Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DiabloTX on July 12, 2005, 11:25:42 PM
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While taking a smoke break at work today my ears heard something unlike the usual F-16's taking off from Ellington Field. I looked up and saw not one, not two, but three F-4 Phantoms taking off. Haven't seen that here in well over 20 years. They were all grey with the tail and elevators painted red. Any idea what there were? Man that was a sight and it sounded so cool...
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I didn't know any Phantoms were still in service. Maybe they were foreign or part of a museum.
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Tips painted red or orange?
If it looked like this, it's a QF-4 target.
(http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0104/decoys1b.jpg)
supersize (http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0104/qf-4_xxl.jpg)
The only Phantoms I know of that are still in service are all targets.
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shudders ... darn that brings back some long lost brain cells ....
used to see them things daily .:aok
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So sad. I'll take that F-4 off your hands, Mr. Air Force, and I'll convert, oh, I dunno, a BD-4 or some sort of fast GA plane into a target for you.
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QF-4 - Target drones.
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Huston, hunh? Red Tails...
What're the astronauts chaufflering themselves about in these days?
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yup they were either target drones or on their way to be converted into said drones. I've seen them here a few times.
loud suckers!
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Originally posted by Wolfala
QF-4 - Target drones.
wouldnt it make more sence to have somemthing more modern then an outdated aircraft for targets?
I mean if your going to be going up against the likes of say spitfires you sure woudlnt want ot use goons as practice.
you would want to go up against something that is the near equivalent of a spitfire no?
If I am in err please enlighten me
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
wouldnt it make more sence to have somemthing more modern then an outdated aircraft for targets?
I mean if your going to be going up against the likes of say spitfires you sure woudlnt want ot use goons as practice.
you would want to go up against something that is the near equivalent of a spitfire no?
If I am in err please enlighten me
No crap, there are a fair amount of F/A 18's that are time lifed... I say use them.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
wouldnt it make more sence to have somemthing more modern then an outdated aircraft for targets?
I mean if your going to be going up against the likes of say spitfires you sure woudlnt want ot use goons as practice.
you would want to go up against something that is the near equivalent of a spitfire no?
If I am in err please enlighten me
They use the F4 because its cheap - we got a lot of them, and they load the **** out of them with telemetry scoring gear. Remember, scoring is done with rounds that don't explode, so it only needs to pass near the drone inorder to score as a hit. They want to reuse the drones - and the F4 is a robust airframe that if hit, survives more often then not.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Sandman
Tips painted red or orange?
The only Phantoms I know of that are still in service are all targets.
:(
That just plain sucks. One of the prettiest jets they ever made, and they turned them into target drones??? Thats just wrong.
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Its the group from Tyndall. Whenever they get a storm the F-4s come here to ellington. During Ivan it was a blast to taxi out between them.
I believe they have 3-4 painted in normal line paint schemes that they are taking around to airshows this year for heritage flights.
Also dont forget the collings foundation F-4 is based out of ellington along with their TA-4, huey, B-25 and C-1 Trader.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
They use the F4 because its cheap - we got a lot of them, and they load the **** out of them with telemetry scoring gear. Remember, scoring is done with rounds that don't explode, so it only needs to pass near the drone inorder to score as a hit. They want to reuse the drones - and the F4 is a robust airframe that if hit, survives more often then not.
Wolf
well thats wonderful. But I just dont see how that helps you train for something that you may go against that is far superiour.
Unless we're planning on going to war against a country that still uses F4s
If I were a pilot and if the most dangerous opponent I might face was for example a mig 1.44 MFF I sure as hell would want to be practicing against something very very similar and not a relic my potential enemy could easily beat.
If I am expected to be able to compete against the best any enemy has to offer I would damn well want to practice against the best the enemy has to offer or at the very least something very very very close
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
well thats wonderful. But I just dont see how that helps you train for something that you may go against that is far superiour.
Unless we're planning on going to war against a country that still uses F4s
If I were a pilot and if the most dangerous opponent I might face was for example a mig 1.44 MFF I sure as hell would want to be practicing against something very very similar and not a relic my potential enemy could easily beat.
If I am expected to be able to compete against the best any enemy has to offer I would damn well want to practice against the best the enemy has to offer or at the very least something very very very close
Do you happen to have a price for frontline russian aircraft?
And are you willing to pony up the tax dollars to buy one so it
can be destroyed?
As sad as it makes me to watch Phantoms get wacked, it's
surely more cost effective and a better "death" than getting
parted out and abandoned in a boneyard somewhere.
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By 2nd Lt. Albert Bosco
325th Fighter Wing Public Affairs
TYNDALL AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. (AETCNS) -- The 82nd Aerial Targets Squadron, affectionately known as “Team Target” at Tyndall, is a key player to ensuring that air-to-air and surface-to-air weapons systems can meet the needs of the military in an ever-changing threat environment.
