Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: REP0MAN on July 11, 2005, 04:09:50 PM
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Why is a Head on attack critizied so badly on 200 text channel? Why do some veterans of this game cry so loudly when someone comes at them, guns blazing, right on their 12 o'clock. Is there an oath against the Head on? Is it bad form to go head on with an enemy aircraft?
Just me asking. Dont take it personally. :) I am relatively new and curious. I dont mind the Head on attatck as an opening move. If I dont like it I invert and dive pushing bad guy into a neg G/ nose down situation for the shot or making him invert and dive to chase me while I trade E for Alt and then level and try to lure him in usually ending with the sudden demise of myself and some innocent foliage.
:)
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Why is a Head on attack critizied so badly on 200 text channel? Why do some veterans of this game cry so loudly when someone comes at them, guns blazing, right on their 12 o'clock. Is there an oath against the Head on? Is it bad form to go head on with an enemy aircraft?
Just me asking. Dont take it personally. :) I am relatively new and curious. I dont mind the Head on attatck as an opening move. If I dont like it I invert and dive pushing bad guy into a neg G/ nose down situation for the shot or making him invert and dive to chase me while I trade E for Alt and then level and try to lure him in usually ending with the sudden demise of myself and some innocent foliage.
:)
One word......"EGO"
I have felt a number of times that I "should have" beat whoever administered a HO as an opening move. Most usually I would have.....if......the guy hadn't made the shot. It's not a great move to make to develope a good position on another plane, and if they continually go for the HO shot they will only get two or three tries if they are pushing hard. After that the plane that worked for position vs the HO will be on their six. But that's only if I can make them miss. If they do hit and do enough damage then they win. That can be a bitter pill to swallow for some (me included at times) and that leads to the comments/excuses et al.
Remember...for most folks...if you didn't think you could beat the other guy then you probably wouldn't be playing the game.
Zaphod
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I disagree Zaphod. There is a faction interested in "air combat". If your sole purpose for logging on was to find a few good turn fights, would you not be annoyed at the waste of your time of seaching for a fight to only find players who think they are armored kights at a jousting tournement.
Since the HO is one of the easiest tactics to counter and exploit, I wont bother doing too much complaining.
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MOST HOs can be avoided. I do get angry every once in a while when I get HOed, but I admit that it's because of my ego. I spent a long time in the CT and have come to expect a fair merge. If they want to HO me after we merge and extend/turn, fine by me. The merge HO is just plain honorless.
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There is also a fair sized proportion of players that deem anything which isn't a rear quarter shot a HO.
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I always avoid HO's if possible. Always put the enemy at an off angle from your vector and make him think he has a shot. Deny him of that shot opportunity and then reverse on him. Some HO's are unavoidable(ex. at the bottom of a rope).
One should spend less time complaining and more time analyzing why you got Ho'd and what to do to make it that next time you will exploit it.
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only thing I personally consider a HO is the point where to planes collide because there shooting at eacother. anything over 20 degrees is not a head on IMO
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Originally posted by OOZ662
...I spent a long time in the CT and have come to expect a fair merge.
Fair? In the MA?
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The best definition I have ever heard is this:
"If both planes have a firing solution on each other, its an HO. If only one can claim that, its an angles shot."
There are several reasons (IMO) why HO has such a bad rep. Partly its a carry over from attitudes developed in Air Warrior where guys who attempted headon shots were considered the lowest form of dweeb (because HO shots just didnt work in AW, it was considered silly to waste your ammo on a shot that would have a fraction of a percent chance of landing). Another is that the HO is the easiest (and thus the dweebiest) form of ACM. You dont have to learn how to fight, just how to pull the trigger. Then you get ego involved because some guy who takes down anyone who tries to fight him regularly, and goes down to some newbie who's been in for his 2 week free fly on an HO. Or someone running home with 10 kills that just cant wait to land them and gloat, and gets HO'd on his final run for the base. Then again, maybe thats just Karma. :)
You fly in the MA, you takes yer chances. Anything goes in there. In the CT, with fewer people, we can make "unwritten rules". Not everyone will follow them even there, but most will. Except VWE. :) In the DA more honorable rules apply. Personally, I try to apply the same DA rules to my flying in the MA as well. Because thats how I fly. I didnt pay to joust. If I get nailed by some no skill lamer that wants to fly easy mode, yippee skippy for him. He got lucky, it'll make him feel better about himself. I know the risks of flying in the MA.
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Originally posted by thrila
There is also a fair sized proportion of players that deem anything which isn't a rear quarter shot a HO.
As well as a fair sized proportion of players who approach head on, see the other guy go out of his way to avoid it, and then go out of their way to HO him anyway, and call it a high-skill front quarter shot. :aok
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Repoman, you're more than free to embrace the HO as a tactic if you'd like, but since you are relatively new and curious let me fill you in on what will happen if you go for the HO:
1. You will find the enemy also goes for the HO, and you have basically a 50/50 chance of killing him, while more than likely suffering damage yourself which may also possibly effectivly end your sortie then and there.
2. Your opponent does not go for the HO. Instead he sets up his move while you're busy trying to HO him. If you don't kill him, you'd better just keep running, as chances are he has a decisive position advantage on you at this point and you will die. People who have learned this and thus do nothing but "HO & Run" are possibly amongst the most despised players in this game.
