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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: TexMurphy on July 12, 2005, 07:14:11 AM

Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: TexMurphy on July 12, 2005, 07:14:11 AM
Been tempted to learn to dogfight in the Mossie.

My question is...

Is it possible to E fight in it or is BnZ the only realistic option?

Tex.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: hogenbor on July 12, 2005, 07:28:27 AM
The biggest problem with the Mossie is that it bleeds E so quickly. So even with a good E reserve it is quite difficult to BnZ in it and it becomes mushy at the top of a zoom as well.

Instantaneous turn is ok, but sustained you will wallow like a hippo in a mudbath.

It has been quite a while since I flew a Mossie, but shallow dive attacks at moderately high speeds work best for me. You can throw out an awful amount of concentrated firepower, so anything that you'll hit will be cut to shreds. But it's simply not a knife fighter.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: DamnedRen on July 12, 2005, 08:27:29 AM
I absolutely luv killin mossies and 38's! Bigger planes = bigger target. Get on up there and have fun!!! Killed at least one of each last night.

They are great rides!

:)

____________________
Ren
The Damned
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: stantond on July 12, 2005, 11:52:23 AM
Find a Mosquito in the MA and film your engagements.  Thrila is an expert in it.  Try and see if he can duel with you and allow you to film.

The Mosquito is fast and climbs ok, but it has a poor acceleration, sustained turn, or horizontal turn.  Vertical manuevers and rudder authority are pretty good when it is slowed down and flaps are used.  You need a energy advantage (or surprise) when attacking.  It's guns are some of the best in the game.

I would not really call the Mossie a dogfighter, but it is a twin engine fighter.  I would classify the Mosquito as a BnZ plane but it can E fight some too, provided only vertical maneuvers are used.  It is a good plane, but its 'strengths' are limited compared to other planes.  If you are persistent, you can learn it's strengths and get nme's to fight to them.  I usually fly it for attack sortes and BnZ based on opportunities.  I have learned to watch out for lone Mosquitos flying around.


Regards,

Malta
Title: Re: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2005, 03:04:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy


Is it possible to E fight in it or is BnZ the only realistic option?

Tex.


Boom and Zoom is E fighting...




ack-ack
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: BTW on July 12, 2005, 03:33:40 PM
Something in my head full of cobwebs thinks B&z may (or may not)be E fighting and E fighting may or may not be b&z.

A 700mph pass and running for home is not b&z, I think
Title: Re: Re: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Drano on July 12, 2005, 03:41:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Boom and Zoom is E fighting...




ack-ack


Only to a certain extent. I'd say the difference is something like this:

In pure BnZ the attacker has an excess of either alt or speed or both and makes a series of high speed slashing attacks hoping the defender doesn't turn away in time to avoid his shots. Here its more akin to a series of engagements and disengagements as the attacker generally extends quite a long way after each pass. Hence the ability to "boom" and "zoom". All you need for a BnZ attack is pure speed. Anyone who would follow a BnZ'r up is just plain stupid. I could hardly classify that an E kill while you could certainly say it is by definition. Gotta be closer to a didn'tknowanybetterkill tho.

 Pure E-fighting is similar but the difference is the attacker is trying to induce the defender into following him upwards maintaining the energy advantage until the defender is at such a disparity he can no longer manuever, ideally at a lower altitude than the attacker. A textbook E-fighting attack has induced the defender to stall under the attacker. In this case the attacker swoops back down to easily chop up the defender. If he misses(like I do a lot) he can simply climb and repeat. In E-fighting the attacker need not extend to the next sector. Depending on the advantage he started with it could only be a few K away--again generally upwards. An E-fight attack generally requires a plane with superior climbing ability and holds its energy better than the attacker's in the verticle. You want a plane that can go up well.

Now a BnZ attack that's been consistently thwarted by an alert defender can devolve into an E fight but generally it doesn't work the other way, that is unless the attacker has a far superior plane in the speed and climb categories than the defender and ends up with that excessive ammount of alt/speed purely by overabundance of performance. But if you hadn't killed the guy by this point.......

