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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1K3 on July 15, 2005, 09:15:10 PM

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: 1K3 on July 15, 2005, 09:15:10 PM

I hear that 190As doesnt stand a chance against a P-47Ds in AH

Now in IL2FB or WB, is P-47D vs 190A different or similar to AH when dueling?

Title: Re: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Grits on July 15, 2005, 10:49:09 PM

Quote

Originally posted by 1K3
I hear that 190As doesnt stand a chance against a P-47Ds in AH

I wouldnt say that, the A-5 is especially a good match for the P-47's. P-47's are much better at very slow speed turning stability and has the excellent high speed flaps of all US planes, but the A-5 owns the verticle against them, outclimbs them by a wide margin and outrolls them by a greater amount. I do think the P-47's are better overall, but its a close run thing, and it matters more who is flying each plane than any performance difference.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Ghosth on July 16, 2005, 06:48:44 AM

I'd say its so close that it comes down to pilot more than the plane.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Flyboy on July 16, 2005, 07:42:27 AM

the P47 was a dog in warbirds. no idea how it does now, since i quit it 3 years ago.

in AH a P47 vrs a 190A5 is a good fight, each has different advantages.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Wilbus on July 16, 2005, 01:03:52 PM

P47 will easily outturn the 190 A5 thanks to combat flaps. If the 190 can get the speed down low enough to extend some flaps it might be able to keep up but don't bet on it.

Low speed the 190's best weaopn is roll rate, Jug rolls like a dead cow at slow speeds.

Climb, well yes it does climb better (the A5) and zoom is about the same IMO.

The P47 has got lots more choices IMO thanks to better turn rate, something that is very imoprtant in AH MA.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 16, 2005, 04:39:09 PM

The Fw190A-5 is sorely outmatched by any AH P-47.


 For one thing, the timeline itself is wrong. The A-5 is a '43 plane, all of our P-47s are '44 planes. Maybe if it was against a slower, '43 P-47C, the Fw190A-5 would have some options to fly by. But against any of our P-47s, just plain fodder.

 The only advantage the A-5 has got is the climb, roll, acceleration, firepower. However, the difference between the P-47 and the Fw190A-5 in climb and accel, is not really something spectacular.

 Maybe if it was a 109, the climb and accel advantage would mean something. But the small amount of climb/accel advantage the A-5 has over a P-47 is null at best.

 So basically, the P-47s outrun and outturn the Fw190A-5 easily. Against someting that both outturns and outruns, any plane is in serious trouble.

 To make matters worse, all the Fw190s are absolute pigs at slow speeds. No turn capability at all.

 I mean, if it was something like a Bf109G vs a La-7... the La-7 both outturns and outruns the 109.. but the 109 can still maneuver somewhat at slow speeds. A well timed overshoot might give a solid opportunity as the La-7 passes by, and the 109 will start maneuvering behind it to grab hold to the lucky opportunity...

 But the 190s?
 
 Not a snowball's chance in hell.

 It's typically like this:

1. The P-47 comes in to latch on. Flaps out, rudders kicked, dumping E.

2. The 190 hopes for an overshoot... kicks rudder.. chops throttle.. and rolls crazy... Okay! The 190 succeeded in an overshoot!

3. So what? The P-47 sees that he is overshot. Immediately turns sharp to one side. Ut-oh.. too bad. Despite the overshoot, the 190 just refuses to move at that slow speed. All it can do is fly straight.

4. The P-47D, after being overshot, just simply turns until he gets behind the 190 again. Game over.



 ALL the cards are with the P-47.

 The only card the Fw190A-5's got is the lucky , first-cross snapshot. A short burst and maybe with luck, it might kill the P-47 flap or elevator or some other vital component.. and only .then it's got at least 50:50 chance.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Morpheus on July 16, 2005, 04:50:01 PM

I can see many of you haven't seen NathBDP's 190-A8 lately. :)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 16, 2005, 05:06:02 PM

Maybe you didn't see Drex's P-47 at all?

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Grits on July 16, 2005, 05:47:37 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Morpheus
I can see many of you haven't seen NathBDP's 190-A8 lately. :)

and

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe you didn't see Drex's P-47 at all?

Both of you are correct, which validates those of us that say between these two planes its the pilot that counts more than which plane they are flying.

