Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on July 12, 2005, 09:47:51 AM
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/232_1121179579_fordummies.jpg)
So quit complaining, and try aiming better!
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I thought hit sprites just said that numerous shots hit in that section.
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Some dumies don't understand what they read. Thats a nice miss there. Why don't you shoot a little further out. It will support your point better.
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Care to submit in one of your own films of those alleged "bullshi*" instances? You seem to be accusing me of purposely missing the shots. So in that case, why not give me a film of yours?
Or, it's quite easy to analyze it yourself, if you don't want the embarassment of someone else finding out that what you claimed is not even close to the real truth.
Simply, record the instance, go to the film viewer.
Engage it in external view, with full zoom distances in both zoom categories, and then check the gun-cam box... slow down the playback time as much as possible, and then go to fullscreen mode.
Sit back, and start counting the bullets landing on the ack gun.
You'll bear witness to the embarassing truth of how grand majority of people have a way of exaggerating their ability to aim at stuff - from which, the classic, misinformed, foolish, and delusional remarks:
"This is bullshi*.. I fired hundreds of rounds but the ack gun is still up."
...is born.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Some dumies don't understand what they read. Thats a nice miss there. Why don't you shoot a little further out. It will support your point better.
Also this is just your aim. And you say something bout dud hit sprites. I dont get any hit sprites intill i accutly hit the gun ack, and when I do I see lots of it like the pic you posted. And it does take a few passes to take out an ack. I just think hey if you got a crew down there there not gonna survive that 1 50 cal round could serverly damage that gun. Meaning something has to hit it in all that hail of bullets.
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Also this is just your aim.
It's quite amusing, that among all the explanations possible of the photo, you guys will draw up the conclusion that that's how I've been firing the whole pass.
And you say something bout dud hit sprites. I dont get any hit sprites intill i accutly hit the gun ack, and when I do I see lots of it like the pic you posted. And it does take a few passes to take out an ack.
Nope. Try it yourself and see what a full zoom in the film viewer gives you.
You need multiple passes because you didn't hit enough shells.
Don't believe me? Give me your film and I'll use it to analyze it as I did with mine.
I just think hey if you got a crew down there there not gonna survive that 1 50 cal round could serverly damage that gun. Meaning something has to hit it in all that hail of bullets.
True.
But that's not how the game is made. The point of the thread is;
1) people are misinformed
2) they can't hit anything
3) they start making up realism excuses
Oh yes, in real life the .50s would have killed ground crew.
But this is a game. It's arbitrarily modelled so it takes x amount of bullets to kill something and y amount of bullets to kill another. And under those conditions, the acks don't die in the game, because you guys are not hitting it. Bring up an instance where one has actually hit the ack 5 times and it did not go down, and that would be something worthwhile to discuss as a bug or something problematic.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Care to submit in one of your own films of those alleged "bullshi*" instances? You seem to be accusing me of purposely missing the shots. So in that case, why not give me a film of yours?
Or, it's quite easy to analyze it yourself, if you don't want the embarassment of someone else finding out that what you claimed is not even close to the real truth.
Simply, record the instance, go to the film viewer.
Engage it in external view, with full zoom distances in both zoom categories, and then check the gun-cam box... slow down the playback time as much as possible, and then go to fullscreen mode.
Sit back, and start counting the bullets landing on the ack gun.
You'll bear witness to the embarassing truth of how grand majority of people have a way of exaggerating their ability to aim at stuff - from which, the classic, misinformed, foolish, and delusional remarks:
"This is bullshi*.. I fired hundreds of rounds but the ack gun is still up."
...is born.
Please, before you continue to make a fool of yourself, go back and read my posts. What claims did I make? I am too laze to write it for a third time. Just go back and read it and stop acting like an arse. :rolleyes:
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Ok, Kweassa I agree with you on this matter...seen it myself. But I'd like to turn it around and ask why it's so easy to kill ack with cannons. I hardly aim at the pad and the gun goes down. Is this suggesting I hit the gun at least once and that's enough to destroy it?
Curious...
