Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Wilbus on July 16, 2005, 01:04:53 PM
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So when we getting B and C? :D
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its obvious my dear watson
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Hopefully? Never!
The Ki84 we have in AH2 now outflies nearly every plane in the set. Some planes it is nearly par with, other planes it has weaknesses with but great strengths over, as well. (that is, it might not out-run some planes, but makes up for it by out turning and out climbing them).
It takes a lot to beat one, and it has far better guns than the zero and most 109s. 3-5 kill sorties are not impossible.
Everybody else that wants 4x20mm (in this or in the spitV) just wants an easy mode plane.
What I'd like to see is 2x 13mm and 2x 30mm, but alas no such armament was used historically.
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Some planes it is nearly par with, other planes it has weaknesses with but great strengths over, as well. (that is, it might not out-run some planes, but makes up for it by out turning and out climbing them).
Just like the P38 yet there are 3 of those :)
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Just hope we get Ki-44-II.
-fastest ROC plane in Japanese Army AF
-Stucture is way better than Ki-84 and wont break like ki-84 when diving @ 450mph.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Just like the P38 yet there are 3 of those :)
Unlike the P-38 Ki-84 saw action in last years of the Pacific war and was tooooo late for the JAAF to regain air superiority.
P-38 saw action in 1942 and served on ALL fronts.
Evolution of P-38s (using AH2 planeset)
1942-1943: P-38G
1943-1944: P-38J
1944-1945: P-38L
:)
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P38's suk compared to them wilbus especialy the G.
:aok
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Wilbus,
The C never saw action and less than 10 were built, maybe less than 5. It should not be added unless HTC decides to delve into "whatif" scenarios. If the atomic bomb hadn't ended the war it would have been built and used in numbers.
The B I think should be added as a cheap perk plane. There were about 500 B models built. The same should be done with the three gun La-7.
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hehe ki84 , now that was the biggest white elephant in history
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Well the B then :)
ANd I know you're lying Bug :)
Thanks for info Karnak, I had not seen any numbers before.
Unlike the P-38 Ki-84 saw action in last years of the Pacific war and was tooooo late for the JAAF to regain air superiority.
So what?
The Ki 84 in AH is only dangerous when someone who has flown it somewhat much or someone who is an experienced pilot. Very few people fly it, not because it's bad but because it is difficult to use to its fullest advantage. It can't dive (brakes up above 450mph), poor high speed (400mph+) controlls, elevator atleast.
At 180mph and above Even P47's, P51 and P38's will be able to turn with it thanks to combat flaps. Only at 160mph will it deploy its flaps and outurn them (granted quite quickly).
It's a great plane, possibly the best all arounder in AH. But there is a reason so few people fly it.
Give us the B I say! :)
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38 flew in last part of pacific war. My sisters neighbor flew one in Phillipines during last part of war. 51 missions. Saw no E/A unfortunately. Coffee he's called. Lot of strafing missions.
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I like the Ki-84 we have in AH a lot. On the rare times I fly now it is always my choice for a fighter.
Don't use combat trim and the elevators are a lot better. Getting over 500mph is iffy, but it certainly doesn't shed parts like the Mosquito does, so maybe I am more forgiving.
I was disappointing in it when it was introduced as it was slow, couldn't roll for crap and I didn't know about the combat trim killing it's elevator authority. Once the flight model was revised it changed everyting for me. It now matches the lower end of my predicted speeds, rolls better than I expected and I had learned about the nasty bad things that combat trim does to it. It is one of the best fighters in AH.
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Originally posted by agent 009
38 flew in last part of pacific war. My sisters neighbor flew one in Phillipines during last part of war. 51 missions. Saw no E/A unfortunately. Coffee he's called. Lot of strafing missions.
not really they showed up as early 42
but as photographic plane.
They shot down the most japanese planes for the USAAf.
The pacific war also started some later as the european war.
after 41
I was lucky Wilbuz ur one of the best shots i know, S!
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Heya Karnak. I've completely fallen in love with the Ki84. However, I have never reached 500mph in it without shredding parts. Most of all I have never gotten it out of a 470-480mph dive without losing both elevators. First 10 sorties or so I flew it after I got back from my leave from AH I lost the elevators several times when trimming it out of dive. Now I rarely go above 450mph. Not needed, it's best at slow speeds, there it beats anything.
Guns are crappy IMO though compared to other 20mm. What I easily kill with a snapshot in the 205 often requires two passes in a Ki84, not to mention hispano equiped birds.
That's part of the reason I'd like to see the B version either as a cheap perk or as a very low ENY plane such as ENY 5 or even less.
Bug, you're one of the best 38 drivers out there and got me fair and square and surprised the hell out of me when ya flipped it up there and shot my wing off :D
Pleasure killing and getting killed by you !
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please bring the b...please please please please ;)
i couldnt imagine the c with 2x20mm and 2x30mm whoa!! that bit much...
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I welcome Ki-84-1-b to AH but first...
Requirements
-How many KI-84-1-B variants were built?
-Did it served the I.J.A.A.F. in numbers?
-------------------------------------------------------
Notes:
* Ki-84-Ic did not served the IJAAF in NUMBERS
* 500 were Ki-84-I-b (four 20mm)
* Therefore Ki-84-Ib should be a perk plane.
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btw HTC throw some bones for us pleeeeeeese :)
Ki-84-I-B is the same as Ki-84-1-A but pry open the cowl, remove mguns, and install 2x 20mm cannons:)
Now that's eaasy upgrade! :)
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ahem add Homare 21 engine for Ki-84-I-b
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please add 20mm*4 loadout to the Ki-84-Ia in next patch! :D
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Originally posted by 1K3
ahem add Homare 21 engine for Ki-84-I-b
Sooo... you want a UFO of a Ki84 that has the firepower of the N1K2, and the speed range of 400+mph...???
WHY BOTHER!?!?! There would be no equal to it in the game.
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Agreed bring both, B & C
AH has only little to do with a sim, almost
everybody want best material. There is
no reason why B &C is not available.
Perk it, do what you want but bring 'em
in AH. All those furballers will love them.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Sooo... you want a UFO of a Ki84 that has the firepower of the N1K2, and the speed range of 400+mph...???
WHY BOTHER!?!?! There would be no equal to it in the game.
Thats why it will be perked;)
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1K3 and Krusty,
The Ki-84 in AH already has the Homare 45-21. That is why it does 344mph on the deck.
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(mitsu or anyone who knows more info about Ki-84)
Does Ki-84-I-b climb/speed/range/ect and with 2000hp Ha-45-21 data still exist?
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give us a ki 100 (ki 61 with better engine)
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Ki84's won't do 400mph+ unless they are modelled with US High octane fuel, which I hope they never will be.
Believe we have the biggest engine already. Big enough for such a light airframe.
Bring the B!
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Originally posted by Karnak
1K3 and Krusty,
The Ki-84 in AH already has the Homare 45-21. That is why it does 344mph on the deck.
I recall our HA-45-21 uses 87 octane fuel, not 92 right?
btw is 87 and 92 octane fuel the best the Japanese AAF hadv?
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It'd be generous to call their late war crap 87 octane.
It was probably about 80 to 84 octane due to the crap they were forces to add to it.
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A Captured Ki84 was brought up to over 420 (430?) mph in the US on US fuel. It had been put to very good condition before though.
It is interesting because it shows what the plane was really capable off with the "right stuff".
I still can't help being amazed by it's power to weight ratio of 0.75.
1990hp engine in an (empty) 2660kg airframe is just insane for a WW2 plane IMO.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
A Captured Ki84 was brought up to over 420 (430?) mph in the US on US fuel. It had been put to very good condition before though.
It is interesting because it shows what the plane was really capable off with the "right stuff".
I still can't help being amazed by it's power to weight ratio of 0.75.
1990hp engine in an (empty) 2660kg airframe is just insane for a WW2 plane IMO.
If I recall correctly, it out paced the P-51D and P-47N up to 20,000ft after which they were faster.
A bit more refinement and with US fuel and it would have been a monster. As it stands it is merely very good.