Keassa, the A-5 has a huge advantage in climb (1100 FPM) over the D-11/D-25 and an equal size advantage in acceleration. The A-4 climbs at near 4K FPM at low levels, and the D-11/D-25 cant even crack 3K FPM, on top of that the WEP in the A-5 lasts twice as long as the P-47's. I agree with you that the P-47's are better overall, for the reasons you stated, but I think you make the true performance difference far greater than it really is.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 16, 2005, 06:10:29 PM

Grits, the only alt range where the A-5's climb rate advantage is big enough to make any real use, is between 0~10k feet.

 Above that altitude,


1) Against a P-47D-11, the Fw190A-5 has about 700fpm advantage max. Above 23k the D-11 outclimbs

2) Against a P-47D-25, the Fw190A-5 has less than 500fpm advantage max. Above 22k the D-25 outclimbs

3) Against a P-47D-40, the D-40 outclimbs the A-5 at all altitudes except 15~20k range. Between 15~20k, the A-5 holds about 200fpm advantage max.

 Unfortunately, as alt grows, so does speed.

* The P-47D-11 on military power, is as fast as the Fw190A-5 on WEP.

* The P-47D-25 and D-40 on military power, is about 10 mph slower than the Fw190A-5 at WEP.

 So.. as you climb higher and higher, the chances of you being caught are also higher. If the jug gets bored of the 190 climbing away, it can just turn and run, and the A-5 still can't catch any of the jugs.

 Basically, if you duke it out with any P-47 with an A-5, and you mess it up a but and decide to climb away, the chances are the P-47s will catch you long before the vertical separation is large enough to offer any kind of sanctuary from 8x .50s.

 Ofcourse, this would mean something if you were higher than the P-47 from the very beginning.. then the A-5 would be able to BnZ the Jug to its death...

 But under normal, coalt, 1vs1 conditions... its meaningless. With pilot skills being roughly equal, I'd bet on the P-47 everytime.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Grits on July 16, 2005, 07:37:16 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
Grits, the only alt range where the A-5's climb rate advantage is big enough to make any real use, is between 0~10k feet.

 Above that altitude,

I rarely fly more than 3k AGL so I dont care how they match up at 20k. :)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: SirLoin on July 16, 2005, 08:01:30 PM

In the DA I would take the A5..It climbs better and has much more WEP...Use the verticle and with patience should win every time.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Pongo on July 16, 2005, 10:19:49 PM

I would take a 190D9 vs a P47D40 any day. But thats me.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Stang on July 17, 2005, 01:50:44 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo
I would take a 190D9 vs a P47D40 any day. But thats me.

You've never faced a truly good P-47 driver then.  There is no contest between these two rides.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: JB42 on July 17, 2005, 02:17:14 AM

While your points are valid Kwes, I rarely see any Jug pilot go into a flaps out turn fight above 10k. Therefore the A5 now holds the advantage in both climb and acceleration.

In all my encounters with P47s (which i usually win ;) ), it comes down to the biggest advantage the A5 holds, armament. While sometimes i do get my paint scratched by 50 cals, in a slow twisting fight it comes down to damage done with a short burst. I'll take cannons everytime.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 17, 2005, 08:07:25 AM

Quote

While your points are valid Kwes, I rarely see any Jug pilot go into a flaps out turn fight above 10k.

 Well. That's true...

 But then again, for that very same reason, I rarely see any jug pilot in  the first place. The jug, is just not a "MA" plane.

Quote

In all my encounters with P47s (which i usually win ), it comes down to the biggest advantage the A5 holds, armament. While sometimes i do get my paint scratched by 50 cals, in a slow twisting fight it comes down to damage done with a short burst. I'll take cannons everytime.

 For me, the typical jug encounter, is not fighting him at all unless I'm like 5k above him... but then again, a typical 190A sortie is always like that. At least, all my sorties are.

 I have no fantasies about the 190A. Anything I can outrun, I'll try and fight it as much as I can. Turn fights.. E fights.. BnZs.. But against anything faster, I'll just give up.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Overlag on July 17, 2005, 11:35:11 AM

i like both the 190a5 and the 47d11.

im sure the new model will make the 47d11 even better vs the 190s though. not sure why AH models german planes so bad....... but thats another subject ;)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: ghi on July 17, 2005, 10:24:41 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Overlag


 not sure why AH models german planes so bad....... but thats another subject ;)

 yep, i agree, after 3-4 years playing this game this is still the worst disapointment. The  german aces wouldn't make 200- 300 +victories, if the german planes would  have been soo bad.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: 1K3 on July 17, 2005, 10:37:57 PM

I've also read some journal from a fighter pilot (net) sayingf that their P-47 can turn with the "jerries" up high. For low alts, hmmmm im not sure but again P-47 is great at hi-alt.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: JAWS2003 on July 18, 2005, 01:53:31 PM

This is how the early P-47's matched against FW-190 in June 1943 at 26000 feet and 6000 feet:


I don't think you can get to this conclusions in AH.



