Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: slimm50 on July 07, 2005, 03:14:50 PM
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OK, I may have to concede a point to MT. Here's what I've come up with so far:
1995 population in Africa = 719 million. (not the most current figger, but it'll do fer arguin')
recent anual birth rate in Africa: 41 births per 1000 population.
sooo.... ((719,000,000/1000)x41)/365 = 80,764 births per day.
Someone check my math. The point being that, yeah, apparently the can sustain a 30k/day mortality rate for children, because you just know the population figures for 2005 are greater than for 1995. i.e., bigger numerator = even more births per day.
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"yeah, apparently the can sustain a 30k/day mortality rate for children"
Geezus man. A grade for distastefull. Did this need a thread of its own?
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Originally posted by Squire
"yeah, apparently the can sustain a 30k/day mortality rate for children"
Geezus man. A grade for distastefull. Did this need a thread of its own?
Distasteful? He's reporting a statistic. Ignoring it won't make it go away.
Try this for distasteful... The FDA has dictated an acceptable level of rat feces in processed food and that number is not zero. ;)
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Originally posted by Squire
"yeah, apparently the can sustain a 30k/day mortality rate for children"
Geezus man. A grade for distastefull. Did this need a thread of its own?
You are catching the tail-end of a conversation. It wasn't meant as callous as this little snippet seems to you.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Try this for distasteful... The FDA has dictated an acceptable level of rat feces in processed food and that number is not zero. ;)
Heh, I once worked for the Borden Foods Comapny. They have a minimum number of rodent hairs acceptable in their peanut butter.
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I got all those acceptable levels around here somewhere. I use it to teach Quality management classes. Looking.....
to you Slimm for taking this conversation to another thread.
Also when yer ciphering you need to remember yer gazinta's.
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Originally posted by slimm50
OK, I may have to concede a point to MT. Here's what I've come up with so far:
1995 population in Africa = 719 million. (not the most current figger, but it'll do fer arguin')
recent anual birth rate in Africa: 41 births per 1000 population.
sooo.... ((719,000,000/1000)x41)/365 = 80,764 births per day.
Someone check my math. The point being that, yeah, apparently the can sustain a 30k/day mortality rate for children, because you just know the population figures for 2005 are greater than for 1995. i.e., bigger numerator = even more births per day.
Well if thats the case, they dont need food. they need salt peter
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Small math problem. The birth rate figure is usually given as "births per 1,000 females", not per 1,000 people. For example, in the united states, the average annual birth rate is 14 per 1,000 females.
So, which figure is it? 41 per 1,000 total or 41 per 1,000 females? If it's the former, then your numbers are pretty inaccurate. If it's the latter, then compare it to 28 per 1,000 for the US.
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It's crude birth rate, which is the number of births in a given year divided by the total population, including men.
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What is the mortality rate in Africa ages 12-35? Thats the prime child creating age for a human population group.
How many will die in the next 5 years due to AIDS along with how many will aquire AIDS during that period who are just acheiving reproductive age? what is the aquisition rate of AIDS in general for Africa and then rate of expected deaths. How many babies are born with AIDS as opposed to direct infant\child mortality after birth?
How many are dieing total to the ongoing Warlordism and governemnt and religious thuggery previlant in many African countries?
Population statistics for Africa are at best a guess by the U.N. So to are mortality rates for that continent.
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I'm still trying to figure out how someone dies from "poverty"... you can die when people take the food away... you can die from disease or famine or bad water.. you can die from wars or accidents but being poor doesn't kill you.
How many people are born in subsaharan africa every year? What are the major causes of death?
lazs
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In the long run, yeah... being poor will kill you. Your health care improves with your income.
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define "improves"... certainly the very richest have access to the best and latest health care and most expensive procedures.
On the other end of the scale... if you live under conditions of ignorance and war and are overpopulated for the type of land you are on and if you take no precautions against entirely preventable diseases like aids or.... if you simply can't afford vacinations or your local warlord confiscates em all and sells em to feed his army... that is a different.
lazs
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Lazs, go visit Africa sometime. When there go to a hospital where kids are dying hideously deformed with Birkets lymphoma, preventable for a 50p treatment. Meet some people who have more resilience humanity and generosity than most despite having virtualy nothing. Then come home and see if its worth proving petty points about dying from poverty or whatever.
I am proud of our Govt. I don't always agree with them. But for once I am damn proud that they are pushing this agenda on Africa to the top of the pile and that despite the wickedness of todays events they are continuing to do so. That is the victory in the war on terror. To be more compassionate to be more human to be moraly greater than your enemy. If you are not themn he has won.