I'm not claiming to have never HO'd a fellow myself, but after awhile you wise up and decide you'd rather not spend all that time getting to the enemy only to have the sortie possibly ended in a one second joust.
I'm just talking one on one fights here... If you're getting ganged or vulched take every shot you get.
Just laying my thoughts out for you, I hope you don't take it personally either :)
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Repoman, you're more than free to embrace the HO as a tactic if you'd like, but since you are relatively new and curious let me fill you in on what will happen if you go for the HO:
Actually, I don't use the HO as an offensive tactic on purpose. Alot of times I see a horde comin my way and I try to take out one as they pass. I am not going to be able to go around, climb or dive to get away from a horde so I make like a kamakazie and plow through the group. I see it sorta the sameas plowing into a clump of buffs as every cannon on every buff is pointed and shooting every last round it has right at you.
1x1 or 2x1 I will most always try to gain an offensive upperhand by utililizing good E and Alt management. If the bad guy stalls and goes nose down as I am climbing up to get him I will take the shot. Its not my fault that he stalled and we ended up nose to nose. As all of you would agree. I'm not really wanting to debate what is and what is not a HO. I was mostly interested why it is so many people on 200 text cry and whine about the HO all the while I get Ho'ed all the time. I thought I may have been breaking one of those unwritten rules.
As far as what happens if I HO? I know that all to well. Actually, it doesnt matter if I HO or just fly around. I either get to plummet to the earth in 1/4 of my La7 or I get yet another tree kill added to my record. :D
Thanks for the answers fellas. I am honored to have Murdr answer one of my posts. I have read alot of his ACM lessons and seen alot of videos of him kickin bum. (Hows that for an Ego kick?:D)
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There is also a fair sized proportion of players that deem anything which isn't a rear quarter shot a HO.
Amen brother thrila, amen.
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While I don't monitor ch 200, I take offense to the HO based on reading Shaw's "Figher Combat". On page 24, an effective guns envelope diagram is shown and described which has a min-max range boundary with the HO in the center. Per Shaw, it is a poor low probablity shot.
Maybe he is wrong? Also, I came from AW and the HO was not effective. I think the persons who administered that game used Shaw's judgement regarding the HO.
Did the HO happen in real life? Yes. Was it a 'lucky' shot? Yes!
Personally, in AH2 I have not been aggravated by the HO like in AH1. I prefer to not take a HO shot unless it is forced (i.e. I can't maneuver) and multiple kills per sorte is my goal. HO encounters are rarely without damage to both planes (mostly because my gunnery has gotten better).
Regards,
Malta
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Well I'm not going to try a ho on a merge with an enemy, but if an enema presents his 12 in a furball and he's close, I'm gonna shoot - sorry - but it could be one less enemy to deal with.
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heard this in response to Corporate Politics:
"Fair is a place when pigs get ribbons."
Initial merge, you skilled sticks have taught, is to set up the next move, not end the fight in a joust. I guess in a 13 v 2 furball it is bar-room brawl at best and street rules apply. Take the best shot when ya can.
I have fun flying. I hope that I am considered to be fun to fly with, and against. This is quite a community....
Cyas up, (I guess I dont use HO only cause I lose. lol)
daMIG (miggy) :D
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When after the merge the other plane keeps coming round in a way forcing head on passes then i think its fair to take a shot.
Feeling save in front of the other guns is just insane, in a good fight you have to deny the other guy the shooting solutions. If there is a good shooting possibility head on ill take it.
I think it is narrow minded to say i am in front of your guns but because we face each other you should not shoot. Its bad fighting style to give the other guy the possibility.
Most times i try to avoid head on in the merge to get a better position, when the other guy wants to try head on shot he may but the chances are not to good.
And when i face multiple enemys or see that i cant out fight him i try to get any shot i can... dont care which way the other plane flys or weather it costs all ammo since the ammo dont help me when im shot down.
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The way I see it.
99% of all HOs can be very easily avoided, IF you plan ahead in your merge. After a while it comes to the stage where you activly have to accpet the HO inorder to make it a HO situation.
If you make it a habit of never going for a ho but always avoiding it in your merge then you will not die to it.
What upsets me about HOs though is.
1. When I get hit by one I get pissed at my self for screwing up and failing to avoid something that I so easily can do.
2. I get upset when I see pilots using it as their primary shot because that means they are not evolving as pilots. The ones who use it as their main weapon dont know how to get in position for any other shot. The reason I dont take it because the 50-50 odds are too bad but these pilots have settled with thinking 50-50 is good odds. That means they have resigned to the learning curve.
The thing is the HO is only 50-50 if the enemy accepts it. If he doesnt its suddenly a 80-20 advantage to the enemy.
The commitment to the HO means that you will give up vertical separation and you will be late for your opening move. To make things even worse most pilots that use HO as primary weapon also use flat turn reverses.
If a pilot commits for a HO and flat turns as opener and the enemy doesnt accept, goes low for vertical separation and avoiding the HO plus uses a immel reverse then the odds are 95-5 for the later pilot.