(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/images/p47-fw190-3.jpg)

(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/images/p47-fw190-4.jpg)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Westy on July 18, 2005, 03:07:22 PM

"this is still the worst disapointment."

 I gotta chuckle when I read someone compare the  MA game environment, with it's in-cockpit AWACs radar, ICONs and over all fantasy environment, to real life combat in WWII.

 Then again maybe the USAAF, RAF and LW pilots really did ***** about each others flight model, weapons load outs, lag, HO's, perk points, others not "fighting" thier way, the give-away icons, FB-111 awacs radar, arena resets, augering suicidal runstangs and about always running into gangbanging hordes.



p.s. the charts from 1943 were for the early C model which was imo a pig. The D with it's paddle blade prop and other improvements was a different horse.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Hajo on July 18, 2005, 03:14:42 PM

By the way....fastest Jug through the D Model was the P47C.

Top speed listed at 433 considerably faster then the B which is about 4mph faster then A model FWs and Spit9

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Overlag on July 18, 2005, 03:20:34 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Westy
"this is still the worst disapointment."

 I gotta chuckle when I read someone compare the  MA game environment, with it's in-cockpit AWACs radar, ICONs and over all fantasy environment, to real life combat in WWII.

 Then again maybe the USAAF, RAF and LW pilots really did ***** about each others flight model, weapons load outs, lag, HO's, perk points, others not "fighting" thier way, the give-away icons, FB-111 awacs radar, arena resets, augering suicidal runstangs and about always running into gangbanging hordes.



p.s. the charts from 1943 were for the early C model which was imo a pig. The D with it's paddle blade prop and other improvements was a different horse.

this is how i feal about the whole thing

if its american, take the BEST case report on the aircraft, with best fuel, best engine best maintainance etc.

if its German/Japanise, take the worst case report, flown by some newbie who has no idea how to fly . The plane is also kitted out wrong and runs on "bad fuel".

If its British, it doesnt matter, they didnt fight the war aparently. Put them under the German/Japanise list.

But no one is really at fault there. The winners of the war write the history, not the loosers.

Thats why the 38/47/51 are the best planes of the war according to everyone.

I mean its hard for 12x 38/47/51s to not win against 4x 109/190s isnt it?

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Urchin on July 18, 2005, 03:46:37 PM

HTC has modelled the LW planes as being more than competitive, in my opinion.  

The G-10 absolutely dominates the P-51/47/38, and the G-6 is roughly on par with them.  The 190 is a bit tougher to fly in, but in my opinion the A5 is quite good against the US iron, the A8 is a little underwhelming (which is odd, although people have gone round and round about it for years) and the D-9 is also quite good, although it really isn't a "dogfighter".

Of course, that seems to match up reasonably well with the idea that the FW-190 was a great plane for a beginner or average pilot, but an experienced pilot could really get more out of a 109.

I know I preferred the 190 for a long time, until I came to realize that the 109 was superior for fighting.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 18, 2005, 08:05:54 PM

That's very interesting Urchin :)  It seems you and I've gone opposite ways, tho' I'm not a good pilot like you.

 My interest was always with the 109s. I was a 109 fan since Aces of Europe.. EAW.. Fighter Ace.. and eventually Aces High. As an AH newbie since 1.05, I never for once touched Spits or N1K2s in the beginning, and learned the entire AH game from the 109 pilots' point of view.

 The superior climb was awesome.. the plane itself is IMO one of the most slick and beautiful in WW2... and there was something about its style - not a real diver.. not a turner.. but a hybrid type of fighter utilizing short bursts of speed and quick in-and-out attacks.

 The problem is, since the AH population boom, the MA sort of in its own unique way, started resembling the real war. Every fight is a multi-engagement environment.. the battles became more hectic.. and the 1vs1 fights just never happens anymore, unless you're willing to be surrounded by 5 more enemies at low altitudes right after you shoot one guy down.

 And surprisingly, while I felt a lot safer in 109Gs, it was the 190As that started giving out really successful sorties. Massive firepower.. delightful high speed maneuvering.. this is something the 109 just doesn't have.