Drano
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: DamnedRen on July 12, 2005, 04:27:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by stantond
I have learned to watch out for lone Mosquitos flying around.
Regards,

Malta


I practically fall outa the cockpit rolling over to "in" on a Mossie, 110 or 38. It's just soooooooo hard to pass up such huge targets and a fun to fight :)

Sorry if it sounds like I'm drollin at the thought, but I am!

________________
Ren
The Damned
Title: Re: Re: Re: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2005, 05:26:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Drano
Only to a certain extent.

Drano




Boom and Zoom is a tactic of Energy Fighting, it is not a seperate "fighting style" like Energy and Angles (turn) Fighting.


ack-ack
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: stantond on July 12, 2005, 06:33:05 PM
Yes, BnZ is a tactic of energy fighting.  However, since it is used so much as the sole tactic of energy fighting, it has its own name (BnZ) and following.  Much like snorkleing is part of SCUBA diving, if all one ever does is use a snorkel they aren't SCUBA diving.  Similarly, if a person only jumps off cliffs into water, I doubt most people consider them a cliff diver.  However, some will.


Regards,

Malta
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2005, 07:06:16 PM
Just because it is one of the predominate tactics of energy fighting in the MA, it does not make it seperate in itself from energy fighting.

Spiral climbs and Rope A Dopes are just as common, does that make those each and distinct fighting styles seperate from Energy fighting?  No, because the basics of all three tactics is to use your superiorer E in an attempt to get the enemy plane to burn his so you can gain an angle for the shot.


ack-ack
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: BTW on July 12, 2005, 07:49:41 PM
What meant was some people B&z in a way completely contradictory to "e fighting." They dive down  from 15k buffeting and make a single pass at 600 mph and run for home. B&z? well maybe. E fighting? HECK NO! Or more common, the guy who blows through diving below the enemy. I don't know how you could call that "e fighting."
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Drano on July 12, 2005, 09:15:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack


Spiral climbs and Rope A Dopes are just as common, does that make those each and distinct fighting styles seperate from Energy fighting?  No, because the basics of all three tactics is to use your superiorer E in an attempt to get the enemy plane to burn his so you can gain an angle for the shot.


ack-ack


But here's where you have it wrong.  In BnZ you don't necessarily want the plane (or planes) you're making a pass on to follow you at all. (But as I said before--if the guy's dumb enough--well OK!).You're not looking to actually get tangled up with the other guy or anybody else as that would burn up *your* E--which is a no-no. Might put you at the disadvantage in a bad situation(slow and outnumbered).

A BnZ guy is coming in hot and *staying hot*, hitting hard (if the shot's there) and getting away. Period. If he's not doing that he's *not doing BnZ*. BnZ isn't really a "fight" of any kind. It a series of attacks and extensions--generally very long entensions in a safe direction. Not what I'd call E management that might require any degree of skill and therefore hardly what I'd classify as E-fighting.(Again unless the dummy follows you up but that's more on him ain't it? Wasn't your skill but his stupidity that got him kilt. That might be defined as E fighting but its not really in my book if he made it that way.)

Almost the polar opposite of this would be a spiral climb or rope--what I'd call E-fighting by definition-- in which the engagement can be painfully slow as the differences in speed are generally not nearly in the same neighborhood as in BnZ. E fighting is all about relativity. He who has a better handle his energy state relative his opponent's will be the victor. You might both be going 350 but its a question of which plane can hold the verticle longer. Which can zoom better. Which can climb steeper. Is the other guy doing 360? Is it enough for him to catch me? There's an element of danger in E fighting that's not present in BnZ. You're almost continually directly engaged with your opponent often showing your 6 and often spending long periods in guns range. BnZ you're in and out of guns range in what? About 2-4 seconds? Bing bang boom gone. It's possible to screw up E fighting with a little bad judgement. If you screw up a BnZ attack and can screw it up regular you oughta just go ahead and switch to tanks. Just sayin'  tm

    Drano
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Manedew on July 12, 2005, 09:24:37 PM
I think E fighting sometimes means getting slower than con on purpose...

Most guys think about things all wrong ...


when i fight good pilots it's a contest between who can get slowest fastest at some points, and who can keep the most E through moves at other points.....

E fighting isn't always about keeping the most energy you can.

most folks I fight don't understand this in the least ... I can just sit there and let them fly into my guns more or less.... that's E fighting to me.... when their speed kills em' :D

the slower you are, the faster you turn......
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Drano on July 12, 2005, 09:25:30 PM
Another difference:

Generally in BnZ you're Zooming with your excess speed(hence the name).

