Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on July 13, 2005, 11:52:41 AM
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to demand of the Muslim communities in the free and civilized world that they do more than pay "lip service" to the idea that Islam is NOT in agreement with the terroists that claim their "jihad":rolleyes: is based on the Muslim faith?
Would it not be true that Muslims that live in a community and look the other way at best, and encourage/sanction/fund the activities of the terrorists living in their midst at worst, are just as guilty as those who commit the acts? Would they not be just as guilty as anyone else who had prior knowledge of or prior involvement with any other crime and did nothing to stop it?
Once it reaches the point where there are those who are inciting riots, murders, bombings, and other acts of terrorism, there is no longer any "grey area" about freedom and tolerance of religion or speech.
I would expect the same thing of any other race, creed, religion, or other sect. Harboring murderers and remaining silent while giving "lip service" to the denouncing of their acts is nothing more than a decietful endorsement of those acts.
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Agreed but the same ought to have applied to the IRA. It didn't and I hate to say it but US sympathisers were part of that problem. We've been living with terrorism a long time here and not only from Muslim communities!
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Oh, it should apply to EVERY group, period. Just as I stated in the last paragraph. It's too late to go back and change the past. But to wait any longer to save the future is absurd. I'm certain there are U.S. citizens who were indeed guilty of backing the IRA. I'm just as certain there are British and U.S. citizens and also "foreign nationals" in BOTH countries who are supporting those who attack both countries.
I am not the sort to judge by the color of skin, the clothes, or the religious book carried or not carried. However, at this point, given the gravity of the situation facing the civilized free world, I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question. I am as opposed as anyone to a "police state" or to surrendering freedoms. But I am also just as opposed to having my friends and family slaughtered by some psychopath in the name of whatever religion or other cause he espouses.
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Agreed.
We can't go back. We need to make sure as best we can that we never support terrorism, ( or blind hatred or prejudice for that breeds terrorism ) wherever it comes from.
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I believe that the pope himself denounced the IRA bombings of civilians.
I don't believe that the IRA is saying that their cause is a catholic religious jihad tho.
As a former catholic... I renounce the IRA bombings or kilings of civilians tho...
Feel better?
lazs
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How much cash did the IRA get from US citizens? Was this ever tracked?
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
How much cash did the IRA get from US citizens? Was this ever tracked?
I'm sure there is a paper out there somewhere with a reasonable idea.
If anyone gave a dollar, it was a dollar too damned many.
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Most americans who gave to the IRA had no idea that they were giving money to the IRA. CFC for example.
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Deleted
Rules 5 and 7
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Thats a little inflamatory. Quite possibly illegal certainly over here ( incitement to racial prejudice).
Just for the record understanding what motivates the terrorist and sympathising with a terrorist are two different things.
There are indeed some serious injustices going on in the Middle east. And many of those injustices are comitted against arabs and palistinians as well as Israelis.
Without going into a long complicated argument ( I have to go to work after this coffee ) I think its fair to say that unless we realy address the problem of Israel and Palastine properly ( much as has been done in NI ) then the bombing and killing will continue and innocent people will die. To be seen as even handed in our approach as Western nations would go a long way to breaking down some of the anger. It might not cure it. There will always be evil, idle, crazy people who will resort to terror, but it might help sway opinion amongst guys such as my computer engineer fellow and reduce the acceptance of such terror tactics amongst the general muslim population.
It might be a good idea to reduce our dependance on ME oil too as that gives those guys a very good weapon ( economicaly ) to use against us.
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Gunslinger, I'm happy I'm not from the Middle East or I would definitely take offense to that. There is always a radical group in all areas of society, from politics to religion... you can't judge the entire mess by the actions of a few.
edit: Bah, why am I wasting my time, the moderators are just going to delete that anyway.
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Quite possibly illegal certainly over here ( incitement to racial prejudice)
Since when was islam a race?
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The propensity to stereotype members of the Muslim religion wouldn't be so strong if this philosophy (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/13/news/web.dutch.php) wasn't so prevalent.
The Muslim community needs to speak out against this type of barbarism to legitimisize their faith.
The absence of a general outcry against the fanatical sects of Islam from the mainstream Muslim community is deafening.
