Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on July 03, 2005, 08:19:00 PM
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Taken at the Museum of Flight today. The Soviet answer was the Bear bomber I believe.
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/7109603/103099200.jpg)
Short synopsis of the Boeing B-47 (http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing/b47.html)
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My uncle flew those. More often he lived in an alert facility for days on end waiting on the word to strike the Soviet Union.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
My uncle flew those. More often he lived in an alert facility for days on end waiting on the word to strike the Soviet Union.
Very cool Ammo. I believe they were in service a short time, as the B-52 made them obsolete for distance. I wonder if any saw Reserve service?
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That looks like an RB-47, has that same enormous radome
under the nose that the New England Air Museum has.(http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/rb-47-ton.jpg)
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That I am unsure of. He talked of the endless boredome during those years or waiting around in a bunker. He said the food was good, as was the poker games. That AC must be a static display, or does it actually fly?
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Originally posted by -ammo-
That I am unsure of. He talked of the endless boredome during those years or waiting around in a bunker. He said the food was good, as was the poker games. That AC must be a static display, or does it actually fly?
With fuel prices the way they are, I don't think it'd fly even
if the Air Force let em ;)
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Originally posted by Rino
With fuel prices the way they are, I don't think it'd fly even
if the Air Force let em ;)
LOL, yep. I paid $1.99 last week, and felt lucky!
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Originally posted by -ammo-
That I am unsure of. He talked of the endless boredome during those years or waiting around in a bunker. He said the food was good, as was the poker games. That AC must be a static display, or does it actually fly?
Static, this bird sat out gathering rust in the parking lot across the street from the MOF, they finally gave her a coat of paint and dragged it onto the MOF property.
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Did it have a "regular" cockpit, or was there some little room you cannot see with a toilet in it below?
Did they enter the cockpit from a hatch under the AC or did they climb in the "normal" way?
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teleporter. had it since roswell.
(crew of three in a pressurized forward compartment: a pilot and copilot in a long fighter-style bubble canopy, and a navigator in a compartment in the nose. The copilot doubled as tail gunner, and the navigator as bombardier. The bubble canopy could pitch up and slide backward, but as the cockpit was high off the ground, crew entrance was through a door and ladder on the underside of the nose)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Did it have a "regular" cockpit, or was there some little room you cannot see with a toilet in it below?
Did they enter the cockpit from a hatch under the AC or did they climb in the "normal" way?
Two seater front to back. Access from below (Made it tough for escaping the plane if you were going in) NOt sure about the toilet. Tex Johnston was the first test pilot, known more for his barrel roll of a 707 over Lake Washington. It was so underpowered with a load that they had to use JATO assistance to get her off the ground.
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Originally posted by Rino
That looks like an RB-47, has that same enormous radome
under the nose that the New England Air Museum has.(http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/rb-47-ton.jpg)
All B-47s had the large radome under the cockpit.
B-47E
(http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/b47/b47mcconnell.jpg)
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FWIW, the model I have pictured is a WB-47E Stratojet
The B-47 is the world's first large multi-engine swept-wing airplane but I'm sure Borodo will have issues with this statement. :) Here are all the configurations listed:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-47-prob.htm
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(http://www.sklej.pl/layout/images/products/400/04337.jpg)
The King. Master and Progenator of Fear in the Kremlin.
The B-58 Supersonic Penetrator. Fastest, with the Mostest.
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(http://www.coldwar.org/pictures/reconaisance_pictures/RB47-4287.jpg)
That's an RB-47.
Note the pods amidships and aft on the lower part of the fueselage.
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Originally posted by Toad
(http://www.coldwar.org/pictures/reconaisance_pictures/RB47-4287.jpg)
That's an RB-47.
Note the pods amidships and aft on the lower part of the fueselage.
There are about 1/2 dozen teens saying to themselves "They had I-Pods then??"
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"E" pods, I think, for Elint.
"O" pods for Optint.
"S" pods for Sigint.
;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Taken at the Museum of Flight today. The Soviet answer was the Bear bomber I believe.
AFAIK the answer to B-47 was a Tu-16. Oh, sorry - the real answer was a MiG-15 ;)
Interesting, I have read a large article about B-47 a few days ago. The story of choosing the engine position is interesting - how some solutions that now look obvious were so hard to find.
Another thing that surprised me was that it was produced until 1956, and built by Boeing, MD and Lockheed.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Did it have a "regular" cockpit, or was there some little room you cannot see with a toilet in it below?
Did they enter the cockpit from a hatch under the AC or did they climb in the "normal" way?
Nils, have you never seen "Strategic Air Command" with Jimmy Stewart? If not check it out. Some good interior mock-up shots of a B-47 and great inflight exteriors.
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Originally posted by Boroda
AFAIK the answer to B-47 was a Tu-16. Oh, sorry - the real answer was a MiG-15 ;)
Ah yes, the MiG-15, the design lacked one essential component...a reliable engine. This problem was resolved when the British government authorized the Rolls-Royce company to export their Nene turbojet engine to Russia. As soon as the Russian Klimov design bureau received the engines, they immediately developed their own copy of the Nene, called the Klimov RD-45. At least the airframe was somewhat "Soviet original" and not copied like most of their inventory. ;)
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Kurt Tank would disagree. ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ah yes, the MiG-15, the design lacked one essential component...a reliable engine. This problem was resolved when the British government authorized the Rolls-Royce company to export their Nene turbojet engine to Russia. As soon as the Russian Klimov design bureau received the engines, they immediately developed their own copy of the Nene, called the Klimov RD-45. At least the airframe was somewhat "Soviet original" and not copied like most of their inventory. ;)
RD-45 = copy of a Nene. VK-1 = further development used on MiG-15bis.
