Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: g00b on July 16, 2005, 12:11:19 PM
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Just curious why I continually see people recommending Glocks? My local range has about 50 handguns to rent and I have tried almost all of them. The Glocks are consistently some of the least accurate and have horrible action. Is it just because they are used alot and probably don't get the TLC they need? They seem sloppy and cheap. On the other hand, the other guns probably get the same amount of attention and seem to work fine.
Normally I can shoot sub 2 inch groups at 7 meters with my Ruger MKII with 6 7/8" slab bull barrel.
(http://www.collectivecomputing.com/~gabe/images/PICT3935.jpg)
Amazingly my IZH-46M olympic target air pistol is even more accurate, and I can tag paintballs at 20 yrds fairly consistently.
http://www.collectivecomputing.com/~gabe/images/IZH46M.wmv
So I don't think it's a lack of practice or skill. I just don't understand the attraction to the Glocks?
g00b
P.S. Anyone know of any accuracy enhancing mods for the MKII?
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Originally posted by g00b
I just don't understand the attraction to the Glocks?
Me either. I like a weapon to not be butt ugly on top of a good shooter.
dago
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They are just a Fad gun. Take a look back and you can easily pick out the Fad guns, even though they might not be the best.
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then just dont buy them
i used to have one and it was just fine for me, but then guns are not one of my interest... i just point and shoot. no drooling or fiddeling.
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The last time I shot a glock 19, I had a 1.5" group at 7 yards. I was able to get closer to 1.25" with the Sig. With a match colt .45 I can get less than 1" groups.
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Don't expect a rental gun to be incredibly accurate. It's a standard model that probably has recieved some bad treatment.
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from what my friend (a police auxillary) says... they are reliable, easy, and somewhat idiot-proof.
basically a point and click gun, that is perfunctionary. nothing great, just really really easy to use.
at least that's his opinion
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I've heard (and experienced) just the opposite though.
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Ok... they are accurate enough... most people can't shoot that well anyhow... they are cheap and they reliable and sorta foolproof... they are high capacity and fairly light and easy to dissesemble and clean. They are an all bussines kind of handgun for guys like nielsen who don't particularly care for handguns.
I don't own one. Don't see any need for em for me but..... they perform better (in most categories) than some of the guns that I do own and enjoy.
Sorta like cars and motorcycles... there is more to it than just utility and hitting most of the performanc marks.
A person would not be badly served if they bought one... they wouldn't have much to complain about.... not much to care about either.... like I said... perfect gun for someone like nielsen or someone who used it for backup for a long gun.
They are hard to get atached to.
lazs
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Thats why you just buy an UZI for self defense.
accuracy not that important. one of the 100rnds you squirt off in that second gotta hit. ;)
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I dont mind guns lazs.. sorry if you got that idea.
I dont care for them either way acutally.
I had one as a sidearm throughout OC school and when i served in the navy. Had it a few years after i left too when i was in the reserves. Shot it alot and wore it loaded most of the time when i was on watch. Ligth gun but still annoying to carry around in tight spaces.. it bumps into everything when on your belt.
Never failed me except when shooting blanks.. it jammed alot then. We found out that it was due to wrong kind of blanks made for the MP5.
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Handguns are a personal opinion type of critter. You find a brand or model you like and enjoy it. Some folks think Glocks are the scourge of the earth and others like them quite a bit. I'm one of the ones that like them and have 4 at this time. On the other hand also have several of other brands to include Colt, S&W and Ruger. As long as it works reliably, hits where you are aiming and is of sufficeint caliber to get the job done use it.
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Glocks are the scourge of the earth
I wasn't going to be the first one to say it. :aok
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7 meters? Why not just put your gun against the paper? You can spit on the target in 1" groups at that range.