Seeing pilots doing this and not working on getting better is sad to me. Because that means that a) they wount get better and the game wount be more challanging for me and b) the chance of them getting frustrated and quitting is high.
Tex
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most eloquently put Tex.
:aok
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Heheh vudak.:) I'm not into mutual assured destruction, if someone looks like they're gonna head right for me on the merge i''ll dodge it. If they make a half hearted attempt for seperation i'll take the shot. Why? because it ends the fight before it develops. If someone starts to manouver for separation at 1.5k out i wont bother as i know i wont land any hits.
I think you need to take into consideration the mossie is my main ride, all i need is the briefest of opportunities and it's all over. If someone doesn't respect the mossies firepower they'll get punished.
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Originally posted by stantond
While I don't monitor ch 200,
Regards,
Malta
I hear ya. But not on 200. I've never tuned it and I can only HOPE I make someone whine on there. I try not to HO... but sometimes you just get tired. ;)
Woof
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It takes two to HO.I shot a vet down in a HO recently in a Typhoon,he turned into me,when he goes down he gets on 200 & blasts me.lol...I have no intention of dogfighting in the truck that is the typhoon,if I can use B&z or E,I prefer the 6 shot.What this person did not like was having his score hurt,and his ego bruised.
If you can avoid the HO do.but if it's your only option take it,because if you don't they will.
This game is about killing red icons.So kill them,if you want to show mercy or fight by some unwritten moral code do.but no one has a right to expect that treatment,and few will show it you.
I notice a lot of ppl complain about trees,like the tree flew into them.LOL
I think the trees should defend themselves on this one,they get a lot of *%*$ on 200.;)
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I have only a few things to mention regarding HO's.
1) The game allows it so have fun!
2) In RL would YOU take a 50/50 shot on a guy when YOU have a pretty fair chance of dying? Tell that to your mom or wife and kids. :rofl
3) Alternatively, you could learn something about air combat tactics and maneuvors. Naw............:)
3) The game allows it so have fun!
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Originally posted by scott123
It takes two to HO.
I really don't agree with this. There's been many times when I'm in a 2+vs1. Turning and rolling, trying to track everybody. Pull up to the top of the loop only to see another enemy at 600 out screaming down from 50K and blasting you. Sure I might get a quick burst but it was never my intention to go nose to nose with him. It was his sheer laziness to work for position and hope for the best even though he's spent the time gainin that alt. That's about the only time I get bothered by a HO. Also when it's 2+vs you and everyone of them HOs every chance they get. If I happen to be one of the many and the under dog Hos, that's no biggy to me, he's at a huge sisadvantage. In the end none of the above senarios make me scream and throw my keyboard. It just gets me thinking sometimes.
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In recent times, ive rarely considered taking or accepting any HO shots, mainly cause im flying Hurr Mk1.
Generally, i prefer to avoid HO, cause of the 50/50 and in favor of trying for a six position. (When im on someones tail i can go for multiple shots, not only one - needed cause i have really bad aim ;)) Especially in 1vs1 fights i enjoy the process of working for position, getting angles and basically win or loose cause of skill, not whos got the bigger canon.
But if im outnumbered or in a big furball: anything goes. Ill take any shot i can get.
The only planes i regularly try to HO (if possible) are bombers.
As for channel 200. Im tuned! Best soap ever.
And besides, sometimes its nice to communicate with 'The Enemy'.
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Originally posted by scott123
It takes two to HO.
Nah, it takes two to joust. BIG difference.
Thrila - I've fought yer Spitty a few times, you definately know what you're doing & I won't hold any Mossie face-shots against ya as I'm sure that's not the only thing you ever set up for. :)
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Ok Gang, here is where we deviate slightly from the original post.
I like to fly the La7. I know alot of you guys hate the La7. Why? Beats me. Anyway, If I am screaming accross the deck, which is what La sticks like to do, and all the sudden, poof, there is a red icon closing fast. It's going to be a head on merge. What do you do to manuver away from the head on while trying to turn the tables against the HO and gain position to fire. Like in my first post, I usually invert and dive if I have altitude. Diving in an La7 has earned me the tree killing title. I've done a number of things to avoid the 50/50 odds and usually still get pinged a few times causing me to run for home as fast and low as possible.
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Ok Gang, here is where we deviate slightly from the original post.
I like to fly the La7. I know alot of you guys hate the La7. Why? Beats me. Anyway, If I am screaming accross the deck, which is what La sticks like to do, and all the sudden, poof, there is a red icon closing fast. It's going to be a head on merge. What do you do to manuver away from the head on while trying to turn the tables against the HO and gain position to fire. Like in my first post, I usually invert and dive if I have altitude. Diving in an La7 has earned me the tree killing title. I've done a number of things to avoid the 50/50 odds and usually still get pinged a few times causing me to run for home as fast and low as possible.
Suggestion go to the DA and learn to duel. Your explaination tells me you may not be sure just how to go about merging with someone in a fight. Alternately, come on over to the TA and get with any trainer. They all know how to do and can teach it.
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Ok Gang, here is where we deviate slightly from the original post.