Rip, it's well-known that Boeing used German data on swept wings designing B-47, so what?...
Korean war showed that MiG-15, using an outdated licensed engine and assembled in Soviet factories that gave up to 15cm difference in geometry between left and right wings, could literally wipe out B-29/B-50 formations out of the sky. RB-47s were routinely intercepted as well. Even piloted by Soviet volunteers who lived in inhuman conditions, having to stay on "alert number one" for days, losing consciousness in cockpits, being signed off duty for physicall and nervous exaustion, opposing the whole "united nations" airforce with 3 regiments sometimes having less then 120 interceptors ready for combat - 64th IAK's MiGs were an effective weapon.
I sound like "Pravda" or "Red Star", don't I? ;)
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Yup.
;)
Mig-15 was an amazing weapon... superior to the F-86 Sabre in climb and turn performance, had a higher service ceiling, was better armed and had virtually the same speed as the Sabres.
And you had more of them in Southern China than we had Sabres in Korea... and you enjoyed strategic air superiority for the first year of the conflict thanks to the fact we had no Sabres at all at first.
So, why'd you lose?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup.
;)
Mig-15 was an amazing weapon... superior to the F-86 Sabre in climb and turn performance, had a higher service ceiling, was better armed and had virtually the same speed as the Sabres.
And you had more of them in Southern China than we had Sabres in Korea... and you enjoyed strategic air superiority for the first year of the conflict thanks to the fact we had no Sabres at all at first.
So, why'd you lose?
:rofl
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup.
;)
Mig-15 was an amazing weapon... superior to the F-86 Sabre in climb and turn performance, had a higher service ceiling, was better armed and had virtually the same speed as the Sabres.
And you had more of them in Southern China than we had Sabres in Korea... and you enjoyed strategic air superiority for the first year of the conflict thanks to the fact we had no Sabres at all at first.
So, why'd you lose?
The Koreans suck and it was too hot for the Russians.
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See Rule #5
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The Soviets also sent their pilots to fly for the Koreans, Chinese. They are called the 'Honchos'
The pilots are forced to speak Chinese or Korean during flight because the ground ctrlers know that US/UN can pick up their transmissions.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup.
So, why'd you lose?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a 'cease fire' in Korea? Seems to me aint nobody won yet ....
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Originally posted by skernsk
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a 'cease fire' in Korea? Seems to me aint nobody won yet ....
Your not wrong at all.
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Oh yeah, the Mig-15, had taken a pic of it too on Sunday.
(http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/7068961/103275588.jpg)
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Whenever I see a mig 15 I think of the computer-generated foe in Falcon 3.0. That was one tough rascal to dogfight with in a F-16.
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"used German data on swept wings designing B-47"
BzzZZzzt!
The Germans stole Douglas swept wing data and Kurt Tank was a plagerist!
(http://adcmeeting.free.fr/meeting2004/plateau/avions_civils/c47/vues_c47.jpg)
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Like Ammo, I had an Uncle that flew the B-47. He flew B-24's during the War, and then got a nice job at Getty Oil as their Corporate pilot. He had stayed in the Reserves for the extra pay, and got called to Active duty into SAC to fly the B-47. He also commented on the long Alert duties, and flying over Alaska and near the Pole, stuff like that.
Getty held his job for him, so he was lucky in that sense, after he got out of SAC.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a 'cease fire' in Korea? Seems to me aint nobody won yet ....
Lessee.. North Korea invades South Korea backed by China and USSR. US/UN moves to repel invaders, North drives defenders to very southern end of the peninsula. Then Mac's landings at Inchon cut NK supplylines, NK's pushed back to the Yalu. The Chinese join in.. with over a million troops. US/UN pushed back to the original border.
You could call it a stalemate... looks to me like the US/UN won. Borders are the same as pre-invasion. The side who's goals were thwarted is the North's.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Lessee.. North Korea invades South Korea backed by China and USSR. US/UN moves to repel invaders, North drives defenders to very southern end of the peninsula. Then Mac's landings at Inchon cut NK supplylines, NK's pushed back to the Yalu. The Chinese join in.. with over a million troops. US/UN pushed back to the original border.
You could call it a stalemate... looks to me like the US/UN won. Borders are the same as pre-invasion. The side who's goals were thwarted is the North's.
Well, who attacked who in 1950 is still a question. USSR was strongly against starting a war against South Korea, and it's a fact. Stalin warned Kim Ir Sen that he'll get no support from USSR if he'll start a war. I see no surprise if some SK looneys started a provocation to get American occupation troops involved: they knew that there were no Soviet units in DPRK.
All I can say is that Korean war was a dirty provocation from "blue" side. Fortunately the same policy in Germany didn't end in a hot war.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Every time it got too hot for the Russkie MiG pilots they ran for the Yalu, where the UN pilots could not follow, like a dog with its tail between its legs.
It's funny how Western history is distorted.
"UN" fighters vulched airfields in China, across Amnokkan (Yalu-Tszian) river, so running away to China was pretty useless. And it were American pilots who prefered to run away diving when they couldn't maintain a 2:1 numerical superiority: Soviet fighters were not allowed to follow them across the front-line or sea.
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Originally posted by Westy
"used German data on swept wings designing B-47"
BzzZZzzt!
The Germans stole Douglas swept wing data and Kurt Tank was a plagerist!
DC-3 was a trans-sonic aircraft?! LOL! :rofl
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It's funny how Russian History is distorted.