In E-Fighitng you're generally just climbing.

Difference between zooming and climbing.

Zoom is your plane's use of kinetic energy. Objects in motion tend to want to stay in motion. A heavy plane going fast can go upwards a long time as it takes gravity a longer time to start pulling it down. P-47's are a great example of this. They climb pretty much like bricks but they zoom like nothing else.

Climbing is purely a product of the lifting ability of your plane's wings and engine performance together. A 109G-10 climbs like a weather balloon but doesn't zoom near as well as its a very light plane--especially relative to say a Jug.

         Drano
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: BTW on July 12, 2005, 09:40:04 PM
I always picture e fighters as effeciency consultants for microsoft.
B & z is not efficient.
And they're easy to spot. You ever get into a 5 minute fight with a plane and start feeling anemic? He's an e fighter making gradual gains until all your blood is gone. Better to dive away and take your chances there.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: BTW on July 12, 2005, 09:51:54 PM
I guess thats what I find different - good e fighting is sophisticated cruelty - the target suffers as it dies. B & z can be a master or dweebery. An e fighter is never a dweeb.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2005, 10:02:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Drano
But here's where you have it wrong.  In BnZ you don't necessarily want the plane (or planes) you're making a pass on to follow you at all. (But as I said before--if the guy's dumb enough--well OK!).You're not looking to actually get tangled up with the other guy or anybody else as that would burn up *your* E--which is a no-no. Might put you at the disadvantage in a bad situation(slow and outnumbered).

Drano



No where did I say the object of a BnZ attack was to get the other guy to follow you up into a Rope A Dope.  I just used the Rope-A-Dope as an example of another common E fighting tactic used in the MA.  


The object of the Boom and Zoom tactic is to get your target to bleed his energy in his evasive breaks to avoid your passes that it sets up a shot for you, while you maintain your energy state.  

This is just one of the various tactics E fighters use.  And that's all it is, one tactic among a few.


ack-ack
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: RightF00T on July 12, 2005, 10:09:52 PM
On the subject of Mossies, it is great to vulch in and works wonder over an enemy field.  They get greedy and tend to just see you as a JABOer so you can capitalize on this and rope them out.  The cannons dont leave them much room for mistakes, so string them out at d1.5k, then pounce down just before they stall out.  Ive had multiple 8+ kill runs in the Mossie, and have landed a few.  The key is knowing when to get out.  Usually, more than 3 slightly lower cons will end in death.


Also, you can move your head position up indefinitely to the top making deflection shots near impossible to miss.;)
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: MOSQ on July 12, 2005, 11:14:14 PM
Be ready for a pilot wound on nearly every sortie. I've literally been pilot wounded on 10 straight Mosquito sorties. Any attack on a GV is likely to end in a pilot wound. Apparently AH models zero armour in front of the pilot, and with no engine any .30 cal bullet in the nose results in a pilot wound.

Beware the tail first backwards slide/stall. Once it starts you better be pretty high or you're going to auger before you recover.

The Mosquito is like a FW -A8, it will drop speed like crazy in a turn, giving you one good snapshot. Better not miss that one opportunity because any fighter will outturn you after that.

And standby with a fire extiguisher, the Mosquito flames like a turbo charged Ronson. At least it used too, maybe HTC has fixed that issue.

Positives:
Tremendous range (it is a bomber after all).
Tremendous guns, at least as long as the Hispanos hold out.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Drano on July 13, 2005, 12:11:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
No where did I say the object of a BnZ attack was to get the other guy to follow you up into a Rope A Dope.  I just used the Rope-A-Dope as an example of another common E fighting tactic used in the MA.  


The object of the Boom and Zoom tactic is to get your target to bleed his energy in his evasive breaks to avoid your passes that it sets up a shot for you, while you maintain your energy state.  

This is just one of the various tactics E fighters use.  And that's all it is, one tactic among a few.


ack-ack


 

I think what you're saying is they're one and the same and I'm trying to throw a little clarity on the subject as they're certainly not.

Don't look now but your descrition of what you call BnZ is actually a good example of energy fighting. Its a horrible example of BnZ tho. Here's why.


