Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Maverick on July 21, 2005, 08:57:08 AM
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It looks like a news story breaking right now. They are saying there were 3 explosions at subway statoins and another on a double decker bus. Something also going on at a hospital with Police in Chem suits checking it out. So far casualties extremely light with just one injured. The innitial reports seem to "hint" that the injury might be a potential suspect in this as well.
Brits can you shed more light on this?
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Not a brit but I got the same info As you some were in subways some on streets, they say just the detonaters went off. I have no clue though, hope every one is Hokay Dokee.:(
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Damn terrorists...
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Damn terrorists...
and THEN SOME.
Karaya
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I've heard speculation that the small size of the explosions is because it was blasting caps only, but at this stage, that's totally speculative.
One news commentator wondered if perhaps spreading a biological agent was the intent?
Personally, I'm hoping that it was just incompetence in mixing up explosives, and the caps are the only thing that went off.
Witness reports as of now on NPR say that the one person who is injured was wearing a backpack that 'exploded', which makes me hope he's one of the people caught in the act, since he's in the hospital and under guard no doubt.
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Here is the latest I could get from Sky News. Looks like at this point, the Jihadists have committed themselves to a war footing - possibly in the hopes that the Brits will eventually roll over like the Spaniards.
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NEW LONDON TERROR ALERT
Bombers have again targeted London's transport system - with up to four explosions reported.
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said the bombs appeared to be smaller than used in the attacks two weeks ago but advised people to "stay where you are".
Passengers reported one blast at Warren Street station off Tottenham Court Road in central London.
There has also been an incident on a bus in Hackney, East London.
Stations at Warren Street, Oval and Shepherd's Bush have been closed.
Scotland Yard have confirmed there is an incident involving armed police officers at University College Hospital in Bloomsbury close to Warren Street station.
An internal memo to staff at the hospital has warned them to be on the lookout for a black male, possibly of Asian origin, about 6ft 2ins tall, wearing a blue top with wires protruding from the rear of the top.
Police officers in chemical protection suits have been seen appearing to enter Warren Street, where British Transport Police say one person has been injured.
A initial chemical search at Oval station has proved negative.
Sir Ian told reporters at Scotland Yard the incidents were "serious".
There appeared to have been a series of explosions or attempted explosions. He urged Londoners to "stay where you are and go about your normal business" for the time being.
The Prime Minister will make a statement shortly.
Services on the Victoria, Northern and Hammersmith & City and Bakerloo Lines have been disrupted. The Victoria Line has reopened on either side of Warren Street.
Emergency services started receiving calls just after 12.30pm.
At Warren Street there were reports of shots and a nail bomb explosion. Sky's Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said police believe this may have been the sound of detonators going off.
Victoria Line train passenger Ivan McCracken told Sky News he spoke to an Italian man who witnessed an explosion just after the train arrived at the platform.
"He told me he had seen a man carrying a rucksack which suddenly exploded. It was a minor explosion but enough to blow open his rucksack. Everyone rushed from the carriage. People evacuated very quickly. There was no panic.
"I didn't see anyone injured but there was shock and fright.
"There was a smell of smoke."
"The man who was holding the rucksack looked extremely dismayed."
One witness told Sky News that passengers tried to prevent a man with a rucksack running away but they failed.
At Oval station there were reports of a man dumping a rucksack in a carriage then fleeing as the doors closed.
Police cordoned off the streets around Warren Street station. Sky reporter Mark White said: "Police activity suggests that they are looking for somebody on the outside here."
Scotland Yard said emergency services responded to an "incident" on a Number 26 bus in Hackney Road, on a junction near Colombia Road, east London.
Bus operator Stagecoach said the driver heard a bang at around 1.30pm.
The bus had left Waterloo and was in Shoreditch when the incident happened.
"The driver heard a bang which appeared to come from the upper deck. When he went upstairs to investigate, the windows on the upper deck were blown out.
"The bus is structurally intact and we don't have any reports of injuries," said a spokesman.
Sky News Foreign Affairs Editor Tim Marshall said: "There is nobody anywhere near the bus. This does indicate that police think it is still dangerous."
Sky News Online's Rob Cole was at Shepherd's Bush. He said: "The whole of Shepherd's Bush Green is sealed off. About 400 metres on both sides of the Tube station is affected."
Network Rail say all mainline train services are running from London stations.
Police are appealing for anyone with mobile phone images, pictures or video from any of the four sites to send in their images via a website http://www.police.uk.
It is two weeks to the day since bombers attacked three Tube trains and a bus in central London.
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They just exploded the detonators and there was no bomb as such. Looks like it was done to cause panic and disruption.
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Sounds like the same incompetent bomb maker providentially repeated the same mistake several times. This has happened a couple of times in Israel and Iraq. Or possibly this was just one group of amateur copy-cats from a single masjid who decided it would be a good idea to continue where the other group left off.
I guess we'll know fairly soon as we now have suspects, whom the police will no doubt get good information from by treating them well, providing them with prayer rugs, lawyers, copies of the Quran and first class meals. O wait, sorry that's the US. Hopefully Scotland yard will have other methods. :rolleyes:
- SEAGOON
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I hope they go medieval if they catch any of them.
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The important lesson here: You gotta know the right websites to get your bomb making instructions from. anarchistcookbookonline.com? Maybe not such a great choice.
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Originally posted by mora
I hope they go medieval if they catch any of them.
As good as that thought is, I'd rather they have a sodium pentathol option available in a case like this. Using duress as a means of getting information is less than reliable. A competent examination under medication will get more and better information.
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Goog point. Give them penthathol first.
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**** that. Start hacking fingers. It's a heck of a lot more satisfying too.
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The language filter does not allow me to express how I feel right now about the terrorists.
I live in the United States and I firmly believe you DO NOT screw with England.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
The language filter does not allow me to express how I feel right now about the terrorists.
I live in the United States and I firmly believe you DO NOT screw with England.
Well said.
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My sympathies are strongly with our British friends. Hope you folks catch these guys and imprison them for 100 years in the Tower... or something like it.
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hopefully there are no fatalities. apparently the bombs were of a triacetate composition and can be quite powerful fortuitously the bomb makers were inept. will some moslem sympathizer please explain how these attacks advance the cause of islam?
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there is no cause involved other than killing infidels who rape the holy land and occupy it for oil and steal the profits due mecca.
All westerners are complicit. All are targets. Your in a war here people.
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As an aside, any of you Brits read "The Abolition of Britain" by Hitchens? Is this worth an Amazon purchase or is it just junk?
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Storch - Please refer all inquiries in this area to:
The Spanish Consulate
Division of Terrorism Encouragement
C/O Signor Jaime Biggorlyman
The American Media
Division of Quagmires and Handwringing
C/O Ms. Leeda Effeetbleeds
- SEAGOON
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It doesn't. That's why we call them nutcases.