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Correct Karnak unless this (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html) page is lying. Scroll down to just bellow middle of the page, last section just before "Specification of Nakajima Ki-84-1a:".
This is what it says:
In 1946, a captured late-production Hayate was restored and tested at the Middletown Air Depot in Pennsylvania. At a weight of 7490 pounds, the aircraft achieved a maximum speed of 427 mph at 20,000 feet, using war emergency power. This speed exceeded that of the P-51D Mustand and the P-47D at that altitude by 2 mph and 22 mph respectively. These figures were achieved with a superbly maintained and restored aircraft and with highly-refined aviation gasoline, and were not typical of Japanese-operated aircraft during the later stages of the war.
Definatly a top end machine had it been flown on good fuel and with proper maintanance!
Here (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/ki84performanceaj_1.htm) is an interesting link comparing the production Ki 84 (well, Production Ki 84 in theory, most of them were poorly built) with some US planes, very interesting link sugest you read it!
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Wilbus,
All this was argued over before the K-84 was introduced.
There are many variables. For instance in FB/AEP/PF the Ki-84 is modelled with at its best, even with water-methanol.
In AH they chose the low (safer) end. The old threads are there if you are interested in how they arrived at their conclusions. They are spread out between the the A & V forum and the General discusssion forum.
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Wotan? What are you on about? :)
Not sure you've read the discussion but only my last post.
I haven't said a thing about making the Ki84 better, just having a friendly discussion with people about adding the Ki84 1b.
The last post I made was to show Karnak two interesting links I found about it, nothing more, not in any way ment to lobby for an improved Ki84.
Please read the whole thread and nothing but the thread :)
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My referrence to the 'past discussions' has no bearing on making the Ki-84 in AH 'better'.
You mentioned:
A Captured Ki84 was brought up to over 420 (430?) mph in the US on US fuel.
The use of 100 octane fuel in that captured Ki-84 may have been used to simulate water/methanol.
Higher octane fuel detonates at a higher temp / pressure and should allow for a higher boost. But high Octane fuel run in an engine with a low compression ratio would not burn as clean and you would end up with a dirty intake and not much of a performance boost. Engine wear would be a problem as well because of the higher temp. Its not clear that simply putting US 100 octane gas in the Ki-84 tank would mean greater performance.
If the Ki-84 is without water/methanol then MAP limits for 87 octane will indeed mean a much slower plane then one with 100 octane or one with 87 + water / methanol. It wouldn't make sense that the US would have tested the Ki-84 with higher MAP settings then were used by the Japanese with 87 + water.
My point being is that the Ki-84 didn't necessarily need 'US fuel' to be a 'top performer'. Fuel is only one issue.
Below is a quote I provided from another forum (J-Aircraft Forum) in a past Ki-84 discussion on this A & V forum:
My argument is to eventually show that the American test claim of 427mph @ 20,000ft was quite naturally to be expected of a FRANK powered by the Homare Model 21 (and-it W-A-S a Model 21...), if the (older) figure of 388mph was derived from a prototype powered by Homare Model 11, and that it could have hardly done otherwise if the later model engine, in fact, did fully-attain its intended "design-to" power-level, especially @ higher altitudes.
Had the Americans captured some very early FRANK (especially-if powered by the (first) Model 11 engine...and, obviously, without the exhaust augmentation...), its "fame" would be nonexistent as we know it today; its max speed would hardly differ from that already quote in Rene Francillon's book:
“During the flight trials, the Ki-84 reach a speed a speed of 388 mph..."(pg.231)
I assert that the obvious difference in the two max speeds - merely shows the steady but intensive Nakajima effort at improving the "total" power plant output, by whatever means - more then the use of American avgas. (Although, ultimately, it may have needed to depend on the very high-octane gasoline-only the Americans had-to reach its "design-to" power-level, especially @ higher altitudes. Perhaps fortunate too was a "good" (production sample) engine that happened to be found in the FRANK example falling into Yankee hands...)
Anyway, here's a profile of how the two Homare models markedly different in their respective power levels @ all altitudes (AIREVIEW's General View of Japanese Military Aircraft in the Pacific War, Vol.1, pg.320):
Ha-45/11 NK9-B (IJN-nomenclature)
HP (T.O.): 1,800 @ 400mmHg & 2,900rpm
HP (2,000m/6,562-ft): 1,650 @ 250mmHg & same-rpm
HP (5,700m/18,701-ft): 1,460 @ 250mmHg & same-rpm
Ha-45/21 NK9-H (IJN-nomenclature)
HP (T.O.): 2,000 @ 500mmHg & 3,000rpm
HP (1,800m/5,901-ft): 1,860 @ 350mmHg & same-rpm
HP (6,400m/20,997-ft): 1,620 @ 350mmHg & same-rpm
Notes:
1- The Ha-45/21's more-oft quoted T.O.HP is: 1,990, in most other literature and the less often quoted (fully) 2,000Hp was more reserved for the "finally-arrived & matured" Ha-45/22, as the very next step, i.e., that the Model 21 was "almost" the Model 22.
2- Manifold Pressures (given in "inches") following the "boost” pressures (I translated the Japanese practice of merely quoting only the "boost” pressures (i.e., “gauge" pressures / above Standard Atmosphere (980mb), instead of the "total" pressure - that the Americans call: “Manifold Pressure"-which already includes the basic: 29.92-within their figures, become-translated:
Ha-45/11: (1st-speed): 400mm= 45.7" (2nd speed): 250mm= 39.8"
Ha-45/21: (1st-speed): 500mm= 49.6" (2nd-speed): 350mm= 43.7"
From this(and other sources...I also assert that the (earliest ) Homare (-11) engine can best be "profiled" as an:"1800/1400"engine, at best(meaning:
1,800Hp@S.L./1,400Hp@20,000-ft. (This is just my way of "stereotyping" these engines, for sake of illustration...)
Yet, Nakajima's goal was really "the mature Homare," as a fully arrived: "2000/1700"engine (meaning:2,000Hp@S.L./1,700 Hp@20,000-ft), and this power goal was to be "attained" by the Model 22. (Further power-improvements were also forthcoming, also w/more sub-models w/different blower-schedules, but I think "everyone" would just finally be happy when the "genuine" (and reliable...)"2000 / 1700" Homare, finally arrived...
Now, I do understand that these are (likely) “design to” goals, specified by contract as figures to-be-attained for a given production assignment, and not what really resulted in delivered products, to the field.
But anyway - so, what would (ideally) happen? Just what were the "simple" consequences of bringing your horsepower, up, from: 1,400 to-say...1,700? Well, if you did-388mph (on just 1,400Hp...), than by the simple cubic-root/law, you must now go-414mph! (In fact-you couldn't help it...)
So the next step remains: How do you finally get to: 427mph?
Simply by increase your "horsepower" to: 1,866. That's only just another 166Hp-would give that extra: 13-mph... So, where’s another way to get that extra boosting - without putting your engine in the garage?
That's all for now,
Robert
P.S. Tomorrow, I want talk about :
1- Exhaust Augmentation w/"actual"(likely) figures of: “pounds-of-thrust" including its real effect on speed...
2- Why power must still "drops / increasing altitude, even @ constant manifold pressure & rpm / delivery, and perhaps why high octane may be more efficacious here @ these higher altitudes, more than the lower-altitudes... (Although I think the two "engine" experts...we all know about...can explicate this better than I can...)
3- Further (more advanced) Homare models @ their (internal) dynamic specs...
4- What "may have happened" to the hapless Homare Model 22 engine in the original Reppu an (unexplained?) first class disaster for Nakajima (I was a propulsion-engineer / junior officer @ Wright Patterson AFB - and I know a "performance event / catastrophe" when I hear of one...)
Remember, I don't necessarily have the answers, but I want to bring attention to certain things, in certain ways...
Anyway my point was that you seem interested in the Ki-84 and I thought you may have an interest in the past discussions. I figured it be easier to point you in that direction then re-posting the above here once again.
I read the current discussion completely and can only wonder given your last reply:
What are you on about?
:p
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Thanks Wotan, very nice info!