In a BnZ attack the object is to not bleed your E state in any way shape or form. The defender or defenders E states are irrelevant so long as they lack the ability to outzoom you. You're not going to actively engage anyone in particular for longer than it takes to get a guns solution on them as doing that presents a possible danger to you and that's right out. A BnZ attack is made always against lower preferrably otherwise occupied NME. A BnZ attack is the preferred method if the attacker is also outnumbered by same. BnZ attack is as follows: go in hot--fast, hit hard taking any shots that present themselves--don't force shots (it bleeds E), and get out fast using that great speed to zoom back up to a position of safety. Make only shallow low-G turns or rolls on the pass if any at all. Repeat as necessary or until higher bad guys come along to break up your party.

In this situation you wouldn't go down and get tangled up in a turnfight--you'd get ganged right away. How many times have we seen it? If you decided to pick on a guy near the edge and try to get him to stall under you(that's E fighting btw) chances are you'd give the other guys time to grab up to you and again you'd get ganged--just not right away. So you see turnfighting and e-fighting are the wrong tactics for the situation. BnZ otoh is perfect. You have plenty of targets and are always going way too fast to be in any sort of danger. If you're a better shot than I am and most are you'll prolly end up with a few scalps for your trouble too. And that's what BnZ is all about--staying out of the danger zone--being simply too fast for the other guys to defend against. Both offense and defense of the whole shebang is excess speed. No real tactic to it at all. Generally the guys you kill aren't gonna see you coming or will be unable to avoid you because of something someone else has done.


BnZ isn't gonna work against a single opponent as anyone with more than about 7 brain cells will be able to simply avoid it pass after pass after pass. Why do you think so many guys complain about guys that do that? Its like--non-fun. To defend against a BnZ attack there's only one cardinal rule--don't go up. You need not make a blackout break turn either. Good timing is all that's needed. And turn just enough to deny him a shot.  A fast diving plane generally won't be able to follow a break turn if only because of the speed disparity. Using that speed against the guy is simple enough to do. More often than not a guy doing this "tactic" will eventually get greedy and follow the defender in one of his break turns breaking a cardinal rule of BnZ by helping his opponent equalize E states. I love it when this happens. If he hasn't become too greedy he's either dead or the BnZ engagement has ended as he's buggin out. Either way--problem solved.

E-fighting is closer to what you describe. I think you're just getting the terminology confused by calling it BnZ which its not. You're getting a guy to blow his E--likely because he went up while breaking or simply following you up which is the exact wrong thing to do. This is where the rope/spiral climb are--its E fighting pure and simple. Nothing at all like BnZ other than there's a lot of up and down component to both.

 Drano
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 13, 2005, 05:56:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Drano
I think what you're saying is they're one and the same and I'm trying to throw a little clarity on the subject as they're certainly not.


No I'm not.  I am saying that they are both E fighting tactics.


Quote
Don't look now but your descrition of what you call BnZ is actually a good example of energy fighting. Its a horrible example of BnZ tho.

In a BnZ attack the object is to not bleed your E state in any way shape or form. The defender or defenders E states are irrelevant so long as they lack the ability to outzoom you. You're not going to actively engage anyone in particular for longer than it takes to get a guns solution on them as doing that presents a possible danger to you and that's right out. A BnZ attack is made always against lower preferrably otherwise occupied NME. A BnZ attack is the preferred method if the attacker is also outnumbered by same. BnZ attack is as follows: go in hot--fast, hit hard taking any shots that present themselves--don't force shots (it bleeds E), and get out fast using that great speed to zoom back up to a position of safety. Make only shallow low-G turns or rolls on the pass if any at all. Repeat as necessary or until higher bad guys come along to break up your party.

Drano



Actually, in a BnZ attack, the most common maneuvers used is either the Cuban 8 or the Half Cuban.  In both of these BnZ maneuvers, you do lose your energy in the climb but you regain it in the dive.  

The defenders E state is relative because if they have sufficient energy, they can force the attacker into the defensive quite quickly.

You ever hear of the phrase "tap dancing on their heads"?  That refers to the part when in the BnZ pass, you make the other plane break turn, which then in turns bleeds his energy off.  Then either on the next pass, you can elect to dance on his head again or if he's sufficiently slow enough that he presents you a shot.  Then you use your superior E state to extend beyond gun range, zoom up and repeat.