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After a few terrorist nukes have gone off, people of the world might think it's time for all muslims to leave.
Hopefully, the general muslim population will realize this before then.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
The absence of a general outcry against the fanatical sects of Islam from the mainstream Muslim community is deafening.
You don't know what you are talking about and I seriously doubt you have ever met a british muslim yet alone talked to one.
I lived for seven years in one of the predominently asian areas of West London (Hounslow) and worked with a number of muslim men and women during that time. I never heard a single one utter an extremist word; we even watched the events of 9/11 together on the office TV and my Islamic colleagues and friends were as shocked, dismayed and repelled as the non-muslims.
I now live about 40 miles from the hometown of last week's bombers and local TV news has been replete with members of their community condemning the attacks.
The Muslim community needs to speak out against this type of barbarism to legitimisize their faith.
What utter and complete rot. Why in a modern society should anyone need to legitimize their faith in the face of actions of a criminal minority? And as for your baseless contention that muslims haven't condemned terrorism, you can't have looked very hard.
Link (http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm)
Link (http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm)
This is not the religious war that so many are trying to paint. It is an already discredited group of extremists using violence to advance a political cause by claiming a religious framework as justification for their crimes. By framing your own response to the extremism in religious terms you actually advance their argument.
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The bad part in all this is the whole tends to get blamed for what the fanatical minor fraction terrorists do.
There are different factions of Muslims as there are different types of Christians.
Do the math.
I don't recall seeing many Christian types condemning those fanatics that actually murdered certain doctors because of the abortion issue.
Perhaps it is not one's responsibility to have a need to apologise for another's action that you might not agree with simply because you share the same religion.
95-99+% of innocent people have to answer for the fanatical fraction?
What kind of America are we standing for anyway?
Freedom, Liberty, and Justice for all (except if you're Muslim?)?
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
to demand of the Muslim communities in the free and civilized world that they do more than pay "lip service" to the idea that Islam is NOT in agreement with the terroists that claim their "jihad":rolleyes: is based on the Muslim faith?
Would it not be true that Muslims that live in a community and look the other way at best, and encourage/sanction/fund the activities of the terrorists living in their midst at worst, are just as guilty as those who commit the acts? Would they not be just as guilty as anyone else who had prior knowledge of or prior involvement with any other crime and did nothing to stop it?
Once it reaches the point where there are those who are inciting riots, murders, bombings, and other acts of terrorism, there is no longer any "grey area" about freedom and tolerance of religion or speech.
I would expect the same thing of any other race, creed, religion, or other sect. Harboring murderers and remaining silent while giving "lip service" to the denouncing of their acts is nothing more than a decietful endorsement of those acts.
Good luck. Muslim extremists feel their way of life, holy lands, and views are under attack by Christians and Jews. We dont see it like they do. To us we are fighting a terrorist group, to them they are fighting infidels, its a completely different mentality and is why Iraq will be in a civil war within 6 months of the "Coalition" pulling out.
There are some moderates in the muslim world but I fear they are outnumbered and well frankly their enemy's cut heads off. i.e not enough good guys to keep the bad guys in check.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
The propensity to stereotype members of the Muslim religion wouldn't be so strong if this philosophy (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/13/news/web.dutch.php) wasn't so prevalent.
The Muslim community needs to speak out against this type of barbarism to legitimisize their faith.
The absence of a general outcry against the fanatical sects of Islam from the mainstream Muslim community is deafening.
How about this:
Fanatical terrorist of a different color (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3077040.stm)
I didn't notice the outcry by Christians against this fellow. They both have a scary simularity as to their justifications for why they do what they do.
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Originally posted by Suave
Most americans who gave to the IRA had no idea that they were giving money to the IRA. CFC for example.
I dont know. I remember going to some sort of Irish festival with my father (My Grandmother is from Belfast) when I was like 10 or 11 and there being a stand where you could donate to the IRA.
and get "I.R.A. ALL THE WAY" Buttons and T-shirts.
Cant say with any certainty if he donated or not. But knowing him and how close he was with my great grandmother and how she felt about the Brit government (something about the killing of Irish baby boys back around the late 1800's-early 1900's) he might have.
He's gone 12 years now so since he cant say it for himself I'll apologise for him for the killing of any civilians .
