Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: blur on September 15, 2001, 09:32:00 AM
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(The following was written by an Afghani writer who lives in the Bay Area. I think the following offers some interesting insights into this area of the world.}
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean
killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,
but "We're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we
do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the
belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am
from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My hatred
comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that these
people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something
must be done about those monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics
who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think
Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in
the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.
They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone
would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of
international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A
few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled
orphans in Afghanistan-a country with no economy, no food. There are
millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in
mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all
destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan
people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age".
Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.
Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?
Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their
hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine
and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least
get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat,
only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe
the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too
fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping
bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did this
horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the
Taliban-by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true
fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with
ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be
done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as
needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing
innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on
the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die
fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much
bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have
to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of
Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?
You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and
the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants.
That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right
there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem
ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the
West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those
lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better
from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West
would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and
millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?
Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
In Peace,
Tamim Ansary
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I totally agree with the use of ground forces. The "smart" techology is both indescriminant and impersonal. Smart weapons will be used to take out many defense systems, and I am sorry if there will be Afghani regulars manning them that have no political ties to the Taliban.
The one part I disagree with the is the need to take Pakistan to accomplish this goal. Russia has already pledged military support in whatever reprisals we seek. They have the greatest airlift/troop delivery capacity in the world (Thankyou "Wings of the Red Star"). That could easily be utilized.
Basically... its going to boil down to one simple thing: We are going to get Bin Ladin and we are going to get the Taliban. Please stay out of the way or you are likely to get hurt. I hope the Afghani people see with clarity what decision needs to be made there.
AKDejaVu
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Very interesting Blur, thank you.
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I also agree with ground troops and... I feel that any country that harbors terrorists and in public, refuses to hand em over, deserves whatever collateral damage happens to em.
We have been told that the official government will not turn over known (and wanted)terrorists. I consider such a hostile government to be a threat to our ground troops... I would, at the very least like to have all afghan military capability destroyed before sending in ground troops. I do not advocate killing civilians for vengence sake but if some are killed while taking out military targets.... such is the way of living in a country that is at war with the civilized world.
IMO... the government of afganistan should be classified as hostile untill proven otherwise. any ground troops we send in should be secure from any afghan government military action. Any furture harboring of terrorists whould be met in the same manner. No matter what country is involved. You are either with us or at war with us in this war on terrorism.
The afghans can cooperate and help taking out these nests and help in assuring that they are unwelcome in the future or they can risk collateral damage. Not a lot of options here.
lazs
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good post
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics
who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a
plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think
Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in
the concentration camps."
I am sure the ppl who have their fingers on the buttons, the war eagles, are well aware of the facts presented in this article as well as others. I trust the leaders of this country and its military to do the right thing. The question is, is what's right for America, right for the "global" community? How long will this alliance last? Time will tell..
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Actually only thing guerilla soldier need is ak47. They dont need mcdonalds or catering services that american ground troops need. Missiles and bombs are ineffective against scattered guerilla troops especially in the Afghani rocky mountains, where theres lots of natural bomb shelters to duck in.
Thats why you have to have Afghanistan regular people support behind you, otherwise you would suffer heavy casualties. I hope Nato succeeds in that. Terrorists have already shown, that they can attack US at will, almost anywhere they want. Only way to evade it would be complete closing of borders, which would be very bad for your economy.
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Very good post.
Unfortunately, I am going to have to be a bit pessimistic about what we will do. I do not think our country has the stomach for a ground war.
Too many people are too concerned with more loss of American life. I too am concerned, but I would gladly shoulder arms in a ground battle. I would proudly fight and die for this cause.
I have a lot to lose in a ground war. My son is military and they are expediting his training as we speak.
But if a ground war will make a safer place for the future generations, then bring it on. Someone has to draw the line. The longer we wait the worse it will get.
I am very glad we have people from those torn countries to let us know how they feel and what we could or should do. It is good insight.
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I agree it won't be easy or quick and will require the creation of some new thinking and tactics. Since the goal by our enemy is our extinction, there is nothing to bargain over. Our house is infested and we may never get them all, but we can cut down their numbers and contain them.
I have no bone to pick with innocents. I want to grind the bones of the guilty and their associates into dust.
Tuomio, American military personnel need McDonalds and catering services?!? You need to be slapped.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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They dont need mcdonalds or catering services that american ground troops need.
Tuomio, you are an ass.
just because we choose to provide comforts to our military when possable, don't think they are soft or unprepared.