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If it's Peter Hitchens, Toad, I wouldn't bother. His editorials in the tabloids are reactionary melodramas.
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Originally posted by storch
will some moslem sympathizer please explain how these attacks advance the cause of islam?
Please reconsider your words. The vast majority of Islam does not condone these attacks, your statement seems to suggest otherwise.
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Chairboy,
Actually the words of the terrorists suggests (or flat out claims) it is a war of islam against the west or infidels. AFAIC there is darn little action on the part of the "majority of muslims" to lend legitimacy to the claim that they do not support this kind of terrorist action. Until they actually make significant progress on policing their own I'll continue to doubt that claim that they are not in favor.
Not a slam on you BTW I just have little sympathy any more for those who harbor and help those who conduct this type of activity.
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I think it's a copycat attack..
When have you had the terroists attack so soon after another attack with in the same locations and even the accidentle double decker bus explosion mimicked?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Storch - Please refer all inquiries in this area to:
- SEAGOON
Expected more from you than this, Seagoon.
Daniel
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Rules 5 & 7
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Originally posted by Thrawn
rules 5 & 7
No longer needed.
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Looks like 'duds'.
Looks like londoners are taking it in stride.
Brits are tuff buggers.. all the islamic jihadists will get outta this from England will be determined ass-kicking.
I sure hope we behave with half as much calm & class when they start hitting the NYC subway system.
The Brits!
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Rule 7
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
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Ok, I'll try again:
I hope I never meet any of these.......nasty people.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/209_1081438631_swoop.gif)
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The terrorists are British citizens. It's going to be hard finding someone to invade in response and practically impossible to capitalize on the attacks to further our strategic goals.
Having said all that, I get the uncomfortable feeling that Enoch Powell was in some way right.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Having said all that, I get the uncomfortable feeling that Enoch Powell was in some way right.
http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/powell_press.htm
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Indeed very nasty.
The only thing that concerns me is that I think if there was a biological or chemical agent released it is unlikely that news would be broadcast for fear of causing a widespread panic. I wouldn't rule out such a thing having happened.The only way we will find out is when we see a sudden spike in deaths from something mighty unusual in this country.
Scary stuff.
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Originally posted by Dowding
The terrorists are British citizens. It's going to be hard finding someone to invade in response and practically impossible to capitalize on the attacks to further our strategic goals.
Having said all that, I get the uncomfortable feeling that Enoch Powell was in some way right.
Clarify re: Enoch Powell.
Regards 'homegrown' vs 'forigen'.. how you folks handle this will in no small part impact how our government may handle our own domestic islamic jihadists. we've got 'em too. Enclaves in 5 major cities I'm aware of. Since we're an 'armed populace', I doubt seriously they'll survive very long should an attack on their fellow americans be forthcoming... possibly they are aware of this, may have had an impact on why we've not had any 'american citizen islamic terrorsit' hits here.
yet.
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Enoch Powell was a Conservative MP in the 1960s/70s. I think his seat was West Bromwich, which has a large immigrant population, and is not so far from where Skydancer lives. He was an ardent believer that all immigration should be stopped, and that those already here should be sent back under a system of "assisted repatriation". He made a famous speech which became known as his "Rivers of Blood" speech. A very clever man, he once wrote a book called "Income tax at 4/3 in the Pound" (4/3 in the pound was about 22%). No-one believed this possible, but Margaret Thatcher made the dream become a reality.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Since we're an 'armed populace', I doubt seriously they'll survive very long should an attack on their fellow americans be forthcoming... possibly they are aware of this, may have had an impact on why we've not had any 'american citizen islamic terrorsit' hits here.yet.
I think that will make bugger all difference. How many 911s do you need to be convinced?
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Expected more from you than this, Seagoon.
Daniel
Dear Daniel,
I am sorry if I personally offended you. Please allow me to state more clearly what I was trying to convey via satire.
I am not alleging that if Western nations stopped trying to conciliate the terrorists or the Media stopped giving them sympathetic attention (many news outlets now refer to members of Al Qaeda as "insurgents" while the current trend is now to call members of Al Ansar in Iraq "Guerillas" - Mosby was a Guerilla, these men who confine the majority of their efforts to killing and terrorizing civilians are murderers pure and simple) the Jihad would stop overnight, but a consistent lack of success might at least get them to change tatics.
There is simply no question that the Spanish decision to cave into their demands wholesale was a massive boost to the theory that European nations are to weak to resist a few high profile attacks on civilians and would immediately seek to conciliate their attackers (a process Churchill referred to as "feeding the crocodile in the hopes he will eat you last"). Al Qaeda attacked Spain and then issued an ultimatum which they said Spain must meet in order to avoid further attacks, Spain complied. This was tremendously encouraging to Islamic terrorists throughout the world, and to say it wasn't a factor in their thinking in the London attacks is to ignore their own declarations. Aggressors are encouraged by surrender and discouraged by stubborn resistance.
The millitants aim to cow the West, force us to withdraw wholesale from the "nations of Islam," to stop resisting the implementation of Sharia law instead of democracy, to force Israel to make enough concessions to totally destabilize that nation, and then once all that has been accomplished to set about the process of conquering Europe for Islam - a process already well underway via immigration.
I hold the newly elected Spanish government responsible for their decision to give the terrorists what they wanted, just as I hold the Western media responsible for encouraging the terrorists, fomenting anti-Western hatred, and aiding recruitment in Islamic nations. What Spain and the Media do in the name of politics ultimately has grave implications for our ability to contain and deal with what is essentially Jihad. I am not going to call what amount to fifth column activities anything but deplorable. Even the idea of responding to these men with concilliation is appalling. The string of attacks that really got started in the early 90s (The WTC bombing in '93 was something of a watershed event) have shown us that We have two and only two paths open to us - win or lose - they will not allow for any other option.
- SEAGOON
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GGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRR
just got back from being in town
its not the bombs that people dont like, we dont give a *****
about bloody bombs, but like many people, i dont like walking. being out and about in london, and then being told you have to walk 10 miles home is ridiculous!!!!!
i wouldnt have cared about the bloody bombs, but my legs sure hurt!!!
im ok btw :) only one injury troday, which apparently isnt bad. just some bloody loser wannabes these guys.
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beetle.. if the 9/11 hijackers were born and raised american islamic jihadists outta detroit, the islamic enclave in detroit would be a smoldering ruin and american born islamic jihadists would be on the endangered species list.
Meanwhile, our hearts and minds are with you and your fellow britans; we freverently hope you remain safe, and that the peretrators are identified, the terror cells shut down and that you all come thru without further incident.
Bless yer Island Nation!
