Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Clifra Jones on July 13, 2005, 01:57:46 PM
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http://au.news.yahoo.com/050713/15/v2z8.html
Thursday July 14, 04:14 AM
Italy police detain 174 people in anti-terror sweep
ROME (Reuters) - Police raided scores of homes and detained 174 people across Italy on Wednesday in a sweeping anti-terrorism crackdown on suspected Islamic militants.
"The operation has been prepared for some time and confirms Italy has never lowered its guard in the face of terrorist risks," Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu told journalists.
The crackdown, involving 201 search warrants from Milan to Naples, follows last week's deadly attacks in London and comes a day after Pisanu warned that terrorism was "knocking on Italy's door" and urged parliament to strengthen security laws to prevent an attack. ADVERTISEMENT
"I'm not saying that we have seized terrorists. It's a preventative operation in high-risk environments," Pisanu said before the announcement of detentions.
The ministry said those detained were not under formal arrest, but were among 423 people being checked out. It said some of the detainees were being questioned over their legal status in Italy.
No further details were immediately available.
The search warrants were issued to look for illegal arms and explosives, a spokesman for the ministry's public security department said.
"About 200 search warrants are currently being carried out," said the spokesman, who did not want to be named. "They are related to controlling radical Islam throughout the country."
Police sources said they were investigating a wide range of crimes, from falsifying documents to terrorism.
Raids were carried out in a number of cities across Italy, but investigations were focused on Milan, Rome, Turin and Naples, Interior Ministry sources said.
Also on Wednesday, an Italian judge convicted two Islamic militants on terrorism charges in a case related to a plot to attack a Milan subway station and a church in the northern city of Cremona in 2002.
On Tuesday, Pisanu called for beefed-up controls at Italy's borders and an extension of the period a suspect can be detained for identification from 12 to 24 hours, among other measures.
Last Thursday's bombings of three underground stations and a bus in London killed at least 52 people and wounded 700.
Italy has been on edge since the blasts and has had to deal with a series of bomb threats. In recent days, Rome has evacuated a terminal at its international airport, a street near the interior minister's home and the offices of a major bank.
Britain and Spain, which have suffered major attacks, both supported the U.S.-led war in Iraq, stirring fears that Italy and other U.S. allies could be targeted too.
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so we dont have a clue?
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Originally posted by Furball
so we dont have a clue?
Up until 7/7 in a lot of ways i don't think your leadership did.
And I say the same thing about some of my own countries leadership before and after 9/11.
I will say that the level of police work shown by the British authorities in the last few days is nothing sort of outstanding.
Apparently the Italians didn't give a snot whether they offended any of these people's "sensativities" before they rounded them up.
If we continue to place offending some person or goups feelings over the security of our people, a mushroom cloud will one day rise above one of our cities.
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One thing I REALLY like about the Italian effort is the concept of keeping the terrorist types on the defensive. The US attitude of 'identify, observe and report' vs the Italian attitude of 'identify, arrest and detain/interrogate' seems kinda refreshing.
'
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No not really Furball.
In fact I saw on the news this morning how the London Police are actually paying to bring in a radical Muslim from Switzerland for some unknown reason.
Your country has all kinds of laws against hate speech yet radical Muslims are given a pass when they preach their 'hate'.
Your own BBC is afraid to call them 'terrorists'.
From the impression I have gotten is that a lot of Police and politicians are some what overly concerned with a counter reaction against the peoples of Islam rather then doing what's necessary to shut down the hate factories to begin with.
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I'm sorry, this does not rectify Italy's downfalls.
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Is this the 2nd sweep in Italy? I could have sworn I saw the same thing over a week ago.
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So we are clueless because we have had 1 terrorist attack in (how many years?) here despite the threat of the IRA and newer organisations. We are clueless despite the experience of god knows how many years fighting the IRA?
We are clueless because 4 'British' crazy 'muslims' who's family and friends were clueless to their motives, with no previous criminal activity, travel by train into central London with backpacks like any other student and decide to blow themselves up.
Whatever.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13386392,00.html
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13386163,00.html
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188946,00.html
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This is going down fast folks. All you back-seat drivers need to get with the program and think before you type. How many of you are privvy to first hand information on the why's and how's of the British empire?
How many of you making claims the BBC is afraid to use the word 'terrorist' have a first hand contact with the BBC as to why they really do what they do?
Do not speculate as if it were fact as that leads to nothing but a thread full of angry people. Thinkg before you type. Make guesses, make speculations, but do not post presuming you have first hand accounts on all these matters, when in fact, you probably do not.
