Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on July 20, 2005, 08:19:39 PM
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P-47N:
Sealevel: 365mph
30,000ft: 472mph
Ta152H-1:
Sealevel: 363mph
35,000ft: 470mph
Can somebody explain why the Ta152H-1 is perked and the P-47N is not?
The P-47 also carries more fuel, more ordnance and turns better. I'm not sure which rolls better.
Performance doesn't seem to be the reason.
How about rarity?
Well, the Ta152H-1 was certainly much rarer than the P-47N, but then what about the C.205 or N1K2-J? Those were also very rare, and in the case of the N1K2-J it is also highly used in the MA. The F4U-1C was very rare and it was not perked for that reason, but rather for over use.
So rarity doesn't seem to be the reason either.
So why the difference in the perk status of the P-47N and Ta152H-1?
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maybe cause its the first day of the N ?
just guessing
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Ta-152 can go on FOREVER with the MW-50 WEP
P-47N only has 5 minutes of WEP and 10 minutes of recharching time.
Maybe HTC is testing what impact does P-47N have on 1st week or month.
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If P47N does not recieve a perk tag, the P47D40 will never be used.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
If P47N does not recieve a perk tag, the P47D40 will never be used.
how do u know ... 14.95 hint hint
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I took 1 up with 100% fuel fully loaded out too the gills.
Without wep on i had 96 mins. remaining,with it on i had 101 mins. remaining.
Damn raptor got burnt.......It's a Celebration!!!!!
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I haven't quite formed an opinion on this one.
I'm still trying to force my preconcieved notions that P47's are pigs out of my head. When I see a p47 flying incredibly well like a standard fighter, my mind screams "HACKER HACKER HACKER" even though I know they are flying a p47n.
I think it's a little bit of both. The P47 doesn't "feel" like it should be doing those things, so the effects of what it does are amplified.
Add onto that the P47 does perform better then a Perk Plane for free and the effects are even more amplified.
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Quote:
Add onto that the P47 does perform better then a Perk Plane for free and the effects are even more amplified.
It's kind of like the answer too the Uber La-7
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Well, I just did some tests against DKPotter in the DA with it.
It is definately better than the Ta152H-1 as long as it's WEP lasts. Once the WEP is gone though the Ta152H-1 is better.
The Spitfire Mk XIV can do whatever it wants to the P-47N in a one on one, co-E merge. That wasn't close.
Ki-84 is the same as the Spit XIV in a co-E merge, but we decided to test it with the 47N starting with the altitude. At that point the 47N gets some passes, but don't play too long because if the 84 matches E or your WEP runs dry the 84 will eat the 47N for lunch. Keep it fast and disengage if the 84 even looks like it is getting angles.
Do not turn fight the XIV or the 84.
It basically feels like a heavier P-51D that carries more ordnance and climbs slightly better.
It is not, IMO, the anti-La-7.
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In the TA, I took 25% gas and a belly tank, with 267 rounds per gun (6 guns). I took off climbed to 38k. Now with about 18-20% fuel I eased down to 30k and hit WEP while doing 470 mph. The P-47N stablized at 476 mph. I ran several minutes of film just in case anyone doubts it. Speed was taken from E6B.
Here's the Fast Jug film (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/FastJug.ahf)
Climb: With just over 20% gas, it was climbing at 2,450 fpm at 30k in WEP. Weight is a big factor in terms of climb and (to my surprise) speed.
Roughly same fuel load but 8 gun, 267 round load, I got 366 mph on the deck.
Now, I flew just over 12 sectors with 25% gas and a drop tank, including climbing to 38k. Fuel burn in the TA is 1.0, so in the MA you would need 50% and the belly tank to fly about half that distance. In other words, there's hardly any reason to take more than 50% gas internally.
Power-on stall was 66 mph with full flaps, 79 mph clean.
Handling wise, it is more stable than the other Jugs at all speeds, right down to stall. Turn rate and radius is about the same as the D-11, but it requires less effort to prevent wing drop at the limit.
Roll rate wasn't measured but seemed faster than its siblings. Did a full power dive from 30k and at 591 mph, I engaged auto-level and it pulled out without damage.
I tested acceleration on the deck and at 20k. My test is to stablize speed at 200 mph and then apply max power (WEP) and measure the time required to reach 300 mph. It did this in 33.71 seconds at 100 feet. That's faster than the Ki-84, P-38s, P-51s, etc. At 20k it required 29.21 seconds, which is better than the 109G-10 (at 29.28 seconds). The SpitXIV does it in 28.90, the F4U-4 in 28.59 and the Dora requires 30.78 seconds. In contrast, the Tempest needs 39.63 seconds and the La-7 requires 40.10 seconds.