 And since I'm techincally an average pilot, I think I'm beginning to understand why Galland wanted to stop 109 production and rely entirely on 190s... simple plane.. simple planning.. simple attacks..

 Currently, I almost entirely gave up on 109s.. I'm flying the 190A-8 now.. this plane is THE multi-engagement, cherrypick king! :D Just be sure to run away at the right moment.. and the 190 is everything the 109 is not... and I like it. :)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: SirLoin on July 18, 2005, 09:45:36 PM

Damn good read Kweesa...I agree on the 190A8 too..Lol!

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: bozon on July 19, 2005, 04:05:39 AM

Quote

Originally posted by JAWS2003
This is how the early P-47's matched against FW-190 in June 1943 at 26000 feet and 6000 feet:


I don't think you can get to this conclusions in AH.
 

That report was made by the RAF. They really did not like jug in the beggining after being used to their spits.

From the same place you linked here's another report from early 44 with P47D4. It had water injection but I think still no paddle blade prop at that time. results are different.

(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/images/p47-fw190.jpg)
(http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/images/p47-fw190-2.jpg)

Bozon

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: hogenbor on July 19, 2005, 04:58:46 AM

I've been flying occasionally for about three years here in AH and I am average at best.

In my opinion the Fw-190A is a dog in AH. The A-5 feels quite agile because of decent acceleration and excellent rate of roll but falls apart once you need to turn, especially at low speeds. Even at high speed the stall horn goes off at the slightest provocation of turning and I also have flown in into the ground because the plane couldn't pull out tightly enough. Not because of compression, just unable to pull out.

The A8 is useless if you have to fight someone 1v1. There are undoubtely guys that can be succesful in it, but put pilots of equal skill in an A8 and almost any other fighter and the guy in the A8 will lose.

The 109s have weaknesses but the G10 is uber indeed. Nothing can catch you. But how often do you manage to HIT anyone when flying the G10? (same holds true for the D9) I can evade anything, but to kill anything in it I need to get very close, preferably when the intended victim is not aware of me. A well flown Spit V can evade the G10 forever.

Almost all historical 'evidence' about WWII air combat has been overturned at least three times since I started flying, but doesn't anyone agree that an Fw-190A (in general) should be a perfect match for the Spit IX? Not in AH, look at their eny values! Of course pilot skill should play a role, but that much?

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 19, 2005, 06:40:35 AM

Maybe you'd find my turn radius testings interesting guys. Currently, I've finished from a6m2 upto P-38s and going on the rest of the P, S, T planes..  It was a massive test, and I've found some interesting pointers about a lot of planes to chew about.

 I'll post it at the AV forums in a few days, but just to help the discussions, these are the results I've got for the Fw190s:

Quote

Test Criteria:

Weapons/Ammunition
1. standard weapons loadout was preferred
2. for planes with different armament loadouts the most preferred
   loadout was chosen (ie. 20mm options on the C.205)
3. planes with alternate standard loadouts were tested accordingly
   (ie. Bf109G with 20mms and 30mms were tested separately)
4. for planes with different ammo settings, the most preferred
   loadout was chosen (ie. 3400 rounds of M2 50cal for the P-47s)
5. external loadouts, were not used (ie. rocket pods, gun pods, bomb racks)

Fuel
1. fuel is set to 75%

Throttle
1. planes were tested at maximum possible throttle setting

Altitude
1. altitude was between 0~500ft
2. variance in altitude during turn tests, were contained to
   less than 100ft change in altitude

Flaps
1. turn performance was tested with;
   normal, one notch, full flaps individually

Stall Limiter settings
1. turn performance was tested with the Stall Limiter method, minimizing human errors
   SL angle is set to 0.05
2. for planes that cannot handle 0.05 due to various reasons (such as leading edge slats)
   the appropriate SL angle was tested. In most cases, 1.0 to 1.3 SL angle was used.
3. In the case of planes using SL setting higher than 0.05, it translates to;

  "the higher the SL angle required for testing, the more difficult that particular
   plane is, to control during turns"

Test subject
1. All "fighter" class planes except the Me262A-1 and the Me163B, are tested
2. the tested area of performance is defined as follows;

 'time required to turn one full circle (360 degrees), while maintaining
   tightest turn radius possible'

 ....

