Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on September 14, 2001, 10:14:00 PM
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Thanks for stopping by today.. you delivered many appreciated words of encouragement, I brought a truckload of socks. We're all doing what we can... but;
I have a request, If I may be so bold to ask.
The carnage demands a response, and I'd like you to consider carefully the measure of that response.. and it's consequences to Americans not only in uniform, but civilians here at home and abroad.
30 years ago we learned the futility of the use of an organized force against a diffuse enemy on his home ground, to the tune of 52,000 funeral dirges. Let us not repeat that disaster. Also, let us not put further at risk the stability of the world or the safety of our civilians.
I offer you another solution.
You have at your disposal weapons of mass destruction... and weapons of mass disorder.
Since Afganistans current regime is apparently unwilling to allow the majority of it's citizens to join the civilized nations of the world, and rather prefers and intends to serve as a rallying cry to other Islamic Fundalmentalist States I suggest you do not invade... but rather simply deny them the fruits of civilization.
You have in your arsenal the ability to disrupt and deny communications beyond that of a signal fire or jungle drum in their nation, and thereby deny communications to the terrorists they train and harbor via use of a Directed EMP Pulse, generated by a sub-orbital nuclear detonation over the city of Kabul.
A low- orbit focused EMP detonation would not directly harm the life of a single Moslem, nor disturb a single sacred artifact yet it would render useless the fruits of technology and civilization that the Afgan government has been only too glad to use against us at their convienience.
I would also suggest that your follow up the use of an EMP Pulse with a total and complete air, land and financial blockade of that or any nation that chooses to not deliver up the terrorists and/or their supporters. By "Blockade" I mean a TOTAL blockade. Nothing in, nothing out. No Trade. No Succor, no medicine, no food.
Declare COVENTRY.
Make it clear that Iran and Iraq are next, should they choose to oppose us, and fail to accede immediately to UN inspection, search and compliance with current directives.
Mr. President.. this time we were lucky. The governments of Iran and Iraq are currently developing Nuclear capability. The next attack may take 500,000 American lives... rather than just 52,000... or 5,200.
Stop them. Play the sane nuclear card... EMP the bastards back to the stone age they so insistently seem to desire.. while you still can.
God Bless America.
SRA, NY 9/14/01
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Hang,
It won't worki. Like ants they will scuttle accross the borders and move from there.
A nuke isn't the answer unless you want to call it end game for the globe. It might not be us that starts the exchange but it will come.
I understand the feeling I want them gone too but that isn't the way. I am afraid we'll have to do it the old fashioned way then depend on our allies to help seal them up economically. These animals like binladin have their money outside the country, we need to find it, freeze it and seal him off from it.
Mav
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"focused EMP detonation"
Is such a thing possible?
Blockades dont work. Castro has proved it.
But I like the first idea.
How about cultural assimilation? Invade, occupy and slowly introduce the american way of life to them. Introduce free scholarship programs so that high school and college students can come to the US to study and live. After a decade or so, we'll see if their "cause" still exists. Sound "wrong"? Welp, its better than killing them or making millions life in suffering because their leaders have their dicks up their noses. Also brings a lot of economic benefits, making these nations protectorates of the US and managing them would mean an end to the US mid-east oil dependancy problem.
Operation Bene Gesserit! (brownie points to whoever ID's the name!)
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Mav, if we don't hit 'em first and hardest, they WILL use nukes on us when they get them. It's not a question of "If".. just "When".
We just got a demonstration of what a suicide attack looks like.. why cannot you concieve of a madman with a finger on a nuclear button.. and the results?
An EMP hit gives us a better chance.. it will most likely make it impossible for them to continue either a development program or deploy tacticly as an organised force without anything more advanced than an AK47.
Strip them of the vestiges of technology.
EMP the bastards.
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Technology? In Afghanistan?
Nope...
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Yes, Focused EMP is a reality.
Cuba saw one week of "blockade".. and that was just shipping with missiles on board.. What your refering too is an "Embargo".
What I'm proposing is a complete and total blockade, right dowm to the camel trails over the mountains. NOTHIN in. No phones, no electricity, no fuel, no food, no medicine, no NOTHING. From ANYWHERE. Cut 'em, off. Completely.