This post is an attempt to allow this discussion to continue, but it is up to you. Make it ugly and it will be locked.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
This post is an attempt to allow this discussion to continue, but it is up to you. Make it ugly and it will be locked.
i have no problem with this thread apart from the title which makes out that the country that i live is clueless. in fact, the title made me very pissed off.
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The brits seem to be doing an oustanding job on this.. we ALL know that keeping an open society means that we (and I mean ALL of us, both sides of the pond) will always be vulnerable to this kind of attack.
Hang in there Englanders.. mop 'em up; put 'em away. We're with yah on this!
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There Furball. I have to agree the title was pretty bad. Class A troll material there.
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Guys,
I don't have much time to post today. But I did want to point out that until recently Italy had one of the worst records on fighting terror in Europe.
In fact, those of you familiar with the Achille Lauro hijacking will remember that when the US forced the plane carrying Abu Abbas, then head of the PLF and the mastermind of that operation, down at Sigonella, the Italians bent over backwards to ensure that Abbas was released going so far as to disguise him, give him diplomatic immunity, and fly him out of Rome to a safe haven. Abbas was captured again by the USA in Iraq fairly recently, but only after having been granted several additional years in which to follow his calling.
On the whole, the UK has consistently been a much stronger ally in the war against Islamic terror networks and a more consistent enforcer of international anti-terrorism agreements than Italy.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
There Furball. I have to agree the title was pretty bad. Class A troll material there.
thank you. :)
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So we are clueless because we have had 1 terrorist attack in (how many years?)
Who said that?
You asked:
so we dont have a clue?
My reply was given irrespective of the '1 terrorist attack in (how many years?)'.
We are clueless because 4 'British' crazy 'muslims' who's family and friends were clueless to their motives, with no previous criminal activity, travel by train into central London with backpacks like any other student and decide to blow themselves up.
Who said that?
I think you must be confusing the conversation in this thread with one some where else.
I never said or implied 'Britain deserved what they got ...'
All you back-seat drivers need to get with the program and think before you type. How many of you are privvy to first hand information on the why's and how's of the British empire?
I guess the 'back-seat driver' you think 'needs to get with the program' is me.
Whatever that means...
I am not sure what Furball's question (or my reply) has to do with the 'why's and how's of the British empire?'. FYI they haven't been an 'empire' in sometime, just ask them...
Do not speculate as if it were fact as that leads to nothing but a thread full of angry people.
What I posted is not 'specualtion' it's an answer to a question asked by another poster.
If need be I will back up my 'speculation' with facts. However, I imagine you will have either deleted this reply or locked the thread by the time I am finished.
If you would like me to please say so. If not folks can certainly search the news for themselves.
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Edited to stop this now.
I was going to post some news articles to counter Furballs comments but it's not worth any hard feelings to attempt to win an argument.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
There Furball. I have to agree the title was pretty bad. Class A troll material there.
Agreed, that was not the intention.
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If I mean to say something directly to someone, I say it directly to someone.
But, now that you bring it up, you said;
"Your own BBC is afraid to call them 'terrorists'."
Do you really know why they do not use the term? Or are you just guessing? The fact they do not use it, does not mean they are afraid to use it. If your facts are firsthand knowledge, then I apologize for the poor example I used. If your source is some news media bite, then you are basing your opinion on someone else's opinion, but stating it as if it were fact.
And that is what I am getting at. When you do that it just serves to stir the pot.
EDIT: Clifra, I figured you did not mean it that way. If you prefer another title, I will be happy to change it. It was hte closest thing I could come up with in short notice.
EDIT2: Wotan, let me make this perfectly clear, for everyone as a matter of fact. Emotion plays no factor in dealing with this board. None. I do not get mad, I do not get glad, I just try to help make this place a decent place for discussions.
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Originally posted by Furball
i have no problem with this thread apart from the title which makes out that the country that i live is clueless. in fact, the title made me very pissed off.
That was not my intention at all. In fact I should have replace the word Europe with World as we in this country have not done that good a job of stopping the hate mongers either.
It just struck me as engouraging that the Italian were actually doing something "before" innocent people died.
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Wotan. My response was directly from the title:-
"So we dont have a clue?"
you responded "not really"
So i justified why i felt we are experienced with terrorism and how that the recent attacks were un-preventable due to the nature of the terrorists (see the links i posted), no matter what precautions we took. So, in fact, we do have a clue... barring Israel, we are probably amongst those most experienced in dealing with terrorism.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
EDIT: Clifra, I figured you did not mean it that way. If you prefer another title, I will be happy to change it. It was hte closest thing I could come up with in short notice.
Nope, works for me.