I know he wouldnt have supported that. Government personell/targets is another story.
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subaru... your example is fine except... that anti abortion guy did not strap a bunch of explosives on himself and blow up the run of the mill everyday citizen... he targeted abortion doctors and clinics.
That still makes him a murderer but... not much danger to me unless I am in an abortion clinic or an abortion doctor. He doesn't have a training school that is saying that all the people in the U.S. have to die untill they convert to his faith/reasoning.
I don't think he should be allowed to live (he wasn't) or to train others to kill. If all the anti abortion killers came from one state or training camp... we would need to take measures against the supporters.
It is so obvious that the guy is not following christian principals and there are SO FEW christians doing what he does that he is not worth mentioning by other christians... There is no christian jihad.
lazs
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
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I am not the sort to judge by the color of skin, the clothes, or the religious book carried or not carried. However, at this point, given the gravity of the situation facing the civilized free world, I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question. I am as opposed as anyone to a "police state" or to surrendering freedoms. But I am also just as opposed to having my friends and family slaughtered by some psychopath in the name of whatever religion or other cause he espouses.
In the other thread you came across all offended at my supposed ASSumptions. Yet here we are in a new thread and there it is in a far more expiicit form.
I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question.
Would it not be true that Muslims that live in a community and look the other way at best, and encourage/sanction/fund the activities of the terrorists living in their midst at worst, are just as guilty as those who commit the acts?
It seems my reading and comprehension is not so bad after all.
I'll quote myself
What I think will happen is that quietly, moderate British Muslims will begin to call the police and tip them off when they hear of someone shooting his mouth off or acting strangely. Quite simply, the moderates know that their lives will become intolerable if they shelter the extremists. They have nowhere to go after all for the most part. In the end, extremism will mostly damage their own community.
The problem for Muslims right now is that the can't win. In spite of the fact the most people killed by Al Qaeda are in fact Muslim (Shia) in Iraq. Even if they hate what is happening. They are implicated by ignorant people and will be targeted by some.
I'm not so prone as I once was to offer freedom and tolerance to everyone without question.
to demand of the Muslim communities in the free and civilized world that they do more than pay "lip service" to the idea that Islam is NOT in agreement with the terroists that claim their "jihad" is based on the Muslim faith?
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I think that what we are all missing here is the degree... No other terrorist group has been so affiliated with a religion and has done so much horrific damage.
The other thing is that the very nature of a "suicide" bombing shows that the terrorists will stop at nothing... and... that they have plenty of followers to carry out the attacks.... the nature of the targets shows that it is anyone who is not of their belief.... man woman or child, is a target.
The frequency, savagery, targeting and volume exceed what we can allow. They are a genuine world wide threat to anyone who is not a jihad muslim. which is allmost every one of us. There is no pleasing them short of our deaths.
There will be no peace with them short of their deaths. Any support for them is support for the destruction of us all.
lazs
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Most americans who gave to the IRA had no idea that they were giving money to the IRA.
Noraid was the main fundraiser for the IRA in the 70s and 80s. After a court battle it was forced to register as an agent for the IRA, to make it explicitly known that that was where the money they were raising was going.
There were also a string of arms smuggling convictions against Noraid members and their associates.
Escaped terrorist murderers like Joe Doherty were made Grand Marshalls of St Patrick's day parades (Doherty of the New York parade, the largest in the world, Artt and Smyth of San Francisco, etc). Even after 9/11, in 2002 a convicted IRA terrorist was Grand Marshall of the parade in Rockland County, New York.
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Originally posted by lazs2
subaru... your example is fine except... that anti abortion guy did not strap a bunch of explosives on himself and blow up the run of the mill everyday citizen... he targeted abortion doctors and clinics.
That still makes him a murderer but... not much danger to me unless I am in an abortion clinic or an abortion doctor. He doesn't have a training school that is saying that all the people in the U.S. have to die untill they convert to his faith/reasoning.
Let me get this right.... since he was 'only' targeting abortion doctors, and since you were not personally at risk as a result because you don't hang out at abortion clinics, it's not as big a deal?
I find a curious dichotomy in this statement. I'm an atheist, and I have a personal system of what I consider right and wrong that seems to work pretty good for me. It says that I don't need to feel personally threatened by something to see it as right or wrong.