As for my last reply, it seemed to me as if though you thought I was lobbying to have the Ki84 improved in AH2 and you answered to tell me that "been there done that there is nothing wrong with the Ki84..." sort of thing.
As I was aay from AH due to Studies when the Ki84 was added I haven't been able to keep up on the discussions about it, I've merley fallen in love with it since I got back.
But anyway - so, what would (ideally) happen? Just what were the "simple" consequences of bringing your horsepower, up, from: 1,400 to-say...1,700? Well, if you did-388mph (on just 1,400Hp...), than by the simple cubic-root/law, you must now go-414mph! (In fact-you couldn't help it...) So the next step remains: How do you finally get to: 427mph? Simply by increase your "horsepower" to: 1,866. That's only just another 166Hp-would give that extra: 13-mph... So, where’s another way to get that extra boosting - without putting your engine in the garage?
So what you are sayin is that, the max speed of 388mph was achieved with the HA 45/11 engine with far less HP then the 21 engine modelled in AH's Ki? If that is the case, then why does the Ki in AH not go faster? You said low octane fuel might be part of the issue but not the whole issue what would the other problems be? One would think HTC modell all planes in "good condition" so the engine in AH really should give a maximum of 1990Hp...
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So what you are sayin is that, the max speed of 388mph was achieved with the HA 45/11 engine with far less HP then the 21 engine modelled in AH's Ki? If that is the case, then why does the Ki in AH not go faster? You said low octane fuel might be part of the issue but not the whole issue what would the other problems be? One would think HTC modell all planes in "good condition" so the engine in AH really should give a maximum of 1990Hp...
Here's what Pyro said:
Top speed is 388, except for the fact that it's not making full power right now.
The WEP issue is a confusing one. Busa has been doing a lot of research for me over in Japan on the N1K and also the Ki-84. It's not very clear-cut as the engine had various restrictions placed upon it at various times and the IJA and IJN did not treat the engines the same. His research leaned toward the Ki-84 not making use of WEP while the N1K did, but again, it is not a clear-cut situation and is the source of much debate.
__________________
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
Busa posted:
The performance is as follows.
1820H.P. of takeoff power. (MP+350 RPM2900)
1670H.P/ 2400m of military power. (MP+250 RPM2900)
1500H.P./ 6550m of military power. (MP+250 RPM2900)
Seems to me the AH2 Ki-84 is mounted with Ha-45/11...
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Uhmmm OK....
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Are we talking about the armament of
the Ki84 or the engine :confused:
I thought B & C only have different and
stronger armament. Ki is fast enough
in the game.
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We're discussing armament :)
Wotan posted some more info for me though which I found very interesting.
Only difference between a, b and c was armament.
But there were different engines used within those versions.
Wotan just said he thinks our Ki uses the 45/11 engine while I've heard others say it uses the 45/21 engine. I don't know.
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I recall being told the -21, but I could be wrong.
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Rgr Karnak would be nice to know. The little info I have about it states the 21 was the most common.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Rgr Karnak would be nice to know. The little info I have about it states the 21 was the most common.
What I have read says the same thing.
But, using a fighter with a much clearer record, the Merlin 66 was by far the most common engine for the Spitfire Mk IX, and ours has the Merlin 61 which was the rarest and least powerful.
So....
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I went searching for old Ki-84 threads and Busa said ours is powered by NK9H-B (Ha-45-12) engine (a derated NK9H Ha-45-21)
The performance table of Homare is exhibited.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/amraam/ah/tmp/bbs002.zip
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Looks like the NK9H-B (Ha-45-12) engine for AH Ki-84 is temporary until Busa figures out RPM. WEP, M/P WEP, and Power WEP for NK9H (Ha-45-21) engine.
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here's an interesting note from busa
http://homepage2.nifty.com/amraam/ah/tmp/bbs002.txt
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So, sounds like Busa's saying "What we have is what there really was, even if it makes people angry and they gripe alot, it doesn't change what I've found on the matter".
It also sounds like he's saying our N1K2 is overpowered (or was? I don't know when he wrote that, maybe the N1K2 was changed since then).
What I don't get is why we get WEP with +350mm when he refers to +250mm several times in a way that seems to indicate max power.
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The part of the Ki-84 in AH2 I have trouble with is the combat flaps. I've read everything I can find and 90% of the sources call them Fowler style combat flaps. The problem I have is that our KI's combat flaps won't deploy until 168 mph, while every other plane in AH with Combat flaps can deploy at 225 or greater. Even the NIKI can deploy it's combat flaps at 225.
I find it hard to believe the IJA would model Fowler flaps and use them on the Niki as combat flaps, but restrict them on the KI-84 to such a low speed.
Does anyone have info on when and how the Ki-84's flaps were used IRL ?
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Hi 1K3,
>here's an interesting note from busa
http://homepage2.nifty.com/amraam/ah/tmp/bbs002.txt
Highly interesting, thanks!
A bit hard to understand, though ... I'll give it a try:
Ki-84 prototype No. 3:
Ha 45toku Homare 11 engine
Ki-84 prototype No. 4:
Ha 45toku Homare 11 engine
<631 km/h/6120m 6min26sec / 5000m>
<624km/h,6min26sec / 5000m> NK9B engine
Ki-84 early production:
Ha 45toku Homare 11 engine (perhaps)
Ki-84 main production:
Ha 45 Homare 21, derated (confirmed for April, 1945)
<583 km/h/6000m 6min48sec / 5000m> unconfirmed
Ha 45 Homare versions:
NK9A - development version for high-octane fuel
NK9B - 1800 HP, unreliable
NK9H - increased power, less reliable, different supercharger gear ratio
NK9H-B - derated NK9H, roughly equal to NK9B
Homare 12 - late production NK9B, equal to NK9H-B
Ha 45 Homare power settings:
prototypes
production
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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In AH from the clipboard:
Military: 2900rpm @ 250mm manifold
Normal: 2650rpm @ 100mm manifold
What Busa stated in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134252&highlight=Ki84)
Hello, all.
I want to give easy explanation about the performance of Ki84.
I submitted the official performance of Ki84 to Pyro.
The maximum speed is not <583km / 6000m>, and <631km / 6120m>.
Japanese planes are carried out performance measurement by Military power.
The engine which Ki84 installed is equipped with water methanol injection.
But Japanese engine of WEP is not related to water methanol injection.
The equipment operates automatically by MP higher than normal power.
There is no WEP of Japanese engine with output increase equipment.
It is an operation concept.
WEP was enacted in IJN in October, 1944.
But there are no data of having enacted WEP by IJA.
Also in the same engine, in IJA and IJN, operation restrictions differ in many cases.
I also proposed a possibility that takeoff power could be used for 1 minute.
But I think that this was equally treated by HTC with other airplanes without WEP.
The engine which KI84 installed is neither Homare21 nor Homare11 (Ha45sp).
The engine is Homere21 with documents.
But special operation restrictions are carried out.
The performance of the engine is completely the same as Homare12 (NK9 H-B).
The performance is as follows.
1820H.P. of takeoff power. (MP+350 RPM2900)
1670H.P/ 2400m of military power. (MP+250 RPM2900)
1500H.P./ 6550m of military power. (MP+250 RPM2900)
Ki84 prototype was installing Ha45sp with documents.
But the prototype of IJA installs the engine which is not usually government-issued supplies.
Ki84 prototype also had the engine which the development department assembled specially installed.
I concluded that the engine of the prototype of Ki84 was unknown.
The reason is because the prototype carried out performance measurement by MP+350 RPM3000.
These operation restrictions are the same as Homare21.
And the altitude which carried out performance measurement is too high for Ha45sp.
This fact is contradictory to the reduction ratio of the supercharger of Ha45sp.
The early production model of Ki84 may have installed Homare11(Ha45sp).
But the early production model of Ki84 may have installed Homare21 (Ha45).
The reason is that IJA tended to operate this engine by MP+350 RPM3000.
However, MP has not increased to +350.
Finally on documents, the engine which Ki84 installed is Homare21 (Ha45).
