Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on September 14, 2001, 07:55:00 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21262-2001Sep12.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21262-2001Sep12.html)
By Lee Hockstader
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, September 13, 2001; Page A26
JERUSALEM, Sept. 12 ....
"In that vein, Israeli security experts said today that it would be practically impossible for hijackers to commandeer a flight on El Al, Israel's national airline, as they did on the four U.S. planes Tuesday.
For one thing, armed Israeli sky marshals in plain clothes fly in passenger seats on El Al flights -- a last line of defense should the airline's ground security systems fail. For another, El Al cockpits are sealed off by two virtually impenetrable doors, which are not opened during flight.
"In Israel nobody can enter the cockpit -- never, never, never, never!" said Assaf Hefetz, a former national police chief. "It's impossible by force or by threats to enter the cockpit, and it's been like that for 20 years.""
I believe they fly a lot of the same aircraft we all do. Must be an alternative to our flimsy symbolism out there that might even already have a Boeing part number.
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I've seen many comparisons between US air transport and Israeli.
The marshalls and the doors make sense.
As for their pre-boarding passenger screening process, I can't see Americans ever putting up with it... far too intrusive, far too militaristic.
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i think i'd be ok with highly intusive checks(short of cavity searches). but only temporarily until authoritys have had enough time to come up with an exceptable system
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Ooops read the initial post again, and it makes sense now. Doh! :D
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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I'm with ya Apathy... but Israel doesn't stop at searches. They interrogate passengers as a matter of routine.
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I'd be REAL happy to get a double door system thats reported to hold 'em out about 15 minutes.
You can come down ~6000 FPM with everything hanging and make 6-7 miles a minute towards the nearest airport while doing that.
It'd be a start.
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on future plane designs how about a completely disconected cockpit. seperate door, so cockpit access is only available on the ground
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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That's what it would take, a completely new design... which means it would be 15-20 years before you see the change in appreciable numbers.
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That's what it would take, a completely new design... which means it would be 15-20 years before you see the change in appreciable numbers.
So El Al is using completely different aircraft? I don't believe they are. The design is there already.
The only problem is the $$$ it would cost for airlines operating with minimal overhead. That is where federal assistance should come in.
AKDejaVu
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Sure... to strengthen the doors wouldn't be a major overhaul. There are some that advocate completely separating crew doors and crew facilities from that of the passengers. I think this would be a major design change.
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Sure... to strengthen the doors wouldn't be a major overhaul. There are some that advocate completely separating crew doors and crew facilities from that of the passengers. I think this would be a major design change.
I don't believe it would be possible to do this for any airliner flying right now. It would basically be something to consider for future versions still on the design board.
Its easy to advocate complete separation (as I have) but not fully understand the consequences in a current design. Its not as easy to dismiss upgrades already done to various aircraft around the world.
Do what can be done right now. Decide on what should be done in future designs.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Toad:
I'd be REAL happy to get a double door system thats reported to hold 'em out about 15 minutes.
You can come down ~6000 FPM with everything hanging and make 6-7 miles a minute towards the nearest airport while doing that.
It'd be a start.
While reporting to the nearest center, "we are down to 56000 pounds of fuel on board" ;)
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LOL toad... i didn't know what the israeli's did when i made my suggestion for sky marshalls but.... I will say that we don't need to reinvent the wheel and that if it works for israel it will most certainly work for us... we should follow their lead in all things terrorist till we reach their level of expertese..
Contrast that with the "sleeping gas" crap that is going around in some circles!
lazs
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i think they already use 'sleeping gas" i fall asleep when flying now
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I just saw the first interviews with US pilots tonight.
Guys, they're not stupid. Up till now it has been negotiate, do as they say, land somewhere, let them get arrested.
Now our pilots are talking like commandos. They all know what happened, and are probably more informed about airline security than you or I. The copilot of one flight kept his heavy, emergency flashlight (big long suckers) as a club just in case. There is NO WAY any US commercial pilot will cooperate with terrorist from here on out. They're as vocal about these security changes as much, if not more so, than the rest of us. One pilot wanted these changes within the week. Yes, THIS week. Skymarshals and security doors.
I wouldn't put it past the PASSENGERS to grab and beat to death any hijacker in the imdiate future on any airline anywhere. Bomb threat or not.
One other point. I know it is racist, but there is no point in ignoring it. Any Arab flying on a major airline right now will be stared at and carefully studied by his fellow passengers. I feel bad for the innocent Arab people this will happen to, but it will. I bet the airline security forces will examine him like a bug too. Racial profiline is supposed to be bad, but after this week it might become normal.
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lthans.... You would trust a crazy pilot with a weapon as devestating as a ..... flashlight!!! What if he went berserk and went back and beat all the passengers to death with it!! Let their blood be on your hands.
What is to stop him from getting himself born in the U.S. and raised here and go through the military and learn to fly and have Bar-b-ques every sunday to throw people off guard just so that he can one day bring a flashlight on board and club his fellow crewman into submission and take over the ac??
lazs
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Well, Laz, despite the fact that everyone of us has undergone extensive, continual training either in the military or the civilian world, despite the fact that we undergo recurrent training once or twice every year, despite the fact that the very essence of successful aviation is knowing how to evaluate a situation and take the proper action (judgement), despite that fact that the industry as a whole.. with us at the yokes... has given the world the safest system of mass transportation in the history of mankind....
You have to accept the fact that we're not capable of being further trained to use the proper tools and judgement to defend the cockpits of our aircraft.
Bascially, you just can't trust us at all. We're all a bunch of.. um... what was that word... meant in jest of course.... and misunderstood as a term for a ... umm ... "hot shot pilot" was it? ... oh, yeah..
We're all a bunch of "cowboys". But only the finest sense of the word.
:rolleyes:
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Once we make it illeagal to bring flashlights on board we should be safe. We could even put "under penalty of law" at the main entrance to the airport to make it work better.
lazs
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Jeezus Toad, this thing is eating you from the inside out, and it shows. I mean it, your way to tweaked.
Take it easy man.
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Once again, you simply don't know what you are talking about.