In any case, the way I outlined it above or even what you said, BnZ is just another among  few different Energy Fighting tactics.  And if you want to split hairs, there are also different variations of BnZ.  But that still doesn't change the fact it is and will always be just a tactic.


ack-ack
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: TexMurphy on July 13, 2005, 08:59:58 AM
*Yawn*

Looks around for posts on topic.

*Yawns some more and crawls back to sleep*
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: thrila on July 13, 2005, 10:16:53 AM
I've got plenty of films if there is anything in particular you are after tex.

I don't usually bnz or E fight with the mossie.  I'm generally aggressive and burn my E for angles because that is what the mossie is good at, i try to dump my E which will allow me to stick on the 6 of a con for long enough to shoot it down.  The mossie can E fight  however due to the poor climb and acceleration it doesn't make an outstanding one.   IMO the mossie turns very well at high speed and ok at low speed.  Once the speed gets below 200mph a notch of flaps can be lowered to aid in turning, often i'll drop them a notch maybe two for better turning for a second or two.

The mossie is great for forcing overshoots due to it's high E bleed, which i find particularly fun.

I've just come back from the beach and now off to work, i'll post more when i get back.  Here's a film (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/87_1121267418_mossieropespit.ahf) of me roping a spit to show the mossie can E figth if you want to.  It did however take me a long time to be able to master the mossie when it's slow at the top of a rope.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Clifra Jones on July 13, 2005, 11:15:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack

Actually, in a BnZ attack, the most common maneuvers used is either the Cuban 8 or the Half Cuban.  In both of these BnZ maneuvers, you do lose your energy in the climb but you regain it in the dive.  


ack-ack


I would not classify the Cuban 8 or half-cuban as BnZ tactics. This is classic engergy tactics. True we are talking symantecs here but in the classic MA environment I would not call it BnZ.

I think what you are talking about here can be more accuratly classified as a BnC tactic (Boom N Climb). True many people lump this in with BnZ but I would say that when you say BnZ to most pilots in AH they will think of the Boom-n-Run.

When I see a bandit attack me at high speed and then go straight up or nearly straight up I know I'm in for a hard time as this guy know what he is doing.

When I see a bandit attack and then extend to 1-1.5 Kliks out before they even attempt to bag some alt I know I can discount him for a while and look for other targets.

Not saying that one is better than the other. I'm saying that the 1st guys is actively trying to kill me and the second is more concerned with his own skin.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: DamnedRen on July 13, 2005, 11:46:06 AM
Clifra....you're not supposed to post that info...:D

With everyone being afraid of their own shadows in the MA anymore us old guys have to resort to other methods to get ya'll ta fight us. Now I know an easy set up.

Your words....
"When I see a bandit attack and then extend to 1-1.5 Kliks out before they even attempt to bag some alt I know I can discount him for a while and look for other targets.

Not saying that one is better than the other. I'm saying that the 1st guys is actively trying to kill me and the second is more concerned with his own skin."

The second you discount someone for one extension or one turn is the time you will be shot down by some vet because you didn't give him the credit that perhaps you thought he didn't deserve.

That's almost the same as easing up on an attack. The second you do, on any plane, is when you may get your lunch handed to you.....

My suggestion is fight every single plane very aggressively but like he is an equal or better opponent then you will never be taken by surprise by making a snap judgement call of what appears to be a noob.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: GooseAW on July 13, 2005, 01:18:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MOSQ
Be ready for a pilot wound on nearly every sortie. I've literally been pilot wounded on 10 straight Mosquito sorties. Any attack on a GV is likely to end in a pilot wound. Apparently AH models zero armour in front of the pilot, and with no engine any .30 cal bullet in the nose results in a pilot wound.

Beware the tail first backwards slide/stall. Once it starts you better be pretty high or you're going to auger before you recover.

The Mosquito is like a FW -A8, it will drop speed like crazy in a turn, giving you one good snapshot. Better not miss that one opportunity because any fighter will outturn you after that.

And standby with a fire extiguisher, the Mosquito flames like a turbo charged Ronson. At least it used too, maybe HTC has fixed that issue.