Any nation that attempts trade with the enemy becomes the enemy. Yah, this means France, too.
NO MORE TRADE WITH ROUGE STATES.
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Sandman..
Yes, technology in Afganistan. Ours. Bought or stolen from us or others. Cell phones. PC's and the internet. TV. Radio.
And they are using 'em. Against us.
Deny them the vestiges of civilization. If somebody turns on a light, then there is technology. Lets put out the lights.
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France is an ally.
It's a small treaty... maybe you've heard of NATO... you know... that little group that has pledged their support of the United States and has agreed to Article 5 because of this attack.
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
We are in for a long haul and I think we'll need all the friends we can muster, France included.
Oh... and as far as I know, the Taliban is already against all of those things that an EMP would affect.
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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I’d rather not irradiate a planet I live on.
A focused EMP pulse is a theory to my knowledge it has never been tested. Right now the teams are choosing sides and it looks like the whole world against Afghanistan and maybe Iraq. I think we can take them. I’d rather see every population center in these countrys leveled with conventional weapons if necessary to ensure they don't fire a nuke (if that’s a serious threat) then to have anyone fire a nuke anywhere.
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Whoa nelly! I'm not an expert on EMPs.. I know it would disable mostly anything requirign electricity. But.. it doesn't disable them permanently does it? Can you just turn it back on like a car engine?
I dont know abou the "wait for them to fire first" idea. (detonation on a something like a city, not an atmospheric detonation) Doesn't that sound a bit extreme Hang? Even if they *do* have nuclear capability and they *do* use it.. my only guess is that it would lead to much much more terrible outcomes. Again, I'm no expert.. but I feel that is a path we shouldn't think about going down. Conventional = safe :)
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nawwwww cheese....hang's pissed.
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Sorry Sand..
France is currently Iran's biggest trading partner. It was THEM that sold 'em the stuff and the techs to build a breeder reactor.
NATO signatories notwithstanding..
NO MORE TRADE WITH ROUGE STATES!!
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Hell.. a high school student in the U.S. damn near built a breeder reactor...
http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html (http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html)
If I recall history correctly, were it not for France, there would be no United States in the first place.
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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Statement of
Dr. George W. Ullrich
Deputy Director
Defense Special Weapons Agency
One of our earliest experiences with HEMP dates back to the resumption of atmospheric nuclear testing in 1962 following a three year testing moratorium. Starfish Prime, a 1.4 megaton device, was detonated at an altitude of 400 kilometers over Johnston Island. Failures of electronic systems resulted in Hawaii, 1,300 kilometers away from the detonation. Street lights and fuzes failed on Oahu and telephone service was disrupted on the island of Kauai. Subsequent tests with lower yield devices produced electronic upsets on an instrumentation aircraft that was approximately 300 kilometers away from the detonations.
Full text, Congressional record. (http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1997_h/h970716u.htm)
I can assure you, the component capability, directional focus, and effect area are all well known. They've been toying with it since 1962.
Sand, it matters not a whit that any school kid IN THIS COUNTRY can build a breeder reactor with plans from the internet. What matters is "our friends" like France in the past, would and WILL sell to Rouge states.
Lets deny France that Market, and deny Iran that Internet.
NO MORE TRADE WITH ROUGE STATES!! PUT OUT THAT LIGHT!
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
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This idea will not work, Hang. Afghanistan doesn't have any technology. They don't even allow a deck of cards into the country. Communications, and perhaps a few refrigerators, would stop working, and that's about it.
What you are about to see is pretty straight forward. Either, we move in with Special Forces (in large numbers) and extract bin Laden, or we will open with NATO. NATO will send the government there a message.
AFGHANISTAN! WE WANT OSAMA BIN LADEN.
HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT YOUR COUNTRY?
When, they don't respond like we want, we will invade. Where you make your mistake is in the presumption that the government does not intend to win (as in your pointing out Vietnam). Westmoreland asked Nixon every day: "What day do you want us to win this war?" He never got an answer.
I suspect... well I'm not going to spoil any surprises.
OUT.
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Voss ]
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Voss.. yer wrong.