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putting aside the boxy shape, plastic feel, and generally butt-ugly appearance- and thats a lot to put aside- the main thing to me is that the angle of the grip to the barrel is just wrong.
ya, I know. I remember when they came out and they made all the claims of ergonomically superior, more natural grip, blah blah. maybe it's even true, maybe it is a better way to go, it's still wrong.
at close distances (the kind where you'd use a pistol) you should be able to pick a pistol up, point it at what you want to hit and have the bullet end up reasonable close to where you intended, without aiming.
pick up one of those dummy rounds with the laser in them (intended for bore-sighting I'd imagine) and try it out. a dart board from across your living room works well. I've only had the rounds for 9mm and .45LC and have tried it with a S&W 6906, Ruger Vaquero, browning hi-power, and a glock maybe a dozen or so tries with each gun.
except for the glock all where solidly within the triple ring on the dart board, most within 3 inches of center, the glock was off the board for the first 2 or three times, better on the last few but still crap.
it's fine for accurate when you take the time to aim carefully, but it never feels natural or a fluid action to aim and fire one. I have better groups with most other guns but not a huge difference.
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that I fired a lot of rounds through a lot of different guns before I ever touched a glock, it's different from what I'm used to so it's wrong.
most of the people I know who like the glocks started using them when they were fairly new to shooting pistols. I have even met a few guys who would call it their preferred gun, all three of them had a glock as their first pistol, and learned to shoot on it.
I'd imagine those guys get the same feel from a 'regular gun' that I get when I pick one of those ugly 9's that look like it was made by Mattel.
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Originally posted by Martlet
7 meters? Why not just put your gun against the paper? You can spit on the target in 1" groups at that range.
lol true
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i dont care for glocks my self..but!! if i was in the army or police..i would carry one...just because of the articals and the things my buddy put his threw...read this artical..its one of the tons of them i have read about its dependablity
what were originally attributed as weaknesses in Glock pistols are now known to
be strengths. The simple, rugged design of the Glock, including the plastic frame, enabled Glock
pistols to survive the most brutal tests against both the elements and normal wear. Several noted
gunwriters have put over 250,000 rounds through their personal Glocks, with one Glock over
1.1 million rounds, and another over 300,000 +P rounds with no structural failures. Glocks have
successfully fired when full of water, mud, and sand. Glocks have been frozen in ice, chipped
out, and fired. Glocks have been dropped from 50 feet with a chambered round and not fired.
1.1 million rounds,,,thats freakin amazing in my book..lol..let alone 300,000..wow...like i said i dont care for glocks...but its kinda like a car..one car is for work..one car is for play and too look good..if you had to use your pistol all the time..i would take the glock to abuse...but to show off at the gun range..i would take one of my other guns..lol
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I hate the grip in general, the finger grooves in particular and also the trigger safety on the glocks. I am not a good shot by any means, but glocks make it even worse. :)
Other than that, I have noting against them.
I will be buying a Sig P226 and/or Beretta 96 Brigadier INOX sometime in the next year - I like those better.
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clicky (http://lavender.fortunecity.com/mitchum/513/Sounds/deathwish5.ra)
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On a lark, I took a shot at a 5 gallon jerry can with my Glock19 at a range of 75 yards.
I hit it.
I fired 4 more rounds and hit it 3 more times.
My Glock19 is a superior pistol for a automatic.
Although I do not recomend Glocks to anyone. That way I figure only the best and most intelligent folks will buy them of their own freewill. I do not want to direct any idiots towards buying them. They are not good guns for idiots.
Revolvers are good guns for idiots.
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Also remember that not one gun is exactly the same. People who started with a certain brand or have gotten used to it automatically compensate for how far it is off in whatever direction. If someone who is used to brand A picks up a brand B for the first time and just pops a round off, usually they won't hit where they want to. Give a gun in good condition a little practice time and I bet you'll come to like it.
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Originally posted by g00b
Just curious why I continually see people recommending Glocks?
It`s a Tupac thing.
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Martlet, 7 meters is the standard competition pistol target shooting distance. I doubt you could spit or shoot 1 inch groups at that distance, very few can.
g00b
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Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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I own a lot of different guns.. revolvers and semi autos.. no plastic ones tho yet. I don't really like em and there is no real point for me..
I allready have good 45's so why get another one in plastic?
I allready have revolvers in 44 mag and .357 and they don't make glocks in those calibers anyway.
I allready have more concealable and powerful guns. I don't like GAP round or the .40 or the nine.
I know the glock is dependable but... so is my Kimber and the Kimber is more accurate and points better and has a better feel... I am coming on 10,000 rounds and it shows no wear.