But operation restrictions were made the same as Homare11 and Homare12 (NK9 H-B) around April, 1944.
This fact can be checked till around April, 1945.
Ki84 in AH is installing Homare12(Homare21 derated engine).
Ki84 of a genuine article is installing Homare12 (Homare21 derated engine).
The prototype of Ki84 demonstrates 624 km/h by MP+350R PM3000.
Ki84 of AH demonstrates 624 km/h by MP+250 RPM2900.
This thinks that it is never the performance reduced unfairly.
These investigations are conducted based on the manual of N1K2-J, the manual of Ki84, the manual of Homare, INTERMIM REPORT NO.2, other manuals, and related 80-volume books of grade.
And even now, investigation is continued.
By the way, The climb rate of Ki84 greater than official performance now.
Isn't this thing more serious?
To FDutchman
I have translated the data of WEP, Homare, Ki84, and others.
Since other data were too extensive, I had you help.
It will be my responsibility if a defect is in data.
Thank you, FD.
I want my translation software to do good work.
Thank you all.
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Hi Wotan,
>What Busa stated in this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134252&highlight=Ki84)
Thanks, I had missed that thread!
Unfortunately, the Wright-Patterson scan posted by F4UDOA appears to be down - perhaps someone saved it and could post it again? Thanks in advance!
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by MOSQ
The part of the Ki-84 in AH2 I have trouble with is the combat flaps. I've read everything I can find and 90% of the sources call them Fowler style combat flaps. The problem I have is that our KI's combat flaps won't deploy until 168 mph, while every other plane in AH with Combat flaps can deploy at 225 or greater. Even the NIKI can deploy it's combat flaps at 225.
I find it hard to believe the IJA would model Fowler flaps and use them on the Niki as combat flaps, but restrict them on the KI-84 to such a low speed.
Does anyone have info on when and how the Ki-84's flaps were used IRL ?
I would be very surprised if the limit for the combat setting was really 168mph. I think what Busa probably found listed at 168mph was not the combat setings, but rather the first landing stage.
However, that is just my suspicion. I have found no evidence to back that up. It just doesn't make sense for that dinky little combat deployment to be only 20mph higher than the full flaps landing setting.
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if i recall, teh fowler flaps in ki-84 was the same from ki-43s and 44s which have lower speeed tolerance.
just my guess.
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Originally posted by 1K3
if i recall, teh fowler flaps in ki-84 was the same from ki-43s and 44s which have lower speeed tolerance.
just my guess.
I don't think so. I'm not sure, but I don't think Ki-43s and Ki-44s even had fowler flaps.
Also the Ki-44 was built for high speed as well.
Remeber, those three are all completely different aircraft and I doubt there were many, if any, parts shared between them. It would be like saying a significant part of the Tempest was the same part as on the Typhoon and Hurricane. Even that isn't accurate as the Tempest actually was an improved Typhoon, whereas the Ki-84 was a completely new fighter.
One of the features of the Ki-84 over the Ki-44 or Ki-43 was a greatly simplified production that was designed into it via fewer parts and easier to make parts.
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Wil,
does it mean that a 7 kills sortie is not enuff for you? ;)
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LOL Gatt, well, I've landed an 11 kill sortie without reload, And several 9's. 7 is the norm now :D
But to answer your question without bragging... NO :D
Interesting info on the engine though, our WEP runs at +400 though, not +350.
As for Flaps, gotto agree, seems slow but who knows...
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Wilbus,
What do you like about the Ki-84? What drew you to it?
I'm just curious here.
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After getting back to AH after my 10-month leave I wanted to try out the new planes, specially the much talked about Uber-forever-changing-the-MA-plane Ki84 ;)
Started flying it some while getting back in to AH and after a while I started to like it alot. Second thing that drew me to it was that almost noone else flew it,I was pretty much alone in the Ki84 in the air till about a week ago (like last suterday).
What has made me stick with it now, and the reason I've really really come to love it is its low speed handeling. It's a plane that handles "my way" and when flown right can help me handle the situations I often get into since I am a lonewolf mostly.
Good climb and good low speed handeling has made me come to love it and those two factors have alowed me to win 10 on 1 situations or even worse. Something few other planes would be able to do.
However, the Ki84 is only able to do this with the exact right handling, takes some time to learn it and it takes balls to fly at 100mph with 10 spits, lala, nikis etc on yer 6.
Now, since last suterday when I started flying it for real, the number of Ki's have really started to pick up in the MA, still no all that many but they are seen quite regulary. Some people claim (BS IMO) that it has become the new n00b plane. I still claim this is BS and the Ki84 takes skill and time to master to its fullest.
So, in short, a plane that is "me" and is capable of handleing situtaions wíthout too much alt.
I still love my 190's but they aren't all that good 1 on 1 planes. They are furball planes, stay fast and high and trust your friends to bail you out if you get too many people on your 6.
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Good answer.
It took me quite a bit to start having successes in it after switching from the Mossie. The Mossie is, pretty strictly, a BnZ fighter relying on tremendous firepower and decent high speed handling.
The problem for me was that the Ki-84 is actually quite bad at that role. I'd spent so long in the Mossie that I'd really lost all my brawling instincts from my Spitfire days and the Ki-84 is a superb brawler with it's low speed handling and great climb/acceleration. Further I realy like the fact that, for a brawler, it is quite fast and able to get out from the slow pack when it needs too, e.g. bingo ammo or fuel.
I have always seen a number of Ki-84s, but never anywhere near the P-51/La-7/Spit V and IX/Bf109G-10/Fw190D-9/Tiffie/P-38 levels. I just down't see it becoming the "newb" fighter ever due to the fact that combat trim makes it an utter dog whereas the Spitfire flys just fine on combat trim and has the forgiving Hispanos and the N1K2-J flys fine on combat trim and has ungodly gobs of ammo.
For me it has been fun to get back into an absolute first rate brawling fighter without having to endure the endless whines about it that the Spitfire incurred on its pilots. In the Ki-84 it doesn't seem that people assume I am flying it for the capability and not because I really like the fighter. Nor do they seem to assume that I am an unskilled dweeb who needs it as a crutch. I am, but at least they no longer assume it.:p
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Case solved
our Ki-84 is powered by Ha-45-12 engine
:)
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New film for those who are interestead.
Here (http://www.geocities.com/rasmus_friluft/phew.zip)
or
Here (http://www.savefile.com/files/3523775)
Followed last adice and zipped it this time, still about 2.5mb big though.
Fight starts with another knit nearby vs 3x P38's. Killnu, Stang and Lazer.
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glad you posted that, was a point in that fight, i had you lead perfectly on my end from 400 or so my end...on your film, appeared i was shooting behind you. by a ways.
unfortunatley, i didnt film that one, filmed the one right after tho, i hit a spit in tail 6 different times before tail came off... was nice.
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Ouch, pwned on film heh. I hadn't flown the 38 in months before that flight, and don't think I will again anytime soon. That thing is a pig compared to the KI84.
I've also come to love the KI84. It's a fickle bird that you have to know to get the most out of it, and I absolutely love that about it. It's not an easy mode SpitV just yank and bank ride or point and click la7 speed demon. It takes a bit more to do well in it, and it's a fun challenge.
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Wilbus, the Ki-84 has been one of my staple rides since it came out. I havent touched it much this tour, since I've been trying the "worthless planes tour", but next month I'll be back to my F4U-1 and Ki-84 standard. The two things that make it difficult for a new pilot to learn (IMO) are:
1) Low speed handling is great, but only if you can get those flaps out. Trying to maneuver at 100mph without the flaps is like falling into a vat of syrup and trying to swim around in it. You really have to either be very familiar with the way it flys, and know when you are slow enough, or train yourself to watch your airspeed. It can also be hard to get it that slow sometimes, once you are committed to the fight. It helps (IMO) to cut the throttle while you have a bit of space, get it slow enough, engage the flaps before having to get really down and dirty in it.