Timeline:
Aug 8, 1945 120,000 Russian troops invaded Manchuria and Korea
Sept 9, 1945 US accepts Japanese surrender in Korea, South of 38th parallel
Nov 14, 1947 U.N. Resolution to remove troops from Korea after national elections.
Feb 8, 1948 North Korean People's Army (NK) officially activated
April 8, 1948 President Truman orders withdrawal of US troops from Korea
Aug 15, 1948 The Republic of Korea was proclaimed. Syngman Rhee was elected first president, (by a legislature formed by popular elections conducted in May).
Sept 9, 1948 Democratic People's Republic of Korea claims jurisdiction over all Korea
June 29, 1949 Last US troops leave South Korea
Korean Military Advisory Group (KMAG, 200 men) formed
January 12, 1950 Truman's Secretary of State Dean Acheson confirms Korea and Taiwan are outside American Far East security cordon
June 1 NK strength at 135,000, with seven assault divisions and 150 russian T34 tanks
June 25 Korean time NK invades Republic of South Korea (ROK) without warning
June 25 New York time UN Security Council demands NK stop its attack and return to its borders
Boroda, please explain why NK invaded SK.. what provocations this lil country without armor or heavy weapons employed that would 'provoke' NK with it's 7 assault divisons into an invasion?
The Russian Version would be fine.. we can laugh at that too.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Boroda, please explain why NK invaded SK.. what provocations this lil country without armor or heavy weapons employed that would 'provoke' NK with it's 7 assault divisons into an invasion?
First: it's a surprise for me that there were no American troops in SK in 1950. Maybe we interpret some things in different ways? AFAIR there were several American divisions in SK when the war began.
There was absolutely no reason for DPRK to attack first. They were warned many times that they'll get no assistance, I repeat - NO aid from USSR in case they'll start a war.
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Wrong, there is not reason that you can think of.
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Originally posted by Boroda
First: it's a surprise for me that there were no American troops in SK in 1950. Maybe we interpret some things in different ways? AFAIR there were several American divisions in SK when the war began.
There was absolutely no reason for DPRK to attack first. They were warned many times that they'll get no assistance, I repeat - NO aid from USSR in case they'll start a war.
Pavel, my friend.. if there was no reason for DPRK to attack first.. then why did they?
And once it started, why did USSR continue support?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Pavel, my friend.. if there was no reason for DPRK to attack first.. then why did they?
And once it started, why did USSR continue support?
First: according to official version it was SK troops that attacked first. Anyway - it's not a proven fact that DPRK started a war.
USSR only sent advisors, and an anti-aircraft corps to China. Main aid went from China, not USSR.
Moscow did it's best to prevent that war, but it didn't mean we had to abandon Korea to yankees. Anyway, Kim Ir Sen did quite well without assistance until "UN" landing in Chemulpo.
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Your 'offical version' is incorrect.
From BBC, June 25, 1950
1950: UN condemns North Korean invasion
North Korea has invaded South Korea at several points along the two countries' joint border.
The United Nations Security Council (UNSC) has denounced North Korea's actions as a breach of the peace and has called for an immediate ceasefire.
The United States President Harry S Truman has gone a step further and urged western nations to go out to Korea and help repel the communist invasion.
"By their actions in Korea, communist leaders have demonstrated their contempt for the basic moral principles on which the United Nations is founded," he said.
Surprise attack
The invasion took the international community by surprise, even though the American Economic Co-operation Administration has its biggest mission - about 2,000 staff - in South Korea.
The seven-power commission of the United Nations in Korea (Uncok) confirmed North Korean troops crossed the border - known as the 38th parallel - in 11 places after artillery bombardments were reported in South Korea at 0400 local time.
Uncok has identified northern forces in the Ongjin peninsula and the western towns of Kaesong and Chunchon and landings on the east coast around Skagnung, almost 40 miles from the border.
Their statement also contained details of machine-gun attacks by four 'Yak' aircraft on military and civilian airfields outside the South Korean capital Seoul, destroying aircraft and jeeps and setting fire to petrol tanks.
President Syngman Rhee of South Korea - who denied early rumours of war - told Uncok at least 36 North Korean tanks and armoured cars had been counted on their way to Seoul by the shortest routes.
The North Korean wireless station, in the capital Pyongyang, justified the invasion saying communist forces were counter-attacking against border incursions by the South Koreans in the early hours of the morning and reported a state of war shortly after noon local time.
After an emergency meeting with his cabinet South Korea's foreign minister Ben Limb urged the people of the republic to resist the "dastardly attack".
The UN Security Council met at Lake Success, Detroit after the Korean Ambassador John Myung Changan sent an urgent petition to the State Department in Washington.
Korea has been divided since the Japanese withdrawal at the end of World War II left the USSR occupying the area north of the 38th parallel and the US to the south.
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It was a pre-planed invasion.. against a country that had NOT provoked it's attacker. There remains NO justification for an invasion of the South other than communist expansion. Regardless of Stalin's cautions to the North, they attacked anyway. Stalin, deciding that a candestine support program was called for, supported Mao, supplied China and gave 'em the materials, jets and tanks necessary to sustain the attack and later assisted in launching the second Chinese support campaign after North Korea had been defeated in detail following the Inchon landings.
Pavel.. really. For shame. "USSR only sent advisors, and an anti-aircraft corps to China. Main aid went from China, not USSR."
Your 'advisors' flew Migs... against US Pilots. USSR was instrumental in supplying China with tanks, planes, guns, supplies expressly for Korean Conflict... a conflict destined to set the tone for US/USSR confrontations around the world for the next 50 years. You deny this?