The action itself should stand on its own merit to be judged.
The deafening silence in the christian community against abortion doctor murders and clinic bombers is very troubling, and rather telling. Despite what you say at the bottom of your post above, the christian clinic bombers ARE killing until people convert to their reasoning on the subject. That's the whole idea behind bombing the clinics.
Before throwing rocks, make sure your house isn't made out of glass.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think that what we are all missing here is the degree... No other terrorist group has been so affiliated with a religion and has done so much horrific damage.
lazs
That's not quite true; Laz. The IRA is most definately identified with religion: Catholicism; just as their arch rivals; the UDA (Ulster defense assocsiation) are equally indivisible from thier religion: Anglicanism.
Both are succoured by priests; indeed the UDA is led by one.
I've never heard any religious body; Catholic nor Anglican; decry thier activities other than bland platitudes immeadatly after yet another parent has been blown away in front of his/her kids or particularly graphic pix of kiddies limbs are shown on T.V.
As to degree; the number of deaths due to these groups is higher than the number of American victims of terrorism; up to and including a direct assault on the British government.
However; whilst we've been talking about Bush's "war on terror" for a couple of years now; I've still not seen your government nor ours formaly announce that they will no longer _them selves_ use terror to further their aims.
And if the nuclear powered leaders of "TWOT" refuse to give up this particular means of waging war; why should they expect any one else to?
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sorry if I offended anyone but those are my beleifs. The "war on Terror" is a joke to say the least it should be called the "war on radical islam"
The problem with radical islam is the other "peacfull muslims" seem to by sympothetic to them and the fringe media paint them as freedom fighters vrs terrorists.
lets not suger coat this, basic Islam:
1. seeks extermination of the jews
2. seeks global domination with their way of life as the ideal
3. totally intolerant of those whose lifestyle and views differ from theirs.
does that sound familiar anyone??????
please do not think I'm flaiming or trolling here. The latest bombing in london has put me over the edge when it comes to Islam.
Here you have the most tolerant and accepting of places for muslims (london) and what do they do? Western culture is 10 times more tolerant and accepting of arab and muslim culture yet WE are the ones to blame according to them. We are the ones that are at fualt because they can't assimilate into the 21st century. It is OUR fault that they are losing their culture and have to resort to violence to retain it. PRAISE ALLAH AND PASS THE AK47!!!! (I hope some of you get that)
PS the photo I posted was not a photshop that was really a guy holding a grenade in one hand and a koran in the other.
what makes it worse is you will hardly hear any outcry from most notable muslim leaders when their own blow up a school bus full of kids....even if they are arab. That's a pretty hate filled way to live if you ask me.
Again my appologies if the previous picture went overboard.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Noraid was the main fundraiser for the IRA in the 70s and 80s. After a court battle it was forced to register as an agent for the IRA, to make it explicitly known that that was where the money they were raising was going.
There were also a string of arms smuggling convictions against Noraid members and their associates.
Escaped terrorist murderers like Joe Doherty were made Grand Marshalls of St Patrick's day parades (Doherty of the New York parade, the largest in the world, Artt and Smyth of San Francisco, etc). Even after 9/11, in 2002 a convicted IRA terrorist was Grand Marshall of the parade in Rockland County, New York.
That is digusting and shamefull. Sorry about that Brits.
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Choirboy, mainstream Christians do speak out against murder of abortion doctors .... it just isn't as much of a world wide issue like Islamist terrorism.
I'm pessimistic about the whole ball of wax. I don't see ANY complete solution for this problem - there is nothing we can do or not do that will appease Muslim extremists. All we can do is try to mitigate the threats, try to minimize our vulnerabilities.
The attacks will continue. We will see more Muslims speaking out against terrorism as time and terrorist attacks continue. We will also see a backlash against Muslims in general as Islamist terrorist attacks continue. At the same time, some moderate Muslims may react to any backlash by becoming more extreme. I really think that this clash is part of bin Laden's intentions.
We don't really even need to debate this, or ponder it, or worry about which way things will go.
Terrorist attacks, which have proven to be very effective, will continue. Societies all over the world will inevevitably change in response to it. Its already started.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
In the other thread you came across all offended at my supposed ASSumptions. Yet here we are in a new thread and there it is in a far more expiicit form.