2) Learning a good POA for consistent gunnery is difficult because of the high ROF of the guns. They dont have the ballistics of the .50's say, or the 20mm Hispanos. They ARE very lethal inside 300 yards, once you learn where to point them for best effect. Takes time. This also means that while learning, your guns are going to empty faster because they fire so fast. So not only are the newer pilots frustrated by lack of hits, they run out of ammo too fast and become sitting ducks.
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Hey KillnU, well, problem with internet and AH is that as soon as you and I are maybe 100-200ms from eachother that is what will happen, the film shows you shooting behind me.
However, what happens on your FE when you shoot (you hit me) is what is really registrered. Unlike FPS games such as Counter Strike where, if you have 200ms delay you have to shoot and hit infront of a moving target (miss on your FE) to actually hit him, sounds complicated I know but it is the way it works.
What you hit on your FE was registrered at my FE.
Was great fun Stang and KillnU I always enjoy fighting against and with you guys!
StarofAfrica, I agree, ammo load and the fast firing 20mm (900rpm per gun so 1800 rpm for those two) is WAY fast, ammo is spent quickly.
Ki-84 is a superb brawler with it's low speed handling and great climb/acceleration. Further I realy like the fact that, for a brawler, it is quite fast and able to get out from the slow pack when it needs too, e.g. bingo ammo or fuel.
Exactly Karnak! The word Brawler really says it all about it I think.
I agree it will never become a n00b plane, takes too much knowhow to use it right and it's only got 10 seconds of 20mm ammo. Basicly every time I fire my 20's I use 15-30 rounds. A n00b with that rate of fire will be out of ammo before he even knows he had any to begin with. :)
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Dang it. Now I really want to take the 84 up for a few fights and I can't because I am at work. I can't even watch Wilbus' films.
About the guns, the two 12.7mm Ho-103s in the cowl are quite capable of killing by themselves. I have killed numerous fighters with just those. The Ki-84 isn't a Spit V, where cannons empty means "Go home".
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And we are sitting here posting at the same time Karnak :)
Yes the 12.7mm actually seem more capable then the 20's sometimes. I usually use the MG's alone some times for the kills I can afford to take more time on. Save the 20's for the really hairy situations.
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Wil, i didnt hit you on my end, was left frustrated and scratching head on how the heck i missed. ive been getting lots of that lately. gonna turn tracers back on and film bullets flyin thru cons...irritating.
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OH! That was unusual.
I've seen that too, been surprised when the target went down anyway. I think it may be an effect of the no hit sprites though. you don't always see hit sprites anymore. There will always be a certain ammount of debree though but that is hard to see aswell.
Could be connection though...
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Remember to take convergence and range into effect when you feel like bullets are going right through the target.
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Killin was in a P38, Star.
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One thing I've always been curious about but never have seen the answer to is whether the convergence in the P-38 affects bullet drop. Even though the Hizooka and .50 have remarkable flat trajectories, is it possible that setting the convergence to say 650 would cause the bullets to "arc" over targets that are closer than that?
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Yup they may very well have went through me on his FE but they sure as hell hit me :)
Connection to AH overall is FUBAR at the moment, seeing more warps lately then in a long long time. Getting spikes myself from time to time, something I haven't had for severak years.
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Originally posted by Urchin
One thing I've always been curious about but never have seen the answer to is whether the convergence in the P-38 affects bullet drop. Even though the Hizooka and .50 have remarkable flat trajectories, is it possible that setting the convergence to say 650 would cause the bullets to "arc" over targets that are closer than that?
This is certainly the case in the Mossie, but i find that arc helpful for making lead shots.
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Wil, there were 2 different times i fired on you. once i hit on your wing...the other was me leading you at about ...think 400, you pulling up in front of me, you was chasing somebody, i was going for cherry...the shot i had is one i shoulda hit, hit thousands of times before, but not that time...i aimed lead on my end, went behind you on your end, registered no hits, no hit sprites, nada.
my convergence in P38 with nose mounted 50s and a 20mm is at 425, i shot at about 400 on my end....dont think convergence is the issue.
wish i had run film that one, instead of one after...could see the difference i guess. bahh next time.
~S~
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Rgr Killnu :(
I've had those too, always frustrating and always thought it was my aim, maybe it is but maybe it is a connection issue aswell.
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I need to start learning to film my sorties dang it.
Flew two Ki-84 sorties last night. First one I ended up in a duel against an N1K2-J and a P-51D while trying to protect a squady's B-24s on a bomb run. I drew it out for about five minutes, and almost got the N1K2 and the P-51 several times, but in the end the P-51 managed to make a shot happen.
Second sortie was a long one with one rearm for bombs. I had some good fights in that one, including taking out a Spit IX and a Hurri IIc with just the cowl guns. Also got a C-47 with them on my way home. All told I think that was probably my most destructive Ki-84 flight to date, one VH, four AA guns, five town buildings, three Hurricane Mk IICs, one Seafire Mk IIc, one Spitfire Mk IX and one C-47A. If I'd filmed it I'd have looked for a way to post it, even though it did show me try to vulch a Hurri unsuccesfully as my angle was bad and the rounds landed behind him just as he lifted.
Ah well. Unless I start filming regularly I'll never catch the good fights. I'm not good enough to produce them regularly though.
Still, that fight did remind me why I like the Ki-84 so much. It is quite possibly the best all round fighter in AH, even better than the ubiquitous Spitfire Mk V and Mk IX. It has few really weak points and several very strong points. It seems much more a pure fighter than a fighter-bomber hybrid like so many other fighters. Nor is it an interceptor giving everything to climb and flat out speed. It is built to get in a tight situation and make a mess out of the enemy that tries to match it's manueverability.
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I have been flying the Frank for almost 3 months now (about the same time I have played AH2, this is my first flight sim). The combat trim point is very valid, as you do not get anywhere near the combat potential of this plane if you have combat trim and the stall limiter enabled. A squaddy named Despair taught me a few things about that, and I am a lucky dweeb for it.
I too have a love affair with this plane, but I am seeing more and more of them in the sky now (still not in large numbers). Typically I can get 2 or 3 kills before I have to land, unless I run into someone like Stang or Silat. The B and C version would be great to have, but I would perk it if its all cannons...about the same as the C hog.
Great thread!
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Turns as good as Spitfires.. but still as fast as P-38L at deck. That about says all! :)
One distinct weakness is the tendency to flat spin at low speed verticals... which you gotta be prepared for. When speed drops around 100mph, pull thos flaps up, tilt the plane to one side slightly so it can naturally tip over. Don't mess with the throttle, and don't leave the flaps down - insta flat spin!
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The ki.. I'm addicted to it, not good at it, just addicted :).
The thing I like about the flat spin.. Noone can hit you :)
The bad thing is the sudden stop at the bottom "(
Thanks for the tip Kweassa
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LOL @ JR!
I've gotten into the flat spin only once online. It was after zooming up with an enemy plane, my speed dropped and I forgot the check how long. I killed the enemy and to my surprise I had been flying backwards when I killed him. I've practiced the backward flying in the Ki offline but never gotten out of the following flatspin. This time I did though, somehow some way I got out of it.
I've not sure I agree with Kweassa, some of my vertical moves drop as low as 20mph without flatspin. Gotten really used to the plane.
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It depends on the recovery process Wilbuz. You probably instinctively recover well :D However, for most of us sucky pilots, all we do is go straight up, pull flaps out, and wait until the plane tips itself over...
...except in the Ki (or the Ta152, as a matter of fact!), this is a deathtrap. The plane seems to tip itself over, and then bam! suddenly at the top of the vertical, you feel the plane slipping sideways to yaw direction.. and then it just falls straight down.
The only way to get out of it is retract all flaps, push stick forward full, turn off engine, and kick rudders around so your plane gains some sideways momentum, and ultimately somehow the nose swings downwards. With a bit of practice you can recover from this gruesome flat spin in about 15 seconds.
So, after dying again and again from flat spins I finally learned to watch my speed, keep controlling the plane minutely with rudder, and be prepared go into recovery action ASAP.
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That is kind of odd. I've had the behaviour mentioned above happen to me in a 110, but never a Ki-84, and I flew the ki-84 pretty exclusively for a few months.