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Hang, for me - Soviet aid is justified simply because we sent volunteer fighter pilots there, who stopped your "US pilots" who were there to destroy the whole country. Main target were powerstation levees on Amnokkan river, Soviet pilots saved them.
There was a story about 64th IAK pilots visiting a captured B-29 crew in Singisyu, and Americans started to complain about being held in a basement in "inhuman conditions". The answer was quick and simple: "You destroyed a prison yoursef".
We helped with defensive measures.
Also please remember why UN passed a resolution allowing Americans to invade. Chinese representative was not allowed to attend a Security Council meeting. Damn! That's how wars start... Oh, sorry, noone cares about UN any more, aggressors sit in the SC and noone complains... :(
From what you quoted above - it's obvious that DPRK counter-attacked. At least for me. ;)
Also look at the timeline you posted above. US occupational administration was the first to declare RoK and start a staged "elections", just as they did in Germany. Sorry, we were always reacting on your activities. That's probably why we lost the Cold War.
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Some beautiful planes here.. let me add a couple
Vulcan
(http://www.tim-beach.com/vulcan2.gif)
(http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafwaddington/images/museum/vulcan/xm657.jpg)
Victor
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/SteelOnTarget/SteelStuff/HandleyPageVictor.jpg)
Lightning
(http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/Images/Glightning.jpg)
(http://www.thundercity.com/PLANES/IMAGES/Lightning%20Vapour.jpg)
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Originally posted by Boroda
First: according to official version it was SK troops that attacked first. Anyway - it's not a proven fact that DPRK started a war.
Is that the Soviet official version?
........
It is hard to get a 2:1 ratio when there was on average only ~100 Sabres(fighters) in Korea at any one time.
Soviet Air Order of Battle - Korea 1950-53
Courtesy of CW2 Stephen L. Sewell
64th Independent Fighter Aviation Corps -- GEN-LT I. V. Belov (Nov 1950 - Oct 1951)
GEN- LT G. Lobov (Oct 1951 - Oct 1952)
GEN-LT S.V. Slyusarev) (Nov 52 - Dec 54)
32nd Fighter Aviation Division (COL G. Grokhovetskii) (Sep 52 - Jul 53)
224th Fighter Aviation Regiment (?)
535th Fighter Aviation Regiment (? M. Muryaev)
913th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC V. Marchenko)
37th Fighter Aviation Division (COL A.I. Khalutin) (Jul 53 - end)
236th Fighter Aviation Regiment
282nd Fighter Aviation Regiment
940th Fighter Aviation Regiment
97th Fighter Aviation Division (COL A. Shevtsov) (Jan 52 - Jul 53)
16th Fighter Aviation Regiment
148th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment
100th Fighter Aviation Division (Jul 53 - end)
9th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment
731st Fighter Aviation Regiment
735th Fighter Aviation Regiment
133rd PVO Fighter Aviation Division (COL Komarov) (May 52 -Jul 53)
147th Guards Special Purpose Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC M. Studilin)
415th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Shevelyev)
726th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Chizh)
578th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Naval Aviation) (attached)
190th Fighter Aviation Division (COL Kornilov) (Feb 52 - Jul 53)
256th Fighter Aviation Regiment
494th Fighter Aviation Regiment
821st Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC G.F. Dmitryuk)
216th PVO Fighter Aviation Division (COL B. Yeremin) (Feb 52 - Jul 53)
518th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Dobrov)
676th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC I. Gorbunov)
878th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Dronov)
781st Fighter Aviation Regiment (Naval Aviation)(attached)
303rd Fighter Aviation Division (GEN-MAJ G. Lobov/GEN- MAJ A.Kumanichkin) (Aug 51 - Dec 51)
17th Fighter Aviation Regiment (MAJ G.I.. Pulov)
18th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Belostotskiy)
523rd Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Karasev)
324th Fighter Aviation Division (COL I.N. Kozhedub) (Apr 51 - Feb 52)
176th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC S.F. Vishnyakov)
196th Fighter Aviation Regiment (COL Ye. Pepelyaev)
351st Independent Fighter Aviation Regiment (Night) (LTC I. Yefimov) (Jul 51 - Feb 53)
298th Independent Fighter Aviation Regiment (Night) (LTC Vasil'yev) (Feb 53 - Jul 53)
Non-Flying Elements of the 64th IAK In Korea 1950-1953
28th Antiaircraft Artillery Division (COL Angelov) (Jan 53 - End)
503rd Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Kletsko)
505th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC N.F. Shandryuk)
507th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Samoilov)
35th Antiaircraft Artillery Division (Jan 53 - End)
508th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
513th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
87th Antiaircraft Artillery Division (COL A.I. Varlygo) (Mar 51 - Jan 53)
151st Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Bystrov)
1777th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Medyantsev)
92nd Antiaircraft Artillery Division (Mar 51 - Jan 53)
666th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
667th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
16th Aviation Technical Services Division (COL V.S. Zaitsev) (Jul 53 - Dec 54)
180th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
277th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
838th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
854th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
859th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
18th Aviation Technical Services Division (COL M.P. Mironovich) (Jun 51 - Jul 53)
10th Independent Searchlight Artillery Regiment (COL Ye.A. Belenko) (Mar 51 - Jan 53)
20th Independent Searchlight Artillery Regiment (Jan 53 - Dec 54)
65th ODRSO
61st Independent Antiaircraft Illumination Company
1406th Hospital for Infectious Diseases (COL A. Gorelik)
8th Mobile Field Hospital
534th Radiographic Department