 Results for the Aces High2 Fw190s:

------------------------------
Type (SL angle used)
- time to complete under normal setting (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under one notch of flap (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under full flap (average turn speed), radius
------------------------------


Fw190A-5 (1.0/1.5)
- 21 seconds (180mph), 269.0m
- 21 seconds (162mph), 242.1m
- N/A

Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5)
4xMG151/20
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 21 seconds (171mph), 255.6m
- N/A
2xMG151/20, 2xMK108
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 23 seconds (172mph), 281.6m
- N/A

Fw190D-9 (1.0/1.5)
- 22 seconds (181mph), 283.4m
- 21 seconds (172mph), 257.1m
- N/A

Fw190F-8 (1.0/1.5)
- 23 seconds (179mph), 293.0m
- 22 seconds (171mph), 267.8m
- N/A


Notes:
* Fw190s cannot keep turn tight enough to extend full flaps
* Fw190A-8 with MK108 turns a bit worse than standard 4x20mm, at slow speeds
* The AH Fw190D-9, really does outturn the AH Fw190A-8. Fact finally confirmed.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: SirLoin on July 19, 2005, 06:55:39 AM

Ya but an A8 w %75 gas  has way more fuel tahn a dora..equal gas I would take A8 in a turn contest..

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 19, 2005, 07:51:46 AM

True, SirLoin.

 The A-8 at 75% fuel load has the aux tanks totally empty and about 25% of the aft tanks burnt. The D-9 at 75% has less fuel in the aft tanks than the A-8, since it got no aux tanks.

 It was a bit difficult in trying to determine the fuel load for the planes.

 I've tried setting individual fuel levels for the planes this way and that way.. but more and more I tried to do that, it seemed that every plane had an "excuse" for itself, and more exemptions were made everytime a plane was tested out.

 If two people take off in a D-9 and A-8 with 100% fuel, the A-8 will always have more fuel than the D-9. One may argue that the A-8 might take-off with lower fuel load.. but frankly, if we go this way there's juft no way to measure objective performance of a plane.

 My conclusion is that the fuel load is itself, a part of the plane. Testing out a plane that carry large fuel loads with only 25% or 50% fuel load, and then comparing that with lighter planes with 75% or 100% - this is basically making the numbers up as one pleases.

 So I just gave that up and decided to stick with the 'generic 75%'.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: hammer on July 19, 2005, 09:04:54 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe you'd find my turn radius testings interesting guys. Currently, I've finished from a6m2 upto P-38s and going on the rest of the P, S, T planes..  It was a massive test, and I've found some interesting pointers about a lot of planes to chew about.

 I'll post it at the AV forums in a few days.....

Kweassa,

If you don't mind, I'll post the data at netaces after you post it on the boards.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 19, 2005, 09:14:22 AM

Quote

If you don't mind, I'll post the data at netaces after you post it on the boards.

 I don't mind at all. :)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Charon on July 19, 2005, 09:45:43 AM

I read an anecdotal account a few years ago in one of the "Aces" books that described a turning fight with a 190 (assumed A series). In general, the two pilots got locked into a flat turn situation (from alt) and stayed even with each other through the fight (eating up alt during the process) until one decided to break. From the description the turning lasted for some time since both planes were hesitant to be the first to break.

Charon

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: SirLoin on July 19, 2005, 10:05:48 AM

Appreciate the stats Kweassa...Maybe a A8 with %50 is closer to a dora w 75%.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 20, 2005, 02:34:51 AM

The Results are Out:

Quote

Type (SL angle used)
- time to complete under normal setting (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under one notch of flap (average turn speed), radius
- time to complete under full flap (average turn speed), radius

 ....


Fw190A-5 (1.0/1.5)
- 21 seconds (180mph), 269.0m
- 21 seconds (162mph), 242.1m
- N/A

Fw190A-8 (1.0/1.5)
4xMG151/20
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 21 seconds (171mph), 255.6m
- N/A
2xMG151/20, 2xMK108
- 23 seconds (181mph), 296.3m
- 23 seconds (172mph), 281.6m
- N/A


Fw190D-9 (1.0/1.5)
- 22 seconds (181mph), 283.4m
- 21 seconds (172mph), 257.1m
- N/A


Fw190F-8 (1.0/1.5)
- 23 seconds (179mph), 293.0m
- 22 seconds (171mph), 267.8m
- N/A


P-47D-11 (0.05)
- 23 seconds (153mph), 250.5m
- 23 seconds (136mph), 222.6m
- 22 seconds (120mph), 187.9m


P-47D-25 (0.05)
- 23 seconds (157mph), 257.0m
- 23 seconds (143mph), 234.1m
- 23 seconds (120mph), 196.4m


P-47D-40 (0.05)
- 24 seconds (159mph), 271.6m
- 22 seconds (151mph), 236.4m
- 23 seconds (124mph), 203.0m


 ...