It seems my reading and comprehension is not so bad after all.
I'll quote myself
The problem for Muslims right now is that the can't win. In spite of the fact the most people killed by Al Qaeda are in fact Muslim (Shia) in Iraq. Even if they hate what is happening. They are implicated by ignorant people and will be targeted by some.
Oh, but Muslims CAN win. You fail repeatedly to acknowledge that for DECADES the "mainstream" Muslim community has tolerated and to some degree even encouraged extremism. The London attack is without question a PERFECT example. Note that as it stands now, the investigation has determined that four members of the mainstream Muslim community were the ones who carried out the attacks. Further, they were supposedly indoctrinated by one or more Muslim extremists operating within the mainstream Muslim community. Therefore, the mainstream Muslim community is AT LEAST somewhat responsible, having allowed the extremists to live among them and recruit their children to become homicide bombers. The Muslim community publicly acknowledges that these extremists exist and operate in plain sight.
You took a few quotes out of context to prove your point.
In the thread you speak of, YOU CLAIMED I was advocating blowing up Muslim cities and rounding up Muslims in REVENGE for the attacks.
That assumption is just as false and baseless here as it was there.
Again, nowhere have I said anything about rounding up anyone, or blowing up anything.
I do however expect the Muslims to ACT on their rhetoric. I expect, and well within reason, that they do EVERYTHING within their power to police their community. Just as I expect anyone who is associated with the anti abortion movement to turn in ANYONE who might be planning or advocating violence. Or anyone within the 2nd Amendment supporters to turn in the radical morons that infest the fringes of that group.
And YES, I stand by my postion that if you knowingly harbor people who either commit or encourage extremist violence, you are as guilty as any of them are. You knew about it and you allowed it to happen, you might just as well have built the bomb, or worn it, or pressed the button. Just like any other crime, if you know about it and you allow it to happen, you are guilty of being in the conspiracy. Since the cfrime in question is MURDER, that makes ANYONE who knew about it and did nothing guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.
Now, go show me if you can, any quote from any post by me in either where I advocate blowing up anything or rounding anyone up. Because THAT is what YOU claim.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
sorry if I offended anyone but those are my beleifs. The "war on Terror" is a joke to say the least it should be called the "war on radical islam"
Should it? Does this mean we let every other terrorist group off the hook because they are not Muslims?
Do we leave Columbia(narco terrorists), Spain(ETA), Britain(IRA), The Phillipines(leftist terrorists), etc. on thier own?
I say no, they are all the same and should be treated the same.
One man's terrorist is NOT another mans freedom fighter. they are all terrorists!
lets not suger coat this, basic Islam:
1. seeks extermination of the jews
2. seeks global domination with their way of life as the ideal
3. totally intolerant of those whose lifestyle and views differ from theirs.
does that sound familiar anyone??????
Yes it does. I little known fact is that a lot of mid-upper level NAZIs escaped Germany and fled to the middle east. It's no surprise that some the best selling books in the middle east is Mien Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Should it? Does this mean we let every other terrorist group off the hook because they are not Muslims?
Do we leave Columbia(narco terrorists), Spain(ETA), Britain(IRA), The Phillipines(leftist terrorists), etc. on thier own?
I say no, they are all the same and should be treated the same.
One man's terrorist is NOT another mans freedom fighter. they are all terrorists!
I would agree with you but the fact remains the only terrorists we've faught in the "war on terror" are muslims.
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I agree. All terrorists should be treated the same. The largest group of them are currently the Islamists. So I guess we can justify putting our resources where they will do the most good, on the largest threat.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I would agree with you but the fact remains the only terrorists we've faught in the "war on terror" are muslims.
Because we've been sitting on our hands all these years. We had this "if it's not effecting me it's not worth dealing with" attitude.
We (all civilized nations) must now make it know that these types of actions will absolutly not be tolerated.
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Originally posted by Seeker
That's not quite true; Laz. The IRA is most definately identified with religion: Catholicism; just as their arch rivals; the UDA (Ulster defense assocsiation) are equally indivisible from thier religion: Anglicanism.