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do not presume to think you know how much or little I am doing.
I also know that it is often impossible to get supplies to africans due to the political situation.
lazs
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Ok thats true. I agree that often the Governments in Africa are often the worst enemies of those people. In order to help africa we neeed to do something about that though I'm damned if I know what.
Having been there a couple of times I'll also admit I have a liking for the place and the people I met so the issue is one I have more than a passing interest in. I'm no scholar though so detail is not my forte just a gut reaction as to what is the right thing to do.
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Originally posted by myelo
It's crude birth rate, which is the number of births in a given year divided by the total population, including men.
Thanks for clearing that up:)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
when yer ciphering you need to remember yer gazinta's.
Hey, I know my gazintas:
5 gazinta 10 2 times,
5 gazinta 15 3 times,
5 gazinta 20 4 times,
5 gazinta 25 5 times,
5 gazinta 30 6 times,
.
.
.
.
1000 gazinta 719,000,000 719,000 times:D
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You want to solve the African problem? Blockade and isolate it for 5 years. No assistance, no imports, no nothing. The situation would solve itself.
The degree of suffering would be terrible, but it will be no matter what we do.
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Originally posted by Lizking
You want to solve the African problem? Blockade and isolate it for 5 years. No assistance, no imports, no nothing. The situation would solve itself.
The degree of suffering would be terrible, but it will be no matter what we do.
I think thats what most of the aid to africa has already done is prolong the suffering, 100k people, aid saves 70k who pump out a bunch a kids who die, survivors pump out a bunch more who most die and more where most die and more, and more, then you have 1million+ dead instead of just 100k.
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By flooding the market with "free" aid, we prevent native investement in self-sufficentcy. We stifle enterprise and encourage graft. We limit markets for African goods by devaluating their currency due to the amount of "free" money given. Africa has more resources, both in people and in exploitive industries than any other continent on earth.
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The problem is that the problems of Africa will NEVER be solved by forgiving debt and throwing money. I have to wonder, where the Hell did the idea that the debts of Africa were ever a major cause of starvation in Africa come from, and who the Hell came up with it?
You could spend the total of the national debt and the GNP on it on a yearly basis and damned near the same number of people will starve as are starving now.
It would take force, and a significant amount of it, to deal with the civil wars, the corruption, the graft, and the greed, in order to get it all under control well enough to actually do some serious good. We'd only be judged as heavy handed imperialist colonizers.
Further, you could take them all the food, medicine, and supplies that could possibly be generated and it would only be a very temporary and unsustainable solution.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. No where does it better apply than in Africa.
Or as Sam Kinison once screamed from a stage "Don't send them some food, move them where the food is!" While you can't relocate them, you get the idea.
It's not that I have no sympathy for the unfortunates of Africa, but rather that I'd like to see something meaningful and worthwhile done rather than wasted rhetoric and wasted money.
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If we can bring democracy to the middle east and make them free, surely we can bring food to Africa and cure thier hunger. ;)
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One major project at a time.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The problem is that the problems of Africa will NEVER be solved by forgiving debt and throwing money. I have to wonder, where the Hell did the idea that the debts of Africa were ever a major cause of starvation in Africa come from, and who the Hell came up with it?
You could spend the total of the national debt and the GNP on it on a yearly basis and damned near the same number of people will starve as are starving now.
It would take force, and a significant amount of it, to deal with the civil wars, the corruption, the graft, and the greed, in order to get it all under control well enough to actually do some serious good. We'd only be judged as heavy handed imperialist colonizers.
Further, you could take them all the food, medicine, and supplies that could possibly be generated and it would only be a very temporary and unsustainable solution.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. No where does it better apply than in Africa.
Or as Sam Kinison once screamed from a stage "Don't send them some food, move them where the food is!" While you can't relocate them, you get the idea.
It's not that I have no sympathy for the unfortunates of Africa, but rather that I'd like to see something meaningful and worthwhile done rather than wasted rhetoric and wasted money.
If national debt was a teller of a nation's starvation rate, well, the United States would probably not exist.
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I wish Africa did have a problem that could be pointed to and solved.............
I wish "being poor" was the same as living / dieing in abject poverty..........
What is clear to me is that the plight of many Africans is a totally unacceptable blot on the face of humanity........ one which would not be tolerated elsewhere.............
This is not only about food aid because of a drought / bad harvest or local war.
Its not only about corrupt governments syphoning off massive amounts of money from a beliguered populace.