With a max speed between 472 and 476 mph at 30k for the P-47N, I can see no justification for having a perk price on the Ta-152 any longer.
My regards,
Widewing
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hehe
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The Ta-152 should stay perked. It was a rare plane and its impact on the war overall was 0.
The argument seems to be reversed. Despite 1800 or P-47Ns that were produced the impact the P-47N had on the war was 0 as well.
It should be perked if anything. Using it as an 'excuse' to unperk other aircraft or to 'dismantle' the perk system is nothing more then 'agenda' rather then logic.
The 'perk system' despite all the complaints has done what it was expected to do, at least to a degree. HT has said planes aren't perked on performance alone but on a number of factors.
One would assume that as the types and variants of each aircraft class grows the perk system would expand to cover those 'rarest breeds' of each particular type. The only real issue with the perk system is that it has stagnated and seems to have been forgotten.
If the intent behind the 'perk system' has changed or been forgotten by those on high then we may ask 'whats the point'. If the 'perk system' is intended to do 'something' it maybe time for HTC to articulate just what that is. Until then I don't think its prudent to make justifications for unperking this or that.
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I originally envisioned the N as a perk but after playing around with it, I didn't think it was all that would be necessary. I think the comparison to the 152 has some validity. We'll see how the N plays out and then I expect the 152 to follow it into a similar category.
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I'm actually glad the P-47N isn't perked. If it were perked, you'd never see it, which would mean that they wasted their time adding it. The Ta-152 probably doesn't warrant a perk tag, since nobody would fly it even if it were free, but I don't see why that should affect the P-47N.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'm actually glad the P-47N isn't perked. If it were perked, you'd never see it, which would mean that they wasted their time adding it. The Ta-152 probably doesn't warrant a perk tag, since nobody would fly it even if it were free, but I don't see why that should affect the P-47N.
I fly the 152, it is my preferred choice of FW rides. I was in a turnfight with an La7 and he ran. I was turning at 110mph OTD, and he bolted towards his field. I got an aileron though.
Only Jugs you'll see in are the D11 (fighting) or the D40 (jabo).
If I want speed I'll grab a 262, 152 or an La7.
Karaya
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Well Pyro, Personally I'd lower the perk cost of the Ta152 to something small (smaller than the C-Hog) and then match the P47n to it.
As it is right now, it's probably the best porker. If it's free, it'll be the best suicide porker.
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You should perk the p47n only if it takes 1000lbrs and/or rockets :)
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Neither the N or the Ta152 needs to be perked. Non of them will be overused I think. Only reason to perk the N would be for people to still fly the D40.
Thanks for brining it up Karnak, I didn't dare. Would only be called luftwhiner again.
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Well, don't forget to analyze the F4u4. While I don't think it performs quite as well, you have to factor in other things.
1.) It performs a lot better at high altitudes.
2.) It carries more ordinance.
3.) It flies further and longer.
4.) It carries (possibly) 2 more .50's.
The F4u4 is heavily perked, while the P47n isn't.
Also, one more factor. The use of something or the amount they had during WW2 is not a factor in deciding whether or not to perk something.
It's just a coincidence that most of the planes we have perked had very low numbers.
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but you ARE wilbus :p
hehehe. jk bud ;)
the 152 can be a smokin hot plane in the right hands, but i am gussing the 47n will be the same.. ok most of the time, but in a really good pilots hands; kick ass.
just my thoughts
lazersailor... i will comment that the f4u4 climbs awsome, and accellerates great, and does pretty much everything. i do not hvae enough time in the 47n (noone does) to see what it truly can do, and if it is a match for the f4u4. right now, the u4 can dominate an la7 even, and it's only real non-jet match is the tempest.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
If P47N does not recieve a perk tag, the P47D40 will never be used.
Guess that means the La5 is currently never used.
They gona perk the 'N' soon as they perk the Niki and Ki84 and La7:aok
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(QUOTE)
I originally envisioned the N as a perk but after playing around with it, I didn't think it was all that would be necessary. I think the comparison to the 152 has some validity. We'll see how the N plays out and then I expect the 152 to follow it into a similar category.
__________________
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
(UNQUOTE)
Well done, well said. When in doubt, don't perk. Perking was done to rectify gross imbalances in game playability (e.g., too many CHogs).