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cannons are explosive and do blast damage. if you miss youre still inflicting damage, where as 50's are just plaind lead bullets
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Originally posted by Pooface
cannons are explosive and do blast damage. if you miss youre still inflicting damage, where as 50's are just plaind lead bullets
im sorry but most gun implacements @ airfields were sandbagged and such to provide protection against straffing and bombing (light protection, but not unprotected).
20mms kill acks way too easy, u dont even have to be close, just general area, and 1 bullet will kill the ack.
acks need to be hardened some, and made more leathal. at the current state they are very under modeled. a long fighter should not be able to deack a field. it should require multiple fighters working together or a bomber to deack.
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Gotcha...:aok
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should be easier to take out aa guns with 50s, alot more projectiles and other factors should be considered as in killing operators, ammo, ect. plus these aa positions are not dug in.
do i really care? no , its soooooo easy to kill off a whole base of aa guns in one FA bird now, so I really dont know what peeps are complaining about.
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Whels:
"acks need to be hardened some, and made more leathal. at the current state they are very under modeled. a long fighter should not be able to deack a field. it should require multiple fighters working together or a bomber to deack"
This is the reason I thought it might be a good idea to have all gun positions be manable.
Some single & twin mount 40mm, like the bofors AA gun would be nice especially depending on the size of the field.
Of course just my opinions, some will like, some will not. Bottom line is, an attacking A/C should be afraid of the "ack" but from what I've observed, it's viewed as just a nuisance.
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Have any of you ever fired a 50 Caliber?
It does way more damage than what it does in this game.
You can shoot a 50 Caliber round through at least 10 school buses,but yet in this game it does hardly nothing too anything,unless your using 8-50's.
You can look at snapshots and run film all day long it will still be the same truth.
I experimented with the 50's when everyone started crying recently about them,so i opened a room up and turned the soft lethality up,it was set at 05 or10 can,t remember but anyway it was really low and that was on the rangoon map.
After turning the lethality up too we'll say 90 with a limit of 100.
I had a person come in the room and up a Ki-61,after just a small
blazing pass from my P-51- B model he was on fire and goin down fast.
So it's my Opinion that the soft lethality should be turned up,once that happens you will see a lot more virtual pilots flying American steel even more.
:aok
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Originally posted by Ted Strykker
Have any of you ever fired a 50 Caliber?
It does way more damage than what it does in this game.
You can shoot a 50 Caliber round through at least 10 school buses,but yet in this game it does hardly nothing too anything,unless your using 8-50's.
And how much damage will inflict to these buses, if bullet dont hit fuel tank, engine, driver or something like that?
ZERO. A single 12mm hole in metal hull (ok, may be broken glass). You can shoot in bus all day and did almost no real damage until you hit something important.
12mm in game not same as in RL, but they are deadly here
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Please, before you continue to make a fool of yourself, go back and read my posts. What claims did I make? I am too laze to write it for a third time. Just go back and read it and stop acting like an arse.
dedalos, my deluded buddy, this is a separate thread dedicated to this discussion only! It's got nothing to do with what you've posted on the other thread.
(although your 'shrapnel' comment on that other thread did not make any sense anyway)
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im sorry but most gun implacements @ airfields were sandbagged and such to provide protection against straffing and bombing (light protection, but not unprotected).
20mms kill acks way too easy, u dont even have to be close, just general area, and 1 bullet will kill the ack.
acks need to be hardened some, and made more leathal. at the current state they are very under modeled. a long fighter should not be able to deack a field. it should require multiple fighters working together or a bomber to deack.
Okay! Now we're talking, whels.
You see, a comment like this, is not a whine, but a suggestion to change the arbitrary modelling into something we can all agree on.
And under that premise, I agree the cannons kill acks too easily. There have been number of suggestions in regards to this.. and I think the ideas of;
a) sandbag protection around ack
b) human being modelled sitting at ack emplacements
would be a pretty good idea. It would give the .50s a pretty good chance to disable the ack(but not necessarily kill the gun), and make it a bit more difficult for 20mms to kill ack, since it would need a closer, more precise hit inside the "sandbag" perimeter to kill acks.
Have any of you ever fired a 50 Caliber?
It does way more damage than what it does in this game.