Its not only about interest payments on loans that now exceed debting countries combined health and educational budgets
Its not only about pandemic aids where in some countries the average age is reduced from over 50 to 33 years yet drugs and condoms and education cannot be afforded.
Its not only about trade tarrifs thats allow "western countries" to profit from African mineral recources whilst denying those same African countries profitable trade with the "West"
It is about all these things and many more....but to me there is also an element of "Western denial" a sort of SEP effect.
Numbers game in Africa is a tragedy of epic proportions that puts past world wars in the shade..............
The horror or WWII saw the passing of approx 36 million over approx 6 years (rounded for simple math) thats 6 million a year or 16,500 per day.
Yet poverty related deaths in Africa are apparantly double this death rate.
The Make Poverty History Campaign may be a Liberals Wet Dream.
It may be nievely assuming some sort of common Christian ideal mixed with the fanatasy of a "common good".
It may have been hijacked for the greater glory of various ego's.
But it has brought the numbers home to me ....they are truely evil.
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I second that.
!
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I agree with the statement above that sending more money will not cure anything. In fact I beleieve it will only create greater problems. More goods, food, supplys for the war lords and theiving groups to gather up and make themselves more powerfull. They are, in fact, as a people, their own worst enemy.
In basis what they have is internal terrorism on a large scale.
The only way it will be controlled, like it or not, is by use of over powering force. Dodge City on a large scale.
All the funds in the world would not help in the current situation. It only fuels the fire that is slowly destroying their country.
Education on a large scale cannot be accomplished under the current circumstances.
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Settle down...settle down...everythings ok. We gave the billions of dollars...it will all work out.
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...there's a little country called Haiti. All of 8 million people.
It's hard to fathom our arrogant thinking that we can make any meaningfull impact at all in Africa when we've failed so miserably with a problem much closer to home and of comparative miniscule scope.
Shouldn't we prove our ability to use external means - such as debt relief, cash, medicine, food, etc - to "fix" a tiny little problem before committing to solving problems for a whole continent?
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If enough aid was given to magically make every African child live to the age of 75.
In 50 years the world woul d not be able to support the population of Africa let alone Africa be self sufficient.
So what do you do?
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Ok... so we admit that wringing your hands and telling everyone how much you care is not gonna work.... we admit that throwing money or aid at the situation is not gonna work..
We admit that simply allowing more africans to survive so that they can overpopulate (defined as using up all the resources that your technolodgy can produce)at an even greater rate is not a good idea...
What was that solution again?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... so we admit that wringing your hands and telling everyone how much you care is not gonna work.... we admit that throwing money or aid at the situation is not gonna work..
We admit that simply allowing more africans to survive so that they can overpopulate (defined as using up all the resources that your technolodgy can produce)at an even greater rate is not a good idea...
What was that solution again?
lazs
dunno but the more I think about it the better my solution sounds.
Orrr We could just leave them alone and let nature do its thing.
Nature always seems to have a way of balancing things like thigs out if left alone.
It aint pretty. it aint polite, Never has been.
But it works and has for thousands of years
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are warlords part of "nature"?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
are warlords part of "nature"?
lazs
Would probably fall into the "predator" catagory
but human nature. yea I'd say so.
they've been around as long as we have so....;)
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Actually i'd have to say yes outright.
If we look at the rest of the animal kingdom particularly those that live in packs. just as we humas do (only on a larger and more complex scale)
Warlords exist in most species:)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I'm still trying to figure out how someone dies from "poverty"... you can die when people take the food away... you can die from disease or famine or bad water.. you can die from wars or accidents but being poor doesn't kill you.
How many people are born in subsaharan africa every year? What are the major causes of death?
lazs
"Poverty" in Africa is atrocious. No clean water, barely living on less thatn $1 a day, barely eating. Do you REALLY need someone to draw you a picture of the absolute, appreciation of life that YOU are living? Why do you type some of this watermelon to get a "knee-jerk" reaction?
When I went through Mexico with my family in the Summer of 1990 (we drove from Michigan and made it as far as Villahermosa). Mexicans were so poor (not nearly as bad as in Africa) that they stole the Toilet Seats.
Question lazs. Do YOU think you could live on $365 a day? You know damn well you can't. Feel free to come up with your BS scenarios which wouldn't even give you the appropriate nutrients.
Being "poor" in Africa means you have an increased chance of being born with HIV (um, which definately decreases your life), die of diseases that easily can be prevented.
This is my only post in this thread. Some of you literally sicken me.
I've never said this before, but this thread should be LOCKED.
Karaya
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If you look at the cost in human lives and suffering in Africa due to the West artificialy supporting a population that other wise would not naturally exist, you have to wonder what kind of monsters we have become in our compassion, but missguided arrogance that we know how to "save" the world.............