Just saw the Taliban on TV. Didn't you?? They go to Pakistan to film that? Last time I looked there were lights on in Kabul. A phone system. Internet access.. PC's, printers, printing presses, Radio, TV, and Microwave toasters. And CNN. Or did the words of an aggrieved and exceptionally pissed off America get to Kabul's evacuating and terrified citizens by flashing mirrors and smoke signals?
I see you accept the presence of refrigerators.
Yes, the "official" line denys technology in Afghanistan... for everybody but the government and it's cronies.. Lets turn it all off for them. Make 'em real happy.
Then smile REAL big at Iran, Iraq and Syria and inquire...
"Next??"
Lets just switch the place completly off.
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
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Hang, thanks. I just found out who watches CNN. I often wondered where they get their rating numbers :)
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Lets turn it all off for them. Make 'em real happy. Then smile REAL big at Iran, Iraq and Syria and inquire...
This is an outstanding idea. Would completely
disrupt said country's command and control. They'd be unable to organize an effected defence again anything. Units in the field would be in a complete blackout with regards to what or where. No communications, No transport, No supply, most of their weapons systems knocked out without firing a shot. The ones that are left would be static. How could they move them? They would have nothing left other that their AK's. Can you say panic?
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: newguy2 ]
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Hangtime: FYI internet is already banned in Iran. They only allow limited use through government controlled filters.
Usually most nerve centers in governments are EMP protected, so the hit would focus on the few transistor radio's and a couple PC's they might have in afghanistan.
That country is war ridden and they already live in extremely privitive conditions (except the small priviledged part) and doing things like that would only piss them off, nothing else.
How would you plan to control commerce done through footpaths over the mountain range? Nobody else has managed to stop it, what makes you think you could? You'd have to set half of the population of US to stand in guard at 2km altitude on the side of the mountain.
Any measures that would horrify the people of US are meaningless for the people there.. The nomad culture has never based on any western achievement nor do they even care. It's enough for them to have TNT and Kalashnikovs and camels/horses to move around. EMP won't do jack toejam to those basics.
So, to put that country to its knees, it's imperative to invade it and seize control of EVERY small village all over the country. Unless you do that, the fundamentalists will just keep on traveling across the desert/mountains like they have been doing for thousands of years and making attacks to the US people or even US soil. Guerilla warfare is extremely difficult to stop.
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: MrRiplEy ]
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To wage war OUTSIDE their country they first need to aquire the means to do so.
Just as we need to aquire the means to wage war inside their country.
Yes, we can watch every god-damned trail and camel path in and out. There arn't that many. It's surrounded by mountains with a VERY limited number of access routes. It's not as if we don't know where those routes are.. we've used them ourselves.
It would require a lot less manpower to seal that place up and bomb every building flat than it would to conquer it.
As for Iran and Iraq.. these are semi-modern countries that enjoy the fruits of their exports. Money is DATA. Shut it off; sieze ALL assets extant to the nation, cut off all external access, all egress. Nothin in; nothin out. From anywhere. We can and SHOULD simply divorce them from the rest of civilization. By force, by day, by night, by whatever means necessary.
Turn off the lights.. kill their internal comms, support and supply their internal adversaries and ruthlessly pursue every connection they attempt to use outside their borders.
The Kurds have been lookin for a homeland for centuries. Lets give 'em one.
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Well, Hangtime, you seem to be pretty confident about your cause. All I can say is Good luck!
Mountains easy to control? Or the desert for that matter? I wouldn't want to be amongst the ones trying. I disagree with you on that.
Of course the afghans will have a harder time harassing controlling troops if they use up all the portable stinger missiles your government has kindly been supplying them with during the conflict with russia..
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Hangtime - do your homework on the current state of Afghanistan.
You have a country verging on starvation, whose infrastructure is virtually non-existant thanks to decades of conflict.
The situation is so bad that Afghans have been streaming over the border for years into neighbouring Pakistan. There are now millions of them in refugee camps there.
And now you want to 'nuke' one of the world's primary 'stone-age nations'.
There has to be another way.
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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Not only that... think about the political consequences of such an act.
I'm sure Russia and Pakistan would just be thrilled to have a nuclear deviced used near their countries.
The United States has sanction to act, but I wouldn't consider that sanction unlimited. I suspect that the rest of the world would recoil in horror at such an event and the support that we need would evaporate.