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first step would be rounding up all brit islamic leaders preaching hate and the destruction of England and her allies ... and deporting them asap
at the same time those with the same message in America should be put on the same boat...
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Clarify re: Enoch Powell.
Regards 'homegrown' vs 'forigen'.. how you folks handle this will in no small part impact how our government may handle our own domestic islamic jihadists. we've got 'em too. Enclaves in 5 major cities I'm aware of. Since we're an 'armed populace', I doubt seriously they'll survive very long should an attack on their fellow americans be forthcoming... possibly they are aware of this, may have had an impact on why we've not had any 'american citizen islamic terrorsit' hits here.
yet.
Actually Hang,
I hate to contradict you here because I think we agree on some to the fundamentals (no pun intended) regarding this issue. But the fact remains the 9/11 terrorists lived and studied in the USA for quite some time, they did not have citizenship, but acted in all ways like resident aliens. They successfully attacked from within the country. Additionally, the Beltway Snipers, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, were both American citizens and Muslim terrorists who managed to kill 10 people before they were apprehended. At no point were they threatened by armed citizens.
We cannot prevent these attacks before they occur because we are simply not allowed to ask the question "What do John Allen Muhammad, John Walker Lindh, Osama Bin Laden, the London Bombers, the Bali Night Club Bombers, the USS Cole Bombers, the WTC Bombers, and the Chechen Rebels all have in common?" Because of that, all we can do is monitor (as much as we are able) react and resist.
Of course there might come a time when we finally say, "You know, it might not be a good idea to allow the Saudis to fund, build, and stock with materials Jihadi training centers in the USA."
But hey what do I know, as has been demonstrated here, I'm a bigot who thinks a religion isn't peaceful just because more than 12 million of its adherents are in favor of sawing my head off on video.
Sure, unlimited Islamic immigration and unfettered militant Masjid proliferation both in my birth place and adopted country aren't a problem. What was I thinking? Apparently progress looks a lot like the 7th century.
- SEAGOON
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At no point were they threatened by armed citizens.
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How can you possibly know this? where you there?
Source???
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Originally posted by Yeager
At no point were they threatened by armed citizens.
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How can you possibly know this? where you there?
Source???
Yeager,
The facts of the Beltway Sniper case are well known. We used to live in the area, and in fact many of our family members still do. At what point were the two of them confronted, wounded, or killed by armed citizens? Never once during their reign of terror. They weren't even detected during the shootings, they simply sniped targets via a hole cut in the trunk of their vehicle.
My point is that an armed citizenry - while it is good means of deterring most crimes and acts as a check on government tyranny - is no guarantee against home grown terrorist attack.
Although it is interesting to note that the 9/11 hijackings succeeded because the hijackers were the only armed and determined men on those planes, and because people had been trained to expect that if they went along with the hijacker, they would probably get through it alive.
Of course things changed on flight 93 when the passengers realized via cell phone calls that they were essentially riding in a flying bomb.
- SEAGOON
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But hey what do I know, as has been demonstrated here, I'm a bigot who thinks a religion isn't peaceful just because more than 12 million of its adherents are in favor of sawing my head off on video.
Horsepucky. I don't see you in that light, and I know of no others here that do either. If we can't disagree on some points and maintain mutual respect for each other then we've all lost the point.
Regarding the 9/11 attacks.. again, the path to the source did not lead here.
When and if we find a homegrown terror cell that perpetrates an attack funded by american islamists and staffed by american islamic jihadists the reaction (i believe) will be furious and deadly.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
and because people had been trained to expect that if they went along with the hijacker, they would probably get through it alive.
- SEAGOON
To the point that you would be terminated by your employer if you DID NOT follow this policy even if you successfully avoided/prevented/stopped a hijacking.
Thankfully, this policy is no longer in force.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Storch - Please refer all inquiries in this area to:
The Spanish Consulate
Division of Terrorism Encouragement
C/O Signor Jaime Biggorlyman
The American Media
Division of Quagmires and Handwringing
C/O Ms. Leeda Effeetbleeds
- SEAGOON
:rofl
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Expected more from you than this, Seagoon.
Daniel
Je vois pas pourquoi tu est surpris.
for the MP : you expect to much.
SEAGOON may I remeber you how Aznar didn't respected the wil of the people who have elected him and how he tried to cheat when after 11 march ?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Please reconsider your words. The vast majority of Islam does not condone these attacks, your statement seems to suggest otherwise.
you read much more into my simple statement than was put into it but that would be par for the course. having written that, perhaps the mods will allow the following.
the vast majority of moslems keep quiet when other moslems attack non moslems. IMO the vast majority of islam is therefore implicated in these attacks. I have an associate who is palestinian. he is quite well off from a security business here. i like this guy but at times i could pommel him, he feels (and claims that most moslems do as well) that these types of attacks were the will of god and that the victims had it coming to them as some form karma. chairboy i like you so i would ask you to put aside your liberal kumbaya outlook with regard to islam. islam from it's inception was militant and is far from a religion of peace. it's funny to me how christian's feet are all held to fire because of the acts of a few loonies like eric rudolph yet the moslems get a pass from some for the never ending acts of terror they cheerfully commit.
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Originally posted by straffo
Je vois pas pourquoi tu est surpris.
for the MP : you expect to much.
SEAGOON may I remeber you how Aznar didn't respected the wil of the people who have elected him and how he tried to cheat when after 11 march ?
I agree aznar being dumped was a function of more than just any single event, however the message sent to the terrorist is inescapable. the spaniards could have waited for a more appropriate time to depose aznar.
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Perhaps Storch but it's a case of "serpent qui se mord la queue" (snake biting it's own tail) :)
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Yeager,
The facts of the Beltway Sniper case are well known. We used to live in the area, and in fact many of our family members still do. At what point were the two of them confronted, wounded, or killed by armed citizens? Never once during their reign of terror. They weren't even detected during the shootings, they simply sniped targets via a hole cut in the trunk of their vehicle.
- SEAGOON
Wasn't those guys caught by a truck driver with a cell phone at a rest stop?
I don't think the police had a clue. They were looking for some crazy white male. In the end it was a concerned citizen that put an end to their terror..
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Originally posted by storch
you read much more into my simple statement than was put into it but that would be par for the course. having written, that perhaps the mods will allow the following.
the vast majority of moslems keep quiet when other moslems attack non moslems. IMO the vast majority of islam is therefore implicated in these attacks. I have an associate who is palestinian. he is quite well off from a security business here. i like this guy but at times i could pommel him, he feels (and claims that most moslems do as well) that these types of attacks were the will of god and that the victims had it coming to them as some form karma. chairboy i like you so i would ask you to put aside your liberal kumbaya outlook with regard to islam. islam from it's inception was militant and is far from a religion of peace. it's funny to me how christians are all held to fire because of the acts of a few loonies like eric rudolph yet the moslems get a pass from some for the never ending acts of terror they cheerfully commit.