70th Independent Decontamination Platoon
99th Independent Decontamination Platoon
18th Plague Prevention Detachment
357th Medical Epidemic Laboratory
81st Independent Communications Company (Nov 1950 - Apr 1953)
727th Independent Communications Battalion (Apr 1953 - Dec 1954)
133rd Independent Radio Technical Battalion (Apr 1953 - Dec 1954)
61st Independent Radio Technical Company (Radio Navigation) (Apr 1953 - Dec 1954)
114th Radio Technical Regiment (OSNAZ) Special Task Force
Supporting Soviet Air Order of Battle - Korea
(Units supporting the 64th Independent Fighter Aviation Corps - November 1950 - March 1951)
Commanding General (Aviation) Far East Military District = GEN-LT S. Krasovskiy - to Fall 1951
83rd Independent Fighter Aviation Corps (PVO) (Laodung Peninsula)
(GEN-LT Rykachev - Fall 1951 to July 1953)
28th Fighter Aviation Division (COL A.V. Aleyukhin) (Nov 50 - Feb 51)
67th Fighter Aviation Regiment
139th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (COL Keleninikov)
153rd Fighter Aviation Division
351st Fighter Aviation Regiment (transferred to the 64th IAK - June 1951)
55th Independent Fighter Aviation Corps (PVO) (Maj-.Gen P.F. Batyskiy) (Primors'kye Military Region)
149th Fighter Aviation Division
3rd Fighter Aviation Regiment
18th Fighter Aviation Regiment
582md Fighter Aviation Regiment
67th Fighter Aviation Corps (Far East Military District)
Moscow Miltary District Units Transferred to the Far East for Immediate Support
50th Fighter Aviation Division (LTC A.V. Pashkevich) (Dec 50 - Feb 51)
29th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (Guards Major D.V. Virich)
177th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Teren'yev)
7th Air Regiment (PLAAF) (attached)
151st Guards Fighter Aviation Division (COL Sapozhnikov) (Nov 50 - Feb 51)
28th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment
72nd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment
Soviet formations were made up of Para (element) of two aircraft; two Pary made a Zveno (flight); two to three Zvena made an Eskadra (squadron). Three Eskadry made a Polk (Regiment), two to three Polki a Diviziya (division), and two or more Divisii, a Korpus or Corps. Combat was normally fought by two or three Pary in a group; squadrons would also cross attach Zvena when needed.
This only applied to the forces in Korea, as elsewhere the normal number was three flights per squadron and three regiments per division. Thus in Korea a division could, and did, often consist of as few as 48 aircraft rather than the 108 found elsewhere.
The AA divisions had a variety of weapons. The 87th had 59 85mm guns and 56 37mm weapons; the 92nd had 96 85mm and 84 37mm guns. The units at that time appear to have been organized into four gun batteries and twelve gun battalions. The 87th was probably understrength.
The searchlight regiments each had 36 projectors, organized as per the weapons in four projector batteries and twelve projector battalions.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Also please remember why UN passed a resolution allowing Americans to invade. Chinese representative was not allowed to attend a Security Council meeting. Damn! That's how wars start... Oh, sorry, noone cares about UN any more, aggressors sit in the SC and noone complains... :(
More of your Soviet version of history???
The western powers gained a United Nations mandate for action because the Soviets were boycotting the Security Council over the admission of Mongolia to the UN while the (Nationalist controlled) Republic of China held the Chinese seat — the Republic of China refused to acknowledge the independence of Mongolia, and thus blocked its entry into the UN. Without the Soviet veto and with only Yugoslavia abstaining, the UN voted to aid South Korea.
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Ripsnort;
RB47's flew pre and post strike photo missions in veit nam. will try and find a pic of one at da nang in 1970.
JT
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
More of your Soviet version of history???
The western powers gained a United Nations mandate for action because the Soviets were boycotting the Security Council over the admission of Mongolia to the UN while the (Nationalist controlled) Republic of China held the Chinese seat — the Republic of China refused to acknowledge the independence of Mongolia, and thus blocked its entry into the UN. Without the Soviet veto and with only Yugoslavia abstaining, the UN voted to aid South Korea.
Of course! This is Boroda we're speaking of! He'd have made a great propoganda minister until the old regrime! Thats a compliment, Boroda.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Lessee.. North Korea invades South Korea backed by China and USSR. US/UN moves to repel invaders, North drives defenders to very southern end of the peninsula. Then Mac's landings at Inchon cut NK supplylines, NK's pushed back to the Yalu. The Chinese join in.. with over a million troops. US/UN pushed back to the original border.
You could call it a stalemate... looks to me like the US/UN won. Borders are the same as pre-invasion. The side who's goals were thwarted is the North's.
Hang, what you are saying is that you won the battle, but I'm sorry, aint nobody won that war.
It is interesting to see history from both sides. You guys should just stop now, it is like trying to convince an athiest there is a god.:D
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Originally posted by skernsk
Hang, what you are saying is that you won the battle, but I'm sorry, aint nobody won that war.
It is interesting to see history from both sides. You guys should just stop now, it is like trying to convince an athiest there is a god.:D
If North Korea won.. why ain't they in Seoul? Why is South Korea, if they (we) lost still a democracy? Enh?
And there is too a God. He's you, and me, and that rock over there...
;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
If North Korea won.. why ain't they in Seoul? Why is South Korea, if they (we) lost still a democracy? Enh?
;)
Did the North Surrender? Show me the documents. I'll agree that the North pushed South into S.K. The North after initial success was pushed back after some heavy fighting. And the 'battle' was won.