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Hi again,
With the restrictions on engine performance, was the Ki-84 a worthwhile improvement over the light Ki-44 at all?
Ki-84: 624 km/h @ 6.5 km, 16.4 m/s @ 5.7 km,
Ki-44: 616 km/h @ 5.0 km, 18.5 m/s @ 5.7 km
While the Ki-84 probably was a bit faster above 6 km, the light Ki-44 still climbed better. The Ki-84 with its larger wing probably held the turn rate advantage, but still ...
(All data rough estimates.)
Somewhere, comments from Japanese veterans were posted that expressed a preference for the Ki-44, since it offered similar performance without the engine troubles experienced by the Ki-84.
On the other hand, it seems that the Ki-84 was a big step forward in terms of production efficiency, which might have appealed to the JAF leadership.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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For fun I decided to see if there was any noticable usage trends for the Ki-84 as I think it is far more potent than the N1K2-J, yet sees a great deal less use.
Tour 66:
Ki-84-Ia has 6377 Kills of All models
All models have 4134 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 65:
Ki-84-Ia has 4998 Kills of All models
All models have 3670 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 64:
Ki-84-Ia has 5107 Kills of All models
All models have 3873 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 63:
Ki-84-Ia has 6186 Kills of All models
All models have 4204 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 62:
Ki-84-Ia has 5708 Kills of All models
All models have 4264 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 61:
Ki-84-Ia has 5825 Kills of All models
All models have 4156 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 60:
Ki-84-Ia has 5850 Kills of All models
All models have 4289 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 59:
Ki-84-Ia has 7946 Kills of All models
All models have 5874 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 58:
Ki-84-Ia has 12680 Kills of All models
All models have 9430 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
Tour 57:
Ki-84-Ia has 113 Kills of All models
All models have 80 Kills of Ki-84-Ia
It seems that after the introductory bump in usage it declined to a low of less than 5,000 kills last tour. It is up nearly 1,400 kills over that mark this Tour with some time left in it so it may be gaining some notice now. One thing I notice about it is that it alwasy seems to have a good K/D ratio, even in the first Tour when it is being tried out as something new.
It is a very potent fighter and it is odd that it sees such little usage. The ENY does need to be raised due to that low usage though.
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Yeah I think the Ki84 has gotten some more attention, I started flying it for real about 1 1/2 week ago, last suterday, before that I rarely saw them.
HoHun, well, same performance, not sure...
Comparing Empty weight power to weight ratio the Ki84 has got 0.75 hp/kg and the Ki44 0.72. This is calculated with a 1990 45/21 engine for the Ki84 though. Seems as if we have a bit weeker engine so the power/weight are probarly quite similair.
Ki84 had better armament.
The real reason for engine troubles for the Ki84, just as the other troubles with it, was non educated personal who built the planes. Basicly, by the time the Ki84 was put into production most of the educated personal had been drafted. Ki84 also suffered from poor landing gear, bad radios etc.
I believe the Ki44 was put in to production around 1941, right? That would be 3 years before the Ki84 where there was still educated people to work on it.
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Yeah, the Japanese really "bleeped" up when it came to managing their wartime industry. Their samurai attitude placing the value of fighting men so far above anything else prevented them from seeing the need to specifically not allow their skilled work force to act as mere conscripts and cannon fodder. A skilled Nakajima machinist would have done vastly more for their war effort in a Nakajima factory than he did half trained with a rifle in some fetid jungle.
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Holy crap, now I have to go look up "Fetid"...
:eek:
Magoo
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Hi Wilbus,
>Comparing Empty weight power to weight ratio the Ki84 has got 0.75 hp/kg and the Ki44 0.72. This is calculated with a 1990 45/21 engine for the Ki84 though.
Hm, I'm using the following values (peak power at low gear full throttle height):
Ki-84: 1650 HP @ 2600 m (2900 rpm), 3608 kg
Ki-44: 1575 HP @ 2000 m (2650 rpm), 2764 kg
The Ki-44 power is from TAIC, so I can't be sure it's not too high maybe. It matches the Japanese climb figures, though.
>Ki84 had better armament.
True, but the Ki-44 seems to hav been able to carry 2 x 20 mm cannon, too (albeit it seems it never did so operationally).
>The real reason for engine troubles for the Ki84, just as the other troubles with it, was non educated personal who built the planes.
Hm, I'm not sure it's not metallurgy as the poor Ki-84 performance seems to be a result of engine problems. You're right on the other operational problems, though.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Their samurai attitude placing the value of fighting men so far above anything else prevented them from seeing the need to specifically not allow their skilled work force to act as mere conscripts and cannon fodder.
It's got a lot to do with how warfare was in Asia to really understand this. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the samurai attitude - it runs deeper into the history of society and warfare in Asia, than being just an ideological problem.
For example, the current Korean military is about the nastiest place for a lively young man in his early 20's to be. Every male is to be conscripted and serve two years of military service.
The barracks are like the size of a living room in most homes, where about 20 people sleep in cramped up spaces. It's basically what Western people would expect to see in their own prisons. The pay is like 20 bucks for a month of service.
The conditions are inhumane. Toilets and showers are utterly crappy. Food service is horrible and hardly clean at all. Beatings still occur. People sleep in makeshft barracks where rainfalls can cause landslides and bury everybody inside. There is hardly any welfare associated with being in the military, but still we're forced to suck it up.
Why? Because defending a country is a duty, and when faced with a duty you aren't supposed to ask questions, or complain. Whatever they tell you to do, you just do it.
I mean, in modern warfare, would these kind of conscripts make any difference? Look at the way the US military just simply ripped through Iraqui resistance in the war.
The whole point for the military service in South Korea is that if a war ever breaks out with North Korea, whether the soldiers are ready or not, equipped or not, of high morale or not.. a war is gonna be fought and no young man will be able to just sit out and wait to be prepared for war. The military is going to throw the soldiers as a buffer in the frontlines. Soldiers aren't trained to fight and survive - they are just trained to fight.
The key to understanding why people do this kind of stuff, is the key to understanding Japan in the final days of war. It's not just a samurai thing. It's an old Asian habit of warfare that just doesn't die out.
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well put!
:aok
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HoHun, I am using Maximum takeoff power. Ki84 with 45/21 engine is 1990 hp. Ki44 HA-109 engine 1520hp.
For the Ki44, as far as the figures I've found is 1520 hp (HA-109 engine). EMPTY weight 2105 kg. Power/weight = 0,722. (Ki-44 II B version).
Ki84 is 1990 hp Ha-45-21 engine. Empty weight 2660kg. Power/weight = 0,748. (ki-84-Ia)
If we instead use the power we think AH Ki84 has got it would be 1820 hp instead so power/weight '= 0,684.
For my power/weight comparison I use the official numbers with the HA-45-21 engine installed and the HA-109 engine.
With those engines and empty weight the Ki84 holds a slight advantage.
Power of engines is rated as maximum take off power. Can't really compare to different engines at two different altitudes IMO they way you did. Just my opinion though.
Compare maximum power to empty weight and maximum power to either maximum take off weight, or better, normal take off weight. IMO best power/weight messurement is messured by chosing empty weight. If not empty there will be too many factors involved, fuel etc...
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My moms neighbors brother was an engineer at a plant producing k84s during the war, when he came to visit and we all went to dinner he said that the being chosen to shuttle the aircraft to deliver them was akin to being chosen to be a kamakazi pilot, many of the shuttle pilots crashed because of the engineering with avail. materials made the plane very dangerous and prone to catastophic failure of various components. Said it was very disheartening to see brand new aircraft and more importantly pilots not making it even a few hundred yards from the runway before hitting the water.
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No kidding? wow. Only one Frank left in the world isn't there? in Tokyo.
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Hi Wilbus,
>HoHun, I am using Maximum takeoff power. Ki84 with 45/21 engine is 1990 hp. Ki44 HA-109 engine 1520hp.
The way I understood Busa, the Ki-84 is limited to 2900 rpm, +200 mm Hg with both the Homare 12 and the de-rated Homare 21, which seem to have been the only engines fitted to the operational variants. According to the graph Busa posted, that is equivalent to about 1570 HP at sea level, which is what I'm using.