While I aknowledge the difference between islamic and christian philosophy with regards to primacy it's stumbling block often devolves to how it's accomplished. The basis of the concept of religious supremacy in the affairs of men remains an insidious destroyer of cultures.. ours and theirs.
I'd hope that our christian culture would avoid diatribe that pits their (islam) religion against christianty, and instead stamp the menace of Islamic Jihad out from the platform of crimes against mankind rather than the pulpit of crimes against christianity.
Snuff 'em? You bet. Hunt 'em, tag 'em and bag 'em. For Mankind. Not Christ.
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Originally posted by straffo
Je vois pas pourquoi tu est surpris.
for the MP : you expect to much.
SEAGOON may I remeber you how Aznar didn't respected the wil of the people who have elected him and how he tried to cheat when after 11 march ?
Straffo,
My French is absolutely appalling, but isn't the actual translation closer to "I don't see why you are surprised" ? Just wanted to check to see if I'd forgotten everything about yet another language.
Anyway, thank you for the reminder. I am no expert in Spanish politics, but prior to the attack, Rajoy was leading Zapatero in all the polls by a comfortable margin. In fact, I don't believe many here in the USA or Britain thought that a victory for the Socialist Workers Party was a serious possibility prior to the bombings. Three days after the bombings, the turn-out at the polls was an unheard of 77% and Zapatero was elected. One could perhaps lay the blame on those who elected Zapatero, but ultimately it was his new governmnet who handed the victory to Al Qaeda. How difficult would it have been to have defiantly said NON to the terrorists for several months at least until the US elections to show that they couldn't get what they wanted via murder and mayhem?
Europe learned in the middle ages that the practice of paying "Dane Gelt" (paying the Vikings not to attack) actually had the reverse effect and that ultimately the only way to end Viking raiding was to make the price of such a raid too costly for them to pay. I wish we didn't have to learn the same lessons over and over and over again.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
I hold the newly elected Spanish government responsible for their decision to give the terrorists what they wanted,
The spanish government promised to bring the troops home if they were elected. They were elected, the troops came home.
You don't like it? Fine, but that's what happened.
Daniel
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Originally posted by soda72
Wasn't those guys caught by a truck driver with a cell phone at a rest stop?
I don't think the police had a clue. They were looking for some crazy white male. In the end it was a concerned citizen that put an end to their terror..
Yup, that's how they were found. And at the time the media were falling all over themselves to make sure that we didn't think there might be a connection to uh... You know uh... that peaceful thing-a-ma-jig.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Anyway, thank you for the reminder. I am no expert in Spanish politics, but prior to the attack, Rajoy was leading Zapatero in all the polls by a comfortable margin. In fact, I don't believe many here in the USA or Britain thought that a victory for the Socialist Workers Party was a serious possibility prior to the bombings. Three days after the bombings, the turn-out at the polls was an unheard of 77% and Zapatero was elected. One could perhaps lay the blame on those who elected Zapatero, but ultimately it was his new governmnet who handed the victory to Al Qaeda. How difficult would it have been to have defiantly said NON to the terrorists for several months at least until the US elections to show that they couldn't get what they wanted via murder and mayhem?
I sincerely believe that if Aznar and co. had had the balls to say, the minute they had the certainty: "yes, gentlemen, the bombs are from Al Qaeda" instead of playing the "perhaps it was ETA" until after the elections, they would have been reelected. Actually, there's not a doubt in my mind about that.
They were afraid it would negatively affect their chances of victory. What do you know, it was the other way around.
Imagine Tony Blair telling the press that, disregarding all the clear evidence pointing to islamic extremism, there's a fair chance the attacks are from IRA. It's all the same that the explosives, the modus operandi, the target, point to Al Qaeda. It's the IRA, I tell you. Right before election day.
And more evidence is unveiled pointing even more clearly towards Al Qaeda. Would you feel cheated? Many people did here.
Daniel
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
The spanish government promised to bring the troops home if they were elected. They were elected, the troops came home.
You don't like it? Fine, but that's what happened.
Daniel
Daniel,
Al Qaeda was quite aware of the Socialist Workers party platform, that's why they timed thier attacks when they did. Aznar was standing for the right thing in difficult circumstances, the terrorists wanted him and his successor out. The Socialists should have at least held up their decision for a few months.
Are you seriously going to argue that Spain didn't cave-in to terrorists and that it wasn't an encouragement to take the same tack with other European nations?
What I do and don't personally like is pretty much immaterial, but if it comes down to it, I personally don't believe we should do a single thing Al-Qaeda demands - ever. If we were planning to do it before, then the fact that they demand it, should be enough reason to change our minds.
Look, I suppose being frustrated over the continuing situation is making me more polemical than I should be, and for that I'm sorry. It's quite possible I should take a breather.
- SEAGOON
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my dad works for stagecoach busses and since stagecoach have pissed these muslim thugs off they keep hitting them... very worrying
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RE. the grouping all muslims in the same terrorist boat. The Times carried a full page statement today on behalf of a great number of UK muslim groups from all over the country stating their abhorance at the attacks of two weeks ago and their anguish that these attacks had been carried out in the name of Islaam.
While I'm sure it is no sympathy to individuals or family members caught up in the 7/7 bombings it really seems that there could be some good come out of this whole situation as the majority of UK based muslims look inward at what on earth could have caused an individual born in the UK to carry out these attacks in the name of their own religion which seems so far away from their own sense of values.
Insha'Allah
Gatso
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A quick req. Anyone have the todays Times still? I read the page and remember there being a web address on it somewhere, something like
http://www.islamforpeace.org.uk
can someone post it, I'd like to have a look.
Ta
Gatso
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Straffo,
My French is absolutely appalling, but isn't the actual translation closer to "I don't see why you are surprised" ? Just wanted to check to see if I'd forgotten everything about yet another language.
You're right the translation is not really accurate,albeit pretty similar.
But both show what I had in mind at the time I wrote the original message and the edition of the message.
Anyway see Daniel's posts above they are pretty much in phase with my thought.
(I just read your last post)
You really think that the spaniard who fought the ETA during the last 30 year have stopped fighting al Queida after the bombing ?
I thing you are mistaken.
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See Rule #4, #6
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Hmmmmm
Not all Muslims are terrorists.....
But I'm pretty sure that all the terrorists have been muslims.
Strange how that works.
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Originally posted by gatso
RE. the grouping all muslims in the same terrorist boat. The Times carried a full page statement today on behalf of a great number of UK muslim groups from all over the country stating their abhorance at the attacks of two weeks ago and their anguish that these attacks had been carried out in the name of Islaam.