To find a peaceful solution to the conflict I assume a ceasefire was agreed upon. I have to admit my ignorance Mr. Hang as I don't know 100% of the reason why they did not go for the jugular.
Was it because WW2 was still fresh in the minds of America and the politians did not want to risk losing the Presidency? Was there a change in office during the Korean war? Didn't they ****can MacArthur just after the NK's started to retreat?
But I assume that you know the Korean conflict isn't 'Officially' over. And therefor I cannot give you the 'W' for that one.
'Alright, we'll call it a draw'
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Originally posted by skernsk
Did the North Surrender? Show me the documents. I'll agree that the North pushed South into S.K. The North after initial success was pushed back after some heavy fighting. And the 'battle' was won.
To find a peaceful solution to the conflict I assume a ceasefire was agreed upon. I have to admit my ignorance Mr. Hang as I don't know 100% of the reason why they did not go for the jugular.
Was it because WW2 was still fresh in the minds of America and the politians did not want to risk losing the Presidency? Was there a change in office during the Korean war? Didn't they ****can MacArthur just after the NK's started to retreat?
But I assume that you know the Korean conflict isn't 'Officially' over. And therefor I cannot give you the 'W' for that one.
'Alright, we'll call it a draw'
LOL.. ok, ok, I give!
Regarding the reason we didn't 'go for the 'jugular'.. we already had NK subdued & occupied when the Chinese crossed the Yalu to get us the hell off their border. MacArthur wanted China dealt with right then and there and asked for the keys to the Nuclear Arsenal.
Truman, knowing that the muscle behind China was the USSR (at that time) correctly forbade Mac's smacking the Chinese (in China) with either nukes or conventional weapons, which is why the war was not prosecuted to a normal conclusion. Had Mac used any weapons north of the Yalu to stem 'the yellow hordes' crossing the border, we'd have had to roll to Moscow via Peking to put an end to it... and most of the terrain in between would still be glowing.. along with a few US cities.
*sigh*
Mighta been worth it. Boroda would be just a Ukranian. ;)
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We should have rearmed the Germans and marched east until we cleaned out everything from the aleutians to the south china sea. Churchill was the only major power leader of the day that had it right. Roosevelt locked us into a cold war through treaties with the criminal stalin. Sadly too many people forgot about the cold war within days of the fall of the Berlin wall. We still have the Totalitarian regime in place in communist china that we trade with daily... makes no sense especially since they continue to harass and threaten free China who has been a staunch ally from the very beginning. They say a stitch in time saves 9.... we should have made a few extra stitches on that wound when we closed it up!
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See Rule #4
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Is that the Soviet official version?
It was. Now I don't know a new version that, as most of our new inventions in historical science, has to comply with the popular Western thesis that Russians are evil bloothirsty savages.
Originally posted by MiloMorai
It is hard to get a 2:1 ratio when there was on average only ~100 Sabres(fighters) in Korea at any one time.
LOL! They rotated units from Japan and other bases.
And 64th IAK had only MiG-15s, while "UN" had thousands of jet fighters, bombers and attack planes.
2:1 ratio between Sabres and MiGs is believable, but mostly when freshly-rotated Soviet regiments encountered them for the first times, especially the second "shift", that initially flew MiG-15prim, because first "shift" left their MiG-15bis to PLAC airforce.
American "official" kill records are an utter bull****. Sabres killed more MiGs then USSR ever delivered to Korea :D
Also - you have a beautiful practice in concealing losses. To understand it - please, compare your "combat losses" in Korea to a number of rescue helicopter missions. You'll be surprised :D
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Soviet Air Order of Battle - Korea 1950-53
Skipped an impressive list of units.
You have to understand that every group of units spent 6-9 months on front-line, sometimes having only three regiments with half of flight personell and machines. At the worst time about 100 MiGs were operational. As I posted above - sometimes medics withdrew pilots from active flights because of nervous and physical exaustion. For 6-9 months Soviet units had to fight without getting replacements.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
My uncle flew those. More often he lived in an alert facility for days on end waiting on the word to strike the Soviet Union.
How does he like current situation ?
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Originally posted by Boroda
First: according to official version it was SK troops that attacked first. Anyway - it's not a proven fact that DPRK started a war.
USSR only sent advisors, and an anti-aircraft corps to China. Main aid went from China, not USSR.
That remind me German/Polish probem.
Germany wanted to start war with polish but they had no proper excuse for their people. So german soldiers toke polish uniforms and attacked german boarder post on Polish/Czech boarder.
So germany were officialy attacked by poland and people of germany didnt have problem with idea of "liberating poland from evil jews"
as easy as 9/11 :D
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Originally posted by lada
That remind me German/Polish probem.
Germany wanted to start war with polish but they had no proper excuse for their people. So german soldiers toke polish uniforms and attacked german boarder post on Polish/Czech boarder.
So germany were officialy attacked by poland and people of germany didnt have problem with idea of "liberating poland from evil jews"
as easy as 9/11 :D
Lada, the situation in Korea was quite different, as far as I understand it.
Look: in 1948 US occupational forces stage "democratic elections" in SK, instead of withdrawing together with Soviet troops and leaving Korea as allies did in Austria. A puppet government is installed in the South. Declared RoK claims authority over the whole Korea. As an answer to this provocation DPRK is declared.
After multiple provocations something happens and DPRK troops crash Southern defence counter-attacking and violating Soviet recommendations to avoid hostilities at all costs. SK leaders probably relied on Western assistance, while Kim Ir Sen was warned that he'll not get any direct aid from USSR.