I like to fly the La7. I know alot of you guys hate the La7. Why? Beats me. Anyway, If I am screaming accross the deck, which is what La sticks like to do, and all the sudden, poof, there is a red icon closing fast. It's going to be a head on merge. What do you do to manuver away from the head on while trying to turn the tables against the HO and gain position to fire. Like in my first post, I usually invert and dive if I have altitude. Diving in an La7 has earned me the tree killing title. I've done a number of things to avoid the 50/50 odds and usually still get pinged a few times causing me to run for home as fast and low as possible.
The best position you can have in a dogfight is high position on the enemies six. He cant touch you and you can waste him when ever you feel like it. This is what you wana achive.
lets look at a few scenarios.
Q: If you invert and go into a split S what manouvers give high positions on your six?
A: Any manouver that doesnt make you loose altitude and that reverses you in roughly the same time as the split S.
Q: When you do a split S what manouvers does your enemy need to make inorder for you to gain high six on him?
A: Ummm... cant think of any.
Q: If you after merge do a flat turn what manouvers does he need to make for you to gain high six on him?
A: Any low manouver like a split S, assuming you have a plane that turns relativly fast.
Q: If you do a flat turn what manouvers does he need to do inorder for him to gain high six on you?
A: Any high manouver, high yoyo or perferably Immelman.
Q: If you do a immelman what manouvers do you gain high six on?
A: Any lower manouvers. especially the flat turn (most common manouver in MA). The split S you end up above but quite far away from.
Q:If you do a immelman what manouver does he need to do to get high six on you?
A: He can only do a immelman to equalize the situatin. He cant gain high six on you in a single manouver.
Further its very good to know that a Immelman reverses you (180 degrees) faster then the flat turn.
The Immelman stores energy. You gain alt and hence convert speed into altitude.
The flat turn burns energy as it doesnt generate speed or altitude. Biggest E burner you can do.
The Split S does convert altitude into speed but it does still burn E since it pulls alot of G.
Q: So what opening move is the most likely to generate a gunsolution?
A: Immelman.
Q: How do you merge to make a immelman and avoid a HO?
A: You go UNDER your enemy. Get under his nose and he has to pull negative G to get his guns on you. By going under him you also gain vertical spearation and hence a better position in a "Immel fight" if he should follow you up high.
Tex
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If I'm merging with another AC and he pulls up 1st to go verticle right in front of me, I'm not supposed to shoot at him hahaha common now. Dont get me wrong I dont set out to headon, anyone that has fought me knows that if I get into a headon situation with an enemy I actually apologize to the guy for me putting myself in that position on ch 200. For the most part HO's are avoidable "MOST" of the time, but if some newby thinks there gonna come in and fly straight at me and get a kill there wrong... The 1st thing I try and do at the merge is get vert. or horiz. seperation... mostly verticle seperation because I fly the 38J allot. So before the merge I usually dive a little and gain allot of speed, gain vert. speperation. Allot of times a newer player will see that, not know what to do, panc, and mirror my move which puts us into a HO position. At about 1.5-2k out, I'll roll one way and fake a break, the enemy will do the same and i'll then lvl out a bit dive or climb just a bit to put a little angle on the shot and blammo the guys dead.. Same thing works well if you put your nose a little low and then go high, the bogey will see you dive, mirror you, and when you pull back up quick, you now have a great cockpit shot and angles to work with incase you miss, because he is now nose low and your nose high at the merge. The shot is not a straight 90 degree HO move but an 80 degree snap "ANTI-HO" maneuver. Remember most HO's are created by newer players that don't know any better, all you gotta do is through em off a lil and there dead
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Originally posted by Murdr
I disagree Zaphod. There is a faction interested in "air combat". If your sole purpose for logging on was to find a few good turn fights, would you not be annoyed at the waste of your time of seaching for a fight to only find players who think they are armored kights at a jousting tournement.
Since the HO is one of the easiest tactics to counter and exploit, I wont bother doing too much complaining.
I'm not sure what you disagree with....
I consider myself part of the "faction interested in air combat". This is why I'm here, I personally don't subscribe to the "win the war" mentality as I don't find it fun...although there is nothing wrong with others finding it fun. (Having said that it is fun to jump in a bomber every now and then, but just because its fun to occasionally plan a flight, drop eggs and attempt an RTB.)
I think that there are several folks who are also part of that group who just take a different tact in how they fight. It could be that they are inexperienced, uneducated or maybe just don't care. The point is that several of the air combat faction folks use the "HO & Run" approach to air combat. Is it effective...not usually...so I don't use it. It can be irritating but its nothing more than another challenge to be dealt with. It still comes down to somebody being good enough to make a HO pass on the merge and land enough hits to damage your plane while you are evading and setting them up for position. If they can do it...they win. It's not my choice because its largely ineffective for me and seems easy to avoid but on occasion they can get it done. If they do get it done it's usually because I didn't do a good enough job of evading.
I really think that the vast majority of complaints about HO results from the "he just got a lucky shot because he couldn't have done it any other way" mentality. Who knows if it was skill, luck or a combination of both. It really doesn't matter because the same applies if he misses. Was it your skill that made him miss, his lack of skill or back luck for him/good luck for you. Nobody knows, hence my comment on EGO. I could be wrong...but I'm certain that the vast majority of complaints on the subject you have heard from ME regarding any fight stem from a bruised ego.