Positives:
Tremendous range (it is a bomber after all).
Tremendous guns, at least as long as the Hispanos hold out.


It does tailslide terribly in AH! I've learned to get the nose over sooner than in other planes to avoid this (most the time).

It also still flames and the first hint of a hit from the rear.

I love killin over confident La's and Spits in my mossie  :D

Vs all but the best turners, or the best sticks, I love a good knife fight in the Mossie. I prefer to use off plane/diagonals over the vertical or flat turn maneuvers. IMHO

Definately a top ten ride, if not top 5.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: TexMurphy on July 13, 2005, 05:54:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
IMO the mossie turns very well at high speed and ok at low speed.  Once the speed gets below 200mph a notch of flaps can be lowered to aid in turning, often i'll drop them a notch maybe two for better turning for a second or two.


What would you compare it to?

I know this is individual as I know most people consider the jug (my main ride) a worse turner then P38s and Nikkies but I can out turn both in the jug.

So you as a pilot what planes do you feel comfortable out turning? By out turning I dont mean flat turns I mean, High YoYos, Obelique turn and anything that is a multi axis turn.

Tex
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: AmRaaM on July 14, 2005, 10:16:52 PM
your can out fly them, but you cant out turn either one. 3-6 turns vs either one and you're gonna die.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: thrila on July 15, 2005, 06:52:46 AM
I'm not sure what i would compare the mossie too.  I haven't really a lot of time with other planes, i went from the spit -> tiffie -> mossie over the years.  With flaps out it's turn radius is very small, but it's turn rate is bad due it's poor acceleration.  The planes i have the most trouble against are the latewar rides with fantatastic acceleration.

The mossie bleeds E so badly that i am confident to out turn anything within the first couple of turns at high speed.  IMO the key to the mossie is to be aggressive, to dump your E as fast as you can to gain angles.  If i was fighting a spitfire for instance I would try and get a shot off within 2 turns.  If i didn't gain a favourable angle i would dive away a couple of K below, reverse at 2.0k and repeat.  In any fight if i feel i'm not gaining the angle i will dive away to get some speed so i have more E to play with.

A large furball is different though.  Sometimes i'll do the above if i want some quick action.  If i feel like racking up some kills i'll do the standard stay fast, choose highest con first etc.
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Widewing on July 15, 2005, 08:44:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by TexMurphy
What would you compare it to?

I know this is individual as I know most people consider the jug (my main ride) a worse turner then P38s and Nikkies but I can out turn both in the jug.

Tex


You cannot depend on the enemy being a lousy pilot, because some of them are not. At low to medium altitudes, the P-38 (any model) and the N1K2 absolutely own the P-47s. It gets even worse if they have an E advantage on the initial merge.

Down low, a well flown P-38J is a match for an expertly flown P-47. If the P-38 survives the first minute of so, it will rapidly gain the Jugs six by simply keeping the fight in the vertical.

Yesterday, I had just taken off in a P-47D-25, 50% fuel and a belly tank. Passing 3k, olskool offered a fight. He was in a P-38J and quite a bit higher. I dumped the drop tank and turned his way. He dived down, building speed and we passed on each other's left side. Having barely 250 mph, I watched him go vertical in a high loop. I just extended trying to get a bit more air speed. When he came down, we jousted a bit, mostly me avoiding his attacks. I took a few pings, but eventually equalized the E states enough to work angles and was able to clobber the P-38. Being the TA, the fight continued and after a few more minutes, olskool was able to get on my six. The D-25 simply cannot compete in the vertical with the Lightning. Now take the fight to 25k or higher and the Jug can handle the P-38. Not so down low.

Score that one 2/1 in olskool's favor.

Let's see; the P-38J is faster, accelerates faster, easily out-climbs the Jug and is one of the very best stall fighters in the game. The P-47N will eliminate some of these disparities (except climb and low-speed maneuver), giving the Jug pilot the ability to disengage and gain some seperation (the P-47N being some 20 mph faster on the deck than the P-38J, with even better roll and turning than the D models).

Now, if the P-47 has the E advantage from the outset, things will be much hotter for the P-38 as a well handled P-47 can maintain that E advantage for a long time (and nothing zoom climbs better).