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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Would you rather see the US involved in a ground war in that nation? Replete with a vulnerable chain of supply that spans half the globe? The Soviet Union, SHARING a border with Afghanistan was utterly humiliated trying to subdue that nation...
I cannot concieve of a more horrendous way to eliminate another generation of young americans.
I'm not calling for turning it into a Nuclear Wasteland; Hiroshima style.. I'm describing utilising a weapon that harms not a hair on a single moslems head. I'm simply descsribing divorcing them from civilization once and for all.
PUT OUT THE LIGHTS. EMP, then BLOCKADE.
Yah, I'm hugely pissed... deeply saddened, and extemly determined to see justice done, and the threat forever eliminated. Lets make the price of their barbarity beyond their ability to reply. If they have no voice... they cannot scream.
Shut 'em down for good.
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Hang, I dont think the EMP will be useful, read this:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003136 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003136)
Just for some more infos.
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Bin Laden dont use any modern communications. You should read his interview, there is pretty good description how the Laden organization works and why its so damn hard to suppress.
They have only basic weaponry, grenades, mines, ak47:s, stingers and rpg:s. Ive seen some ZU-23:s also mounted on the truck. Their primary movement method is by foot or camel. EMP effect would be the same as for the Vietkong soldiers.
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Originally posted by Tac:
Operation Bene Gesserit!
Dune, Frank Herbert.
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: VAQ ]
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Dear Mr President:
Kill the freakin SOB's, every last one of them!
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Originally posted by Tuomio:
Bin Laden dont use any modern communications. You should read his interview, there is pretty good description how the Laden organization works and why its so damn hard to suppress.
They have only basic weaponry, grenades, mines, ak47:s, stingers and rpg:s. Ive seen some ZU-23:s also mounted on the truck. Their primary movement method is by foot or camel. EMP effect would be the same as for the Vietkong soldiers.
It's not the weapons, its the terrain..
Then again if we killed their camels, how could they reproduce?
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Voss.. yer wrong.
No, Hang, I'm not.
Unlike America, where every sin is explored and tested, Afghanistan has attempted to make religion law. It will never work, especially for anyone outside of Afghanistan and just like 'Animal Farm' you can see the incongruities within, but your idea simply won't work. It is pure fantasy.
Just south, and to the east of your primary target is the capital of Pakistan. How do you think they would respond to the first nuclear explosion?
It's not camels, either, Eagler. It's goats. ;)
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I'm with Eagler on this. Despite the fact that killing religious fanatics may escalate their resolve, it is a chance you must take. Allowing these turds to continute their strategies WILL create an escalation of resolve with each and every victory.
Kill 'em!
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Much more effective to just use the Afghan homeland as a playground for NATO special forces for the next 50 years.
Anyone tries to enter/exit or organize these people becomes a target.
The land there would become a graveyard and desert in 10 years or less. Of course THEN the problem would just migrate to other countries.
My mantra:
"No simple solutions exist for complicated situations. If they did, the situations would not be complicated"
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You don't even have to bomb, nuke, or invade whatever country that harbors terroist. The best way to stop it in my opinon is to find the responsable parties, (each time for EVERY TERROIST ACT) and elimanate the leader and parties responsable. You will have the problem of creating more maryters and more fuel for terroist, but if we are consistant, and decisive there support and leadership will fail. I fully belive that i would rather make mayrters for their "cause aka=Jyhad" than make maryters for our cause aka=anti-terroism. We can neaver bee 100% SAFE and still enjoy our liberties, and freedoms, but I belive that we should not lose our right to live just because we are afraid of being targets by other terroist group. Notably while we are dealing with them in our backyard.
Neither should we adopt the belif that all muslims are terriost and that all "ragheads" need to die. Just the leaders like bin laden.