It's no different than communities in America who pass anti-hunting ordances to protect the "Bambies" and "Thumppers" from the evil hunters. Then they have no answer to their children asking "Mommy why can't I wake up that smelly deer sleeping in the back yard"?
And then all the Mommies go to the local governemnt and demand they save the poor starving deer because it's upsetting thier children.............and the government says "But Ladies you told us to stop all hunting to save the poor deer, but now they are starving to death"!!
And the Mommies say to the government "Well, you start feeding them so they won't starve to death. We saved them from the hunters"!!
And the government responds to the Mommies "Ok that means we will have to raise your taxes to pay for feeding them, keeping them out of your yards, and medicine to stave off the diaseases that will break out from the deer over crowding".
And the Mommies go" Good we have saved the poor littel deer once again. Isn't it good you simply listened to us and did what we know is best"?
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Has anyone made a sugestion about what can be done?
You can give the debt relief and its not going to do a damn thing, send more aid and it may help for a short time.
Nothing short of total government reform will help.
IF the US or any other nation tried to go in a wipe the governments, they would get painted with the nation build colonial BS.
But thats what its going to take. Or eventualy aids may kill enough they will do it on their own.
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If we can bring democracy to the middle east and make them free, surely we can bring food to Africa and cure thier hunger.
Maybe democracy needs to bloom in Africa. Or maybe somebody can give us a different explanation as to why these African peoples allow criminals to run their countries?
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Originally posted by Lizking
You want to solve the African problem? Blockade and isolate it for 5 years. No assistance, no imports, no nothing. The situation would solve itself.
The degree of suffering would be terrible, but it will be no matter what we do.
It's very un-PC, but Lizking probably has the best idea here. Buy nothing from them (including oil), give them no food or cash. Do not forgive debt. Provide what medical relief we can only with Docs on the ground (no simple shipping over medicines and supplies).
It would be painfull to watch, but eventually some semblance of order and civilization would result. Perhaps not one to our liking, but at least something we could deal with.
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This is my only post in this thread. Some of you literally sicken me.
Karaya [/B]
The problem in Africa is corruption and an out of control birth rate. It is not the west's fault, nor is it the west's problem.
If you want the west to donate billions more to Africa do the right thing and lead by example. Donate 7% of your annual salary to them.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Maybe democracy needs to bloom in Africa. Or maybe somebody can give us a different explanation as to why these African peoples allow criminals to run their countries?
I was being glib... but now that you mention it, the people of Iraq allowed a criminal to run their country. It seems to be a common theme.
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Originally posted by bustr
If you look at the cost in human lives and suffering in Africa due to the West artificialy supporting a population that other wise would not naturally exist, you have to wonder what kind of monsters we have become in our compassion, but missguided arrogance that we know how to "save" the world.............
It's no different than communities in America who pass anti-hunting ordances to protect the "Bambies" and "Thumppers" from the evil hunters. Then they have no answer to their children asking "Mommy why can't I wake up that smelly deer sleeping in the back yard"?
And then all the Mommies go to the local governemnt and demand they save the poor starving deer because it's upsetting thier children.............and the government says "But Ladies you told us to stop all hunting to save the poor deer, but now they are starving to death"!!
And the Mommies say to the government "Well, you start feeding them so they won't starve to death. We saved them from the hunters"!!
And the government responds to the Mommies "Ok that means we will have to raise your taxes to pay for feeding them, keeping them out of your yards, and medicine to stave off the diaseases that will break out from the deer over crowding".
And the Mommies go" Good we have saved the poor littel deer once again. Isn't it good you simply listened to us and did what we know is best"?
You know what you've done. You've made an excellent case for ending welfare in this country. ;)
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So, people = deer?
I guess all of you would have voted against the Marshall plan too? I mean why not let Europe starve. The war was their own fault. With all those bombed out ruins the population was too high to be supported by the infrastructure...
Funny how quick we are to sentence innocent people to death when they are so far away.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So, people = deer?
I guess all of you would have voted against the Marshall plan too? I mean why not let Europe starve. The war was their own fault. With all those bombed out ruins the population was too high to be supported by the infrastructure...
Funny how quick we are to sentence innocent people to death when they are so far away.
No. But...
Are you suggesting, as with what led up to the Marshall plan, the solution is a full scale military invasion, the dismantling of all existing political and military structure, followed by the aggresive establishment of a system largely designed by us, with this process overseen by our military?
Wait a minute...this reminds me of something I know you've argued gainst, MT.