I'm more likely to get irritated by countrymates pulling a HO on an enemy I am 200-400 yards behind than the enemies help rolling in to HO me during the same fight.
Is it irritating to have several planes in a row you try to fight pull the "HO & Run" move. Yes. But there isn't much I can do about it so I try not to let it bother me to the point of distraction.
On a side note.....
HO shots during a fight are another matter entirely. Flying in front of someone's guns in a twisty turney scrap will result in shots fired. Everybody in here does that....EVERYBODY. I can't count the number of times I have passed up a HO shot during a close in fight only to be blasted by the "veteran" I was fighting..........with a HO shot. That's the kind of training that sticks with you.
Zaphod
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Ok Gang, here is where we deviate slightly from the original post.
I like to fly the La7. I know alot of you guys hate the La7. Why? Beats me. Anyway, If I am screaming accross the deck, which is what La sticks like to do, and all the sudden, poof, there is a red icon closing fast. It's going to be a head on merge. What do you do to manuver away from the head on while trying to turn the tables against the HO and gain position to fire. Like in my first post, I usually invert and dive if I have altitude. Diving in an La7 has earned me the tree killing title. I've done a number of things to avoid the 50/50 odds and usually still get pinged a few times causing me to run for home as fast and low as possible.
This is exactly why people hate the La-7. people will HO, miss then run home with there tails between there legs. In that plane you only need the speed to stay alive. Try doing that in a P-40 and see how long you live. I have had them out fly me (speed wise) only to home to daddy to bring back friends. I would suggest that La-7 drivers fly something that can be outrun. Then you'll understand the feeling of the rest.
Peace and no malice
Pillur
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Suggestion go to the DA and learn to duel. Your explaination tells me you may not be sure just how to go about merging with someone in a fight. Alternately, come on over to the TA and get with any trainer. They all know how to do and can teach it
I have a great squad that does training for me. I was merely trying to strike up the discussion as to see what others do in certain situations. I feel fairly comfortable in my ACM skills. Granted, not even close to the best, but decent. In my explaination I showed a time when I have been running on the deck. Maybe home? Maybe away from a fight to regroup and gain some alt. Whatever the case, I was on the deck and got a dot at my 12. My question was what does everyone else do. I like to invert and go low to come up into a yo-yo type situation.Much like Tex refered to at the end of his post, go under him, make him go into neg g to get the HO shot. Thanks for the training invite though. :D
This is exactly why people hate the La-7. people will HO, miss then run home with there tails between there legs. In that plane you only need the speed to stay alive. Try doing that in a P-40 and see how long you live. I have had them out fly me (speed wise) only to home to daddy to bring back friends. I would suggest that La-7 drivers fly something that can be outrun. Then you'll understand the feeling of the rest
Here is something else that I dont understand. I would not HO someone and run unless I suffered damage that made it more to my enemys advantage for me to stay rather than flee for home. If I have a plane that for some reason or another is faster than yours, why is that a problem? As with the HO shot, I see alot of crying on 200 about La sticks. Sure I run if some one has a shot at my six. Thats because I know I am faster and can run. Thats why I fly it. After I get enough distance or you loose interest, I 180 and come back for more. But it is also why I kill alot of trees and earth, beacuse of the speed in a dive.
All in all, I like to have fun and spark conversation here so I can pick the brain of a veteran and somehow get better. Thanks for the input guys!
:)
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Here is something else that I dont understand. I would not HO someone and run unless I suffered damage that made it more to my enemys advantage for me to stay rather than flee for home. If I have a plane that for some reason or another is faster than yours, why is that a problem? As with the HO shot, I see alot of crying on 200 about La sticks. Sure I run if some one has a shot at my six. Thats because I know I am faster and can run. Thats why I fly it. After I get enough distance or you loose interest, I 180 and come back for more. But it is also why I kill alot of trees and earth, beacuse of the speed in a dive.
All in all, I like to have fun and spark conversation here so I can pick the brain of a veteran and somehow get better. Thanks for the input guys!
:)
Repoman, Why not try to hang in and fight the fight? I am a terrible shot. But I love to fight. I ultimatley loose because of my lack of shooting skills, but dang the fight is fun. I think that is a problem with many (not all) La-7 drivers is they use the speed to run instead of using to there own advantage in a fight. Anyway to each his/her own. If you're having fun that's all that counts. I'm just not chasing another one of these planes.:)
Peace
Pillur
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Well said sir! It is all about having fun. It is truly to each his/her own. I do love to fight and also, like you, have terrible aim. Sometimes part of the fight for me is to dis-engage and start from scratch. Believe me I love the fight and you can ask Dr7 to agree because everytime he caps my panzer with one shot, I come back for another round because it's fun. And because one day I will get him! :D
HOST: Dr7 Shot You Down
ya, what else is new.