I joined the US armed forces to protect the way we live and our/my families. I will gladly do whatever I have to stop this.
oh yeah and by the way, this isn't russain...Im a friend that was reading this post and felt the need to responed, so don't refer to this as "russain"..MY loggon name (when i get this site on my compter will be r2rknot)
thank you and of course
GOD BLESS AMERICA
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Blow all the offending bastard to hell but first send a PORN VIRUS TO ALL THEIR COMPUTERS SO THEY CANT diddlyING USE THEM FOR FEAR OF SEEING PORN THEN WHEN THEY DO SEE IT NOTIFY THEIR FRIENDS IN IRAN AS TO THE PROBLEM AND MAYBE WELL GET IRAN TO BLOW AFGHANISTAN TO HELL!!!!!!!!! NOW THAT WOULD BE SWEET!
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Err... Sorrow, the land already is a desert and what there is in the way of infrastructure is a heap of rubble thanks to decades of war. And what happens to the average Afghan (who are present in depleted numbers, since millions have left for Pakistani refugee camps) during your 10 year NATO exercise?
Hobodog - Congratulations! You win top prize in this month's 'Most stupid, inane post' competition. As a serious point, it was ludicrous; as a joke... well, how ironic.
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My apologies gents.. It's been a heluva week, I suppose I'm still in shock. I still see the world thru angry eyes, and I also dread the thought of more American troops on the ground, far from home, in a set piece war that cannot be won by conventional means.
I'm trying desperatly to think 'outside the box', my mind reels at the thought of the upcomming carnage.. to our kids in particular if our leaders don't start thinking outside that very same box.
My parents and their contemporaries were faced with a war of this magnitude... a 'good' war, a war that had to be fought, a war that had to be won. And we saw that 'just cause' was of itself inadquite; poor decisions, lousy leadrship, insuffecient application of force wrought the losses of many that would otherwise have not perished. Our leaders learned, and we finished it with one heluva bang. Hirioshima. With the distance wrought by time and history, it seems that awsome decision was just.
When my 'time' came, it was a diffrent war. Not our finest hour as a nation, by any means. The price was high. We seemed to have learned nothing, we lost many many thousands and left that war unfulfilled so as not to offend the sensibilities of 'the international community'.
Now; once again, America has been challanged, and this time our cause is just, the need great. Good vs Evil, once again; and this time the stakes will be even higher. Our young generation will be tested in a fire of porportions that simply boggle the mind.
I wish to see the technocricy, the fruits of our austounding technology used to its optimum effect...
If that means we schedule a big light to appear in the eastern skys, then gawdammit; so be it. And this time; the hell with the sensibilities of the 'international community' say I.
Whatever we do; we should not be unwilling to use the tools, the technology, the terror of it and the overwhelming awe it represents to those unfamiliar with it to maximum effect to preserve the lives and future or our young people.
Outside the box. We HAVE to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. Or our young men and women will be comming home in one.
Thanks for listening...
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all i have to say is i agree hangtime
no more american blood should be spilled
to fight these basterds. if we have the tech
to stop there tech, without losing more american lives then i say use it. i say NUKE THE SUMsqueakES back to the hell they came from. John C Yates
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Yeah, I'm angry.
Doesn't do any good.
Be cool, be determined, do the research. Skip the rage; save it for when the sword arm is actually in motion. Then cut even deeper with it.
This one is going to last 100 years, if not more.
They are obviously ready to fight with any tool, any trick, any method to the very last man.
Are we?
What this country stands for, what I hope this country IS... precludes the use of weapons of mass destruction on any population that can't be proven as clearly... beyond even the tiniest shred of doubt... involved, clearly responsible and clearly a continuing threat.
That WILL NOT BE THE CASE in this war. We are not going to get that kind of proof.
This is going to be like that dumb-ass game of "whack-a-mole" you see in the game arcades. There's 10 likely holes they can pop out of and you will have to watch all the holes at once. When they pop up, you have to immediately strike hard and fast. We'll miss some, we'll get some. But this game will have no time limit, no end. They'll keep popping up.
We're going to lose a lot of our sons and daughters. Perhaps yours; perhaps mine.. but definitely we're going to lose some.
I have nothing but dread for the coming years. This will probably still be going on long after I'm pushing up daisies.
On the other hand, I have nothing but resolve. They are a cancer deep within the body of the people of the world. They must be cut out, however painful it becomes.
All of them. Any political cause. Everywhere. At whatever the cost. Ruthlessly.
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By all means, use nukes if you get other nations support for it.