You can shoot a 50 Caliber round through at least 10 school buses,but yet in this game it does hardly nothing too anything,unless your using 8-50's.
In that case you can go to the .50 thread in General Forums and complain there. Some of the best pilots in AH who exclusive ride .50 planes will tell you that the .50 is plenty powerful.
This thread, is trying to prove that the power of the .50 has nothing to do with it being inable to kill ack.
It's a gun mounting method problem, not a gun problem. So please don't confuse the two....
...unless, you have something to say about the amount of hits required to kill ack gun with a .50 round.
In that case, currently, AH ack gun required 5 rounds of .50s to kill.
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I wish someone would post a film of a lone 50 cal round hitting something. And showing the damage.. Would seem intersting.
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It was posted many times already.
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/wing-test.wmv (~8Mb)
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Okay with the power of the 50 cals the shots that fired first. Seemed like 10 rounds should kill any kind of gun even if only a few rounds hit. and those shots at the end wow they just destroyed anything.
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First was 20mm AP
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Kweassa is right all you have to do is aim. .50cals are API not HE that means you have to actually hit the ack gun. Cannon are HE that means the explode on impact. In other words take a rifle point it to the ground and fire a few rounds then get a grenade pull the pin then drop it. Which is going to do more damage to you? It doesnt take much of a brain to know that HE does more damage the AP. I took a P47D-40 up 8x 50cals convergence set at 400. Zoomed in droped in on the ack fired a 2sec burst and the ack was dead. Try this aim to the left or right of the gun if your in a plane with wing guns see if that helps.
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Originally posted by Oleg
It was posted many times already.
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/wing-test.wmv (~8Mb)
:rofl :rofl :rofl At the end of the movie, take a look at the metal plate hanging on the left side. I'd say it is about 3 or 4 feet away from the massive explosion of the 20mm. It does not even move :lol Yeah, if that was a gun it would have definetly been destroied bu the amaizing explisve power of teh 20mm :rolleyes:
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Okay with the power of the 50 cals the shots that fired first. Seemed like 10 rounds should kill any kind of gun even if only a few rounds hit. and those shots at the end wow they just destroyed anything.
jetb, FYI, 5 rounds of .50s kill ack guns in AH.
At the end of the movie, take a look at the metal plate hanging on the left side. I'd say it is about 3 or 4 feet away from the massive explosion of the 20mm. It does not even move Yeah, if that was a gun it would have definetly been destroied bu the amaizing explisve power of teh 20mm
The plate was strapped down with chains up and down, with metal poles dug into the ground to hold it stationary. If you look on the right side, you'll see the blast alone rolls the solid metal drum until it bumps into something and rolls back again. The target 'wing', is torn to bits.
You think an ackgun isn't gonna be damaged by something like that?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
You think an ackgun isn't gonna be damaged by something like that?
Sure. It could. But would it die every single time? Even if the answer is yes, then that 20 should have the same effect on a plane. In anycase, another hard day at work is over :lol. Looking forward to our next argument, lol
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Originally posted by Kweassa
jetb, FYI, 5 rounds of .50s kill ack guns in AH.
The plate was strapped down with chains up and down, with metal poles dug into the ground to hold it stationary. If you look on the right side, you'll see the blast alone rolls the solid metal drum until it bumps into something and rolls back again. The target 'wing', is torn to bits.
You think an ackgun isn't gonna be damaged by something like that?
1 question that hasnt been asked or answered. yes the pic shows the explosive power of a 20mm hitting metal. but what would the effect be with hitting the ground near it? would it do the same, or would the effect be dulled with the bullet digging into the ground and confining the blast?
bullet fired @ a gun, does bullet explode on instant contact with ground? does it rickoche off and explode doing less harm farther away? does it burrough into ground, ground absorbs blast doing less or no harm? lots of factors .
whels
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Remember also while you may have fired 100 rounds on a pass how many of them were hitting at the distance of convergance?
When your diving in at 300 MPH and your convergance is say..400 yards the target is only at that convergance point for but a very breif moment and only for that breif moment are your rounds hitting all in the same spot and if your in a plane that only has wing mounted guns its even worse as if your too far the bulletsd land on either side, and if your too close the bullets land on either side.