Both are succoured by priests; indeed the UDA is led by one.
I've never heard any religious body; Catholic nor Anglican; decry thier activities other than bland platitudes immeadatly after yet another parent has been blown away in front of his/her kids or particularly graphic pix of kiddies limbs are shown on T.V.
As to degree; the number of deaths due to these groups is higher than the number of American victims of terrorism; up to and including a direct assault on the British government.
However; whilst we've been talking about Bush's "war on terror" for a couple of years now; I've still not seen your government nor ours formaly announce that they will no longer _them selves_ use terror to further their aims.
And if the nuclear powered leaders of "TWOT" refuse to give up this particular means of waging war; why should they expect any one else to?
I'm not sure where you are from but I've been a little closer to the issue over the years. I have seen and heard church leaders on both sides repeatedly condem the actions of terrorists. So you are simply incorrect. You would also be wrong in suggesting that the issue is solely religious even though in effect it fell on those lines. The IRA's sole cause is nationalist and republican. The UDA/UVF's cause is remaining British. It wasn't a religious war even if it seemed like that to the uninformed observer.
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chairboyu... I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I found murder ok so long as it wasn't directed at me. that is not the case. I am saying that it is a matter of degree.. the muslim terrorists are way off the scale compared to a few nutball abortion clinic burners or doctor killers.
Your being an athiest has nothing to do with it and I admire someone who has the faith to be an atheist even if I have no idea how you could possibly know and find blind faith like yours a little odd.... many killers and terrorists are athiests... no one has a lock on it.
And... the muslim terrorists are a world wide threat.
As for the guys saying the IRA and it's counterparts are affiliated with religion... that is true enough but I can't think of any catholics who would condone them killing anyone based on religious belief.
I can think of no wing of the catholic church that would support the IRA killing innocent people. If we find such a wing then we need to imprison or kill every living sole within that wing.
lazs
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I knew a few members of my ex wifes catholic and Irish clan who condoned it!
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I knew a few members of my ex wifes catholic and Irish clan who condoned it!
I know plenty too. I have great arguments . I'm constantly accused of being a 'West Brit'. :D Mostly though you get the 'Yes but' arguments. They whinge about the the awfulness of the British. But can't get their heads round the fact of the awfulness of their so called freedom fighters.
I think it's probably the same for many British Muslims. Having said that many will have got a nasty shock. Their ambivalence might now shift into active distaste for extremists.
The 'cause' is all very well. But when the body count starts to mount up. People see the reality.
I know that happened in Ireland as each IRA atrocity shook people into realising they were nothing more than terrorists who brought shame and disgrace to their country.
I suspect many Muslims feel that too.
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One could compare the Islamic internal attitude towards extremists to Catholicisms stance on confession.
One day I'm gonna get sick of them all and start my own Buddhist Jihad Amy of Fat B'stards.
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IMHO I dont think extreme christians who blow up abortion clinics or IRA bombers to be in the same league as islamic terrorists.
Not that they arent as deserving of a noose but that they really arent global in nature. That's not to say that they might not expand but I think when it comes to terrorism Islamic Terrorists really do take the cake.
You'll have to pardon the American ignorance but is the IRA even active anymore? I havnt heard a peep out of them in years in our press.
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Oh they are still around Gunslinger. As the leader of Sinn Fein once famously said. 'They haven't gone away, you know'.
The 'war' is over. Politics is being tried. They don't shoot policeman or soldiers or plant bombs anymore.
At the moment they confine themselves to punishment beatings for teenage delinquents. Robbing banks for their pension fund. Extorting money from honest businessmen and drug dealers. Money laundering and legitimate businesses. Murdering people who upset their members. Generally throwing their weight around in a way that is gradually alienating them from the people who once supported them.
Their nasty offspring. The dissident Republicans. The Real IRA and Continuity IRA are still active but relatively ineffective. since they exploded a bomb on a crowded shopping street in a small town called Omagh killing 28 people.
Since then they have been on everyone's hate list including the PIRA.
That was a pivotal moment. It changed attitudes. Hopefully the London bombings will do the same for those Muslims inclined to think the terrorists cause is justified.
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cpx... exactly... since they killed all those inocents they are on "everyones hate list"... even the guys who would condone them killing cops and soldiers and mafia like crime..
