothin doobs?
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Better make it 90% Doobs. I see this going downhill fast. :)
frame 2 was just canceled...?damname is in my squad?
??? Damnnam posted you guys sent out the orders. I was not questioning that.
we have sent no orders?you plan on just runnin this like thier was no delay?sorry but giving me (the one who wrote the orders for damname)2 days to plan and them
KO the Admin CM for this event should have had the orders out to FATE by Sunday or Monday. Are you saying you did not get the orders till Wed? I know he was sick with the flu last week, but as far as I know he got the orders out on time. If they were late for one side they were late for both.
what i mean by bias is,what side did you fly on last week,when you decided to award a37 to the enemy even though they didnt actually destroy it?what side you supposed to fly this week?
I flew for the Allied last week and will for frames 2 and 3. I made no decision to award A37. That is up to the Admin CM who is 68KO.
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k,so whats your part in this dad?
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i dont claim to know who is really in charge of this,daddog,maybee im yellin at you and your not the one
You can yell at me. I am the one who made the decision to cancel it.
but my point remains.whoever is in charge is not doin a good job,and im getting tiered of paying for it.to all volunteers.im one as well, so i know what you do.my point is you all know how disorganized tods is(i dont care what u call it).we all pay to play,i think a couple of paid hours toward making this right is in order.
Well I am the Head CM. It all flows uphill to me. :) We have team leaders for all our events, Snapshot, Scenarios, Squad Ops etc. Ghostdancer is the Lead CM for Squad Operations. Under him are the Admin CM’s and the Setup CM’s for Squad Operations. 68KO is the Admin CM for this months Squad Ops. I had nothing to do with the planning or scoring.
I guess the bottom line is your not happy with Squad Operations. Sounds like things have not been going to your liking and the canceling tonight really pissed you off.
I don’t have an answer for you beyond what I have already posted. I wish I could say things will improve, but for the most part we have been running Squad Operations the same for years, with some minor tweaks and changes. What makes Squad Operations great is the active cooperation of the Squads, but when a Frame C.O. does not follow through on his responsibilities it does spoil it for a lot of players. Squads that are chronic in their lack of responsibilities are removed from Squad Operations. That is why (IMHO) most of the Friday nights go so well. Almost all the squads we have do what they need to do, but every once and a while someone will drop the ball and spoil the night for a LOT of players.
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JUst as an also ran A37 could have been leveled down to the last pub(even though I could never ever hit a watering hole).
our ords told us to squash everything but the FH's, which we did.
And still had guys left with eggs, The guys left with eggs asked me what to do I told them to drop anywhere and hed home to rearm.
At resupply we got the order to reupp and hit fh's at a37(was wondering why, cause we could of done it on the first run)
but we had 12 fiters after rearm but lost 7 to disco on the reup.
so 5 of us went back in and realized we couldn't take all three fh's down we had only one 1k bomb each, we tried to get two, with 2 direct hits on each and one drop inbetween, but only one hanger went down.
If we would of wiped it out on first pass and with no discoes, we would have returned to the untouched port and crushed that.
IMHO
And believe me I'm not happy about this either, got wife ack shelling me from all angles, with lethality turned all the way up.
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well that sucks.( in real life do that stop fighting on the 4th ?? think NOT (
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Originally posted by yb11
well that sucks.( in real life do that stop fighting on the 4th ?? think NOT (
Um.. the evening was postponed due to the fact that 50% of the participants did not receive specific orders from their country CO in time.
Please remember a couple of things.
The CM team works very hard and diligently to prepare an event that is balanced and complex enough to provide a challenge to those tasked with commanding their side for an evening. These are not walkon events for good reason. They have the potential to be very intricatly choreographed events, given commanders with such a desire.
Also, many participants set aside time in their squad schedules to actually PRACTICE the orders they have received for the week. If they don't get their orders and can get some practice time in, they can get grumpy too.
We have postponed events before due to squads not receiving their orders with an adequate enough time to prepare and communicate.
Is it unfortunate that this happens? Absolutely. Do we enjoy doing it? Absolutely not. I'd love to see that everything falls into place nice and orderly every week and we have our events with no mishaps, missettings, no discos, and all the beer is cold and within a week of it's born on date.
With that said, I hope to see everybody next Friday for frame 2.
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sqwiglly, im sorry if I led this thread into a frustration fest. I was just venting because of a few bad hours in the MA, No FSO, and a long week. My apologies to all concerned.
The guys who run this are an all volunteer group. They do this so we can all have a good time. Without them there would be no FSO. And like I said in my last post " Life Happens", just sometimes we lose sight of that as I did tonight.