While I'm sure it is no sympathy to individuals or family members caught up in the 7/7 bombings it really seems that there could be some good come out of this whole situation as the majority of UK based muslims look inward at what on earth could have caused an individual born in the UK to carry out these attacks in the name of their own religion which seems so far away from their own sense of values.
Insha'Allah
Gatso
i said "muslim thugs" i didnt say "muslims". Muslims and muslim thugs/terrorists are NOT the same. True Muslims are peace loving people just like everyone else.
It is NOT racist to say that blacks cause more gun crime in UK. It is a FACT. it is not racist to discribe someone as asian orign, it is PART of a discription.
Im SICK of the PC gang saying we cant say things like this. the "free" world has gone so PC its DOING DAMAGE itself. (PC = policitally correct).
and to be fair, we did the same with the IRA... back when we was getting hit hard we was TOLD to be extra carefull of irish types being lookout for strange things.
For instance my mums boss was on a underground train into work wednesday (21st). A "typical muslim" got on with a rucksack on his back. He sat down.... after a few minutes he started to PRAY on the train.... needless to say everyone left that carrage at the next stop lol...
then the extra funny thing is another one of my mums mates at work is a DJ in his spare time... he writes some good music. So he had a big box of his LP's etc standing at the station a few days ago.... Everyone being extra carefull around him for his muslim look.
Do you think he took offence? No, he laughed about it like the rest of us when he told them.....
edit: all the terrorists on the 7/7 was muslim. all the terrorists today was muslim. all the terrorists in 911 was muslim. all the terrorist in madrid was muslim... is that racist?
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Originally posted by Eagler
first step would be rounding up all brit islamic leaders preaching hate and the destruction of England and her allies ... and deporting them asap
at the same time those with the same message in America should be put on the same boat...
which should accidently hit an ice burge and not have enough life boats.......... :aok
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maybe we could create a new islamic state.. for all islamic fundamentalists to practice their faith... we could put them in canada? nothing useful there, just trees and mountains, let them live in stone age bliss...
then nuke it.
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Originally posted by Overlag
i said "muslim thugs" i didnt say "muslims". Muslims and muslim thugs/terrorists are NOT the same. True Muslims are peace loving people just like everyone else.
It is NOT racist to say that blacks cause more gun crime in UK. It is a FACT. it is not racist to discribe someone as asian orign, it is PART of a discription.
Im SICK of the PC gang saying we cant say things like this. the "free" world has gone so PC its DOING DAMAGE itself. (PC = policitally correct).
and to be fair, we did the same with the IRA... back when we was getting hit hard we was TOLD to be extra carefull of irish types being lookout for strange things.
For instance my mums boss was on a underground train into work wednesday (21st). A "typical muslim" got on with a rucksack on his back. He sat down.... after a few minutes he started to PRAY on the train.... needless to say everyone left that carrage at the next stop lol...
then the extra funny thing is another one of my mums mates at work is a DJ in his spare time... he writes some good music. So he had a big box of his LP's etc standing at the station a few days ago.... Everyone being extra carefull around him for his muslim look.
Do you think he took offence? No, he laughed about it like the rest of us when he told them.....
edit: all the terrorists on the 7/7 was muslim. all the terrorists today was muslim. all the terrorists in 911 was muslim. all the terrorist in madrid was muslim... is that racist?
Wel Said IMO.
wouldn't you like to just ONCE here the politicians say something into the camera to the terrorists like....
We are going to hunt you down like the POS Dogs you are. ANd when we find you we are not going to even give you a chance at a trail We are going to kill you with no questions asked and let you rot.
Just ONCE I wish someone had the nuts to say something along these lines instead of wussy footing around.
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Originally posted by RedTop
Wel Said IMO.
wouldn't you like to just ONCE here the politicians say something into the camera to the terrorists like....
We are going to hunt you down like the POS Dogs you are. ANd when we find you we are not going to even give you a chance at a trail We are going to kill you with no questions asked and let you rot.
Just ONCE I wish someone had the nuts to say something along these lines instead of wussy footing around.
nope because he would be voted out of office........
Dictatorships are so much better for getting rid of trouble makers
I bet iraq had very little looting and trouble under Saddam... Why? because if they did anything wrong they LOST parts of there body. Is that a bad thing? well yes... but also no... it teaches people that if you do something wrong, you will PAY for it. And dont get me started on Hitler or lets say stalin....
However here, in the "free world" if you do something wrong, you might get a fine... and "dont do it again", or in extreme cases you go to prison... however you will get let out for "good behavour" after less than half your term. What message does this give out? Oh its ok to do bad, we will forgive you.
Freedom taken far too far really.
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by Eagler
at the same time those with the same message in America should be put on the same boat...
Damn straight! Don't let anything like the Constitution stop you.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Damn straight! Don't let anything like the Constitution stop you.
I belive it was confirmed that most of these guys lived here in the U.S.. Constitution did alot to protect them as well. Funny how this all works. We protect the very ones that end up doing the most harm.
Isn't it a great place where you can move to a country , roam freely , and learn to do bad things and kill many people. Then when your caught here we give you a lawyer and a trial. Make sure your not treated in a bad way so the ACLU won't be mad.
You just can't beat being a terrorist in America.....if you live through your attack.