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Originally posted by Furball
Wotan. My response was directly from the title:-
"So we dont have a clue?"
you responded "not really"
So i justified why i felt we are experienced with terrorism and how that the recent attacks were un-preventable due to the nature of the terrorists (see the links i posted), no matter what precautions we took. So, in fact, we do have a clue... barring Israel, we are probably amongst those most experienced in dealing with terrorism.
I agree with you 100% in that a determined killer with a suicide wish can cause 'terror' in even the most 'closed' societies.
The only ones to blame for those terror acts in London are those that planned and carried it out. As Hangtime said in an open society (which I am sure we all prefer even if it doesn't apply to this forum :p) it is hard to just start rounding people up based just on minimal suspicion.
In the US even with the Patriot act we don't have some of the legal tools that Britain and the some EU nations have.
My point was that (and correct me if I am wrong) that Britain has certain hate-speech laws and from what I have read these are rarely enforced against some of the more radical and extreme elements with in the British Islamic community. I sited the fact that the London Police were helping to pay for a radical Cleric to come to London from Switzerland.
This is not to say 'America has more of a clue' we do our own share of 'clueless shyte'.
FYI, When I read the title I didn't immediately assume the 'clueless' reference was toward Britain but could apply to any number of Nations.
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Well, i wouldnt expect you to as you are not in europe!
if i said "at least someone in north america has a clue!" and did a post about canada i'm sure you would be a little irked too ;)
As for the laws on "hate speech", they have been very relaxed, there was the guy (Abu Hamza?) who is currently under ongoing house arrest for inciting racial hatred at a north london mosque. It is hard to enforce such laws when, as it has been said, we are free and open societies. Freedom of speech and all that. However, Blair is trying to push for new laws to prevent this.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13386396,00.html
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If I mean to say something directly to someone, I say it directly to someone.
But, now that you bring it up, you said;
"Your own BBC is afraid to call them 'terrorists'."
Do you really know why they do not use the term? Or are you just guessing? The fact they do not use it, does not mean they are afraid to use it. If your facts are firsthand knowledge, then I apologize for the poor example I used. If your source is some news media bite, then you are basing your opinion on someone else's opinion, but stating it as if it were fact.
And that is what I am getting at. When you do that it just serves to stir the pot.
Well there was only one person that directly mentioned Britain in reference to 'clueless'. Thats was me but as an answer to Furball. The original poster didn't say Britain was clueless, that was an assumption (ie speculation) on the part of others.
So you can clearly see where I took your general statement to mean me, after all who else made such a direct reference?
My source for how the BBC decides to refer to those who committed the terrible acts in London is not some biased editorial opinion but the BBC itself. They have a fear of offending the Islamic community on the one hand and a fear of contributing to any lash back some elements of the British Public make make on innocent Islamists.
This fear of 'offense' and 'vigilantism' has been echoed by various British news organization and expressed by the British PM himself.
Wotan, let me make this perfectly clear, for everyone as a matter of fact. Emotion plays no factor in dealing with this board. None. I do not get mad, I do not get glad, I just try to help make this place a decent place for discussions.
The original poster never said directly that 'Britain was clueless' those assumptions were made by 'emotional people' and understandably so.
You replied with:
This is going down fast folks. All you back-seat drivers need to get with the program and think before you type. How many of you are privvy to first hand information on the why's and how's of the British empire?
That sure reads like an emotional response to me.
'get with the program'..?
Who talks like that? :p
Any who, its your playground set what ever rules you want...
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Everyone I know talks like that. It's just 'as a matter of fact' kind of thing.
As far as the rules go. If you really, honestly looked at them. They are only there to keep the board decent and respectful. If you, or anyone else, dose not like that, then so be it.
People are just wierd when they think they are being restricted. Intelligent people act like children when they think thier lollipop has been taken away from them.
People get paranoid and think someone is out to get them.
I realize those are generalities and do not apply to everyone, but I find it really bizarre how people will strive to make someone else the bad guy, when in fact, the only bad guy there can be is the poster themself.
I have often wondered about the people who insist on labeling people. According to Webster's that would be bigotry. Does not seem to bother some people though.
People make a lot of assumptions about how things are, how they think they are, or how who is doing what using which motives.
Here is a suggestion. Stop worrying about it and just discuss. If you have a fundamental problem with being civil towards others, or have no concept of right from wrong, then no amount of control is going to hide it long and it will just serve to make that person angry they cannot emit thier explosive poop on the unsuspecting masses.
You know what? We all have rules to live by. They may be personal rules or philosophies which we use everyday to live by, but they are rules which govern us. You do not have to like them, but you should respect them. We ask for no more or less.
EDIT: Clifra, I apologize for this blatant hijack. Wotan, if you want to discuss this further, email me. Thank you.