FSO has become my favorite part of AH. I flew home from work early, havent seen my family in a week. My wife wanted to goto dinner and a movie, but Nope its FSO night. So Daddog yeah I fell right into your scenario.
For those of you who were there a Snapshot did run in FSO's place. It wasnt the same but none the less, very fun!
I am looking forward to frame 2 next week. All
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Thanks for showing up Tonight.
Will post logs tomorrow.
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i know this is all volunteers and life happens,but thats my point.why are we paying for something run by us?if one guys bad computer can jack it up for all of us then something is wrong with the system.as squads we are the bread and butter for this company,i dont think its too much to ask that they put a paid employee to make shure this is done right.
i agree that tods is where i have the most fun in the game,so why is it given the least attention?ive been in tods for 2 years and nothing has changed.we still get orders late,we still have fields that are supposed to work,yet dont.we still have planes we should be able to fly but cant,we have squad leaders that cant get orders out and we just cancel it?the squad opps board is still jacked,i cant view half of it?this has been this way for a long time and no one seems to care?htc has managed to rewrite the whole game,but cant fix these minor problembs?no ,they could fix them ,probobly in one day.but instead we all deal with the same bs and say well,thats tods.bs.fix it.or i will have to fly angry
btw,i think it would be great if the senario was a little more realalistic.make it last 3 months or till victory,bring the goons in and make the side actually capture a base to get it? make it a true ,squad on squad,side on side fight
also,ty to all who have put up with my misspelling
o...and kev,stop appolagising,you the biggest complainer ive ever seen in this game,you gonna start pullin punches now?
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I to made plans around FSO, left work early and everything. But I must say there were a lot of us (squads) that wanted to make a go of it regradless of orders or lack thereof. As for the blessing in disguise well I got to spend some time with my son and we played Star Wars together so that part was cool for me.
But I believe that we should let the next squad in rotation have a go at it. You take your shot and drop the ball then it's the next guy's turn. Who is to say that the Allied CO's computer problems will be corrected in time for the next frame? Why take the chance. Like what was said earlier some 200 guys were let down, are we willing to let that happen again?
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In the famous words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?"
I was disappointed in not having FSO tonight. But you know what? Sometimes things happen that are out of our control. I want to express my appreciation to all those involved in setting up and organizing these events. Lord knows I would have a hard time doing it. Would probably have everyone pissed off at me if I was responsible for it.
Like it has been said several times in previous posts, FSO has become a part of my weekly routine as well. I am kind of bummed out the one down week we have between scenarios.
It is understandable for those of you that want to vent your frustrations. Before you do, however, stop and think about how much work must be involved in setting these things up. I am dissapointed it did not go tonight. I would, however, been even more disappointed had it gone but in such a way as to not create a challenge.
I just have a different feeling when playing in the FSO than I do in the MA. The palms of my hands get sweaty, I get a knot in my stomach. It must be the fact that you get one life (for most part) and not the unlimited stuff you do in the MA. I am a team player and in these scenarious people generaly work better as a team than in the MA.
Any way, chill out, relax, get a cold one and raise it with me in honor of those that work so hard to provide us with a few hours of entertainment.
Thats All
Muttman
Sick Puppies
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See Rule #5
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We pay our $15 for the game platform, the community is what we make of it. Would everyone be willing to pay $20 so HTC can staff certain events that only cater to a segment of the player base?
The Squad Ops is a value-added component that was designed by community volunteers. Let HTC develop the game platform, and leverage the player community to develop events, design skins, etc., we all win in the end.
I feel the folks who volunteer to run Squad Ops for us have done a fantastic job over the years. They have been very responsive to player input, and done everything possible to minimize snafus. Every once in a while we will have a situation like last night, lets just take the lessons learned and move on, like we always do.
Cya Up!
Dawg
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come on,every one do nothing,ready....go
I don't blame you one bit for being upset. I've been involved in events and scenarios for probably 10 years now.
The effort made to pull orders out and make last minute changes are intense at times, and having the thing fall apart at the last minute just royally bites.
That's one of the main reasons that we "volunteers" are working long and hard on a new system of notification and registration that is designed to help prevent situations like this.
Having both had major events cancelled out from under me, as well as having to deal with events where the players in command failed to perform, I clearly understand the frustration, and can only say the CM team that is assembled in AH at this time is aware of not only why cancelled events are so disruptive to everyone involved, but are in the middle of some very aggressive activities to eliminate these gaps in communication.