My 44's have 50,000 rounds through a few of em... can you imagine what a glock that was made to handle 50,000 rounds of 44 mag would look like?
my hands are big... I like to get grips that fit me. Glocks don't and there is nothing that can be done about it.
I am old fashioned... I like a gun or a car or a tool that has the combination of feel and pride of ownership and interest that works for me... melted plastic looking cars and black plastic guns work good but they are just not for me.
lazs
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what were originally attributed as weaknesses in Glock pistols are now known to
be strengths. The simple, rugged design of the Glock, including the plastic frame, enabled Glock
pistols to survive the most brutal tests against both the elements and normal wear. Several noted
gunwriters have put over 250,000 rounds through their personal Glocks, with one Glock over
1.1 million rounds, and another over 300,000 +P rounds with no structural failures. Glocks have
successfully fired when full of water, mud, and sand. Glocks have been frozen in ice, chipped
out, and fired. Glocks have been dropped from 50 feet with a chambered round and not fired.
See, I have experienced Glocks that were the biggest POS's. One time I even had one fire off without me pulling the trigger. It was scary as **** and just lucky the gun was pointed at the ground.
But I have an inherant distrust of any pistol I can't see the hammer. They are just not safe in my opinion.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
See, I have experienced Glocks that were the biggest POS's. One time I even had one fire off without me pulling the trigger. It was scary as **** and just lucky the gun was pointed at the ground.
But I have an inherant distrust of any pistol I can't see the hammer. They are just not safe in my opinion.
It's impossible to fire a Glock without pulling the trigger.
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Martlet,
You may know that from being familiar with the mechanism but laser has his mind made up and cannot possibly be wrong. To admit he was wrong there would be to admit he had his finger on the trigger when he shouldna oughta. Either that or he had a hangfire (which is an ammo fault) and didn't follow proper range procedures when it occurred. He's happy with his choices and those who like Glock are happy with theirs. Pistols are a personal choice and no one will llike them all, nor will all of them be suited to everyone.
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i owned a glock 26 (9mm) for a short period of time and got rid of it.. the shots were inconsistent and the action wae choppy. I rate them on the crap scale as top of the line crap. When talking compact semi-auto, I found that the Springfield XD series are one of the best.. accuracy and price wise, check em out.
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Originally posted by g00b
Martlet, 7 meters is the standard competition pistol target shooting distance. I doubt you could spit or shoot 1 inch groups at that distance, very few can.
g00b
I'd bet Martlet can. I can, it took me 7 years at 10 yards. You don't do this overnight, regardless how EXPENSIVE the firearm. You could go out and buy a Wilson Combat or Les Baer and the results would be the same from a Glock. I shoot a USP 45. My shooting buddy has a Glock23 and shoots the bullseyes' out of every target he gets at the range. BTW, I have NO PROBLEM shooting a 1" group from his Glock 23. He's been shooting for 20+ years. He's the best shot I have come across.
It's NOT the gun, it's the person shooting it.
GRUN, watch for stovepipes from the Berettas.
Karaya
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I have been thinking about it a bit, and considering that I'm a nvice I think the best weay for me might be to get a CPO (certified pre owned) SigP226 in 9mm for about $500 and use the savings to buy a boat load of ammo to practice.
What u guys think of that?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
It's NOT the gun, it's the person shooting it.
Karaya
I agree, unless there is something wrong with the gun.
That being said, some pistols just aren't as accurate as others, particularly when you throw shooting style into the mix.
I rarely shoot closer than 25yds. It's just what I trained at. I guess 30 years ago when I first started shooting my father figured if I was comfortable shooting farther out, in close would be a snap. Turns out he was right.
Except, of course, with my new Sigma. The trigger on that is so unlike anything I'm used to I'm happy to keep them in the 8 ring at that distance. Every time I shoot it, though, the group gets tighter.
Like you said, however, it's me, not the gun. If you buy a new pistol and after 100 rounds decide its inaccurate, it's because you didn't give it a chance.
Nothing groups for me like my P220, though.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I have been thinking about it a bit, and considering that I'm a nvice I think the best weay for me might be to get a CPO (certified pre owned) SigP226 in 9mm for about $500 and use the savings to buy a boat load of ammo to practice.