If you nuke somebody without support, you are in biiig trouble..Thats just how the world goes, action, reaction..Somebody near Afghanistan surely has good reasons to represent, why they dont want you to use nukes.
If you dont think that action chain forward before acting, you will be like hedgehogs who are ran over by a car.
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Agreed, Toad.
[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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Skip the rage; save it for when the sword arm is actually in motion. Then cut even deeper with it.
Aye. And mind that follow-thru. :D
That WILL NOT BE THE CASE in this war. We are not going to get that kind of proof.
Aye again. If we wait for 'proof' we will be populating graveyards with our citizens. They have made it very clear they have no qualms about creating a few martyrs in the process. "Due Process" with these folks is a cruel hoax upon us all. "Launch on Warning" has never sounded more sane.
This is going to be like that dumb-ass game of "whack-a-mole" you see in the game arcades. There's 10 likely holes they can pop out of and you will have to watch all the holes at once. When they pop up, you have to immediately strike hard and fast. We'll miss some, we'll get some. But this game will have no time limit, no end. They'll keep popping up.
Time to start pulgging some of the obvious holes I think. It gets real hard for the enemy to move on us if we deny them the ability to move at all. The fewer the number of holes, the easier it gets for us, wouldn't you think?
I can think of a few holes this world has that need some serious and spectacular plugging right now.
[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
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Use of 'all means at our disposal' as indicated by the State Department, The Defense Department, the Chief Exeuctive and the Joint Session of Congress does not in any way imply that we need the approval of any other nation on this planet to do what we think is necessary.
With what ever we think is appropriate.
When we think it's appropriate.
Where we think it's appropriate.
"By all means at our Disposal" means just that.
If some other nation or society thinks they can WIN a war againt us and are willing to put their existence as a nation or society on the line in support of any terrorist nation that we are reducing to rubble and tears, then get in line. We'll vist you too.
"International Opinion", be damned. Nations of the World, you've been put on notice. Put up; or shut up.
So, as I see it; the world has a choice. Get on board, join us in this fight, or get on the list of targets. It's time to pick a side. No more diddlyin 'neutrality', no more providing havens, no more sales of arms to or trade with terrorist nations.
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[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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Let the witchhunt begin, eh?
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The sooner we face we're not talking about nations, the better. Maybe Afghanistan & Irak are those kind of nations, but they are definitely the exceptions. Funds for terrorist operations come from Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Algeria, Morocco, Iran, to name just a few. They will keep coming even if you nuke Afghanistan. So you won't solve even a piece of the problem.
It's crucial you make justice out of that b*stard, but, no doubt about it, given funds and willingness, another one will fill the hole.
IMHO, the first thing is make due justice as fast as we can, with bin Laden and/or whoever else is involved. The second one is to cut their funding using whatever means available. From intelligence to occupation. The third one is taking out the will. That will mean lot of dialogue, and face a lot of thorny issues.
Failing to do all the above will mean, at the very least, a temporary victory. The problem will surge worse in the future.
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Funds for terrorist operations come from Saudi Arabia, Gulf States, Algeria, Morocco, Iran, to name just a few.
Hey you missed one really big spender! These fruitloops will fund, train and equip almost anyone, no matter how mad or evil, using all the time-honoured amoral methods - drug smuggling, arms deals. Past beneficiaries & achievements include: the Taliban, Osama Bin Ladin, quite a few terrorist groups in Latin America, sponsorship of several groups who make their political opponents disappear and turn up later in mass graves, a bit of gun-running past the UN blockade to armies in Kosovo:
Somehow, I don't think this lot will be brought to justice, though (http://www.cia.gov/)
[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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Oh, I see Hangtime... we may risk American troops. But who gives a flying f*ck about that Afghanis, eh? I mean, they're all fundamentalist muslim nutcases who deserve to be even more downtrodden and destitute. Sure...
You speak of justice, but you speak of is simply hiding more evil behind the veil of justice. The ends NEVER justify the means, and the ends in this case wouldn't be justified either.
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Time to come up for air and look around you.
The military is already in motion, in case you haven't noticed.
The National Command Authority (the President) has consulted his advisors and it sure looks like the compass needle is pointing at Afganistan. The House and Senate have given the green light to just about any action and given it in advance.