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The Marshall Plan was the opening shot in the next World War. Our resolve to be in the game was being tested by Stalin.
The West's aid to the 3rd world has turned it into what it currently is. Just like wellfare in the America created it's current failed mess. You cannot save human beings from themselves. Our arrogance in the notion that we can is killing people in the 3rd world and has perpetuated the evil of welfare in America for 40 years.
In nature, left alone, ecosystems out of balance will adjust themselves. Africa is completely out of balance. The West is perpetuating the imbalance by being involved. Our aid never gives Africa a chance to balance itself in whatever form it's people can emotional, psychological and culturaly support.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So, people = deer?
I guess all of you would have voted against the Marshall plan too? I mean why not let Europe starve. The war was their own fault. With all those bombed out ruins the population was too high to be supported by the infrastructure...
Funny how quick we are to sentence innocent people to death when they are so far away.
We are not doing anything to them. They are doing it on their own. Why should our tax money be thrown away, when it won't help.
Africa is not post WW2 europe.
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I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............
Jeez guys will some of you just read what you have written!
SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)
Denial
Mass extinction policies?
tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!
dont play debating games with this one.............
there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............
But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............
Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?
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Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............
Jeez guys will some of you just read what you have written!
SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)
Denial
Mass extinction policies?
tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!
dont play debating games with this one.............
there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............
But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............
Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?
Ok smart guy how do you fix it. A real fix not a fantasy land fix that will never work.
I refuse to feel any guilt for a problem I had nothing to do with. IS it tragic? Yes it is. Is it fair? No prolly not, life is like that. Can we realisticaly do anyhing about it? I really doubt it, but if someone can come up with a smart plan I am all ears, but so far all I hear is people trying to guilt others into feeling bad over **** they can do nothing about.
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Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............
Jeez guys will some of you just read what you have written!
SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)
Denial
Mass extinction policies?
tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!
dont play debating games with this one.............
there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............
But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............
Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?
There's a marked difference between ignoring a problem in hopes that it will go away and making a well considered decision to not continue to exacerbate a problem by throwing money at it.
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One person or 250 million persons you cannot solve their problem from your side of the issue. The person(s) has to solve their problem or suffer their problem. If you get involved, you "might" get randomly lucky and do occassional good.
More often you will either be sucked in and become part of the problem, or you will force your cherished utopian solution upon them by force of some threat and make them a slave or a junky to your solution.
Only when the person or community is ready to solve their own problem will they change and heal themselves. At that time they also won't need your cherished plan of social utopianism because they will have found their path to self sufficiency.
Africans are still slaves to the western world because of all the aid. We don't need them to live in our homes, or toil in our feilds anymore. We have them addicted to our aid while we are addicted to our selfish "self image" as universal champions of charity and compassion at all costs. We need to make ourselves "feel good" when we see suffering. And thats "feel good" at any cost including the labeling on this board of some as heartless and cruel ogers.
I am neither heartless nor cruel. I refuse to enslave others with misguided kindness and steal from them their freedom to define their personal destiny. Unlike like the mommies who saved all the Bambies and ended up starving the herd to death.
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africa is a continent comprised of 37 or so countries with wide variation in culture, climate and geography. the problem with some african countries are the africans themselves. if you need an example look at rhodesia and south africa, especially rhodesia now called zimbabwe. here was a self sufficient country that was prosperous until one sector of the population took it upon themselves to drive out the minority in favor of majority rule. rhodesia was nice and stable, zimbabwe is a cesspool. however there are good examples of what the black africans could do in order to turn themselves around. one clear example can be found in uganda under the able leadership of current president Yoweri Kaguta Museveni. not all of africa is a disaster. but it does seem that the areas the guilt ridden white western liberals are wringing their hands about and throwing money at sure are.
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Originally posted by bustr
One person or 250 million persons you cannot solve their problem from your side of the issue. The person(s) has to solve their problem or suffer their problem. If you get involved, you "might" get randomly lucky and do occassional good.
More often you will either be sucked in and become part of the problem, or you will force your cherished utopian solution upon them by force of some threat and make them a slave or a junky to your solution.
Only when the person or community is ready to solve their own problem will they change and heal themselves. At that time they also won't need your cherished plan of social utopianism because they will have found their path to self sufficiency.
Africans are still slaves to the western world because of all the aid. We don't need them to live in our homes, or toil in our feilds anymore. We have them addicted to our aid while we are addicted to our selfish "self image" as universal champions of charity and compassion at all costs. We need to make ourselves "feel good" when we see suffering. And thats "feel good" at any cost including the labeling on this board of some as heartless and cruel ogers.