AMERICAN AIRLINES #77
BOEING 757
1) Khalid Almihdhar - Possible Saudi national
-Possible resident of San Diego, California, and New York
-Alias: Sannan Al-Makki; Khalid Bin Muhammad; 'Addallah Al-Mihdhar; Khalid Mohammad Al-Saqaf
2) Majed Moqed - Possible Saudi national
-Alias: Majed M.GH Moqed; Majed Moqed, Majed Mashaan Moqed
3) Nawaf Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national
-Alias: Nawaf Al-Hazmi; Nawaf Al Hazmi; Nawaf M.S. Al Hazmi
4) Salem Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national
-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey
5) Hani Hanjour -
-Possible resident of Phoenix, Arizona, and San Diego, California
-Alias: Hani Saleh Hanjour; Hani Saleh; Hani Hanjour, Hani Saleh H. Hanjour
AMERICAN AIRLINES #11
BOEING 767
1) Satam M.A. Al Suqami- Possible Saudi national
-Dates of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known address: United Arab Emirates
2) Waleed M. Alshehri - Possible Saudi national
-Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974; January 1, 1976; March 3, 1976; July 8, 1977; December 20, 1978; May 11, 1979; November 5, 1979
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Orlando, Florida; Daytona Beach, Florida
-Believed to be a pilot
3) Wail M. Alshehri
-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Newton, Massachusetts
-Believed to be a pilot
4) Mohamed Atta - Possible Egyptian national
-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Coral Springs, Florida; Hamburg, Germany
-Believed to be a pilot
-Alias: Mehan Atta; Mohammad El Amir; Muhammad Atta; Mohamed El Sayed; Mohamed Elsayed; Muhammad Muhammad Al Amir Awag Al Sayyid Atta; Muhammad Muhammad Al-Amir Awad Al Sayad
5) Abdulaziz Alomari - Possible Saudi national
-Dates of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28, 1979
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida
-Believed to be a pilot
UNITED AIRLINES #175
BOEING 767
1) Marwan Al-Shehhi
-Date of birth used: May 9, 1978
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida
-Believed to be a pilot
-Alias: Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Al-Shehi; Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Lakrab Al-Shihhi; Abu Abdullah
2) Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad
-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Fayez Ahmad; Banihammad Fayez Abu Dhabi Banihammad; Fayez Rashid Ahmed; Banihammad Fayez; Rasid Ahmed Hassen Alqadi; Abu Dhabi Banihammad
Ahmed Fayez; Faez Ahmed
3) Ahmed Alghamdi
-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey; San Diego, California
-Alias: Ahmed Salah Alghamdi
4) Hamza Alghamdi
-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Hamza Al-Ghamdi; Hamza Ghamdi; Hamzah Alghamdi;
Hamza Alghamdi Saleh
5) Mohand Alshehri
-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Mohammed Alshehhi; Mohamd Alshehri; Mohald Alshehri
UNITED AIRLINES #93
BOEING 757
1) Saeed Alghamdi
-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Abdul Rahman Saed Alghamdi; Ali S Alghamdi; Al- Gamdi; Saad M.S. Al Ghamdi; Sadda Al Ghamdi; Saheed Al-Ghamdi; Seed Al Ghamdi
2) Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi - Possible Saudi national
-Date of birth used: October 11, 1980
-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Ahmed Alhaznawi
3) Ahmed Alnami
-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Ali Ahmed Alnami; Ahmed A. Al-Nami; Ahmed Al- Nawi
4) Ziad Samir Jarrah
-Believed to be a pilot
-Alias: Zaid Jarrahi; Zaid Samr Jarrah; Ziad S. Jarrah; Ziad Jarrah Jarrat, Ziad Samir Jarrahi
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The Spanish who insisted on holding their goverment to their wishes by exercising the democratic right to vote made the london bombings happen?
That is a strange take.
I would say that the catlyst for these attacks were the UK elections that returned Blair to power and condoned the British participation in the invasion of Iraq.
A very scarry developement as we have many pakistani decent canadians as well. When we do something they dont like but the majority of our people do will they start bombing us? If our next deployment to Afganistan leads to a few dozen taliban casualites will they excercise their allah given right to martyr them selves on the sky train in Vancouver?
I would imagine it could happen very easily.
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fact is, stopping people hijack planes and using them as missles is pretty easy. pre 911, every trip i went on id go upto the flight deck to have alittle view. post 911 they look at you as if your mad.
however defending against the "normal public person" turning into a "suicide bomber" is not... how can you stop this? you cant... its impossible.
you just better hope you run out of extremists before we run out of freedom loving people......... :( and some how i dont think thats going to happen.
the ammount of terrorist cells operating in, lets say the USA could probably do a london style attack every week for a year......our open borders letting these guys flood in is the problem....its total madness
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Overlag,
The U.S. is not any different when it comes to borders. Nothing will change though. Not even when we get popped again.
Sad really.
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Hi Pongo,
Originally posted by Pongo
The Spanish who insisted on holding their goverment to their wishes by exercising the democratic right to vote made the london bombings happen?
That is a strange take.
I would say that the catlyst for these attacks were the UK elections that returned Blair to power and condoned the British participation in the invasion of Iraq.
How then was "Iraq" the catalyst for the WTC bombing or the Bali Bombing, when both of these occurred before the invasion of Iraq? I know we would dearly love to believe that if we simply tucked tail and ran from Iraq, the nightmare of Islamic terrorism would disappear, but experience has taught us that this would produce nothing of the sort, in the same way that giving Czechoslovakia to Herr Hitler did not produce "peace in our time."
Worth reading on this subject, and I would strongly encourage everyone to at least read it, is the commentary of Amir Taheri in the (London) Times the day after the 7/7. Taheri is an Iranian exile journalist who has written extensively on the subject of Islamic terrorism. His book "Holy Terror" is a great starting point for understanding the worldview of the Jihadists.
And this is why they did it
Amir Taheri
There is no way to reason with the terrorists, but the thinking behind their actions is perfectly clear
THE FIRST QUESTION that comes to mind is: what took them so long? The answer may be that in the past four years the British authorities have succeeded in preventing attacks on a number of occasions. David Blunkett, who was then Home Secretary, was often mocked for suggesting that this was the case.
It may take some time before the full identity of the attackers is established. But the ideology that motivates them, the networks that sustain them and the groups that finance them are all too well known.
Moments after yesterday’s attacks my telephone was buzzing with requests for interviews with one recurring question: but what do they want? That reminded me of Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film-maker, who was shot by an Islamist assassin on his way to work in Amsterdam last November. According to witnesses, Van Gogh begged for mercy and tried to reason with his assailant. “Surely we can discuss this,” he kept saying as the shots kept coming. “Let us talk it over.”
Van Gogh, who had angered Islamists with his documentary about the mistreatment of women in Islam, was reacting like BBC reporters did yesterday, assuming that the man who was killing him may have some reasonable demands which could be discussed in a calm, democratic atmosphere.
But sorry, old chaps, you are dealing with an enemy that does not want anything specific, and cannot be talked back into reason through anger management or round-table discussions. Or, rather, this enemy does want something specific: to take full control of your lives, dictate every single move you make round the clock and, if you dare resist, he will feel it his divine duty to kill you.
The ideological soil in which alQaeda, and the many groups using its brand name, grow was described by one of its original masterminds, the Pakistani Abul-Ala al-Maudoodi more than 40 years ago. It goes something like this: when God created mankind He made all their bodily needs and movements subject to inescapable biological rules but decided to leave their spiritual, social and political needs and movements largely subject to their will. Soon, however, it became clear that Man cannot run his affairs the way God wants. So God started sending prophets to warn man and try to goad him on to the right path. A total of 128,000 prophets were sent, including Moses and Jesus. They all failed. Finally, God sent Muhammad as the last of His prophets and the bearer of His ultimate message, Islam. With the advent of Islam all previous religions were “abrogated” (mansukh), and their followers regarded as “infidel” (kuffar). The aim of all good Muslims, therefore, is to convert humanity to Islam, which regulates Man’s spiritual, economic, political and social moves to the last detail.