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
I have a great squad that does training for me. I was merely trying to strike up the discussion as to see what others do in certain situations. I feel fairly comfortable in my ACM skills. Granted, not even close to the best, but decent. In my explaination I showed a time when I have been running on the deck. Maybe home? Maybe away from a fight to regroup and gain some alt. Whatever the case, I was on the deck and got a dot at my 12. My question was what does everyone else do. I like to invert and go low to come up into a yo-yo type situation.Much like Tex refered to at the end of his post, go under him, make him go into neg g to get the HO shot. Thanks for the training invite though. :D
I have to agree you have a great squad and I appologize if I implied, in any way, that it wasn't.
I merely responded to your thoughts on how you flying personally. All indications were you don't really have any idea on how to get angles or merge and I was trying to help you. Being able to turn fight effectively opens up a whole new game to many people. Most people think it's really fun to make a pass and run because that's all they can do. Imagine if you could stay in the fight and WIN!!!
This is not meant to be a criticism but if that's the point you're at then maybe the trainers can really help you, honest.
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Ren
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Hey Ren, on the in on Ren thing..
I knida figured what you were up to when I saw a dar bar over one. When you said you were hiding in the hanger , I was sure of it :D
Thanks, that was fun. Dang those chog wheel flaps :)
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Originally posted by thrila
There is also a fair sized proportion of players that deem anything which isn't a rear quarter shot a HO.
and a couple that thinks a dead 6 shot is a HO. :lol
IMO, nothing really wrong with a HO.
at any angle, if you have a shot, take it. I usually do.
doesn't matter to me which way or who is point where.
if I have a solution on the shot, rat-a-tat-tat.
< seems like in every thread, La7 gets brought up >
my thoughts on La7 is; it is truly a pity that so many, flies that fine plane in such disgraceful ways.
but it is their dime.
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Gunnery and the HO.
Really taking HO shots doesnt help your gunnery. Instead of practicing your gunnery you end up cheating your self. You get kills sure, but you arnt improving.
I know that every individual is different. So I cant demand everyone beeing 100% dedicated to improving their skills. But honestly the better you get at one thing the more fun it is.
There are a few things I recommend to improve your gunnery. Do theses in sequence and your gunnery will improve ALOT.
1. Rule of thumb for new pilots/pilots struggling with aim. Double the distance you lead the shot. I cant stress this enough. The most common miss in lead turn shots and deflection shots is behind the enemy. So double your lead
2. Watch films. Watch where the good pilots aim in different situaitons.
3. Turn off the tracers. If you have tracers on, take the shot and miss the enemy will start going evasive. Its much harder to hit a evasive target.
Tex
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Originally posted by BTW
Hey Ren, on the in on Ren thing..
I knida figured what you were up to when I saw a dar bar over one. When you said you were hiding in the hanger , I was sure of it :D
Thanks, that was fun. Dang those chog wheel flaps :)
Hehe. I try and do that at least once a week. I normally get fast and make everyone work for a shot. I use it as a transition from slower speeds in the TA to the much faster envirnoment of the MA. While I may have 10 guys on me everyone gets a good workout shooting me down.
Glad you enjoyed it.:)
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I thought my post would come back to haunt me one day vudak.:)
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
The best position you can have in a dogfight is high position on the enemies six. He cant touch you and you can waste him when ever you feel like it. This is what you wana achive.
lets look at a few scenarios.
Q: If you invert and go into a split S what manouvers give high positions on your six?
A: Any manouver that doesnt make you loose altitude and that reverses you in roughly the same time as the split S.
Easy if both planes are above corner speed, if both are below a split-S is the faster turn.
Q: When you do a split S what manouvers does your enemy need to make inorder for you to gain high six on him?
A: Ummm... cant think of any.
If he tries to follow your split-s and you become slower then him he will overshoot under you, leaving you high 6.
Q: If you after merge do a flat turn what manouvers does he need to make for you to gain high six on him?
A: Any low manouver like a split S, assuming you have a plane that turns relativly fast.
Wait, so you do a flat turn? He does the flat turn? In all of these situations relative E states and speed are what count, not the move.
Q: If you do a flat turn what manouvers does he need to do inorder for him to gain high six on you?
A: Any high manouver, high yoyo or perferably Immelman.
Again, dependent on how fast things are. Too slow and the high turn takes too long, the low con will be around and coming back up before you finish your turn.
Q: If you do a immelman what manouvers do you gain high six on?
A: Any lower manouvers. especially the flat turn (most common manouver in MA). The split S you end up above but quite far away from.
If he does a split-S enough seperation may be gained that instead of high 6 you're looking at HO.
Q:If you do a immelman what manouver does he need to do to get high six on you?
A: He can only do a immelman to equalize the situatin. He cant gain high six on you in a single manouver.
Further its very good to know that a Immelman reverses you (180 degrees) faster then the flat turn.
The Immelman stores energy. You gain alt and hence convert speed into altitude.
The flat turn burns energy as it doesnt generate speed or altitude. Biggest E burner you can do.
The Split S does convert altitude into speed but it does still burn E since it pulls alot of G.
There are many two-part moves that can beat an immel pretty bad. I like to do a flat turn and then a high yoyo or immel. I'm slower from the flat turn and above him after the immel. Hard to shake high 6 if he is slower then you. The immel is useful, but on it's own it's quite limited if your opponent uses E states right.
Q: So what opening move is the most likely to generate a gunsolution?
A: Immelman.