With these muslims and their supporters no crime is to great to appease allah... 50 frigging virgins time.. kill the infidels.. crash airliners full of families into buildings full of families? worth it for allah the good.... bomb a subway? allah will give you 50 virgins and all your friends will smile on you. maybe some sheik will give your family a bunch of money.
people don't see the difference? they are blind.
lazs
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Yes I know quite few few people who winge about our awfullness, but they still want to live here! That was true of my ex wifes family as it was true of my muslim computer engineer. If you don't like it sod off and live in those places you profess to like thats what I say.
Me I happen to like it here. ( good job realy! ;) :lol )
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Originally posted by lazs2
It is so obvious that the guy is not following christian principals and there are SO FEW christians doing what he does that he is not worth mentioning by other christians... There is no christian jihad.
lazs
And not mentioning it was exactly what most Christians did. :(
Those who are not Christian may disagree with you about there not being a Christian Jihad.
Let us take care of the fanatics here in America first.
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Originally posted by Silat
And not mentioning it was exactly what most Christians did. :(
Those who are not Christian may disagree with you about there not being a Christian Jihad.
Let us take care of the fanatics here in America first.
when was the last terrorist suicide bombing attack committed by a Christian in America.
It's funny how there are more acts of violence recently committed by MUSLIMS in the name of Islam and Allah yet this conversation has been completly turned into how bad Christians and the IRA seem to be????
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In their heart of hearts I think most muslims deeply respect the suicide bombers.
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There is a truth there Pongo. Perhaps they have an innate understanding of what motivates them. I think Islam or at least the version the come from the Arabs comes with a distaste for the infidel.
In Antoine de Saint-Exupery book 'Wind, Sand, and Stars'. He describes how Arabs would often spit when they came in contact with Europeans. Not so much in disgust at the people themselves but because they felt they were contaminated by being close to an infidel.
He alse describes a old Sheik who was loyal to the French but who suddenly one day murdered the French officers assigned to him.
Saint Ex speculated that the Sheik in coming to the end of his life realised that his association and dealings with the infidel might have compromised him for the next life. In attacking the French he somehow purged his sin.
If you apply that kind of thinking to suicide bombers. You could think they were somehow purging their contamination. Their Britishness compromised their religious principles. The fact that they may kill Muslims too wouldn't bother them. Those Muslims are contaminated too.
For the same reason maybe that is how a suicide bomber can drive up to a group of children accepting sweets from American soldiers and kill them all as happened earlier this week.
Al Qaeda is Arab in origin and perhaps what we seeing is a massive evil corruption of what St-Ex observed in the thirties.
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Originally posted by Silat
And not mentioning it was exactly what most Christians did. :(
Those who are not Christian may disagree with you about there not being a Christian Jihad.
Let us take care of the fanatics here in America first.
I`m afraid fanatic would have to be defined first of all.
By whom?
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dont think so cp. I just think they feel that they are justified in engaging in war and that is the only war they have to engage in.
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hmm the muslim's i know dont respect what the suicide bobmber's do .
And this is from a muslim country , OMAN , the people i talk to are horrified.
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silat... no, let's not take care of the christian nuts first... let's take care of all of the nuts at the same time but let's allocate resources to the highest threat.. the muslims.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
when was the last terrorist suicide bombing attack committed by a Christian in America.
Gunny, the "best" thing that a suicide bomber is that they can't do it again.
I don't feel less of the Oklahoma Fed building terrorist attack just 'cause they weren't suicide bombers. McVay and his group are true cowards. Easy to kill others and go run and hide, but not when it comes to dying for their "cause."
It takes a fanatic to kill other innocent people in the name of a cause, it takes an even bigger fanatic to kill themselves deliberately in the attempted attack (not all suicide attacks are successful).
For us trying to lump the vast majority of peaceful muslims in the same group as the fanatic fraction might be the bigger crime in the long run. Nothing good will come out of the prejudice. Never has, never will.
We have far less to fear of the muslims than they do of us.
We have a means of destroying their very existence (right now, of our choosing) than they do of us.
They may hit us here or there, but we will survive as a nation with our way of life. The same cannot be said of them and their way of life.
We shouldn't act like we fear them.