As for sending Soviet air-defence units to Korean border - I think it can be justified by American attacks on Soviet objects in Far East, like an attack on Sukhaya Rechka airfield in summer 1950.
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This one was quite good.
(http://www.binbrook.demon.co.uk/images/xs458_2_dy.jpg)
Not bad either
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/jaguar/jaguar-9.jpg)
A classic
(http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/aviones/harrier.jpg)
We used to get buzzed by these as kids living near Wattisham in Suffolk
(http://www.f4phantoms.co.uk/pics/23sqn.jpg)
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Originally posted by Boroda
It was. Now I don't know a new version that, as most of our new inventions in historical science, has to comply with the popular Western thesis that Russians are evil bloothirsty savages.
You finally get to see the truth, unlike the lies you were told before.:)
LOL! They rotated units from Japan and other bases.
Sabre fighter units in Korea:
4thFIW > 334thFIS, 335thFIS, 336thFIS
51stFIW > 16thFIS, 25thFIS, 39thFIS, 319thFIS
And 64th IAK had only MiG-15s, while "UN" had thousands of jet fighters, bombers and attack planes.
Nice of you forget about Chinese MiGs.
2:1 ratio between Sabres and MiGs is believable, but mostly when freshly-rotated Soviet regiments encountered them for the first times, especially the second "shift", that initially flew MiG-15prim, because first "shift" left their MiG-15bis to PLAC airforce.
American "official" kill records are an utter bull****. Sabres killed more MiGs then USSR ever delivered to Korea :D
Not as bad as the Communist claims of Sabre kills; more than what had been produced up to that time. :eek: In fact only, 79 Sabres were lost to MiGs.
Also - you have a beautiful practice in concealing losses. To understand it - please, compare your "combat losses" in Korea to a number of rescue helicopter missions. You'll be surprised :D
No doubt you will skip this as well, http://www.korean-war.com/AirChronology.html
Near the bottom,
"1. 64th IAK Strength: six fighter aviation divisions, one night fighter regiment (400-450 MiGs)
2. 72,000 Soviets rotated through the Korean theater over the course of the war
3. PLAAF Strength: nine fighter corps (430-500 MiGs), two bomber corps (54 Tu-2)
4. 800 pilots and 59,700 ground support personnel served to support the air actions in the Korean theater (ten fighter corps with 21 air divisions, two bomber regiments),
5. KPAFAC Stength: approximately 125 MiGs, unknown Po-2, Yak-11, Yak-18, La-11"
You have to understand that every group of units spent 6-9 months on front-line, sometimes having only three regiments with half of flight personell and machines. At the worst time about 100 MiGs were operational. As I posted above - sometimes medics withdrew pilots from active flights because of nervous and physical exaustion. For 6-9 months Soviet units had to fight without getting replacements.
UN pilots did not spend the whole 3 years in Korea either.
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"1. 64th IAK Strength: six fighter aviation divisions, one night fighter regiment (400-450 MiGs)
Ok, first... let's call it disinformation. IAK means "Istrebitelniy AviaKorpus", "Fighter Air Corps". Six divisions is 3 times more then a corps should have. Normally it consisted of two fighter divisions, 3-4 regiments.
Again, one little thing dropped from real data - and what we get is another propaganda lie. :( This methods are boring. Nothing new on Earth :(
2. 72,000 Soviets rotated through the Korean theater over the course of the war
Maybe true, maybe not, I don't know.
3. PLAAF Strength: nine fighter corps (430-500 MiGs), two bomber corps (54 Tu-2)
MiGs include MiG-9s shipped since 1949-50, not only modern MiG-15s.
Chinese had severe problems with training, skills and pilots phisical conditions (they were simply underfed). Soviet pilots considered them more of a problem then assistance, they had to save them many times.
4. 800 pilots and 59,700 ground support personnel served to support the air actions in the Korean theater (ten fighter corps with 21 air divisions, two bomber regiments),
800 pilots in 21 air divisions and 2 bomber regiments?... On what side, under who's flag?
5. KPAFAC Stength: approximately 125 MiGs, unknown Po-2, Yak-11, Yak-18, La-11"
What is KPFAAC? North Korean airforce? Yak-11s and Yak-18s are definetly a horrible devastating force! They were probably cheaper then ammo and fuel nessesary to shoot them down :D
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Ok, Boroda; lets sum up..
The Mig 15 was a superior weapon. The Migs, piloted by just a handfull of peaceful advisors stemmed the flow of UN agression and established a 2 to 1 kill ratio over the thousands of sabers flown by yankee air pirates. The Russians were the good guys and didn't start any trouble.. in fact they tried desperately to avoid any confrontation in the far east. South Korea started the Korean war, and the USSR only did what it had to in order to prevent the evil south with it's hundreds of marauding jeeps & secret trucks covered by m1 rifles from over-running the 7 russian equipped tank armor divisons massed on the border..
this pretty much cover it?
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Heh, Hang if you look at it from a distance without the red star or stars and stripes you are both saying the same thing. Just replace US and South with Russia and North and it makes no difference.
Boroda is Russian and grew up with his politics, way of life and has alot of pride in his country. You grew up with your views and ***** red white and blue turds and are proud to be American. Niether one of you can ever convince the other, but carry on as my Molson Canadian supply is endless and it is re-run season.
When you get tired of the Korean conflict lets move on to the Vietman one. I know you have a few choice words for Boroda on that one.
:aok
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Originally posted by lada
How does he like current situation ?
He has been dead for 5 years
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Ok, Boroda; lets sum up..