The "government" (if you can call it that) of Afganistan has been basically told to hand over Bin Laden. The Pakistanis went as emissaries and got rebuffed. The President told the Taliban on TV that he was serious.
So, you don't need a huge IQ to figure this one out. Either the Taliban is going to hand him over or we are going in to get him.
It isn't going to be very nice for either side. But I'd bet my hat, cane and spats that it's coming down in the relatively short term.
Bin Laden or War of some kind with Afganistan, like it or not.
Time to figure out which side you're going to be on... there won't be any national referendum on this one.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Time to come up for air and look around you.
The military is already in motion, in case you haven't noticed.
The National Command Authority (the President) has consulted his advisors and it sure looks like the compass needle is pointing at Afganistan. The House and Senate have given the green light to just about any action and given it in advance.
The "government" (if you can call it that) of Afganistan has been basically told to hand over Bin Laden. The Pakistanis went as emissaries and got rebuffed. The President told the Taliban on TV that he was serious.
So, you don't need a huge IQ to figure this one out. Either the Taliban is going to hand him over or we are going in to get him.
It isn't going to be very nice for either side. But I'd bet my hat, cane and spats that it's coming down in the relatively short term.
Bin Laden or War of some kind with Afganistan, like it or not.
Time to figure out which side you're going to be on... there won't be any national referendum on this one.
Yes, I know... I feel like a fly trying to stop a juggernaut. A juggernaut that I don't think needs to be stopped, merely controlled. I just don't want us to do something we'll regret later, and the chances of that happening are high.
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In Vietnam, had we sent in only spec ops troops to take care of the leaders and CnC, would we have won the war? I mean North V, Cambodia and Laos, too.
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Originally posted by ispar:
I just don't want us to do something we'll regret later, and the chances of that happening are high.
Well who the heck does?
However, please direct me to a link on a war, any real war, where everything turned out as planned, no screw-ups were encountered, no innocent lives were lost and everything turned out just peachy in the end.
Hate to be the one to break it to you, but real life is knocking on all our doors. No Hollywood endings coming up.
Take heart... the human race has been here before...
"...I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this government: "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat."
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival." Winston Churchill, May 13, 1940 to House of Commons.
There really is nothing new under the sun.
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In Vietnam, had we sent in only spec ops troops to take care of the leaders and CnC, would we have won the war? I mean North V, Cambodia and Laos, too.
We had a special op plan.. I think it was called Pheonix.. ran for quite awile..
Possibly.. been noted that the atrocities on our POW's ceased with 48 hours of uncle Ho's death. Only after he died did SERIOUS negotiatons begin to end the war.
If Ho's material supplies were cut off completly and the bombing effort allowed to strike all targets on the proscribed list the war would have been over in 1969.
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Tactical Nuke... God that makes me even more scared then ANY airplane with terrorists will. Have you ANY F***ing idea what will happen if the US will use that?!?!?!
Never thought about all the nukes the USSR 'disassemled'? What if ONE of these ended up with a terrorist like Bin L.?
Do you think the rest of the world will just sit by and watch the US nukes rogues states?
Trust me, I abhore what happened in NY and Washington but if you are gone us nukes to 'right wrongs' you are gonne drag the whole world in WW3.
Broes
Holland
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Hmmm appears to me you chaps still don't really have much of a clue who's responsible, but it's comforting you already have your Oswald... oops... I mean Osama :D
inneresting article on some of the hijackers (http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT30FZWZRRC&live=true)
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Broes, ever think of what will happen if the bad guys use a tactical nuke? Any reason to believe they won't? Any reason to be believe they don't already have one or are working hard on getting one?
Dead, Bin Laden is just the beginning of taking out the trash. He's already on the list for the African embassy bombings. There's going to be others in any event.
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I thought we were fighting Terrorism? You can go over to Afgahnistan and nuke 'em if ya want but the Terrorists (remember we wanted to fight Terrorists?) have already left Afgahnistan a long time ago.
31.000 Fundamentalists are currently living right next door here in Germany (if my numbers are correct). They are recieving high quality Education in OUR schools, they are living in the USA and recieving high quality flight education in YOUR schools.