However, even as a proponent of no perks, I remain surprised the 3-cannon La-7 is not perked. There weren't many of them historically and sometimes there are proportionately too many of them in Aces High.
Perhaps it's because opponents can't tell which armament a bogey is carrying? And the two-gun La-7 might be just as lethal with less weight from the absent third gun?
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Originally posted by Pyro
I originally envisioned the N as a perk but after playing around with it, I didn't think it was all that would be necessary. I think the comparison to the 152 has some validity. We'll see how the N plays out and then I expect the 152 to follow it into a similar category.
It is just a matter of where you guys want to set the performance bar that requires perking. All I was looking at was consistancy. Personally I would probably perk both at about 5 just to limit the jabo usage of the P-47N, but whatever you feel is appropriate is certainly unobjectionable to my $14.95/month.
lasersailor184,
I didn't see a reason to test the F4U-4 against it. I tested the bottom end perk plane (discounting the F4U-1C as it was not originally perked and it is perked due to the guns and CV capability, not raw performance) and the P-47N was better, so we moved up to the second to last perk plane (looking at K/D and kills/tour not at perk price) and the Spitfire Mk XIV dominated the P-47N. If the Spitfire Mk XIV dominated it, why test the F4U-4 which is superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV?
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F4u4 is not superior to the Spit 14. Not even close.
But all planes have strengths and weaknesses.
You can't just say La5
It just doesn't work that way. You need to know at what you'll be using them. The F4u4 was never something great in my opinion. Especially at the perk cost its at now.
From what I understand the F4u4 wasn't perked because of it's capabilities, but a combination of its capabilities and it's ordinance abilities.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
F4u4 is not superior to the Spit 14. Not even close.
Usage and stats say otherwise.
Widewing makes a pretty compelling argument that the F4U-4 is superior to the Tempest Mk V.
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I'd say the 152 will get priced around the same as the chog.
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I can load a bunch of retards into Spit 14s and send them out against any plane and they'd get slaughtered.
The usages and stats don't mean anything. F4u4 can't outperform the Spit 14 except in Ordinance delivery.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I can load a bunch of retards into Spit 14s and send them out against any plane and they'd get slaughtered.
The usages and stats don't mean anything. F4u4 can't outperform the Spit 14 except in Ordinance delivery.
This seems highly unlikely to me. It seems to me that this argument hinges on a "Superior people like the F4U and only crappy people like the Spit." It is an unprovable position so you take it as a refuge from the only hard data we have, which is that the F4U-4 gets used more often than does the Spitfire Mk XIV and that the Spitfire Mk XIV does not obtain as high a win/loss record as the F4U-4.
Any group of people tends to average out the extremes. This suggests your claim about the F4U-4 pilots just being better is wrong. You're claim also does not explain why people would choose to fly the F4U-4 more often than the Spitfire Mk XIV given that the hordes in AH gravitate towards that which is best.
Unless you can give some evidence beyond your wishful thinking, I am not prepared to accept your theory.
Some examples of ways in which the F4U-4 is superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV:
Faster on the deck.
Tougher.
Greater fuel endurance.
Better visibility.
Better balistics.
Better roll rate.
CV capable.
More ordnance.
Better turning capability with flaps?
Examples of Spitfire Mk XIV superiority:
Slightly better climb rate.
Better firepower.
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Originally posted by Halo
Perhaps it's because opponents can't tell which armament a bogey is carrying? And the two-gun La-7 might be just as lethal with less weight from the absent third gun? [/B]
The B20 guns actually weight less then the Shvak. Total extra weight of the 3 gunned LA7 is 75kg's (165lbs) extra, and I suspect this is from ammo.
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Perk the jets and the temp, the rest are targets... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
F4u4 can't outperform the Spit 14 except in Ordinance delivery.
Meet me in the TA tonight or tomorrow night (my nights with the "duty") and I'll show why the F4U-4 is superior.
Just leave an address where you want the body sent... ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm up for it later tonight, possibly tomorow. Don't expect much, I hardly get to play anymore.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm up for it later tonight, possibly tomorow. Don't expect much, I hardly get to play anymore.
I'll look for you. I'm hoping Brooke will make it tonight or tomorrow. We'll start a good old-fashioned brew-ha-ha and have some fun. That's the great thing about the TA, no one has to wait for the other guy to re-plane. It's pretty obvious to the shooter and the shot when one gets clobbered. Besides, there's a steady stream of MA regulars who stop by to practice or work on some aspect of the game.
