Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on June 20, 2001, 08:06:00 PM
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Check it out: http://www.newmassmedia.com/nac.phtml?code=new&db=nac_fea&ref=16435 (http://www.newmassmedia.com/nac.phtml?code=new&db=nac_fea&ref=16435)
The company fined the customer $450 for exceeding the speed limit in their vehicle. They obtained the speed data via GPS and a device called AirIQ.
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When Turner signed Acme's rental agreement last October, he didn't notice the warning at the top of the contract that read: "Vehicles in excess of posted speed limit will be charged $150 fee per occurrence. All our vehicles are GPS equipped."
All I can say is, he's too stupid to read?
Its a private business, private ownership of vehicles. If the owner says "We can track your speed, don't go fast or we charge you due to the excessive wear on the automobile"..then by golly, its his business, his cars. Pay up. Too bad GPS can watch the guys speed, its RIGHT on top of the friggin' contract! :)
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Don't take into Tijuana either!! :D
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I don't know Rip, it seems to me that there can be legitimate reasons to speed (medical emergency one of them), and it is often completely unsafe to drive the posted limit. I would get run down and maybe shot if I stayed 60 on a Dallas highway.
It seems to me that the rental company just found a way to make extra bucks which I don't think is legal. Private interests can point out crimes to the authorities but don't have the power to punish the offenses ($150 fine). It's called "due process".
The rental company's board of directors probably just saw how lucrative speeding is for the DMV and wanted to cut in on their market. In any event I hope they get sued or go out of business. I've got enough people trying to run my life without Hertz getting in on the action.
-Sudz
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1984 :)
Right up there with camera's issuing tickets for running red lights. Heard they are shortening yellow lights to catch more as this is such a profitable venture for most large cities. Darn law breakers :D
Eagler
[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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Well, if its a medical emergency, they have this neat thing in America for such emergencies, 911, then a medical car is dispatched, and also contains a driver who is schooled in driving in excessive speeds.
I don't think an rental car owner sees this as a lucrative business venture, after all, they want customers to come back, and tell other customers about them...I think it has more to do with wear and tear on the automobile. I doubt nailing guys for speeding with vehicles would net more cash for the business owner than the rental of the automobile itself.
Not only did the driver cause excessive wear and tear on the vehicle, but he possibly endangered John and Jane Doe on the freeways.
It used to be that a cop had to drive right behind you to monitor your speeding, then Radar guns came along...lots made a whine about that technology too, but its now part of our lives, same goes with this new 'radar' called GPS.
Ripsnort (Who's had 0 accidents and 1 speeding ticket since he turned 18) ;)
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The speeding issue is really just a trigger for the main issue...
The tracking of your movements.
Sure its their car, but does that mean they can put a hidden camera in the car to make sure people treat it right? Its just a matter of when invasion of privacy takes over.
I'm very curious to see how this goes. What happens if telemetry devices become standard issue in vehicles... can the authorities then use that for auto ticket issuing? Will this case set precident for future decisions on the subject?
I respect the car rental's right to ensure their cars don't go over certain speeds... but that can be done without tracking the physical location of the car at all times.
AKDejaVu
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The only wrong thing about that is that a customer was charged automatically without a chance to determine if the charge is correct.
Unless automatic charge was is the contract he signed. I would not be surprised if it were - GPS systems are long tested and extremely reliable.
Techically, GPS has nothing to do with the legality of the charge - "Vehicles in excess of posted speed limit will be charged $150 fee per occurrence" was all he needed to know. They might have used undercover agents or surveilance aircraft - the method does not matter.
The charge is clearly not a punishment for a presumed crime. It is a penalty for violating the signed contract through a misuse of a vehicle.
That technology is a great idea. I wish it was installed in all rental vehicles and was optional in all vehicles to be monitred by insurance companies.
Then good drivers like me will be known and not have to share the insurance burden with bad drivers.
Right now a person under 25 years old cannot even rent a vehicle in most places because he/she is considered high risk. If such person with good record buys a car in New York, he can expect to pay around $3000/year just for liability.
Quite a few rent cars (usually less then 1-year old) that they do not care to treat well and do things in them that they would never do in their own vehicles. That does not make it safer for other motorists and costs rental companies a lot - which the rest of us ultimately have to pay through higher rental and insurance fees.
AKDejaVu: Sure its their car, but does that mean they can put a hidden camera in the car to make sure people treat it right? Its just a matter of when invasion of privacy takes over.