Most players have no way of knowing this, so I won't bludgeon you about the "do nothing" quote :D . I designed a similar system for my office, and it took 6 months to implement. This team is working on improving the events with untold hours behind the scenes, yet still only a few months into it, knowing full well that last nights situation is exactly what is being targeted for improvement.
So keep blasting your points, that's how we know what is working and where it's not. Feedback from any soapbox is warranted and really does help.
Of note, I am very impressed that such an ugly situation, although passionate in response, hasn't gotten vile as it seems to do so often.
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Logs posted in Snapshot Forum, for those who participated last night.
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sqwiglly, your whining is pathetic. The reason for the cancellation is not a CM or an organization issue. It is that a Frame CO did not get the orders out.
This happens once in a while as real life issues get in the way of a game. If you don't like the way Squad Ops is run, you can always quit and find something else to do. Of course then you would have nothing to ***** about ..... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
o...and kev,stop appolagising,you the biggest complainer ive ever seen in this game,you gonna start pullin punches now?
Do I know you? You must have me confused with someone else.
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Originally posted by elc7367b
In the famous words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?"
I was disappointed in not having FSO tonight. But you know what? Sometimes things happen that are out of our control. I want to express my appreciation to all those involved in setting up and organizing these events. Lord knows I would have a hard time doing it. Would probably have everyone pissed off at me if I was responsible for it.
Any way, chill out, relax, get a cold one and raise it with me in honor of those that work so hard to provide us with a few hours of entertainment.
Thats All
Muttman
Sick Puppies
Well I'm glad to see not EVERYONE is pizzed at me.
I don't know how many times I can say I'm sorry. I also cant express how disappointed I am at not being able to fly.......
AT ALL right now. Let alone Friday. And for those that do not know .....my XO and I were not able to send or receive e-mail ALL WEEK ....I'm still not able to send for some reason....can recieve but not send... I tried my damndest and was thwarted my the luck bug at every turn. IT WAS NOT A MATTER PROCRASTINATION. I tried everything I could not to let you guys down. And will continue to do so.
~S~
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Things happen Dace, not sure what was going on at your end. It happend, you apologized, apology accepted. Get the orders out for next week and we can move on.
The issue I have is with those who use this as an excuse to pick away at the CM's who are the driving force behind the squad-ops. I wonder if sqwiggly can man up and apologize to the CM's for his out of line posts in this thread?
Better yet sqwiggly, write one up. Plan three frames and lets see how much better you are. C'mon, I dare you! And you can bet your prettythang I will be going over it with a find tooth comb and picking apart your hard work. Just so you know how it feels. With your 18 posts you must be an expert in how the things are run. Fool.....
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Squig, you want HTC involved? Here is some involvement.
The people who stage these events work hard to bring them to the community. We try to provide the tools they need to make all this happen.
You outrage is not appreciated, nor welcome. If you cannot accept the fact things happen in real life which will cause these things to happen, that is your problem. However, it is completely unacceptable for you to take it out on the people who do give thier time to run and stage these events.
Think before you hit the submit button. Being abusive to the people in this community will not solve a thing. Nothing. As such, there is no reason you can give for acting in the manner you are acting.
If you cannot discuss this in a civil manner, then I suggest you avoid posting.
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i have taken nothing out on the people in this community,i called one person a hack,thats all?you tellin me i cant speak my mind in here?ive tried to make some valid points in here about the problembs with tods and all anyone has to say is "owell,and the people behind the game work really hard"fine,dont like what i have to say then ill stop.im just not usually one to sit around and do nothing when something doesnt work.maybee thats what makes me a fool huh?
just answer me two things skuzzy.do you think tods is flawed in its setup,when one bad computer stops the whole event?
as squads do you feel we are worth your time to make it right?
hope that wasnt to abusive for ya.and yes,tere is a reason for me to be acting this way.im pissed off for wasteing my time for nothing,im not calling names,ive called no one a fool.im not abusive.i simply have opinions about how this is run.freedom of speach still exists doesnt it?i agree that you should not be goin off on someone in here in a derogatory manner,but i have not crossed the line of good taste.its just opinions
o.and kev,ya i thought you were someone else.
as for an appologie,i will apoologize to anyone who can tell me how i was abusive to them,i dont see it.i dont care that dace dropped the ball.i care that we have a system that allows one dropped ball to cancel the game,for those who missed it(reading comprehention is good)i salute all volunteers in this game.i am a volunteer as well and i know what we do.
and yes,i would love to run tods permanantly.
first thing i would do is get orders out by saturday and if squads didnt have orders ready by wednesday,i would do them for the side and not fly in it.
i would make it more stratagy based and bring the goons in.make it based more on tactics rater that a turky shoot.
for those who think i should just walk away if i dont like it,sorry,thats not the way i am.maybee your the type to take your ball and go home,but if i dont like the way the game is played,i try to fix it.if my suggestions are falling on def ears then i will stop trying to fix it and just enjoy the game as is.i do love the game and i thank htc for all thier hard work.its well worth my 15$ a month.i just know that if enough people ask for it they change it,yet tods is still the same and ive heard no plans of it being changed.
