Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sullie363 on July 19, 2005, 12:53:01 AM
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Is it a speed demon? Tight turner? Roles like a 190? Distance runner like a 51? One big interceptor? Slow as all hell? Ultra ground pounder?
Basically, how does it compare and differ from our current P47.
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Lots of fuel, fast down low, incredibly fast up high. Decent climb rate if you take 25 or 50% fuel.
It'll be a monster in the hands of those who know how to use it.
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How will it turn? The wings have more surface area so will it turn better than the D40?
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The P40 is a monster in the hands of those who know how to use it.
It'll be about the pilot as always. :)
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Originally posted by Octavius
The P40 is a monster in the hands of those who know how to use it.
It'll be about the pilot as always. :)
No, the P-40 is effective in the hands of those who know how to use it, but it is completely possible to overpower it with brute force. The P-47N will be pretty much immune to that.
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So absolute you are. Shrug, okay.
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No, not absolute. The pilot is the most important factor, but it'd be foolish to think a P-40B is as good as a P-47N, a Bf109E-4 as good as an Me262, a Hurricane Mk I as good as a Tempest Mk V, a Ki-43-Ia as good as a Ki-84-Ib or an I-16-18 as good as an La-7. Certainly all ten of those fighters can kill and be a threat in the hands of a skilled pilot, but nobody reasonable is going to agree that, with skilled pilots, the five from the beginning of the war are as capable as the five from the end of the war.
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Compared to the D-40 I'd expect the P-47N to turn slightly worse. It has a bigger wing, but also more weight to carry round. I had a quick look at some figures a few weeks ago. IIRC these suggested a worse wing loading, but better power loading than the P47D-40. Another way the N should be better than a D is its roll rate, it had improved ailerons fitted.
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a fat arse over grown p-51d pretty much :D
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its more manuverable i think, but it stalls a little worse because of the added weight. roll rate is like an added 25 degrees per second over the d40. its an uber 47, but youve gotta be a dang good pilot to fly it right
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"It'll be about the pilot as always. "
No way! Everyone knows the planes are modelled with a high bias towards Allied aircraft.
Like in EQ if I put on a robe of 190-D9 equippped with 4X killing power of CannonOskite I should be able to easily beat down a lowly girlie pile-it wearing a chartreuse P-47C cape and armed with just an octo of pea shooters. But it never works out that way!
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Originally posted by Westy
"It'll be about the pilot as always. "
No way! Everyone knows the planes are modelled with a high bias towards Allied aircraft.
Like in EQ if I put on a robe of 190-D9 equippped with 4X killing power of CannonOskite I should be able to easily beat down a lowly girlie pile-it wearing a chartreuse P-47C cape and armed with just an octo of pea shooters. But it never works out that way!
Get over the BS allied conspiracy theory.
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"Get over the BS allied conspiracy theory."
Done!
But you need one of these:
http://www.internet.org/sarcasm_plug-in.exe
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Originally posted by Westy
"It'll be about the pilot as always. "
No way! Everyone knows the planes are modelled with a high bias towards Allied aircraft.
Like in EQ if I put on a robe of 190-D9 equippped with 4X killing power of CannonOskite I should be able to easily beat down a lowly girlie pile-it wearing a chartreuse P-47C cape and armed with just an octo of pea shooters. But it never works out that way!
Prove it?
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I could but to make it easier to explain Install this first,
http://www.internet.org/clueXfour_module.exe
then
http://www.internet.org/sarcasm_plug-in.exe
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and on the 2nd week god gave man a sense of humor.
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Originally posted by Octavius
The P40 is a monster in the hands of those who know how to use it.
It'll be about the pilot as always. :)
Enough said.
Same for just about any fighter in the game.
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Westy,
You are the only dweeb to have brought up the "Allied Conspiracy Theory" in this thread.
Most of us don't care at all which nation a fighter in AH flew for and think it is irrelevant to how HTC models stuff.
Go troll elsewhere.
Morpheus, Octavius et al,
You are being oh so very zen and all, but you know that is complete rubbish. You're just trying to hold your noses in the air and play a superior attitude.
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Quite the contrary Herr Karnak. I attempt to see the larger picture, and I think limiting yourself to mere aircraft performance is a very narrow assessment.
And if your "You know this is how it works" is your condensed argument, then you've got no argument. That is simply not true, it is not an absolute fact. I couldn't tell you the right answer, and I dont think one exists.
You think I have a superior attitude? May I ask where you get this from? I seriously consider myself an optimist in this respect; the underdog overcoming difficult odds. It is a great feeling, an efficient sense of accomplishment, to do more with less.
Anyone else care to agree with Karnak? Am I arrogant and superior in any way by appreciating the underpowered aircraft?
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Karnak. You've been around long enough to have read uncountable posts where someone will claim there is no way in hell that they should have been shot down by XXX because XXX was in an inferior plane.