The Mig 15 was a superior weapon. The Migs, piloted by just a handfull of peaceful advisors stemmed the flow of UN agression and established a 2 to 1 kill ratio over the thousands of sabers flown by yankee air pirates. The Russians were the good guys and didn't start any trouble.. in fact they tried desperately to avoid any confrontation in the far east. South Korea started the Korean war, and the USSR only did what it had to in order to prevent the evil south with it's hundreds of marauding jeeps & secret trucks covered by m1 rifles from over-running the 7 russian equipped tank armor divisons massed on the border..
this pretty much cover it?
I agree in some things, but, as usual, not completely ;)
MiG-15 wasn't superior to F-86. It was superior to F-80, F-84 and other pre-Sabre designs. Compared to Sabre it lacked horisontal maneurability, dive speed and rudder performance. Eugeniy Pepelyaev lost his wingman because he started a turn-fight with an F-86, relying on intelligence data that said he can outturn Sabre over 10000m.
Soviet pilots were not "peacefull advisors", they were angry, aggressive volunteers, some with combat experience, like Alexander Kumanichkin, Hero of the Soviet Union with 31 personal and 4 group kills in GPW, plus 6 kills in Korea. Their kill ratio was significantly higher then 2:1, they counted all targets, not only MiGs like 4th FG. They understood pretty well that they stop enemy bombers who come to destroy Korea, just as Germans did to USSR only 5 years earlier.
I don't know who started a civil war in Korea, and I understand that the main reason was irresponscible politics of Western "allies", who intentionally forced a division of the country, just as they did in Germany.
May I ask you one question, please? How does it come that in every conflict with both USSR and US involved on different sides - US side bombs someone "to stone age" and USSR provides air-defence? How can you explain such a difference in approach? I mean not only Korea and Vietnam, this tradition continues at least to 1999 when, as I have heard, Russia gave Yugoslavs some sattelite and radio recon information about coming NATO strikes. Unfortunately, we couldn't help in anything else, we usually follow international laws.
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Originally posted by skernsk
Heh, Hang if you look at it from a distance without the red star or stars and stripes you are both saying the same thing. Just replace US and South with Russia and North and it makes no difference.
Boroda is Russian and grew up with his politics, way of life and has alot of pride in his country. You grew up with your views and ***** red white and blue turds and are proud to be American. Niether one of you can ever convince the other, but carry on as my Molson Canadian supply is endless and it is re-run season.
Thanks! Nice to see someone who still has some common sence! ;)
Originally posted by skernsk
When you get tired of the Korean conflict lets move on to the Vietman one. I know you have a few choice words for Boroda on that one.
:aok
Korean conflict is an endless discussion here since maybe 2000, make some search for something like "boroda korea mig-15 ta-183".
As for Vietnam war - well, I have some indirect connection to that war, and Hangtime knows it.
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At risk of being accused of backseat moderation isn't there a thread hijack going on here? What were your favourite Cold war Aircraft guys? I posted mine.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
At risk of being accused of backseat moderation isn't there a thread hijack going on here? What were your favourite Cold war Aircraft guys? I posted mine.
Aren't we discussing some aspects of combat usage of our favourite Cold War planes, MiG-15, F-86 and others? Korean war experience can be used to estimate combat efficiency of all this planes in hot-war scenario.
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Boroda thinks I am bigot and biased against the CPPP, but my favourite a/c of its era is the MiG19. :)
(http://www.geocities.com/alvmaia/Mig/19pm/19PMgdr2.GIF)
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Skernsk,
Canada really isnt a country everyone knows that.
Thus, Canadians really arent taken seriously by anyone on this planet except for bigfoot hunters.
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LOL! You are just jealous of our free healthcare and high taxes. Not to mention that Beaver (http://comments.big-boys.com/?id=3149) is out national animal.
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okay, well, Boroda's gettin' worked up, but some common sense:
A) Korean War kill numbers on both sides are pretty darn inflated. In order to give either side credit for their vaunted ratios, you have to accuse the other side of grossly underreporting airframe losses in their internal documents. In other words, you're accusing the militaries of lying to themselves. Now, the USAF admits to losing two F-94 Starfire Night Fighters -- aircraft so advanced they weren't allowed North of the 38th Parallel. They lost them in air-to-air engagements with Po-2s (and claiming one Po-2 in the process). If the US records will record losing their super-high-tech, afterburner-equipped jet fighters to 1920s-era biplanes, why would they underreport losing second-line aircraft to MiG-15s?
B) NK invaded. I dunno about provocation, but NK nearly got the whole peninsula. That's a pretty serious invasion.
C) There were US forces on the peninsula, but not many (a division, maybe?).
D) Most of the US aircraft in the Korean Conflict were not F-86s, and Boroda is absolutely right: the MiG-15 is unquestionably a superior air-to-aircraft aircraft than the F-51, the F-80, the F-84, the F9F, the Meteor and even the beloved Skyraider.
E) USAF pilots did strafe airfields north of the Yalu. They weren't supposed to go over the Yalu, but they certainly did.
F) The US did bomb the hell out of North Korea. After a few months, the bombers ran out of targets and went after Targets of Opportunities. There's even a case of a B-29 dropping down to 5000 feet and pickling single 500 pounders trying to hit a guy on a motorcycle. And, when it came time to get the North Koreans back to the negotiating table, they even bombed dams in an attempt to ruin the North Korean rice crop.
G) None of this necessarily means that the North Koreans did or did not have it coming to them; nor does it say anything about their atrocities.
H) The B-58 Hustler is badass!