These punks are spread out all over the world - those in Afgahnistan are of the least interest to us I would say.
How many people die to the Mafia each year? According to your logic we should nuke Italy?
How many people die to Drugs each year? According to your logic we should nuke Columbia?
If you take a close look at how the "war" against crime (be it Mafia or Drug Lords) is waged, you'll get an insight of how the war against Terrorists will be fought.
Afgahnistan lost 2 million people in their 10 year war against Russia.
2 Million People. That was ok - it was their war - now its personal - lets nuke the ones who survived. Amen.
I can fully understand that you want revenge - but this is serious - We all have to work together to seek and hunt down the wide spread network of Terrorists all over the world.
Why? Because it may sooth your souls to get some sort of revenge by killing someone, anyone - but it is even more important to stop those that are preparing to launch THE NEXT ATTACK on us, those that are currently living in... Holland, France, Japan, Texas....?
Effdub
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Perhaps I didn't state my opinion clearly enough.
Here's another shot.
I believe before this is over.... and I think we're talking in decades, 10, 20, 30 years... a nuke will most definitely be used.
I also believe, without a single doubt, that the "terrorist" side will make first use of the nuke.
Whether that in turn generates an "in kind" response remains to be seen.
In short, I have never thought it a question of "if" but merely of "when". I am also certain of "who".
In the game of "Clue" style, it will be the terrorists, with a nuke, somewhere in the USA, within the next three to four decades.
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Toad.
A terrorist nuclear detonation in contitnental US is probably a forgone conclusion in most peoples minds but I would think the next 3-4 years is just as likely as 3-4 decades from now. For that matter why not 3-4 days from now or 3-4 hours from now.
What can be done to prevent it? What should be done? Are 30 million American people more valuable that 300 million people from other nations?
If yes, why?
If not, why?
Yeager
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I heard on the news there are 4 USSR mini nukes still missing from thier disarmament..They HAVE to be somewhere<I am looking at USSR Borders..Hmm>
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Originally posted by Yeager:
If not, why?
Life as no price neither weight so 30 == 300 == 3 == 100000
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I'm a proponent of using the benign side effects of a nuke... EMP. No lives lost, no buildings damaged, no fallout.
Nobody here has suggested that the US use a tactical or strategic 'traditional' nuke.
Just take these folks that profess to wish in the stone age to the place they wanna be.
With no functional technology AT ALL remaining they would seem to be one hell of a lot less of a threat.
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Yeager, I think this will follow a typical escalating path.
My personal presumption would be that the the terrs won't resort to nukes unless the world-wide (I hope) coalition of "good guys" begins to get the upper hand. If the terrs get into a desperate situation, where they are cornered, with no sanctuary and and the "law" closing in... then they might use the weapon that will earn them eternal damnation in the eyes of the world regardless of any political considerations.
Further, I don't expect the "good guys" to really get a handle on this problem for decades... and that's how I came to my hypothesis.
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[/i]'...benign side effects of a nuke...'[/i]
I wonder if we are talking about the same weapon... The nuke i know doesn't have ANY benign sides... Think about what the western world would think if such a benign effect would be used above their country.
Jeez... give a kid a gun and he will think it's would be a nice idea to use...
Broes
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Well Broes, if the choice is continued terroist attacks on our country vs a big light in their sky followed by the Taliban's Mercedes limo's and Satelite TV failure, along with the redering of every whoopeeed electronic device in that flea infested toejam hole inoperative... (which would include the chips in their stinger missles)
Send them the 'light'. You are more than welcome to squeak about it all you want. :)
If yer real upset about it and headed on over there and voulenteered to give 'em a hand, I'm sure they'd oblige by making you a human shield.
The rest of us don't give a toejam. :D
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Now you just need to figure out a way to keep that EMP within the borders of Afghanistan and you'll be set. Nevermind the satelights that are orbitting overhead.
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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Occupy Kabul, send out anti-terrorist teams to kill off terrorists. And flood the area with humanitarian relief, and try and win over the average Afghanistani's heart and mind. Start instituting democratic reforms and infrastructure. Hey, if the average Afghanistani hates the Taliban already... Turn Afghanistan into a happy, contributing member of the international community. Simplistic? Yep. Worth a shot? Sure.