I am mocking those who feel it is the plane and not the pilot - with a dash of the age old online conspiracy thing tossed in. That is all. Just a tangental thought towards those who swim in the shallow end of the pool triggered after reading the words "It'll be about the pilot as always." I apologize for my perspicacious rancor.
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Originally posted by Westy
But you need one of these:
http://www.internet.org/sarcasm_plug-in.exe
Any retort after this is pure gravy. Nice catch.
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Oct, if the P40 is so great, would they have even developed the newer planes? I think I tend to agree with Karnak. Plane for Plane the P47N holds every card against an early-war slug, P40. I'm not talking a free-for-all turn-till-one-of-us-dies matchup either. Using tactics made for each plane.
Even
(http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/2004_11/images/skycaptain.jpg)
and
(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/PEPH/BA2C3.jpg)
would be owned by a P47N..or any P51 for that matter...and their planes were highly overmodeled. ;)
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HTC is the 1st sim company to model the P-47N.
I don't know how P-47N would perform but we all gotta toy around with to find its strenghts and weakneses.
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Westy , hope you have enuff room in the freezer for the haul u hooked , lol
38
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Octavius,
I agree that the pilot makes the biggest difference up to a point. Would a great pilot in a Fokker Eindecker beat an average pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon?
No.
Both the pilot and the machine play a part in the success of the combat system as a whole. That is my point. You cannot remove the capabilities that the aircraft brings to the table anymore than you can ignore what the pilot brings to the table.
I remember reading about one American ace who said he met a Japanese pilot in the air during the Marianas Turkey Shoot and that if the Japanese pilot had been flying an armed fighter he (the American ace) would have been killed that day, but instead the Japanese guy was flying a trainer biplane or some such. This backs up you position that the pilot matters and I agree that in any two WWII fighters the pilot is the biggest factor as long as skill levels between the contestants are sufficiently different.
That said, the skill of the pilot multiplies the capabilities that the fighter aircraft brings to the table and due to improving technology the fighters in question are not a simple mathematical give and take all totalling the same. The later fighters are simply more capable. Imagine running a Battle of Britain scenario where the Germans get the Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Ju88A-4 and Ju87D and the British get the Spitfire Mk XIV and Tempest Mk V. The outcome will be far different than the same scenario run with the same pilots using Spitfire Mk Is and Hurricane Mk Is.
Why?
Because, by and large, most people in AH have skills within spitting distance of eachother. When skills are generaly close, small differences such as better climb, more speed and heavier firepower play a deciding role.
That isn't to say that no Spitfire XIVs or Tempest Vs would be lost in that scenario, but it would be noticably fewer than Spitfire Is and Hurricane Is lost in the historical scenario.
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Rightfoot, where the hell am I speaking of the P40's greatness? I'm speaking of vs. .
Karnak, I have no idea what you're trying to morph this argument into, but you're not giving me any info that comes near to reversing my point. I didn't know AH incorporated twittlers and Eurofighters! How many countless threads in the past dealt with the man vs. the machine? And you want to continue this garbage here? Is there something I'm saying that you arent registering?
It's not even up for debate with me. In Aces High, the first player to make an unrecoverable mistake will lose. On equal grounds this is quite apparent - equal aircraft, equal pilot skills I don't think is possible to rate or rank). On unequal grounds - different aircraft - the amount of mistakes one can make varies.
^ Have a beast with monstrous acceleratoin? You've got cushion to screw up. Have a slow, lightly armed bucket of bolts? You've got very little cushion to screw up.
In a dogfight it's not about doing things right, it's about not ****ing up as much as the other guy.
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Originally posted by Octavius
The P40 is a monster in the hands of those who know how to use it.
It'll be about the pilot as always. :)
Sorry, I misread Oct. Of course its always about the pilot. Sullie was wanting to know what things he could do in a P47N that he couldn't do in a P47D40.
To answer his question, he can fly alot longer, and when he reaches the sweet spot in fuel load out the plane basically turns into a P47 with the climb rate of a D9.
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Still woundering why we are geting more ubber planes.
Only reason i can figure is "why not do all models of the planes we are remakeing, and get them done with. "
Um, imagine a p47d, with the ability to fly without your nose going down untill you reach 300mph, more fule......faster at all altitudes, and with its weight, with the engine, will most likely make it a freggin' 500mph beast of burden to all luftwaffle planes, and japs alike.
Im willing to bet we will see p47n's with full drop tanks, 25% fule, they will quickly climb to 10-15k fly to the engagement zone, drop all but the belly Dt, and start fighting, useing a shallow dive to reach ball burnin' speed, blasting with eight fifts at everything that moves, they will drop the last dt after pissin' some fifty *umptin' players off, turn to home, runing probably low and fast till they touch down at base. Safe and sound.
Cant wait to hear a temp dweep scream like a little girl as a p47n sticks to his tail like glue.