So, there's usually a good fight to be had. Then of course there's the Trainers, all very good sticks (Ghosth, TC, Fuseman, Hammer, REN, Drano, Silat, Soda... et al). During the evening hours there's usually one or two in the room. They all enjoy a scrum.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Wotan
The Ta-152 should stay perked. It was a rare plane and its impact on the war overall was 0.
You could say the same about the C-Hog.
I like the idea of a perk Jug..Maybe a small 4 perks.
and cut the cost of the Ta152 to 10 perks.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
F4u4 can't outperform the Spit 14 except in Ordinance delivery.
In the DA it would be interesting..I'd say a draw(once the spit14 got tired of roping and the hog got tired of extending and trying to sucker him in)
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Originally posted by SirLoin
You could say the same about the C-Hog.
I like the idea of a perk Jug..Maybe a small 4 perks.
and cut the cost of the Ta152 to 10 perks.
That's what I had in mind, small perk values for some planes.
Apparently Pyro has something else in mind. I don't think a free Ta-152 will mean much, its not going to get used that much more to make a difference. If you don't perk a rare plane like the Ta-152 then whats the perk system for?
With the Chog it was getting 15 - 20 % of all the kills in the main. However, this was when the plane set was relatively small. I doubt a free chog would get anywhere near 20% now.
As the plane set is growing is the trend to dismantle the perk system? It seems to me the opposite would be true.
If the 152 is free then the Spit XIV should be free as well. Same with the Chog...
There are a lot of good planes in the set and as the set grows it will only get better. If the perk system stays with just the few planes it has then why bother perking anything (with the exception of the 262 and 163)?
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Originally posted by Wotan
If you don't perk a rare plane like the Ta-152 then whats the perk system for?
In the CT: Keeping rare planes rare, when needed.
In the MA: Keeping the unfairly powerful planes rare.
Atleast, thats what I get from it.
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Yes, Tails summed up the intent of the perk system perfectly.
If the 152 is free then the Spit XIV should be free as well. Same with the Chog...
None of these should be free. That would rain pandemoneum upon the MA. However, I think that the Ta152 should be 1/3 the current price and the Spit XIV should not be less then half what it's at now.
Widewing, I didn't check in the DA, was looking for you in the MA though.
But I did have a great fight with Megadud. I edged out his Spit 5 with my Spit 9. I think the problem as to why I didn't win quickly was that I had just dropped a drop tank into 100% fuel. My bird was wriggling like crazy. But eventually I got the upper hand on him.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Widewing, I didn't check in the DA, was looking for you in the MA though.
I was in the TA from 8:45 until 11:15 Eastern. I had some fun flying P-47Ns with Broccoli/Phish/Bovidae/Bighorn (he changes handles more than I change socks! :) ) against Spit9s and P-51s.
Also there was RTR, BTW, Hammer, Fuseman, and several other MA regulars, as well as the usual group of new players. Counting myself, we had 3 trainers on tonight and no one wanted or needed help. So we furballed all evening.
Remember, its the TA, not DA and I'll be in there again tomorrow night.
My regards,
Widewing
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IMO it's all or nothing.
Either perk all the late war fighters, or perk none.
Having some perked and some not, is just bogus. At least, the price ranges are.
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I really don't think the Spit 14 deserves to be perked either, actually. Of course, this is coming from a "LW-centric" point of view... I look at the Spit 14 and I see performance that is similar to the G-10, but with better guns. But the G-10 is a little faster down low, where it counts, so it kind of evens out in my opinion.
Sure, the Spit 14 is a "monster", but so is the G-10, and the La-7 (which is better than both, again in my opinion).
The F4U-4 I don't really have much of an opinion on, I hardly ever fought one or flew one.
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Perk all besides hurricane, pony and spit mk1.
Really every plane should cost ya.
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I really don't think the Spit 14 deserves to be perked either, actually. Of course, this is coming from a "LW-centric" point of view... I look at the Spit 14 and I see performance that is similar to the G-10, but with better guns. But the G-10 is a little faster down low, where it counts, so it kind of evens out in my opinion.
Definately not. The Spit 14 still dominates all except those that are perked above it.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Definately not. The Spit 14 still dominates all except those that are perked above it.
Except the F4U-4 which is perked below it and it doesn't come close to matching the Tempest which is perked only slightly above it. Against an La-7, not perked at all, it is fairly evenly matched.
There is a reason the Spitfire Mk XIV sees practically no use.