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Go for it squigg. Lets get an event written up. Historical planeset and terrain. I as a long time SquadOp player will settle for nothing but 100% accuracy.
You can use the format that the REAL CM's use. I used to write them and run them bro, so I know what kind of time and effort it takes. You seem to think you are better organized and have it all figured out so I guess 24 hours should be plenty of time to get something written up. Don't worry about planning each frame and the objectives just yet .. we'll pick apart the write-up, planeset, terrain and all that other fun stuff first.
Oh, and since you think having frame CO's is disorganized and poorly planned, I am curious as to how you are going to work out that aspect. Looking forward to it though.
I'll even start a thread for you.....
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A BIG thank you to all CM's, no matter what is said you guys do an outstanding job.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Go for it squigg. Lets get an event written up. Historical planeset and terrain. I as a long time SquadOp player will settle for nothing but 100% accuracy.
You don't really think FSO is 100% accurate do you? :lol
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sqwiglly,
I'm not sure what your problem is.
This weekly event is put on by volunteers who spend a lot of time so you can participate.
What exactly did it cost you? I see you complained about five hours of planning/preparation something... Why the hell should you spend "five hours" training for a two hour event? A couple practice runs would do.
This is a pre-registered "show up and fly what you are assigned" event.
Do your squaddies agree with your "rant"?
To keep this from happening again, are you willing to volunteer to be a part of the planning team?
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your absolutly right wind,i shoula just flew a couple of sorties instead of planning all the orders for the axis side in 2 days notice.
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
your absolutly right wind,i shoula just flew a couple of sorties instead of planning all the orders for the axis side in 2 days notice.
Ahh, see! There you go!
Now you are catching the spirit of the whole thing!
This is supposed to be fun!
When you have to piss, get outta the damn pool. Don't ruin it for the rest of us who are willing to keep swimming.
W~
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I'm not even sure where to start with this one.
I just have to say that we tried to hold this back a week! Then there would have been no Problem! This week and last week I am booked!!!!
Im Just miffed at the way the all went down. I know everyone that is in and part of TOD's works hard to make things go smooth. But this one didnt even hit the road!
I think Sqwig had a right to *****. And ~~FATE~~ did nothing wrong. We did our part.
I'm going to look the orders back over and see if anything needs to be changed.
I could go on and on about eveything that was said here but Im in this game and TOD's for fun! and don't think 20 more post like this will help anyone!
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Originally posted by sqwiglly
i know this is all volunteers and life happens,but thats my point.why are we paying for something run by us?if one guys bad computer can jack it up for all of us then something is wrong with the system.as squads we are the bread and butter for this company,i dont think its too much to ask that they put a paid employee to make shure this is done right.
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and explain something to one of my supreme squad commanders (sqwig) and hopefully save everyone a little frustration trying to explain it.
First of all, this is the first time I've read this thread and I'm just going to give the straight up.
Sqwig, if HTC had to pay for people to run these events the cost of the overhead would come directly out of the development and infrastructure that runs this game. You must understand that HTC is not a multi-national mega-corporation with endless resources.
In order to support an active community it is important to grow a volunteer force that will do the hard work for free. Are we also going to lose our minds when a volunteer skinner makes a mistake on a paintjob? I don't think so.
I realize you were frustrated with the cancellation on short notice and while you may not agree, I feel the explanation given was sufficient. Nobody would have had fun flying against an effectively unarmed opponent, and the people flying on the otherside would certainly not have enjoyed flying with no plan due to the failure of someone not even in their own squad.
Had the cancellation happened when another squad was running it I'm certain you wouldn't have been this ticked off but being part of a team means we rise and fall together... We accept the role of the leader and the planner and that means that we have to be prepared when the plan is cancelled. Yes, it sucks. And apparently it was the failure of one person... But that person was not the CM Team... It was the leader of the opposing team.
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Dace and CM's . reading the whole thread i was just going to shake my head and move on, but i felt that i should atleast thank the guys that give up their free time to set up FSO . Life happens , some people are just alittle too high strung . 38MAW