But what if non-Muslims refuse to take the right path? Here answers diverge. Some believe that the answer is dialogue and argument until followers of the “abrogated faiths” recognise their error and agree to be saved by converting to Islam. This is the view of most of the imams preaching in the mosques in the West. But others, including Osama bin Laden, a disciple of al-Maudoodi, believe that the Western-dominated world is too mired in corruption to hear any argument, and must be shocked into conversion through spectacular ghazavat (raids) of the kind we saw in New York and Washington in 2001, in Madrid last year, and now in London.
That yesterday’s attack was intended as a ghazava was confirmed in a statement by the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organisation in Europe, an Islamist group that claimed responsibility for yesterday’s atrocity. It said “We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid (ghazava) in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.” Those who carry out these missions are the ghazis, the highest of all Islamic distinctions just below that of the shahid or martyr. A ghazi who also becomes a shahid will be doubly meritorious.
There are many Muslims who believe that the idea that all other faiths have been “abrogated” and that the whole of mankind should be united under the banner of Islam must be dropped as a dangerous anachronism. But to the Islamist those Muslims who think like that are themselves regarded as lapsed, and deserving of death.
It is, of course, possible, as many in the West love to do, to ignore the strategic goal of the Islamists altogether and focus only on their tactical goals. These goals are well known and include driving the “Cross-worshippers” (Christian powers) out of the Muslim world, wiping Israel off the map of the Middle East, and replacing the governments of all Muslim countries with truly Islamic regimes like the one created by Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and by the Taleban in Afghanistan.
How to achieve those objectives has been the subject of much debate in Islamist circles throughout the world, including in London, since 9/11. Bin Laden has consistently argued in favour of further ghazavat inside the West. He firmly believes that the West is too cowardly to fight back and, if terrorised in a big way, will do “what it must do”. That view was strengthened last year when al-Qaeda changed the Spanish Government with its deadly attack in Madrid. At the time bin Laden used his “Madrid victory” to call on other European countries to distance themselves from the United States or face similar “punishment”.
Bin Laden’s view has been challenged by his supposed No 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who insists that the Islamists should first win the war inside several vulnerable Muslim countries, notably Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Until yesterday it seemed that al-Zawahiri was winning the argument, especially by heating things up in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yesterday, the bin Laden doctrine struck back in London.
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- SEAGOON
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Off Topic Question:
Overlag, I noticed that your location is Essex and your last name is Webb. My last name is Webb and my family is from Essex (Dagenham, Rainham mostly). I was born in Rochford myself. I'm just wondering if we might be distantly related? ;)
- SEAGOON
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The more I think about this the more I become convinced that what europe needs is the re-incarnation of Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar. perhaps America as well.
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instead we got a rummy don quixote.
go figure.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
instead we got a rummy don quixote.
go figure.
Cometh the hour, cometh the man?
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you got it.
i daresay. ;)
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Overlag, my post wasn't aimed at you directly. To be honest I agree with pretty much everything you said. I have no sympathy for any of the idiots who have anything to do with any of these events.
Maybe if you cut off the first line of my original post and start at "The Times..." it sounds like less like it is directed at you. Apologies.
However I stand by a couple of things I have said. While I'm sure the vast majority of the Muslim population in the Leeds area were horrified about the London bombings I am also sure there was a certain amount of detachment from them... Until all those houses started getting raided on their own doorsteps. Suddenly the huge implication that these actions were carried out by "their own" is going to spur some people into action and hopefully make it harder for these people to operate.
Gatso
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Originally posted by storch
I agree aznar being dumped was a function of more than just any single event, however the message sent to the terrorist is inescapable. the spaniards could have waited for a more appropriate time to depose aznar.
So they should not have followed the will of the people just to stand up to the terrorists and make a stand?
Then the terrorsists would have dictated the election more than they actually did. Dont you see that?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Off Topic Question:
Overlag, I noticed that your location is Essex and your last name is Webb. My last name is Webb and my family is from Essex (Dagenham, Rainham mostly). I was born in Rochford myself. I'm just wondering if we might be distantly related? ;)
- SEAGOON
Hornchurch here.... right next door to Dagenham and Rainham :eek:
not really sure about the webb side of the family as my dad never really goes into it. But then when your the only one left out of your family and your only in your late 40s do you really want to think about it? :(
My mum made a massive family tree, which includes some depth into my dads side. Email me (via forums) and i will reply later when i find some stuff out maybe? :)
Originally posted by gatso
Overlag, my post wasn't aimed at you directly. To be honest I agree with pretty much everything you said. I have no sympathy for any of the idiots who have anything to do with any of these events.
Gatso
I know it wasnt directly aimed at me, but i was expecting a reply to be along those lines from other people anyway, so wrote my views on it....:)
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NEWS JUST IN 22/07/05
its happening again....... suicide bomber shot dead in london.
a mosque surrounded by armed police in east london......
many underground stations and lines closed
edit: update, the mosque is "probably" getting defended as its been a target. Bomb threats against it.
2nd edit:
Police have been given orders to shoot to kill if they believe someone is about to detonate a bomb.
:eek:
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"firearms division"
strange to think any cop would be unarmed..
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We don't have cops, we have policemen/women;)
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by mora
See Rule #5
LOL! I never argued against arming the police. They are armed in all the other European countries I've been to. (Not sure about the Garda in Ireland) But what's this - suspect shot dead? I can't remember anyone ever being shot dead by the police before in Britain.
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Originally posted by beet1e
LOL! I never argued against arming the police. They are armed in all the other European countries I've been to. (Not sure about the Garda in Ireland) But what's this - suspect shot dead? I can't remember anyone ever being shot dead by the police before in Britain.
Not armed in Norway. They have a weapon locked up inside their car tho, and when instructed they will get issued MP5's or sniper rifles at the station if the situation requires it. (armed robbery, hostage situation or if lazs has been sighted ;) )
They do not carry guns when om foot patrol.
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Originally posted by beet1e
LOL! I never argued against arming the police. They are armed in all the other European countries I've been to. (Not sure about the Garda in Ireland) But what's this - suspect shot dead? I can't remember anyone ever being shot dead by the police before in Britain.
maybe he was shot by one of his armed colleagues?
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"normal" police units in the UK are unarmed. It allows more police on the streets with less training. And guncrime isnt THAT bad in uk. Any guncrime is bad but....its not widespread in uk.
armed response units are there to back up "normal" police in these cases.
however i do wish that police did have guns. This way very few would be at risk, and few kids/thugs would take the piss.
the ammount of times ive seen US police videos where the guy is running off and they shoot him in the leg or something to stop him getting away.
here in the UK they have to run after them and risk there lifes from stabbings.
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Originally posted by RedTop
Wel Said IMO.
wouldn't you like to just ONCE here the politicians say something into the camera to the terrorists like....