What u guys think of that?
That's a great gun. As I said above, put a butt load of rounds through it.
Edit: As an aside, if you aren't reloading, I picked up a box of Brown Bear 9mm hollow point for 5.99 to try it out. It was a little smoky, but seemed to be good range ammo. Granted, I only got a box but I'll be grabbing more next time I'm in.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I agree, unless there is something wrong with the gun.
That being said, some pistols just aren't as accurate as others, particularly when you throw shooting style into the mix.
I rarely shoot closer than 25yds. It's just what I trained at. I guess 30 years ago when I first started shooting my father figured if I was comfortable shooting farther out, in close would be a snap. Turns out he was right.
Except, of course, with my new Sigma. The trigger on that is so unlike anything I'm used to I'm happy to keep them in the 8 ring at that distance. Every time I shoot it, though, the group gets tighter.
Like you said, however, it's me, not the gun. If you buy a new pistol and after 100 rounds decide its inaccurate, it's because you didn't give it a chance.
Nothing groups for me like my P220, though.
Exactly Martlet, and no offense here, but I believe you knew what I was driving at.
I might be out your way visiting a squaddie in 2 years. We'll have to go shooting. I grew up in a family of non-guns & knives.
My shooting buddy has a Hi-cap P226 and it is good to shoot. I've never fired the P220. I might have to check this one out.
I love the .45 round. I target shoot with Winchester Target (white box Value packs from Wal-mart) and Home Defense is the CorBon .45 +P.
<>
Karaya
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Any time you're out here, let me know. I have a membership at one of the ranges outside Boston.
Lately, I've been shooting Wolf or Blazer .45 simply because of the price difference. It's dirtier, but I don't mind the cleaning. You have to clean it anyway.
Yesterday, I picked up some Brown Bear steel jacket hollow point for the range, just to try it because it was only 5.99 a box. It shot pretty well.
No walmarts, or anything for that matter, near me sell ammo. MA is a screwed up state. I buy all my supplies at Four Seasons in Woburn.
So I shoot what's cheap at the range, but use Winchester White or Mag-tech for carry.
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I'd bet Martlet can. I can, it took me 7 years at 10 yards. You don't do this overnight, regardless how EXPENSIVE the firearm. You could go out and buy a Wilson Combat or Les Baer and the results would be the same from a Glock. I shoot a USP 45. My shooting buddy has a Glock23 and shoots the bullseyes' out of every target he gets at the range. BTW, I have NO PROBLEM shooting a 1" group from his Glock 23. He's been shooting for 20+ years. He's the best shot I have come across.
It's NOT the gun, it's the person shooting it.
Karaya
Yeah right, which is why all the olympic match guns look all crazy, have weights and counterbalances and anti-vibration thingies all over 'em.
Take any person of any particular skill level, I guarentee they will shoot better with different guns.
Sure, people can learn, adjust and compensate for any guns particular quirks and deficencies over time. That time spent on a nicer gun would yield even better shots.
Case in point, I said I could hit .50 caliber paintballs at 20 yrds with my olympic match airpistol. That's freestanding, open sights, and about 50% of the time. The first time I tried it was a complete joke, I was shocked I actually hit it. I then managed to repeat it several times, in front of friends even. I have since termed that gun the "magic gun" because it allows me to pull shots I would never be able to make with anything else. I have never shot any other pistol that I could even come close to that level of performance, nor have I ever seen anyone else claim a similar level of performance from any non match-grade pistol.
Where do you think the terms "match grade" or "competition model" come from anyways? Just fabrications because the gun don't matter? We're just throwing our money away on these types of guns?
So far the general concencus seems to be glocks are pretty much at the bottom of the list for connoisseurs of fine guns. At best they are serviceable "idiot proof" general use guns?
g00b
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Originally posted by g00b
Where do you think the terms "match grade" or "competition model" come from anyways? Just fabrications because the gun don't matter? We're just throwing our money away on these types of guns?
"Match Grade" and "competition model" means just that. It doesn't necessary mean better or worse, just "specific". Most firearms better serve one purpose than another. That's why there are so many different makes and models.