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Good post Blur. I went to college with an Afghani fellow and it's the same story...
Bin Laden has said before that he does indeed desire a war between all Muslim countries and the West. He might have started this war already though. :(
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Blur,
That is the first post I have seen from you that was worth reading.
In EVERY society there are those who do not have evil intent or act in that manner. We have no argument with them. Our response to the terrorists should and must be specific, targeted and thorough. The problem is getting them separated from the innocents. (After reading some posts regarding the taliban most of the talibs seem to be far from innocent IMO)
The actions taken so far diplomatically are designed to split the terrorists from their support. Since Pakistan seems to be cooperating we might be doing well in that regard.
The mobilization of the GLOBE against terrorism and those who espouse its use will go a long way to deny them sanctuary and help.
Mav
Tuomio, you have proven yourself to be extremely clueless. You might want to stop posting before you show yourself to be a total ass.
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Tuomio, you have proven yourself to be extremely clueless. You might want to stop posting before you show yourself to be a total ass.
Too late for that Mav ...the guys a real piece of work. In my present state of mind, I'd love to have a "face to face" discussion with him.
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We should enlist as many muslims as possible to the cause. We should go after any terrorism everywhere that our friends also suffer from.
The people of Afghanistan are in a very bad position. They suffer under Taliban. If we go after Ladin/Taliban, those fellows will use them as human shield to the utmost.
Before we persuade them we are helping them, we have to reach understanding with them and that may not be possible.
I wish I knew what could be done about it.
miko
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I have given this ordeal a great amount of thought. We are in a true catch 22 situation, if we do not not act and try to negotiate his capture there will be further terrorist attacks. If we go after him with a united front we will also have terrorsit attacks.
My biggest fear is NBC attacks in the USA if we go after him, also, if we dont go after him. Bin Laden has shown that life means nothing to him, other then himself. As Americans, or for that matter, any other Country that raises his dander will have more of there citizens killed. Now, I feel is the time to remove bin laden from the face of this earth and all his followers. There will be many deaths of both U.S. and other supporting countries as well as the Taliban and the people who are behind this Idiot. It's not going to go away either, until terrorist's are exterminated.
Patrick Swayze coined the phrase in Next to Kin that so reminds of the U.S.
You think your bad don't ya!!!
No sir, you ain't seen bad yet, But It's Coming!!!!!!!!!! Cleaner
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My problem with the "Its not the people. Its the leader" argument has always been the same. History has proven, time and again, that one or two men who are willing to trade there lives to do it, can kill anybody. After all, these rodents have shown no reluctance to trade there lives to kill unsuspecting people. Yet within the millions of people that live in these country's, there is not one man willing to trade his life to take one of these guys out. So, it comes down to a matter of will. If they don't have the will to remove these men, we do. If we are forced to kill civilians to do it...Well, they made there own bed.
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Re: a ground war.
While US technology is superior to that of the old Soviet Union, it still has the same weak spots. While US military personell might be better equipped and trained than the Taliban, they still suffer the same drawbacks as the Soviets.
The Taliban will get to choose when and how to strike. The Taliban have been doing this for years and years and are quite good at it. It's a low tech "army" that requires very little in terms of logicstical support. The US armed forces will need a lot of logistical support to pull off a war. And of course, its the lines of communications that'll be hit by the Talibans.
It'll cost a lot of lives to take temporary control. It'll cost a lot of lives to maintain in.
I doubt the US wants this, and even if they did it, it wouldn't stop terrorists from committing more horrendous acts.
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i see people posting only drawbacks to a
military intervention
i really would like to ask those people to also post a solution to this
here are some possibilities ,please add more if you have some and not always drawbacks of possible solutions
1. do nothing ...show the other face and bow our heads in guilt of what we did in the middle east in the past decades...i doubt that will ever happen,although that's what the bible says..give the other cheek
2.nuke em or carpetbomb then and watch on CNN while the plume is transmitted
live ....then go hide and wait
3.do pressure only through economic sanctions
and isolate the taliban regime...btw you would have to isolate saudi arabia pakistan and the emirates too cuz they recognize the taliban...that would nicely trigger a civil war in pakistan and give some nice nukes to them.India has some btw too :)and they have some discrepancies already.