We are going to hunt you down like the POS Dogs you are. ANd when we find you we are not going to even give you a chance at a trail We are going to kill you with no questions asked and let you rot.
Just ONCE I wish someone had the nuts to say something along these lines instead of wussy footing around.
Redtop,
I believe Bush's speech after 9/11 fits the bill for what you are talking about. Instead of being appreciated for the sentiments you just posted he's vilified. Go figure why no one wants to come out and sound tough.
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Originally posted by RedTop
I belive it was confirmed that most of these guys lived here in the U.S.. Constitution did alot to protect them as well. Funny how this all works. We protect the very ones that end up doing the most harm.
Isn't it a great place where you can move to a country , roam freely , and learn to do bad things and kill many people. Then when your caught here we give you a lawyer and a trial. Make sure your not treated in a bad way so the ACLU won't be mad.
You just can't beat being a terrorist in America.....if you live through your attack.
BLAH BLAH STATS BLAH BLAH
Freedom isn't free. The cost to all of us is that someone may abuse it.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Freedom isn't free. The cost to all of us is that someone may abuse it.
And the other cost is how when some try not to let it happen....they become the enemey. While I understand what you say.....I personally am sick of hearing about hiding behind a piece pf paper.
I'm tired of hearing about bad peoples rights.
Sick of hearing about racial profiling.
Sick of the whole friggin MESS.
Kill em all. No trials...no BC ACLU...Torture to get the info if needed...and throw em out with the trash.
Sometimes you have to get to a level...to level the playing field.
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In other words, you're okay with the U.S. resorting to the same methods we're supposedly fighting to stop?
Atrocity begets atrocity. I'm not sure we can win this so-called war on terror, but I'm certain we can't win if we stoop to the methods of our enemies. We're better than that.
We have to be.
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Originally posted by Sandman
In other words, you're okay with the U.S. resorting to the same methods we're supposedly fighting to stop?
Atrocity begets atrocity. I'm not sure we can win this so-called war on terror, but I'm certain we can't win if we stoop to the methods of our enemies. We're better than that.
We have to be.
Sandman,
You may find this hard to believe but I agree with you for the most part. I sincerely believe that we should not be doing evil in the hopes that good might come of it.
However, I also believe its time we started treating what we started acting as though we are in a war in our treatment of terrorists caught overseas, and begin treating them in exactly the same manner that we treated the "Werewolves" in Germany after the Second World War - Capture them, try them via military tribunals, and if they are found guilty of terrorist activity, execute them via firing squad. This was the methodology the US employed in Germany, and are we really willing to say that Roosevelt, Marshall, and Truman were committing atrocities?
As it is, our current methodology is placing our soldiers in an impossible situation, and our citizens in grave peril.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Sandman,
This was the methodology the US employed in Germany, and are we really willing to say that Roosevelt, Marshall, and Truman were committing atrocities?
We shouldn't bring up WWII. Firebombing Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, etc. was by definition terrorism. ;) (not to mention dropping a couple of nukes on civilians).
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Torture for information is not reliable. Pharmacology is far more reliable and doesn't imply barbarism as long as it is extremely limited such as in a terrorism situation.
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Hi All,
The following is from the (London) Times. Three things mentioned in the article interested me, but did not amaze me.
1) One of the London Bombers, Shehzad Tanweer, discussed his "mission" with relatives, before the attack. They of course told no one.
2) His relatives are pleased with his actions
3) The Media is unquestionably getting Westerners killed with their self-destructive desire to portray every response the West makes to terrorism as a "war crime." Would it have killed Newsweek to sit on the then unconfirmed and now heavily repudiated story of "Quran Desecrations?" Heck, it never bothered Newsweek that Muslim governments regularly destroy bibles that they discover in the country.
4) 2000 villagers turned out to pray for the martyred Tanweer. Apparently the Pakistani version of "home town hero" is slightly different than one might hope.
Cousin listened to boasts about suicide mission
By Daniel McGrory, and Zahid Hussain in Islamabad
ON HIS last visit to relatives in Pakistan this year, one of the London bombers, Shehzad Tanweer, boasted of wanting to die in a revenge attack over the way Muslims are treated.
While his family in Leeds had no idea about his suicide mission, Tanweer confessed to his cousin his ambition to become a “holy warrior”. At his father’s home village 30 miles from Faisalabad, Mohammad Saleem described yesterday how Tanweer, 22, hero-worshipped Osama bin Laden.
Mr Saleem supported his cousin’s bombing at Aldgate station which killed seven people, saying: “Whatever he has done, if he has done it, then he has done right.” He recalled how Tanweer argued with family and friends about the need for violent retaliation over US abuse of Muslim prisoners in Guantanamo Bay.
Tanweer was no stranger to the village of Chak No 477, where his grandfather and several cousins live. During his last trip, the college dropout was visited by another of the bombers, Mohammad Sidique Khan. They are said to have met a known al-Qaeda activist who has since been jailed for bombing a church. “Whenever he would listen about sufferings of Muslims he would become very emotional and sentimental,” Mr Saleem said. “He was a good Muslim . . . he also wished to take part in jihad and lay down his life.
“He knew that excesses are being done to Muslims. Incidents like desecration of the Koran have always been in his mind.”
His uncle, Tahir Pervaiz, told the Pakistani daily Dawn: “Osama bin Laden was Shehzad’s ideal and he used to discuss the man with his cousins and friends in the village.”
After Tanweer’s death, more than 2,000 villagers turned out to pray for him.
A day after intelligence officials in Islamabad claimed to have seized Haroon Rashid Aswat, the Yorkshire-born al-Qaeda veteran, Mark Lyall-Grant, the British High Commissioner, said that nobody had been arrested in Pakistan “related to the London bombings”.
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Originally posted by Sandman
We shouldn't bring up WWII. Firebombing Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, etc. was by definition terrorism. ;) (not to mention dropping a couple of nukes on civilians).
on that same notion we shouldn't call interigation techniques "torture" becuase you think it hurts the current administration wich you have a bone with.
All it does is tie the hands of the people fighting this war. It's laughable that sleep deprevation is considered "torture" and putting panties on ones head is "abuse"
kinda puts prying one's fingernails off with needle nose plyers into a whole new catagory.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
on that same notion we shouldn't call interigation techniques "torture" becuase you think it hurts the current administration wich you have a bone with.
All it does is tie the hands of the people fighting this war. It's laughable that sleep deprevation is considered "torture" and putting panties on ones head is "abuse"
kinda puts prying one's fingernails off with needle nose plyers into a whole new catagory.
Torture? (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590) or frat hazing? hhhmmm.
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aparently the guy they shot has nothing to do with anything :( :o