A "competition model" is better for competition. It's rifled, chambered, and ergonomically molded for target. It's garbage for most other uses. To take it a step further, even competition models differ from each other, depending on the competition. That doesn't make them "better", just "more suited".
Match Grade is also specific. Match grade ammunition has a more consistent median weight. That way you get a similar path which each shot. The pressure and velocity curve remains fairly constant.
A match grade barrel matches the rifling to the ammo weight and target distance. Again, not necessarily better, just specific.
Match grade triggers are lighter and crisp so they engage the sear quicker and consistently. Most match grade triggers are garbage for anything but matches.
So match grade firearms are of excellent quality, but so are many firearms that aren't match grade. A match grade firearm isn't much good without attention to detail.
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Originally posted by g00b
Yeah right, which is why all the olympic match guns look all crazy, have weights and counterbalances and anti-vibration thingies all over 'em.
Take any person of any particular skill level, I guarentee they will shoot better with different guns.
Sure, people can learn, adjust and compensate for any guns particular quirks and deficencies over time. That time spent on a nicer gun would yield even better shots.
Case in point, I said I could hit .50 caliber paintballs at 20 yrds with my olympic match airpistol. That's freestanding, open sights, and about 50% of the time. The first time I tried it was a complete joke, I was shocked I actually hit it. I then managed to repeat it several times, in front of friends even. I have since termed that gun the "magic gun" because it allows me to pull shots I would never be able to make with anything else. I have never shot any other pistol that I could even come close to that level of performance, nor have I ever seen anyone else claim a similar level of performance from any non match-grade pistol.
Where do you think the terms "match grade" or "competition model" come from anyways? Just fabrications because the gun don't matter? We're just throwing our money away on these types of guns?
So far the general concencus seems to be glocks are pretty much at the bottom of the list for connoisseurs of fine guns. At best they are serviceable "idiot proof" general use guns?
g00b
Match grade guns are no better in the hands of a Novice shooter than a "Inferior Glock" of a novice Shooter. If you think otherwise, you have some issues.
Karaya
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Geez, you guys are really trolling.
I specifically responded to:
I'd bet Martlet can. I can, it took me 7 years at 10 yards. You don't do this overnight, regardless how EXPENSIVE the firearm. You could go out and buy a Wilson Combat or Les Baer and the results would be the same from a Glock. I shoot a USP 45. My shooting buddy has a Glock23 and shoots the bullseyes' out of every target he gets at the range. BTW, I have NO PROBLEM shooting a 1" group from his Glock 23. He's been shooting for 20+ years. He's the best shot I have come across.
Karaya
Which was about accuracy, not power, or useability or anything else. And yes I do believe that even a relative newbie can still benefit from a superior quality gun. I have issues for believing this? Get a grip, go outside and take some deep breaths. I can have my opinions and you can have yours, deal with it.
g00b
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Glocks are quite simply the best semi autos available. But, they are not for just anyone....you need to be evolved enough in your understanding of what quality is to be able to appreciate them.
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Glocks are okay. Like Mav said, its a personal preference thing. I don't particularly care for them.
Don't use reloads in them:
http://glockmeister.com/failure.shtml
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Originally posted by g00b
Just curious why I continually see people recommending Glocks? My local range has about 50 handguns to rent and I have tried almost all of them. The Glocks are consistently some of the least accurate and have horrible action. Is it just because they are used alot and probably don't get the TLC they need?
g00b
My personal thought is that it has something to do with the weight distrubution. Call me crazy, but after shooting a Colt 1911 50% of the time and renting other guns, I just feel like the Glocks are top heavy and therefore not as stable. My wife!!!! likes shooting the 1911 b/c it's heavy and doesn't "wobble" as much in her words.
My 2 cents.....
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Originally posted by g00b
Geez, you guys are really trolling.
I specifically responded to:
Which was about accuracy, not power, or useability or anything else. And yes I do believe that even a relative newbie can still benefit from a superior quality gun. I have issues for believing this? Get a grip, go outside and take some deep breaths. I can have my opinions and you can have yours, deal with it.
g00b
I'm fine. I love shooting my "inferior" Polymer framed HK USP .45. I'll match it up with a Kimber. Again, it's the person, not the gun.