I am neither heartless nor cruel. I refuse to enslave others with misguided kindness and steal from them their freedom to define their personal destiny. Unlike like the mommies who saved all the Bambies and ended up starving the herd to death.
spot on bustr but you misspelled ogre :D
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Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............
Jeez guys will some of you just read what you have written!
SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)
Denial
Mass extinction policies?
tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!
dont play debating games with this one.............
there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............
But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............
Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?
Oh I know what I've written. I did after all write it.
SEP= Yes. the Africans Problem If we want to send aid. we should send aid to the Stable and prosperous countries in africa so they might be able to raise an armies and conquer these unstable ones. Thus bringing stability.
Denial. Well aid is obviously not only not working but judging from the birthrate/deathrate only feeding the problem (no pun intended)
Mass extinction. Based on the birthrate alone. it does not appear there is any danger of extinction. Part of the problem is a runaway birthrate. With the population rise out pacing the resources. 10's of thousands a day might not be dieing if not for the 20's and 30 thousands a day being born.
If there is a danger of extinction it is because they are breeding themselves out of existance.
I say leave em alone. For thousands and thousands of years Africa did just fine on its own with its own balance. It wasnt untill we started showing up that its gotten out of whack. And since we have started "helping" its only served to make it worse.
Leave the place alone. Cut off all aid and let it balance itself out
Yes Many thousands will die. Also many thousands will live. A true balance will be restored and they will all end up stronger because of it.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Ok smart guy how do you fix it.
I refuse to feel any guilt for a problem
Wish I new re a fix........... and its not a guilt thing....................if I was trying to excite some emotion (and I dont think I was) I think "concern" would be more appropriate..........
I reckon if the Western World was truely concerned then other stuff would follow........... for sure there would not be excuses constantly eminating for not doing stuff.
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"Concern" means dick when you are dealing with a situation that can only be solved by the persons involved. Nothing we (the rest of the world) can do will have any other effect than assauging our collective (and undeserved) guilt and enriching local tyrants.
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Money isn't the answer ....it's a means to an end.... Too often money has just been given in hopes that corrupt leaders will use the money appropriatly.....
We need to invest the money in things, and see them built, and distributed.
Infastructure
__________________________
Road devlepoment, Dam's/hydro electric etc...
Schools
Effective govement
farms and irrigation meathods, and the structre to support it.... you can't have tractors without gas and parts to maintain them. How many are still farming off an oxen driven plow? How many have reliable irrigation meathods?
& Goods
_____________________________ __
Condom's and other birth controls are needed and should be given freely.
Medicines and even the faciclties to produce needed medicines should be built and given freely.
just a few basic ideas ... but point is you don't just throw money at it .... money is nothing but paper.
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poverty in Africa can be solved in only one way that the west is not willing to accept.
The only way for those african countries to make money and raise industries is to export their goods - that means agriculture at the moment. Currently their western markets are block since US and Europian countries are protecting their local farmers. Importing good from the 3rd world at floor prices world will break many local markets and eliminate most western farmers. No western goverment will support that.
Natural resources that many african countries have will not help the population. The profits only goes to the lords and the corrupt rulers. Western "investors" in Africa only mean sweat shops, not real, locally owned industry that will give rise to a local wealthy middle class initiating more industry.
So, helping Africa require hurting yourself. It isn't going to happen and that's globalization for you.
Bozon
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concern isnt a fix.
Concern isnt even the start of a fix.
Lots of people are concerned.
Thats not a fix.
Concern without a realistic plan is not going to change anything.
Concern gets the same BS that it always has guilt money thrown away and the problem still goes on.
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Originally posted by Manedew
Money isn't the answer ....it's a means to an end.... Too often money has just been given in hopes that corrupt leaders will use the money appropriatly.....
We need to invest the money in things, and see them built, and distributed.
Infastructure
__________________________
Road devlepoment, Dam's/hydro electric etc...
Schools
Effective govement
farms and irrigation meathods, and the structre to support it.... you can't have tractors without gas and parts to maintain them. How many are still farming off an oxen driven plow? How many have reliable irrigation meathods?
& Goods
_____________________________ __
Condom's and other birth controls are needed and should be given freely.
Medicines and even the faciclties to produce needed medicines should be built and given freely.
just a few basic ideas ... but point is you don't just throw money at it .... money is nothing but paper.
Without MONEY, these highlighted issues are useless.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............
Jeez guys will some of you just read what you have written!
SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)
Denial
Mass extinction policies?
tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!
dont play debating games with this one.............
there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............