\ ./ 600 yards
.\/
.* ground target 400 yards
./\
/ .\ 200 yards
(Lousey pick I know but I think you get the idea)
You can see above that if your converg is set for 400 yards or even 500 yards your rounds are landing on either side of the target
Same thing when you get in close. Below 400 yards again your rounds start landing on either side of the target.
and if your diving in on that target your only at that magical 400 yard range for less time then it takes to snap your fingers and in that time you have to be dead balls accurate in your aim or you miss entirely. A hair to the left, you miss, a hair to the right, you miss or only hit with 1 or 2 rounds as opposed to the full load your shooting
Unlike if your shooting at a target in the air where you can reasonably expect to maintain a 400 yard distance for more then a millisecond therefore you have more rounds actually hitting in the same place on a target which is 10 times the size
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
[/B]
Dred,
As far as my posts go, the whole thing started when one of the explanations I got on why the gun dies from a 20mm hitting 5 or 10 feet away was that srapnel would kill the crew manning the gun and cause secondary exposions from hitting the ammo (good explanation). To that, I said that 100 rounds of 50cal missing the gun, would or should have the same effect as the srapnel. Meaning, they could miss the gun but hit the crew or the ammo. I just don't have good reactions to people starting for dummies threads and calling an opinion a whine just because they don't agree with it. Look at the picks, do you think anyone around the gun survived that? And even if they did, they are probably still running :lol
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Ok, so an MG-equipped plane can kill an ack. That doesn't mean that the cannon-armed planes shouldn't be obligated to do so instead (maybe the MGs can fly in too to present more targets).
1 round somewhat close to ack from cannon plane, ack goes down. The slightest little indentation on the cannon plane's trigger.
So really, when we want to get the ack down, if I'm in a tippy, I'll get the ack. If I'm in a Hellcat and you're in the tippy, you get the ack.
Fair enough?
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Originally posted by Vudak
Fair enough?
NO! you get the ack, I killshooter the FH and the fuel. :cool:
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actually i have seen many time where i fired 1-2 cannon to kill an ack, and they hit inside the little circle the ack is it, but it does not die.
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To that, I said that 100 rounds of 50cal missing the gun, would or should have the same effect as the srapnel.
Why should the .50s get such 'collateral' effect as a bonus when no other weapon in the game has such?
Your effectively asking for the ability to kill something without being able to hit it, on an assumption that is based on random factors - bullet bounce, shrapnel, etc.
A cannon is fundamentally different as a weapon. If the cannon shell itself does not hit, but the target is still within its impact blast radius, then effectively, by all means, the cannons have not missed the target at all. It hit the target.
The cannons do not rely on a secondary, collateral effect to kill an ack gun. The explosion is a primary effect.
To the AP guns such as .50s or .30s, the primary effect relies on kinetic impact of shells only.
You are asking to model an arbitrary "shrapnel/bullet bounce" perimeter to the AP guns so it can kill something that didn't hit the mark at all, so in effect, the AP guns will become like cannons in its efficiency against small ground targets.
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Kweassa, next time please take a hose and water down the dang dirt so it aint so dusty! Then do a test run! gezzz I got to tell everyone everything. hehehe! j/k'n
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Why should the .50s get such 'collateral' effect as a bonus when no other weapon in the game has such?
Your effectively asking for the ability to kill something without being able to hit it, on an assumption that is based on random factors - bullet bounce, shrapnel, etc.
A cannon is fundamentally different as a weapon. If the cannon shell itself does not hit, but the target is still within its impact blast radius, then effectively, by all means, the cannons have not missed the target at all. It hit the target.
The cannons do not rely on a secondary, collateral effect to kill an ack gun. The explosion is a primary effect.
To the AP guns such as .50s or .30s, the primary effect relies on kinetic impact of shells only.
You are asking to model an arbitrary "shrapnel/bullet bounce" perimeter to the AP guns so it can kill something that didn't hit the mark at all, so in effect, the AP guns will become like cannons in its efficiency against small ground targets.