For the Ki-44, I'm using 1355 HP at sea level.
>For my power/weight comparison I use the official numbers with the HA-45-21 engine installed and the HA-109 engine.
Hm, do you have official numbers for the Ha-109? I reverse-engineered the TAIC graph for my numbers, which is not as accurate as numbers straight from the original source.
>With those engines and empty weight the Ki84 holds a slight advantage.
Hm, with my numbers (take-off weight, fully fueled, without external stores) it looks like this:
Ki-84: 3608 kg, 1570 HP - 0.435 HP/kg
Ki-44: 2764 kg, 1355 HP - 0.490 HP/kg
That's a significant advantage for the Ki-44.
>Power of engines is rated as maximum take off power. Can't really compare to different engines at two different altitudes IMO they way you did. Just my opinion though.
Well, I calculated performance over the entire envelope and just provided two cornerstone data points for quick reference. The exact comparison altitude does indeed change the balance between the two aircraft, the Ki-84 benefitting from altitudes greater than 6 km.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Rgr HoHun, different numbers differnet results.
Yours may very well be more accurate.
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Bring Ki43 Ki44 Ki100 to Aces High.
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LOL Mitsu.
Well, since you're at it... I'll just join in.
Bring the Ki 43, 44 and 100 to AH!
Btw, do you have some more info of the 100?
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The barracks are like the size of a living room in most homes, where about 20 people sleep in cramped up spaces. It's basically what Western people would expect to see in their own prisons. The pay is like 20 bucks for a month of service.
[/B]
In my coutry it caused quite a stir after some politician suggested putting MORE THAN ONE person into a cell. Yes, in prisons. Yes, the place where even the Dutch put their murderers, bank robbers, terrorists and drug dealers. Ok, you're not free to go where you want, but you can get cable TV, make phone calls every now and then and if you're lucky you can 'see' your wife in a private room occasionally. So, out of interest, what do your prisons look like?
We don't have conscripts anymore, but from my friends and colleagues I know that it was 18 months of boredom, usually spent watching a certain type of movie and drinking lots of beer. And occasionally you were supposed to shoot an Uzi.
There is a lot of talk about respect (and moral values) in my country, there isn't any anymore, not for teachers, not for parents, not for the police, not for any figure of authority. I'm 34 years old and I've seen the shift from a teacher being an unquestionable figure of authority, to someone who is called by his first name, to someone who has to take abuse and in a number of cases violence. Ok, I oversimplified, but you get the idea. Yes, this worries me.
I do not hope to understand Asian culture in my lifetime, but I work with German people a lot. The Netherlands share a border with Germany but the difference is quite noticeable. Germans do what they are told, they don't question their boss, most certainly not when he has 'Dr.' in front of his name. Dutch people do. The site manager where I work here is called by hirst first name from cleaners to engineers to the janitor. That would be unthinkable in Germany.
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The Ki-100 is slow '45 fighter, but it is like the Ki-43-III or A6M5b with good ammo.
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Weight and engine power mitsu? Armament?
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Its a Ki-61 airframe with a Ha-112-H radial engine. There were Ki-61 airframes waiting on the Ha-140. The factory producing the Ha-140 was bombed by B-29s and production disrupted.
They decided to mate the Ki-61 airframes to the radial Ha-112.
A couple of quotes (I can't verify their accurracy...)
Ki-100 (prototypes)one Cell of Kawasaki Ki-61 II KAI with Radial engine.
Ki-100 Ia Figther Type 5 of Army (mark Ia) initial model of series, KI-61 II KAI modified
Ki-100 Ib(Mark Ib) total vision cabin
Ki-100 II Prototypes- engine Mitsubishi Ha-112-II Ru with Turbocompressor of 1,500 Hp.
Specifications
Model: Ki-100-1a/b (396 produced)
Powerplant: One 1500 hp Mitsubishi Ha112-II engine.
Performance
Max Speed: 360 mph (580 km/h) at 19,685 feet (6,000 m).
Initial climb: 2,734 ft (833 m) / minute.
Service ceiling: 36,090 feet (11,000 m)
Maximum range: 1367 miles (2,200 km)
Dimensions and weights
Wingspan: 34 ft 4 in (10.48 m)
Length: 28 ft 11 in (8.82 m)
Height: 12 ft 4 in (3.75 m)
Wing area: 215 ft² (20 m²)
Weights: 5,567 lb (2,525 kg) empty, 7,705 lb (3,495 kg) loaded.
Armament
Two fuselage-mounted 20 mm Ho-5 cannon and two wing mounted 12.7 mm Ho-103 machine guns
The Ki-100 was simple to fly and maintain. Even the most inexperienced pilots were able to get the hang of the Ki-100 relatively quickly. The Ha-112 engine proved to be quite reliable and simple to maintain. In combat, the Ki-100-Ia proved to be an excellent fighter, especially at low altitudes. It possessed a definite ascendancy over the Grumman F6F Hellcat. In one encounter over Okinawa, a Ki-100-equipped unit destroyed 14 F6F Hellcat fighters without loss to themselves. When the Ki-100 encountered the P-51D Mustang at low or medium altitudes over Japan, it was able to meet the American fighter on more or less equal terms. The outcome of P- 51D vs Ki-100 battles was usually determined by piloting skill or by numerical advantage rather than by the relative merits of the two fighter types. However, at altitudes above 26,000 feet, the maneuverability of the Ki-100 began to fall off rather severely and the fighter was at a relative disadvantage in intercepting the high-flying B-29.
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Originally posted by Mitsu
The Ki-100 is slow '45 fighter, but it is like the Ki-43-III or A6M5b with good ammo.
Wouldn't it be more like a Ki-61 with more drag? After all, it is a re-engined Ki-61.
I've seen extraordinary claims that the Ki-100-1-Otsu was Japan's best fighter. However, considering its actual performance I cannot agree. Seriously, its performance numbers were not notably better than late Ki-61s and would suffer from the same weaknesses in AH2 as the Ki-61. Those being poor climb and miserable acceleration.
I'd rather see the Ki-44-II-Hei introduced before the Goshikisen.
My regards,
Widewing
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Wilbus do you own FB/AEP/PF?
Ki-100 is flyable there (I like Ki-61 better). The Ki-84 has water / methanol and has max speed of 425 or so...
Comaprison of Ki-100-1 / Ki-84-1b
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/334_1122940874_ki10084.jpg)
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Thanks Wotan :)
Looking at the numbers, engine power vs weight and so on, the Ki84 seem to be the better fighter (if one is to compare the Japanese best fighter of the war). I too have seen claims of both the Ki100 and Ki84 being the "best".
Looks interesting though and would be very nice to have.
Would have to agree with Widewing aswell though would rather see the Ki44 first.
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Ops, mate my last post at the same time as you posted the charts I believe.
Yes I won FB/AEP/PF and will try the Ki100 in there. Haven't flown PF all that much yet.
Looking at those charts aswell the Ki84 looks to be the superior plane.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Its a Ki-61 airframe with a Ha-112-H radial engine. There were Ki-61 airframes waiting on the Ha-140. The factory producing the Ha-140 was bombed by B-29s and production disrupted.
They decided to mate the Ki-61 airframes to the radial Ha-112.
A couple of quotes (I can't verify their accurracy...)
It possessed a definite ascendancy over the Grumman F6F Hellcat. In one encounter over Okinawa, a Ki-100-equipped unit destroyed 14 F6F Hellcat fighters without loss to themselves. When the Ki-100 encountered the P-51D Mustang at low or medium altitudes over Japan, it was able to meet the American fighter on more or less equal terms. The outcome of P- 51D vs Ki-100 battles was usually determined by piloting skill or by numerical advantage rather than by the relative merits of the two fighter types. However, at altitudes above 26,000 feet, the maneuverability of the Ki-100 began to fall off rather severely and the fighter was at a relative disadvantage in intercepting the high-flying B-29.
For starters, I cannot find a single case at Okinawa where 14 Hellcats were lost in one day, to ALL CAUSES, much less to a fighter that was only just entering service.