But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............
Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?
Tilt, let me be the first to say the following: Lord knows you and I have had some run-ins in the past. But, I'm with you on this. These guys have no concept on what Poverty in the US and Poverty in Africa. They are poles apart in scope.
<> Tilt
Karaya
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"Poverty" in Africa is atrocious. No clean water, barely living on less thatn $1 a day, barely eating. Do you REALLY need someone to draw you a picture of the absolute, appreciation of life that YOU are living? Why do you type some of this watermelon to get a "knee-jerk" reaction?
When I went through Mexico with my family in the Summer of 1990 (we drove from Michigan and made it as far as Villahermosa). Mexicans were so poor (not nearly as bad as in Africa) that they stole the Toilet Seats.
Question lazs. Do YOU think you could live on $365 a day? You know damn well you can't. Feel free to come up with your BS scenarios which wouldn't even give you the appropriate nutrients.
Being "poor" in Africa means you have an increased chance of being born with HIV (um, which definately decreases your life), die of diseases that easily can be prevented.
This is my only post in this thread. Some of you literally sicken me.
I've never said this before, but this thread should be LOCKED. "
Ok... first of all... I can easily live on $365 a day... did you mean a year maybe?
And... none of the things you talk about have anything to do with poverty. They are not a death because of poverty... every single one is a result of overpopulation. Africans lived on zero dollars a day (or year) berfore we got there.
Is our culture what they need? Is making them just like us the answer? I have heard no answers. Seems that our culture being exported has led to overpopulation and these death rates.
We are blamed today for slaughtering the lifestyle of the indians... the hippies of the plains who had a similar death rate and were every bit as poor as the negoes in africa...
perhaps the real solution is tax free african casinos?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
"Poverty" in Africa is atrocious. No clean water, barely living on less thatn $1 a day, barely eating. Do you REALLY need someone to draw you a picture of the absolute, appreciation of life that YOU are living? Why do you type some of this watermelon to get a "knee-jerk" reaction?
When I went through Mexico with my family in the Summer of 1990 (we drove from Michigan and made it as far as Villahermosa). Mexicans were so poor (not nearly as bad as in Africa) that they stole the Toilet Seats.
Question lazs. Do YOU think you could live on $365 a day? You know damn well you can't. Feel free to come up with your BS scenarios which wouldn't even give you the appropriate nutrients.
Being "poor" in Africa means you have an increased chance of being born with HIV (um, which definately decreases your life), die of diseases that easily can be prevented.
This is my only post in this thread. Some of you literally sicken me.
I've never said this before, but this thread should be LOCKED. "
Ok... first of all... I can easily live on $365 a day... did you mean a year maybe?
And... none of the things you talk about have anything to do with poverty. They are not a death because of poverty... every single one is a result of overpopulation. Africans lived on zero dollars a day (or year) berfore we got there.
Is our culture what they need? Is making them just like us the answer? I have heard no answers. Seems that our culture being exported has led to overpopulation and these death rates.
We are blamed today for slaughtering the lifestyle of the indians... the hippies of the plains who had a similar death rate and were every bit as poor as the negoes in africa...
perhaps the real solution is tax free african casinos?
lazs
I apologize. $1 a day. You will not live long on a dollar a day.
Indians didn't live on money, they lived off of the land (fr a helluva lot longer than the US has existed, including the Jamestown, and 1620-on). We took the land. I CANNOT dispute this, nor can I change anything. The Europeans needed money, they didn't. The Indians had no Death Rate toll of this magnitude.
The whole Live 8 thing is for the "elimination of debt" which is easier to accomplish than most would have you believe.
Karaya
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Originally posted by storch
especially rhodesia now called zimbabwe. here was a self sufficient country that was prosperous until one sector of the population took it upon themselves to drive out the minority in favor of majority rule. rhodesia was nice and stable, zimbabwe is a cesspool.
Your definition of prosperous didn't apply to the majority of the Rhodesian population. Kinda like saying everything was just strawberries and cream down in Mississippi y'all, until darn'ed old Lincoln up and ruined it.
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Not true at all. Zimbabwe was the grain basket of Africa. It had a huge food surplus, is rich in minerals like gold and copper, had ample power from its hydroelectric dams.
Now it is a basketcase. It cannot produce enough food to feed itself. The farmland that was turned over to friends of Mugabi is now ruined as the topsoil has blown away after it was overgraized.
The place is a mess and there is no one to blame but its current government.
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Originally posted by Habu
Not true at all. Zimbabwe was the grain basket of Africa. It had a huge food surplus, is rich in minerals like gold and copper, had ample power from its hydroelectric dams.