4.Let UN handle this....for me that is like stretching the whole issue by months or even years so they can get reorganized...meanwhile we live in fear of more attacks
5.go in on the ground and eliminate the taliban regime and show these fanatics we can be fanatic too for our freedom..then smoke out mr laden...show these guys what we made off....prob is do we have the guts to do that?are europeans prepared to do it.....
i really hope so!!!
IMO we didnt learn from WWII...all the signs were there when taliban regime took over that place imposing horrific rules on women,branding hindus with signs that really make ya shiver,dynamiting cultural sites that will be lost forever for mankind....a little UN condemnation,a little media clip then it was forgotten...how can a regime be tolerated on this planet that does somethink like that...now the pot blew and we cannot stand there and watch and keep talking..next thing there is a civil war in pakistan and we cannot do anything as it is their domestic problem under international law.
In WWII when hitler invaded we had even a stronger motif to intervene...now the enemy is far away and even protected with our own laws and morals.
IMO we should honour the generation that freed us from Hitler and his machine and be prepared and willing to do the ultimate sacrifice like they did to make our society live 50+ years in freedom...we cannot continue to disregard this as a foreign policy issue that is far away...it's
at our doorstep!
If we hold back and let our economy get crumbled which it will anyway....they will have brought us down to the knees.Wait for
mondays stock markets open..then the aftermath overseas and lotsa airline companies over the world making bankrupcy due to the cost of increased security and way less customers.Thousands of jobs lost etc.
Our freemarket society is in jeopardy here and has been dealt a huge blow!
It could be a rollercoaster into depression.
Then bin laden and the taliban regime know that they have defeated for the 2nd time a superpower nation while we all are worried about moralities etc.What will he plan next then???????How many more followers to his cause will that generate???
maybe i'm overreacting here by calling out for total support for a ground campaign...but i have to make choices and all the other scenarios look even worse to me.
We cant just go back and repair the mistakes we did....we can admit the mistakes but now we got to face the problem as it is and try to solve it before we plunge this planet into something i cant even imagine.
apologies for some grammar and spelling difficulties
storm
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I think that we need to form a global group from as many nations as possible, USA, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Palistinian Authority, UK, India, France, Mexico, Pakistan, Germany, Iran, Brazil, Japan, Canada, China, Spain, ect, ect and go after every terrorist group that raises its head and ruthlessly kill it.
Start with Osama bin Laden and his cronies. Then on to others. The PIRA blows something up? They're gone. Period. Hamas runs a suicide bomb at a restraunt we go and eliminate them. Basque seppartists kill another judge? They join the list of extinct terrorist organizations. The same rules across the world, you commit terrorist acts, you die.
Will we have to go in on the ground? Yes. Will we take casulties? Yes. Do we have the stomach for it? Do we want to win? I pray the answer is yes.
The greater the diversity of nations that we can get on this the greater the chances of it suceeding.
We will also have to listen to peoples that feel themselves oppressed and do what we can to eliminated that feeling. Only when those who commit such acts face universal elimination and we as a world move to eliminate the feelimgs of oppression as much as we can will we purge the world of terrorism.
I hope we can do this.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
We will also have to listen to peoples that feel themselves oppressed and do what we can to eliminated that feeling. Only when those who commit such acts face universal elimination and we as a world move to eliminate the feelimgs of oppression as much as we can will we purge the world of terrorism.
I hope we can do this.
Well said Karnak!!
I hope this too.
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Great article!
They are to hungry to overthrow the bad guys he says. Ok. It's beem bombed so hard there is nothing left to bomb. Ok!
He seemes to have a point in his Bay Area condo as he scrapes delivered pizza crumbs off his computer keyboard. Im glad he was well fed enough to enlighten me.
It gives me peace knowing when we flatten the place, nothing is to be lost, except hunger.
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Eagler and maverick:
If i point out your army weak spots against guerilla war, you attack me personally?
I know that US army is good, but so was the Russian army in 1980 (as good as US army in 1980). Read StSantas post, thats just how i feel in this issue. The invasion is not the problem, your stay in the afghanistan is. It will take long time before you find the Osama, theres lots of rabbit holes to look in. In the meanwhile, Taleban forces will do suicide bombings against your logistics to bring US troops morale down.
All Taleban warriors are pretty much veterans of war, they shouldnt be something to take lightly.
You should be prepared for losing thousands of young fine soldiers if you go to search Osama and his organization. You have a serious problem in your hands and i hope you can solve it. It will take rational decisions and lots of time to succeed.
"kick the s*it out of them with the nukes" is hardly a rational decision. :o
[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: Tuomio ]