With technology changing at a blinding pace, systems often become obsolete before they are ever employed. To counter this, the men and women of the 82nd ATRS provide information to both system developers and the military about various weapon systems’ ability to respond to current and foreseeable threats.
The focus of the 82nd ATRS mission at Tyndall is to provide tactically realistic targets for air-to-air missile systems, such as the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9 Sidewinder, while its detachment at Holloman AFB, N.M., provides targets to support surface-to-air systems evaluation, such as the Army Patriot and Hawk surface-to-air missile systems.
“The last thing you want to do is test a missile in the battlefield,” said Maj. Alex Franco, 82nd ATRS assistant operations officer.
In order to effectively test a missile, it must be fired at something. For this reason, the 82nd ATRS uses a fleet of drones. Thirty-three modified F-4 Phantom aircraft, called QF-4s, and 48 sub-scale BQM-34 Firebee and MQM-107 Streaker drones serve as targets for various missile systems. The drones replicate real-world scenarios and provide data that allows developers and the military to identify and solve any problems or limitations within a particular system.
According to Lt. Col. George Biondi, 82nd ATRS operations officer, the Department of Defense has mandated that weapon testing be accomplished using targets representative of real threats. Since air-to-air missiles were designed to shoot down airplanes, they must be tested against airplanes. While subscale drones are more cost-effective than QF-4s, they are significantly smaller, thus limiting the types of threats they can simulate.
“We’re shooting down QF-4s because test requirements vary,” said Major Franco. “Altitude, (infrared) signature, payload and speed are some of the variables that necessitate using full-scale targets. Sub-scale drones aren’t as big, can’t fly as fast or as high and can’t carry the kind of payloads a QF-4 can.”
One of the most fascinating aspects of the QF-4 mission is that it is operated by remote control. Rated contractors, operating from Gulf Range Drone Remote Control Systems, fly the aircraft via a computer terminal to the test area where the weapon is evaluated. In a perfect test scenario, the QF-4 flies remotely for the duration of the test. However, in the unlikely event that something goes wrong, the 82nd has two alternatives.
First, in the event of a communication loss between the QF-4 and the controller, or if the aircraft becomes unstable in flight, a mobile remote system can attempt to re-establish contact and fly the aircraft from a position near the drone runway allowing the operators to see the aircraft. If attempts to restore communications fail, or stable flight cannot be re-accomplished, the aircraft has an automatic destruct mechanism that will prevent it from crashing into an undesirable location.
Although the drone has sensors that relay information regarding flight characteristics and test parameters back to the controllers, there are no cameras to provide visual data. To provide the visual information to the controllers, the remote QF-4 is followed by a manned QF-4, acting as a chase aircraft during takeoff and landing.
“The manned aircraft provides a set of eyes for the controllers,” said Major Franco. “If there is a problem with the system, the pilot can relay visible signs of malfunction to them.”
As with any test program, the 82nd ATRS places heavy emphasis on safety Before a drone is launched, hours of planning are done to ensure all possible scenarios have been thought out. Often, the 82nd ATRS will launch a manned QF-4 to determine operational limitations of both the aircraft and the weapon being tested. Ironically, sometimes even the manned QF-4 is flown by remote and the pilot is in the cockpit to monitor flight parameters and act as a backup in case things don’t go as planned.
As an additional safety measure, the 82nd ATRS launches an E-9A, called a Widget, prior to testing. The E-9A is an airborne telemetry platform that provides data relay information to the remote pilot and test customer. Before the test, the E-9A searches the gulf with powerful sea surveillance radar to detect small vessels that may have entered the test area. Once the target area is clear, it climbs to 25,000 feet and prepares to provide telemetry data.
Once the test area is clear and the pilots have been briefed on the test parameters, the remote drone and manned chase plane take to the air. Upon entering the target area, the manned aircraft will break off to avoid becoming a potential target and the testing begins.
The remote controllers are able to fly the QF-4 as if they were actually in the aircraft, thus ensuring a realistic engagement. If the QF-4 is hit and damaged beyond recovery, the destruct sequence is activated and the QF-4 falls to the water below. If the QF-4 sustains little damage and can be flown back to Tyndall, it is recovered and repaired for use in later tests.
Although the QF-4 mission is only one facet of the 82nd ATRS mission, it is extremely vital to ensuring air-to-air dominance of the American warfighter, unit officials said.
The QF-4 is not the first full-scale drone used and it will not be the last. According to Colonel Biondi, the QF-4 is expected to stay in service until 2008, at which time a new drone, possibly a QF-16 could be selected to continue providing the information that allows military men and women to continue flying and fighting well into the future.
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Originally posted by Habu
First, in the event of a communication loss between the QF-4 and the controller, or if the aircraft becomes unstable in flight, a mobile remote system can attempt to re-establish contact and fly the aircraft from a position near the drone runway allowing the operators to see the aircraft. If attempts to restore communications fail, or stable flight cannot be re-accomplished, the aircraft has an automatic destruct mechanism that will prevent it from crashing into an undesirable location.