As for the N1K2; if you are Co-E and Co-alt, the Jug pilot should simply refuse the fight until he has a discernable advantage in E. Otherwise, the P-47 is at risk.

When presented with the choice, never fight the way the enemy fights best.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: TexMurphy on July 15, 2005, 10:09:13 AM
@thrila

Thats basicly the way I do fight in the jug. Be agressive, bleed E, deploy flaps, out manouver enemy for a short windown of time, get shot of or dive away. I also strech it as vertically as possible. Even though the vertical characteristics of the Jug are bad due to its bad accel and "hate nose high" characteristics I do force it as much as I can. I guess the mossie is just the same in that aspect.

Its gonna be interesting to try this out.

@Widewing

I think the main reason of why Ive been so successfull against nikkies and P38s in the D25 is that most pilots under estimate the jug.

They know they can out climb, out turn, out everthing the jug. Only thing they cant is out flap and out bleed it.

This makes it quite easy to get on their six. Once there 90% of the nikkies and 38s start truning but they are still over their flap speed. So I just deploy another notch of flaps and get a great lead turn shot.

What Ive noticed about most 38s is that if they start using vertical they use something similar to a High YoYo, its more a diagonal climb and fall off to right or left then high yo yo but still, and when they do this I cant stay with em, ever. This is to be expected. BUT what I do get is a fantastic angle shot. Because we do tend to fall off roughly at the same time. When I start to fall off I deploy flaps which makes me extreamly stable through the situaiton. They zoom right past me and I get the shot.

Though I only follow if I see they have a angle to their climb so that they dont fall down straight at me. When they do this high yoyoish manouver they wount be able to get guns at me.

Same thing goes if they start doing obelique turns. I love it. Obelique turn is a manouver the 38 should totally own the 47 in but once again I do follow and get inside turn because of worse nose up ability.

Tex
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Widewing on July 17, 2005, 01:13:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
As for the N1K2; if you are Co-E and Co-alt, the Jug pilot should simply refuse the fight until he has a discernable advantage in E. Otherwise, the P-47 is at risk.

When presented with the choice, never fight the way the enemy fights best.


It's ironic that I mentioned the above just the other day. Tonight I ran into a pair of Nikis at relatively high altitude.

I had taken a P-47D-25 (I like the skin of Dave Shilling's Jug, Hairless Joe) and loaded 50% internal fuel, a belly tank and a pair of 500 pound bombs. My intention was to head to the nearest Knit base where a constant furball was taking place. As I overflew the nearest Rook field, I noticed several red dots on the DAR headed in. I finally spotted their distant dots, somewhat higher than me. I figured that these were possibly bombers, so I pickled off my bombs and zoomed up from 13k to 18k. As I leveled off, the enemy icons were now visible. Two Nikis trailed by what turned out to be a distant LA-7, which bugged out. The N1K2s were at 17k. Being rather slow, I unloaded (nose over, establish zero G for acceleration) and headed straight at the nearer Nikis.

Both N1K2s zoomed up towards me, but I simply flew on by as they rolled out behind. With WEP engaged, I accelerated to 375 mph and began a high-speed climb. At 3.5k distance, I pulled into a climbing reverse that brought me about 1,500 feet above the wallowing Nikis. Up this high (I was now at about 19.5k), the Jug easily out-climbs and out-accelerates the N1K2.

Cutting to the chase; both Nikis were clobbered.

This was an excellent example of refusing to fight the way the enemy (aircraft) fights best. Instead, I used the strengths of the Jug to force them to fight the way my aircraft fights best. IE: Energy fighting. At the altitude this fight took place, the N1K2 is a dog. This was a turkey shoot.

Tex is right about being aggressive. However, it's best to have the tactical advantage first. When you have the faster aircraft, getting the advantage requires only patience.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Happy1 on July 18, 2005, 01:54:22 PM
:) Hello Widewing, u know ur subject matter, congrats, would u also post some of ur films, pls?   Thx.

Cheers,

Happy1  :D
Title: Dogfighting in a mossie...
Post by: Happy1 on July 18, 2005, 01:54:41 PM
:) Hello Widewing, u know ur subject matter, congrats, would u also post some of ur films, pls?   Thx.

Cheers,

Happy1  :D