(Planes in between the stats are also listed for comparison)

In order of tightest turn radius with flaps up

P-47D-11: 250.5m
Me163B: 254.1m
P-47D-25: 257.0m
P-51D: 258.6m
Ta152H-1: 261.9m
Fw190A-5: 269.0m
P-38J: 269.0m
P-47D-40: 271.6m
P-38L: 275.0m
Fw190D-9: 283.4m
Fw190F-8: 293.0m
Fw190A-8: 296.3m
Fw190A-8(30mm): 296.3m

In order of tightest turn radius with one notch of flaps
(planes marked with * cannot use one notch flap)

Bf109G-10: 220.4m
P-47D-11: 222.6m
P-38G: 223.5m
P-51D: 224.2m
Bf109G-10(30mm): 225.8m
P-38L: 228.5m
P-38J: 229.9m
P-47D-25: 234.1m
P-47D-40: 236.4m
*Typhoon Mk.Ib: 232.0m
Me163B: 237.1m
Fw190A-5: 242.1m
Ta152H-1: 246.2m
Fw190A-8: 255.6m
Fw190D-9: 257.1m
Fw190F-8: 267.8m
Fw190A-8(30mm): 281.6m

In order of tightest turn radius with full flaps
(planes marked with * cannot use full flap)

Bf109G-6(30mm): 175.5m
Ki-61-I-Tei: 177.1m
Bf109G-2: 179.0m
P-47D-11: 187.9m
P-51D: 189.4m
Bf109G-10: 192.0m
P-51B: 193.1m
C.205: 193.6m
P-47D-25: 196.4m
Bf109G-10(30mm): 201.5m
P-47D-40: 203.0m
*Tempest Mk.V: 215.2m
*Typhoon Mk.Ib: 232.0m
*Me163B: 237.1m
*Fw190A-5: 242.1m
*Ta152H-1: 246.2m
*Fw190A-8: 255.6m
*Fw190D-9: 257.1m
*Fw190F-8: 267.8m
*Fw190A-8(30mm): 281.6m

 Check out for  more turn radius figures at The AH2 Compendium of Fighter Turn Performance  (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155592)

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Skydancer on July 20, 2005, 04:43:51 AM

Sometimes I wish Hitech would jump in and partake in this debate. It might help clear up a few things like if there realy is a slight bias towards American planes or not!

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: moot on July 20, 2005, 05:59:28 AM

Kweassa, wouldn't it make more sense to have all fighters carrying an equal amount of fuel in volume rather than %age?

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Urchin on July 20, 2005, 07:30:54 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Skydancer
Sometimes I wish Hitech would jump in and partake in this debate. It might help clear up a few things like if there realy is a slight bias towards American planes or not!

That is such a stupid request that I can't believe you even posted it.  

Hitech - "Why yes, after years and years of making games, I've finally decided to come clean and admit that there really is a bias towards the American planes in every game I've done, especially AH."  

Uh huh.  

The game isn't biased.  It is modelled as accurately as can be modelled.  In some cases, even the "favored" American planes catch the short end of the stick when HTC decides how to model them.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Kweassa on July 20, 2005, 09:20:18 AM

Quote

Kweassa, wouldn't it make more sense to have all fighters carrying an equal amount of fuel in volume rather than %age?

 Testing more than 50 planes, and setting all their fuel loads to a set point by fiddling with the fuel multiplier.. is an absurdly time consuming task... and it still would not be something more objective than the way I've tested it.

 For instance:

* X plane carries 100 liters of fuel at 100% load
* Y plane carries 500 liters of fuel at 100% load

 At which point do we set the volume of the fuel, that can be considered "fair" for both planes?

 How about 80 liters?

 In that case, for plane X that is only 20% of fuel burned, flying on 80% of total fuel load.

 However, for plane Y, that's 84% of fuel burned - flying only on 16% fuel.

 So here we compare a plane with almost full fuel tanks, with a plane with almost empty fuel tanks.

 I would hardly call that 'objective'. IMO setting a percentage of internal fuel, is makes more sense.

Title: P-47D vs Fw-190A (for those who play Il-2 or WB)
Post by: Overlag on July 20, 2005, 02:37:20 PM

and to be fair the testing is fair.

i mean a P51/47 engauging a 190/109 over germany will have like 70% fuel.... IE much heavier than the 190s/109s that its engauging.