I am not asking for anything. Why is this so hard to understand? I was talking/replying to Escimo. Some how you showed up and made it your conversation. All this stuff about secondary explosions and srapnel is a responce to him. If srapnel and secondary explosions are not the case, then my coments don't make any sence either. But I was not talking to you or about what you think it is happening. I was responding to Escimo. Do I need to start a "how to not think that people are talking only to you or some people just don;t care about what you have to say - for summies" thread for you to get it? In your world my comments don;t make any sence. I understand that. Can you understand that I was not talking about your world?
Do you care to share with the rest of how you determined you were the first and only to test this? :lol
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You are asking for something dedalos, and it's not hard to understand at all:
You want a gun to kill something that it has not hit.
And that's pretty self-explanatory as an opinion by itself.
As for the testings, search the damned forums and see if anyone else ever tested this like I have.
I was one of the first to respond when people started reporting difficulties in killing acks with HMG/wingarmament planes during AH2 open beta.
I tested it myself, confirmed that 20mms kill with a near hit, and came up with a theory. HT intervened in the thread, and he confirmed it. This is in fact, the third time I've done a separate testing, and upped its results.
Don't believe me? Then I leave it up to you to discredit it, if you can.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Some how you showed up and made it your conversation.
Not to be picky, but it is his thread after all :)
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that's great, but can you tell me how a 20mm round that hit the ground not where near the ack platform can take an ack down?
Oh wait, im talking to Kwenesawa here. I'll have to have the CIA, FBI, along with all of the other US Govt branches all provide me with official documents before I can make a comment like that.
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Lol Morpheus. Got any proof?
What kind of distance between the impact zone and ack are we talking about here?
Two feet? Four? Ten?
How about actually testing it out?
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Cannon Vrs 50 cal
I would also imagine the idea is to destroy the gun itself and not just the crew.
thinking 50 cal may be enough to temp kill off a gun crew but guns can easily be re-manned
Cannon rounds destroy the gun itself
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i would like to know where the fella in the vid got a 20mm, not to mention the .50.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Not to be picky, but it is his thread after all :)
Dont be picky. This started in a different thread but he felt the need to start a for dummies thread to continue talking about something irelevant to the origunal conversation.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
You are asking for something dedalos, and it's not hard to understand at all:
You want a gun to kill something that it has not hit.
And that's pretty self-explanatory as an opinion by itself.
As for the testings, search the damned forums and see if anyone else ever tested this like I have.
I was one of the first to respond when people started reporting difficulties in killing acks with HMG/wingarmament planes during AH2 open beta.
I tested it myself, confirmed that 20mms kill with a near hit, and came up with a theory. HT intervened in the thread, and he confirmed it. This is in fact, the third time I've done a separate testing, and upped its results.
Don't believe me? Then I leave it up to you to discredit it, if you can.
:rofl If you read my posts by now you should have understood that I am saing the exact oposite. I am saing it is toooooo easy for the 20mm to kill a gun. This whole conversation is based on your refusal to understand what I said.
As far as beliving you, I really could not care less. I do think it is funny that just beacause you posted something first, you assume that you were the first and only to test it. Kind of shows a bit about who you are, lol
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Originally posted by Morpheus
that's great, but can you tell me how a 20mm round that hit the ground not where near the ack platform can take an ack down?
Oh wait, im talking to Kwenesawa here. I'll have to have the CIA, FBI, along with all of the other US Govt branches all provide me with official documents before I can make a comment like that.
Morph is teh 377t stupid. He no get what the great one said. Leme help teh nub.
Its because of their amaizing explosive power Morph. A 20mm packs teh punch of 5 plutonium enriched hand grenades and 1 2000lb bomb
:rofl :lol :rofl :lol :rofl :lol
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Lol Morpheus. Got any proof?
What kind of distance between the impact zone and ack are we talking about here?
Two feet? Four? Ten?
How about actually testing it out?
I got proof, but you couldnt see it with you're head so far up that pipe of yours. :)
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I can always knock ack down with a shot burst. You turbolaser dweebs have to aim, spraying only takes you so far.
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I got proof, but you couldnt see it with you're head so far up that pipe of yours.
So what is it??