Not if your opponent is confident. The pitchback is much safer against good pilots.
Q: How do you merge to make a immelman and avoid a HO?
A: You go UNDER your enemy. Get under his nose and he has to pull negative G to get his guns on you. By going under him you also gain vertical spearation and hence a better position in a "Immel fight" if he should follow you up high.
Any seperation -> lead turn will work. What really counts is that you control the E states to your advantage from the opening move.
People don't bite on verticle sepration like they used to. Most people will extend out as soon as they see how screwed they are. Ultimately you lose more E diving and zooming up then he does if he just extends. Another good move is to get slower then him and make like you're going to meet him HO, then at 600 or so when he starts shooting just do your verticle move. If your timing is right he wont be able to get his nose up and will go right under you, letting you saddle up for high 6 w/o having to dive first to do it.
Tex
A lot of people seem to have this problem when learning advanced ACM. Moves like these are just more fluid then many people would like. If you start drawing up these general rules you'll start judging the fight on only one or two factors, when really there are many more things to consider. As you can see by my comments, relative E states as well as the speed of the fight have a dramatic impact on each of your choices.
-p.
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What is a pitchback?
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I believe a pitchback is cross between a flat turn and an immel right pellik ? So on your immel you are not goint straight up and over but more of a 45 degree . I have heard of another term for it, not a pitchback but I think they are the same. Am I correct Pellik ?
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pellik
Your comments are totally right. But my Q&As where ment to keep it as simple as possible to show how easy it is to increase your odds from 50-50 (HO) to 70-30 (Opening move Immelman).
Seriously to beat 60-70% of the MA in a 1v1ish siutation just avoiding the HO and doing a Immelman is enough.
To go better then that you need to gain alot more understanding of E, how to combine manouvers, angles and gunnery.
Tex.
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Originally posted by Iceman24
I believe a pitchback is cross between a flat turn and an immel right pellik ? So on your immel you are not goint straight up and over but more of a 45 degree . I have heard of another term for it, not a pitchback but I think they are the same. Am I correct Pellik ?
Yeah.
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
pellik
Your comments are totally right. But my Q&As where ment to keep it as simple as possible to show how easy it is to increase your odds from 50-50 (HO) to 70-30 (Opening move Immelman).
Seriously to beat 60-70% of the MA in a 1v1ish siutation just avoiding the HO and doing a Immelman is enough.
To go better then that you need to gain alot more understanding of E, how to combine manouvers, angles and gunnery.
Tex.
I think your Q&A format was misleading. You implied that certain moves were answers to other moves. I just wanted to point out that it's not static so that people reading the help and training forum don't mislearn something and hinder their development.
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Originally posted by pellik
I think your Q&A format was misleading. You implied that certain moves were answers to other moves. I just wanted to point out that it's not static so that people reading the help and training forum don't mislearn something and hinder their development.
Yeah your right I should have made that clear from the start...
Tex
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If a pitchback is a cross between a flat turn and and immelman, how is that different than a yoyo? I think of a yoyo as a 45 degree immelman or 45 degree split s depending high or low yoyo.
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A pitchback is used to reverse direction and gain some alt, preserving E as much as possible. Its most useful with the enema breaks flat after the merge, or breaks low, since you can get guns on quicker than if you jst pulled up and through in an immelman.
A Yo-Yo is used to prevent an overshoot on a rear quarter pass when the target breaks, you pull up then turn into the target, part of your radius if turn is the vertical component, keeping the flat radius as small as possible. The Yo yo also puts you back at an alt advantage, and cuts your airspeed letting you do a more controlled pass from above and behind him.
Damn, I sign on for a day to look for old names, and its like the AWTA again.
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I saw this on someones site not sure whos it was but it did a good job of describing a yo yo high and low. It basically said that if you were to take a round dinner plate and cut it in half then the top half would be what a high yo yo looks like. When you make your turn you pull back on the stick and basically just cut the corner by going nose up for a lil bit and then back down to swap some of your alt for speed. The reverse of that is a low yo yo or the bottom half of a dinner plate. you start your turn but instead of pulling back to cut the corner you actually go nose low to cut it. And since you are now lower alt and faster since you went nose low, you would want to pull back at the end of the move to trade some of your speed for the alt you just lost. Your basically just using E management to turn your plane around, instead of losing E like in a flat turn, you are conserving it. Instead of using flat turns always use yo yo's if you want to keep your E up, I hardly ever use a flat turn at all, always yo yo's. Now a pitchback is different, instead of just pulling straight back to pull an immelman you would roll 30-45 degrees to one side then pull straight back. Your basically just doing a cross between an immel and a flat turn. If I wasn't at work I would take a video and post it for ya. Will try tonight if I get a chance. Its a really good move that I am trying to play with and get better at... For all you Aces out there, What is a good scenario to use the pitchback in. I have been playing with it in the barrel roll when I get all the way to the top of the roll instead of goin around again I have been using the pitchback, seems to work very well especially in my P38J. What are some other good scenarios to use it in ? :cool:
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A YoYo is used to either slow your plane or get it faster relative to your adversary's plane. Nothing more.