Karaya
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I have been thinking about it a bit, and considering that I'm a nvice I think the best weay for me might be to get a CPO (certified pre owned) SigP226 in 9mm for about $500 and use the savings to buy a boat load of ammo to practice.
What u guys think of that?
Nothing wrong with a CPO. SigP226 is really fine, well made, and reliable but I don't like the 9mm round very much. I saw a guy with two 9mm rounds in the torso get back into his car and drive away. He eventually crashed through a plate glass window in a furniture store, but lived to file a lawsuit against police.
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A compact Glock... a 19, for example... makes a fine carry peice, IMO. Lightweight and reliable.
I worked at a range as a pistol instructor throughout college and we had a 19 and a 17 that both went through roughly 500,000 rounds with no major failures or trips back to the factory for repairs.
Aside from springs, we replaced the barrel on the 19 due to wear - thats it.
They dont point as well as a 1911, the first shot trigger pull is horrible and its ugly as sin...
BUT... if you want the damn thing to go off without failure and hit what youre aiming at - its tough to do better, IMO.
I used to be a Glock hater too... a 1911 guy who shrugged off plastic guns... raving about Glock... whodathunkit?
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The Glock is the first 'new' handgun design in many years with some good ideas and benefits. The quality of Glock's is very good as well. Most automatics other than Glocks are Browning designs or 'knock offs' of Browning designs. That is a real tribute to John Browning's genius, but not too innovative.
The combination of modern materials (plastics) which absorb some of the recoil energy combined with the spring loaded firing ping and pin blocking safety make for a highly effective and safe handgun. I have had no problems keeping a magazine of rounds inside a 3" diameter circle at 50 feet. A specialized load would probably enhance a Glock's accuracy if that's your goal. I would not consider Glock's exceptionally accurate but they are exceptionally reliable, safe, and easy to maintain.
For accuracy enhancements to the Ruger MKII, check out Brownell's parts and Volquartsen accessories. The Ruger .22 pistol is another very successful design which was not a direct Browning knock off.
Regards,
Malta
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I find the Glock19 almost a perfect fit for my hands. I do use a rubber boot slip-on over the handgrip with finger grooves. This makes the Glock19 an exceptional fit for my hands. I also find the accuracy of my Glock19 to be exceptional to any other standard Semi auto I have ever fired.
My only gripe with the Glock is the fact that the weight difference between being fully loaded and empty is noticable and the last few rounds tend to bite the shooting hand with detonation shock due to the lack of mass after the last 15 rounds have left the gun.
Other than that, shes a sweet pistol.
I do agree that the 9mm is a weak round overall compared to the heavier faster loads available. To me this is a trade off that I am willing to make so long as I can generally place a minimum of 3 rounds into the torso or at least one into the skill cavity of whoever deserves it. I feel the 9mm rounds I use (Black Talon 147 grain) will generally stop even an obnoxious person/animal intent on killing me or my dogs.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Deleted.
5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
How do you get deleted for flamebaiting in a thread like this? Wish I coulda seen what you wrote
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My Glock M30 works for me.
It hits what I point it at, and has'nt had a failure yet.
It's really great as I am left handed ,it's a pain to have to reach for the safety on a hand gun that has one.
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the police instructors I talk to all say the same thing about glocks... "they are good enough for these guys (meaning the rookies they train)"
What they mean is that they work well and are accurate enough and bumble proof enough. Most of the instructors all have guns that they take a little more pride in tho.
oh flit.. have you seen the new add on safety for glocks? it is right hand only now. They are thinking of requireing it in some forces because of accidents and gun grabs by bad guys... somebody did a study after the court shooting lately that said that revolvers and no safety semi autos can be shot in 1.,7 secs by the bad guy but safety autos take like 17 sec. My thought is that the no safety is the best part of the glock and the idea is to not let em have your gun in the first place but..
lazs
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Originally posted by ASTAC
How do you get deleted for flamebaiting in a thread like this? Wish I coulda seen what you wrote
Me too. My guess is an over-eager mod, or I didn't express myself well. The conversation has progressed so far past it, it's irrelevant now.