Now it is a basketcase. It cannot produce enough food to feed itself. The farmland that was turned over to friends of Mugabi is now ruined as the topsoil has blown away after it was overgraized.
The place is a mess and there is no one to blame but its current government.
All of which ignores the fact that the majority was in poverty.
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Originally posted by slimm50
Heh, I once worked for the Borden Foods Comapny. They have a minimum number of rodent hairs acceptable in their peanut butter.
Minimum ?
if they have 0 rodent hair they add some to have the minima ?
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karaya... you miss my point. They had no money in not so ancient africa so.... why does money matter? why do the tribes need money to survive? What has changed and...
What is your solution? Make them more dependent on western style of culture? make them more dependent on money while increasing their infant survival rate?
I just don't see a western solution to medling into this culture.
lazs
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Originally posted by midnight Target
All of which ignores the fact that the majority was in poverty.
So poverty for all is better then poverty for most?
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Originally posted by straffo
Minimum ?
if they have 0 rodent hair they add some to have the minima ?
OK, they have a maximum number allowable. Better?:D
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Well ... this link is not quite about africa, but its about birth rate. And it quite funny :D
And its proof that Palestine girls are much more hot that gals of Israel :cool:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4673055.stm
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Your definition of prosperous didn't apply to the majority of the Rhodesian population. Kinda like saying everything was just strawberries and cream down in Mississippi y'all, until darn'ed old Lincoln up and ruined it.
If I'm not mistaken the majority of sub Saharan Africa is in the hands of the native populations. Lets wait and see how the indiginous populations fair with their current opportunity to build a better way of doing things than we Western White Men did.
Othere wise all this talk of aid and building infrastructure and making it work this time around sounds like no one has any faith in the ability of the indiginous peoples "to overcome".....................
After all, this time around it's the indiginous population doing or allowing all of the inhumanity to itself.
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Originally posted by slimm50
OK, they have a maximum number allowable. Better?:D
yep ,better :D
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Hey now, a little rat hair give hot dogs that, oh so great taste!!
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
So poverty for all is better then poverty for most?
huh?
Everybody's poor now?
The real question is whether you would rather have abject poverty with no chance for self determination, or abject poverty with a chance for self determination.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The whole Live 8 thing is for the "elimination of debt" which is easier to accomplish than most would have you believe.
Karaya
Exactly WHAT is the elimination of debt supposed to do?
Do you REALLY think that the governments of those countries are repaying debts to those nasty old western democracies INSTEAD OF feeding their citizens?
I don't have a problem with forgiving the debt. Hell, if they're that poor we'll never get paid anyway, and I wouldn't want people to STARVE to pay a debt. Forgive the debt. Today. Now. Suits me fine.
Go ahead and denounce me as harsh, cruel, uncaring, evil, and heartless, because that is what everyone says about people who see the truth in the situation in Africa.
But POVERTY ain't the freakin problem! You could give them $500 BILLION and they'd starve to death with that too.
You could send the every single ounce of excess agricultural production from the U.S. and they'd STILL starve. You could even restart all the farms that lay fallow and went under for the last 30 years and send them all that could be grown on that and they'd still starve.
You figure out how to change their culture and you'll solve the problems. Convince the 1/3 of the 10 year olds that are having sex not to. Convince the males that having sex with a 6 year old virgin won't cure AIDS. Convince the tribal leaders to stop their atrocities and stop stealing every bit of supplies sent to them and devote their energies towards solving their own problems. THEN maybe money will help. Of course, you'll be villified for changing their culture instead of financing their self driven self destruction. But good luck anyway.
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Originally posted by lazs2
"
We are blamed today for slaughtering the lifestyle of the indians... the hippies of the plains who had a similar death rate and were every bit as poor as the negoes in africa...
lazs
Very good comparison.
Interestingly enough. both were doing just fine til lthe white man showed up
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I apologize. $1 a day. You will not live long on a dollar a day.
Indians didn't live on money, they lived off of the land (fr a helluva lot longer than the US has existed, including the Jamestown, and 1620-on).
The Indians had no Death Rate toll of this magnitude.
Karaya
Same with the africans..till the white man showed up LOL
We have done almost as much harm to these people in the name of "helping" them then we would have when we were trying to hurt them.
In both cases they lost their self sufficiancy do in large part to the white mans greed and insistance they give up their savagery all become good and modern Christians.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The whole Live 8 thing is for the "elimination of debt" which is easier to accomplish than most would have you believe.
Karaya
Which can bve easily done with the mere stroke of a pen.