Most folks have a tendency to overdo a YoYo either not enough up/down or too much. More often than not the High YoYo is so high that the adversary has time to perform a reversal maneuver and can turn the tables. Your objective is to get your plane slowed or accellerate to a point that you have a narrow overtake margin and can maintain saddled up on his 6.
As an excercise go in hot on a plane and as you blow through and see him moving to the left or right out of your field of view roll back in immediately. Don't continue up just roll right back in. That is all you need. If you can get behind some fellow in the TA and he starts turning just pull up enough that he begins moving out of your field of view and turn back in. DO it over and over until you begin to see it doesn't take much nose up to slow you to a point that you slow your closure rate for an easy saddle up. If you do this you will see that as your planes begin to match speeds a High YoYo will have him beginning to pull away.
If, on the other hand, your speed is very fast then go up, roll inverted, look down (forward up view) at him inverted and pull back in. Again beware of a possible overshoot in the making which may require another High YoYo.
A Low YoYo is used when you are too slow but he is on a turn that you can fly an intercept course on. TO do it right this is actually very hard for a noob to do because it means you must roll your belly at the guy for a few seconds. You are doing this for a couple of reasons. You roll away and go inverted and pull, this puts your nose down which gets you fast. In fact, much faster then he is in his turn. You now look at him and place your lift vector (roll wings) on the point in his turn that you plan to intercept him and pull to that point. You will see him on a converging course out to your right/left and right/left fwd (sometimes up) views (depending on which way he turned). Now you just saddle up for a shot. If you miss remember you are moving at a much faster speed than he is and you must go into a High YoYo to regain a pursuit course with him.
Hope this helps to clarify YoYo's.
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How do you deal with someone who is a very good shot in an ho merge? I try to avoid & I give him a deflection shot which he kills me. I try to blow on by & he ho's me. I try a joust & I'll die as often, or more often then he. I must be using the wrong ho evading moves. I think this just makes some people ho or die.
Anyway it doesn't take 2 to ho
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I normally let the guy come in at an angle to me. At about an 11 or 1 oclock position. When he gets to 800-400 I break hard into him and begin my manuever. I've yet to be hit doing so, or at least no more than a BB or 2. And I smile as I come around on his 6:aok
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Originally posted by daMIG
heard this in response to Corporate Politics:
"Fair is a place when pigs get ribbons."
Initial merge, you skilled sticks have taught, is to set up the next move, not end the fight in a joust. I guess in a 13 v 2 furball it is bar-room brawl at best and street rules apply. Take the best shot when ya can.
I have fun flying. I hope that I am considered to be fun to fly with, and against. This is quite a community....
Cyas up, (I guess I dont use HO only cause I lose. lol)
daMIG (miggy) :D
You are a big troublemaker:)
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I stopped getting hit by HO's when I started barrel rolling on closure -- gets me through the merge clean but without the advantage. When you guys talk about taking advantage of the Ho'ers continued tracking efforts for the shot, do you generally mean by maneuvers similar to the Immel? If that's so, does the break from "get under him" to "pull up to start the Immel" come right near the pass, shortly before it, or kinda long before it (taking into account the combined speed of merge)?
Second, how is a pitchback different than a Chandelle? Both have lateral separation (the bank component), both have aggressive pitch, and both have reversal...right?
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Originally posted by Simaril
Second, how is a pitchback different than a Chandelle? Both have lateral separation (the bank component), both have aggressive pitch, and both have reversal...right?
A chandelle is a climbing turn, 180 degrees.
A pitch back is an out of plane reversal without the chandelle.
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
A chandelle is a climbing turn, 180 degrees.
A pitch back is an out of plane reversal without the chandelle.
Hope this helps.
Sorry, i dont get it. :confused:
AN out of plane reversal without a climbing turn?
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Originally posted by MajWoody
How do you deal with someone who is a very good shot in an ho merge? I try to avoid & I give him a deflection shot which he kills me. I try to blow on by & he ho's me. I try a joust & I'll die as often, or more often then he. I must be using the wrong ho evading moves. I think this just makes some people ho or die.
Anyway it doesn't take 2 to ho
You're really not trying to let him get a deflection shot. The idea is to let him almost have a shot, but with a turn into him such that there is no way for him to pull to get the hit. If he's very lucky he may pull tremendous lead early and spray a bit, but he will be shooting at something below his nose if you know how to avoid properly. My guess is if you're getting hit you're not getting enough seperation before the merge.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Sorry, i dont get it. :confused:
AN out of plane reversal without a climbing turn?
It's all in the roll.
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So I get OUT of plane, reverse it, hop in and hope for the best?
Sorry, out-of-plane thows me.
SILAT I am NOT a troublemaker (in my own mind) and neither is DOOM.
"miggy sux in la7
in the 109g too,
Ponys and Spits...
and Niki WOO HOO.
I show up on kill boards,
of dweebs, newbies and Aces..
But when it comes to Greatness
I sux best in the 38's"
:rofl (i crack my self up. Perk the invisible Trees)
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My opinion of the HO
I don't like HO because the player with the
better connection and/or bigger guns
win the HO, both opponents firing at the
same time.
That's why most people cry on HO. It is
the only answer of getting a kill for people
with no skill playing an arcade game, too !