What a waste... it can already fly towards the runway by itself, why not to install a full ILS autolanding system into it and get it back on ground in one piece :D
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I think from the article they do land them if they can.
The telemetry system probaby costs a fortune and I am sure they want to recover them even if the airframe is too damaged to repair. However they are testing missles so I am sure that they expect to lose quite a few if the tests are sucessful.
I feel sad thinking of the proud history of those planes. They were a major part of the Vietnam war and tens of thousands of missions were flow with them everything from air to air to close ground attack.
Sad to think that they have no further use other than target drones.
Think of the airforce using Mustangs or Spitfires for this purpose. In 30 years the Phantom will be considered a classic.
One other group flying them is the German air force. They train in the US with them and fly missions against more modern planes. I understand they still do quite well too.
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Originally posted by Habu
I think from the article they do land them if they can.
Yes, they do land them if its a) still flying, b) still connected to the remote controller.
However if the connection is lost and can't be regained, regardless how the plane flies -> kaboom.
Now thats what I was talking about, making it land all by itself.
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Ok, that was deffo them. Thanks guys!
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
:(
That just plain sucks. One of the prettiest jets they ever made, and they turned them into target drones??? Thats just wrong.
They've been used as targets for 15-20 years. ;)
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In 2001 they had a G Phantom at Wings over Pittsburgh, I chatted with the pilot for a few minutes, and he says the only piloted F-4's in the Country at that time were used for Training Foreign Pilots. I beleive he was on his way to train some Luftwaffe Pilots.
Other than that he said most were Drones.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Huston, hunh? Red Tails...
What're the astronauts chaufflering themselves about in these days?
T-38s. Tons of them. I am so sick and tired of seeing them for the last 30 years I could puke. That's what made yesterday so special. My wife's uncle works on them, has for years. A friend of mine's father worked on them for decades as well. I can't get away from them.
I still remember when the 147th here were flying F-101's and during airshows they would go supersonic about 100' off of the deck. Scared the crap out of me when I was 5. I remember it vividly because they would slowly pitch up and down at that speed and altitude.
The F-4 tips looked red to me because, at the time, it was faily overcast and the orange became subdued. They headed south and then turned east.
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Originally posted by Habu
I think from the article they do land them if they can.
The telemetry system probaby costs a fortune and I am sure they want to recover them even if the airframe is too damaged to repair. However they are testing missles so I am sure that they expect to lose quite a few if the tests are sucessful.
I feel sad thinking of the proud history of those planes. They were a major part of the Vietnam war and tens of thousands of missions were flow with them everything from air to air to close ground attack.
Sad to think that they have no further use other than target drones.
Think of the airforce using Mustangs or Spitfires for this purpose. In 30 years the Phantom will be considered a classic.
One other group flying them is the German air force. They train in the US with them and fly missions against more modern planes. I understand they still do quite well too.
Time marches on, when I was TDY at Tyndall back in 83, the
QFs were 100s and 102s. Guess I'm getting old ;)
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
T-38s. Tons of them. I am so sick and tired of seeing them for the last 30 years I could puke. That's what made yesterday so special. My wife's uncle works on them, has for years. A friend of mine's father worked on them for decades as well. I can't get away from them.
I enjoy working T38s. Although many of them are getting upgraded with new electronics/avioncs/displays, they are simple and mechanical. If needed you can remove alot of the egress system by hand were as most modern day A/C recuire an overhead crane.
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Originally posted by Habu
Sad to think that they have no further use other than target drones.
It's better than letting them rot in a salvage yard. ;)
We blow up target drones for two reasons... first, the knowledge gained from doing it just might save a pilot's life, and second, the law requires that we do live-fire testing of weapons, and defensive systems.
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Like Rino, above, when I was in as a radar tech with this squadron -
VMFA-112 (http://skywarrior.cool.ne.jp/vmfa-112sub.htm)
- we deployed to Tyndale for College Dart. Then F-102s were the 1:1 superscale RC bird of choice. The AF was still flying T-33s there then too. We never got a Dagger, but once, on deployment to Miramar my old trusty F-4N radar (slightly modified B) and a Sparrow got a Firebee. (Pilot was "Surfer" and the RIO was "Jim Bob", and by the way, the pilot looked like a surfer with beyond regulation blond hair, but was a hot rock Vietnam vet.). The radars for two F-4J birds couldn't even get a lock. The photos at the link bring back a lot of memories. One of the birds in the photos - number 3 - had a radome that was practically impossible to shut because the airframe at the nose was not round anymore but kinda elliptic. Yeah, nothing like the sound of those GE J79s, and the smell of burning JP-5 in the morning.
Best regards,
Cement
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"Think of the airforce using Mustangs or Spitfires for this purpose. In 30 years the Phantom will be considered a classic. "
Guess how some F6F's met their end.....
J_A_B
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Hell I had a video of a B-17 taking a Hawk hit.