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Originally posted by Westy
"It'll be about the pilot as always. "
No way! Everyone knows the planes are modelled with a high bias towards Allied aircraft.
i been flying the g-10 lately.
i have come to a conclusion.
the problem is not the way the plane fly's, the problem is down to the sissies that generally fly them, and are too scared to actually fight properly.
heck, i fly around on the deck like a moron and turnfight anything in my G-10, despite that... i bet that i kill more and die less than the sissies do.
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Regardless of how uber the "N" model will be in speed and climb, the vast majority of whines about it will probably be along the lines of:
"Sure its bigger and faster and flys like a blue whale with a TitanII in its butt. It's just,,,, if, if, if ,,sniffff,,,,, those JUG-runnies would fly ACM manuvers down here with the real flyers, why we'ed chew'm up. JUG-runny perk dweebs........."
It'll kinda be the same old same old, LaLa runnies, Wulfy weenies, Runstangies, spit dweebies, JUG-runnies. And what will people think when the 56th who know how to fly JUG's as a squad starts flying 7-8 man sweeps? Just think of Nomde, Frenchy and YUCCA in this monster..............we been practicing in the F4U4 to get ready lately....................... .:D
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oh and karnak, before you say, that is not a comment on my ability, it is more of an oberservation on the abilities of *some* of the people that fly the G-10.
i am distinctly average in it, and unable to hit anything from further than 20 yards with the spud gun.
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my dad flys a p47n for the navy
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yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyy
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"my dad flys a p47n for the navy"
and his name was Admiral Biggus Dickus right?
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Originally posted by Furball
i am distinctly average in it, and unable to hit anything from further than 20 yards with the spud gun.
et tu?
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p47 stuff....
http://p47pilots.com
real pilot stories by association members.
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I dont see it as a
monster
IMO a tempest would hand this monster
its ass.
IMO the tempest is the biggest baddestmonster
of em all.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
IMO a tempest would hand this its ass.
IMO the tempest is the biggest baddest of em all.
Where the Tempest excels, down in the weeds, the P-47N should be at a disadvantage, but it's not as lopsided as one might think.
However, where the P-47N excels, the Tempest is a relative dog. Having tested every fighter at 20k, the Tempest is only average up that high. Moreover, the Tempest has a big hole in its performance prior to shifting to high blower.
However, down below 5k with equal pilots, the Tempest will win most of the fights.
Go up to 20k and there's quite a few fighters that will put a beating on the Tempest.
Typical acceleration times from 200 to 300 mph at 20k show the Tempest well behind many fighters:
Bf 109G-10 28.28 seconds
F4U-4: 28.59 seconds
SpitXIV: 28.90 seconds
P-38J: 29.57 seconds
Fw 190D-9: 30.78 seconds
P47D-40: 31.42 seconds
P-47D-25: 32.77 second
P-51D: 34.01 seconds
SpitIX: 34.41 seconds
P-38G: 38.78 seconds
Tempest: 39.63 seconds
La-7: 40.10 seconds
Ki-84: 41.97 seconds
There are several more that do considerably better than the Tempest, including the P-38L, 109G-6, 109G-2, P-51B, P-47D-11, Ta 152 and so on.
Climb rates closely follow acceleration rates.
So yeah, the Tempest is a monster down low, but only down low.
Should a Tempest meet a P-47N at 20k or higher (pilots being equal), my suggestion would be that the Tempest pilot race for the deck and hope the Jug follows.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Karnak
et tu?
moyen
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Allied Conspiracy Theroy sounds like something that came out of WW2OL
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Heh, if ya want to reeely test yer skill as a pilit: on yer first try in it, when it finally come out, just load that Bad Boy (the P47N, that is) up to the max with bombs and rockets and ammo and fuel, stomp down on the brakes, firewall the throttle, hit WEP, hold brakes till the rpms max out, release brakes, then see if you can get it in the air without crashing. I usually end up fishtailin down th runway and ripping at least one strut off on the first couple of attempts.
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talking about 25% fuel + DTs.
i dont think any WW@ pilot would upped to do combat with less then full tanks + or - the DTs.
i think when we hit takeoff, our planes shouldnt be allowed to go with less than 75% fuel onboard, DTs optional. its the only way to rid the gamer option of 25% + DT. hard code it no less then 75% fuel internal.
or no DTs if u chose below 75% internal.
whels
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I dont believe any real combat plane leaving for a combat mission (not a ferry flight) would ever leave without 100% internal fuel. I think a 75% minimum for AH would be a decent compromise. BTW, I take off with 100% in all planes except the P-38L, P-51's, and Mossie.
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Originally posted by Grits
I dont believe any real combat plane leaving for a combat mission (not a ferry flight) would ever leave without 100% internal fuel.
You'd be suprised.
Bozon
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Originally posted by bozon
You'd be suprised.
I doubt that, but if you have some info on fuel loadouts for cambat sorties I'd like to hear what circumstances they wouldnt take 100% fuel. Why would you risk unforseen events that might cause you to extend your mission and result in you not making it back? I'd rather be a bit heavy than out of fuel alltogether.