I've read similar stuff on the web and in badly researched books.
Emmanual Gustin's site repeats what I believe Rene J. Francillon claims in his book of 14 Hellcats killed by Ki-100s without loss. Naturally, NO ONE can produce any combat records to prove it. That's understandable, because it never happened. Several years ago, I went through Navy squadron AARs looking for any reference to combat between the F6F and the Kawasaki. I found only one. I also found no JAAF units flying the Ki-100 at Okinawa. Probably because the first Ki-100 didn't fly until February of 1945 with first deliveries not beginning until late March. By mid March, the only things flying from Okinawa were seagulls, and they had to watch their tails too.
Historian Henry Sakaida states in his Osprey book, " The Ki-100-I-Otsu was undoubtably one of the best piston-engine fighters of World War 2". Frankly, I think old Henry was being a bit delusional. Wishful thinking at best. It would have been a first-rate fighter had it appeared in early 1942. However, when it did appear in early spring of 1945 is was hopelessly out-classed.
My regards,
Widewing
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(I can't verify their accurracy...)
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I don't presume to know much about Ki-61/Ki-100 development but what I have read from Japanese pilots was that the Ki-100 was well liked and in a lot of cases preferred over the Ki-61-II. I don't know if the reasons were the reliability problems with the Ha-140 or what (maybe Mitsu can answer). It was only marginally faster then the Ki-61... Same with its climbrate
At a max speed of 360 mph I don't see how it could have been considered the 'best' at anything. I certainly can't see it as much of a bomber interceptor... However, as I said its reputation among the folks who flew it was high.
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I think the Ki-100 being considered the best fighter is taking reliabilty into account. In most sims we don't deal with that and so the Ki-84 gets to shine, whereas in reality it was the best if it worked and that was a big "if".
FYI, the Ki-100 only had 1% greater frontal area than did the Ki-61 so there was not much drag added. Takeo Doi, the lead engineer on the Ki-61 and the leading proponent of liquid cooled engines in fighters in Japan, did a masterful job in converting the Ki-61 to take the Ha-112 engine in only 12 weeks. Must have been an unpleasant job for him though given his fondness of liquid cooling.
I would rather see the Ki-61-II and the Ki-44-II added than the Ki-100.
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There were only ~70 complete Ki-61-II built vs ~395 Ki-100. Combine those numbers with the poor reliability of the Ha-140 engine and it seems doubtful that the Ki-61-II was flown in any significant numbers at all. Then again; just how many Ta-152H-1 made it into service? ;)
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Originally posted by Wotan
Its a Ki-61 airframe with a Ha-112-H radial engine. There were Ki-61 airframes waiting on the Ha-140. The factory producing the Ha-140 was bombed by B-29s and production disrupted.
They decided to mate the Ki-61 airframes to the radial Ha-112.
A couple of quotes (I can't verify their accurracy...)
The words "highly unlikely" come to mind, especially that one about 14 F6Fs going down on one day over Okinawa. US Squadron records are pretty accurate, and I'll bet you can't find a day over Okinawa when we lost 14 fighters.
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I'll bet you can't find a day over Okinawa when we lost 14 fighters.
Who is 'we'? Were you there?
Anyway, as I stated in the quote you posted and as I have re-quoted in reply to Widewing:
(I can't verify their accurracy...)
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Off topick.
The thing I love the most about the Ki. P38 pilots don't know what to do when they see their endless looping does not work. Then they try to turn. Finally, they try to dive away :lol
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It's great, isn't it, Dedalos? :P
P38s were all I used to see before the ki84 came out. It was "the fad" to just take a p38, and do nothing but loop other planes into a bored death. But once the Ki came in I found I could easily keep pace with the 38s and it was my new best ride for 38 killing. After the Ki came out I also noticed a LOT less P38s in the air!! LOL!!!
Before the Ki I was able to use a 109 to some extent, but the Ki zooms and climbs better, and turns tighter so it does the job with flying colors.
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I think why Japanese pilots loved the Ki-100, is its maneuverability and durability.
BTW the Ki-100 had 2x20mm CAN (250rds*2) and 2x12.7mm MG (250rds*2). 500 20mm ammo is enough for killing planes, isn't it?
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Originally posted by Krusty
It's great, isn't it, Dedalos? :P
P38s were all I used to see before the ki84 came out. It was "the fad" to just take a p38, and do nothing but loop other planes into a bored death. But once the Ki came in I found I could easily keep pace with the 38s and it was my new best ride for 38 killing. After the Ki came out I also noticed a LOT less P38s in the air!! LOL!!!
Before the Ki I was able to use a 109 to some extent, but the Ki zooms and climbs better, and turns tighter so it does the job with flying colors.
believe it or not, but if your AUTO COMBAT TRIM is off, you'll get the most out of teh Ki-84, 109, or any plane by setting them neutral.
PS my elevator trim is set at dead center, rudder and ailerons make sure its set balance for med-hi speeds and fine tune it so teh plane wont go side-slipping or roll by itself
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Originally posted by Mitsu
I think why Japanese pilots loved the Ki-100, is its maneuverability and durability.
BTW the Ki-100 had 2x20mm CAN (250rds*2) and 2x12.7mm MG (250rds*2). 500 20mm ammo is enough for killing planes, isn't it?
Yeah, if you can actually get close enough to one! ;)
By the way, it's great to have you back Mitsu.
My regards,
Widewing
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The thing I love the most about the Ki. P38 pilots don't know what to do when they see their endless looping does not work. Then they try to turn. Finally, they try to dive away
Well.. that would be if the Ki84 can survive the first two~three loops with a P-38 until it becomes a contest of the 'patented super-low speed tight-looping'.
The Ki-84 is probably the only plane which can play the P-38 at its own game, better than any other in the set... but it still can be a tough challenge depending on the pilot.
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So how do you handle spits in a ki?
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Originally posted by FTJR
So how do you handle spits in a ki?
Against the current Mk Vb and F.Mk IX I simply out power them and use tight spiral climbs with flaps out to get above them. Then I kill them at leisure.
When/if we get the LF.Mk VIII and LF.Mk XVI I don't know. It will depend on how capable those fighters prove to be.
After flying the Mk XIV on Tuesday I think the Ki-84 has some very large advantages over it as long as the Spit XIV does not go for the straight power BnZ. If it does that the Ki-84 needs to be good at dodging as there is no way for the Ki-84 to match the Spit XIV in that kind of fight.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Well.. that would be if the Ki84 can survive the first two~three loops with a P-38 until it becomes a contest of the 'patented super-low speed tight-looping'.
The Ki-84 is probably the only plane which can play the P-38 at its own game, better than any other in the set... but it still can be a tough challenge depending on the pilot.
He he, this is the MA you are talking about. Most will die trying to rop the Ki. The good, would proly kill you any plane any way.
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Originally posted by FTJR
So how do you handle spits in a ki?
Before the merge go nose down a few degrees and wep on. At about 1K to 800 pull up. You can do the spiral clime if you want but you can try and make the spit think you are going to turn with him. Complete an imel and then pull up again and go into the spiral clime. If the fight started at a reasonable spit for the Spit hell be slow and below you.
In short, equal pilots and startign co e, all the spit can do is run for the ack.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Before the merge go nose down a few degrees and wep on. At about 1K to 800 pull up. You can do the spiral clime if you want but you can try and make the spit think you are going to turn with him. Complete an imel and then pull up again and go into the spiral clime. If the fight started at a reasonable spit for the Spit hell be slow and below you.
In short, equal pilots and startign co e, all the spit can do is run for the ack.
Very true D, in the MA about the only plane that starts me sweating is the Ki84 when I am in a Spit 5.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Very true D, in the MA about the only plane that starts me sweating is the Ki84 when I am in a Spit 5.
Forgot to mention that it takes a while to get used to the KI and what it can do for you, but I guess that goes for every plane also.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Very true D, in the MA about the only plane that starts me sweating is the Ki84 when I am in a Spit 5.
Lol, for me is the Spit V, no matter what I am in :rofl