Sure they can. Ever saw signs "premises monitored by closed-circuit television"? As long as they inform you of it, it is quite legal. Don't sign a contract if you do not agree.
If you think people will not like it, open your own rental company that would not monitor the customers and take away their business. Of course you will have to charge huge amount to be profitable because most of your customers would be unsafe drivers the other company are happy to get rid of...
miko
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I can't agree with that RIP.... let me put you in the situation..... you are on the highway, going 55 in a 55. there is a car right next to you...and no shoulder... you see an ambulance coming up behind you. with no where else to go, you speed up to pass the car next to you, switch lanes, and let the ambulance pass........ that will be $150 please. I don't think so. besides, they said Posted speed limit..... that means if you go 56 in a 55 they can fine you.... did you know that leading cause of accidents in the US are people going too slow... you can't go the speed limit any more, you have to go with the flow of traffic.
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Sure they've got the right to do this. It's their car, and it was in the contract that he signed to rent the car. Since the warning was at the top of the rental contract, he should have payed attention to it, and asked about it. Then, when they explained to it what it was, he should have done the sensible thing...
Tell them to take their rental car and shove it, because he'd be taking his repeat business to one of their several competitors.
SOB
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Miko2D,
Was there a sign that said "speed tracked by GPS"? Would you rent a car from a company that said "actions inside of car monitored by closed circuit TV". How about use a dressing room that said "Closed circuit TV used to protect against theft"? How about a hotel room that said the same thing.
The speeding is not the issue. Its the method used to track it... and the ramifications of any court decision based on right to privacy regarding this issue.
As for your "I wish it could see how good of a driver I was" statement... I'll take that for what it is. Everyone thinks they are a good driver. Everyone else disagrees with them. Also, the assumption that keeping under the speed limit means you are a good driver is flawed to the bone. Most of the dangerous driving I see on a regular basis occurs in stop and go traffic and is done by people that <I'm sure> swear they are good safe drivers.
The whole thing has a "Big brother is watching you" feel to it. Satelite tracking of your movements legally used against you in a court of law.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by NATEDOG:
.. did you know that leading cause of accidents in the US are people going too slow... you can't go the speed limit any more, you have to go with the flow of traffic.
I'd like to see your source for that..and while we're on the subject, the leading cause of death in automobile accidents is excessive speed. Sure, you're always going to have exceptions to the rule, as your scenario shows, but in most cases, they're breaking the law, with a vehicle that is not theirs. Best situation here is what SOB said.
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Not to get too far off the main theme here but the argument that this type of monitoring will help reduce rates by the rental company (and consequently turns into savings by good people using this service) strikes me as a justification lure.
I've seen the same argument applied to the helmets for motorcycle laws (we don't want the taxpayer to pay for your funeral, these people increase the rates for everyone driving, etc) and yet we bikers saw NO decrease in rates after it was implemented.
We saw the same arguments applied to security cameras in stores (preventing shoplifting and employee theft will help the normal consumer on the cost of goods) yet even after implementation my consumer prices are the same, if not higher.
The bottom line is that companies know that the market will bear the current pricing so any profit that comes from these measures are NOT passed on to the consumer. If anyone has a different experience I'm certainly open to being corrected. However, I do think that all this talk of the "risky" people driving up the cost for "safe" consumers is just a tactic to drum up popular support for an essentially intrusive policy.
My take on it, anyway . . . <S> on a good topic.
-Sudz
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actually the very next sentence from my source said exactly that....... excessive speed is the leading cause of death.
I'm not talking about driving like a bat out of hell, but just keep up with the flow.
(http://www.3dpcgames.com/cwm/s/cwm/cwm/piss2.gif) Acme Rent-A-Car
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: NATEDOG ]
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Miko2D,
Was there a sign that said "speed tracked by GPS"?
The speeding is not the issue. Its the method used to track it...
I do not agree. If a mothod is not reliable, the court will overturn the charge. As long as it is reliable and legal, any method is as good as another.
I fail to see in the first place why they had to rely on GPS for that if they could just plug into the on-board computer or speedometer. Police cars in many areas are equiped with speed-recordeing devices for years. Would the case be different if the violations were detected by recording the speedometer?
What about the EZPass system that many renta cars are equipped with? It records the exact transaction times and can be easily ised to calculate your average speed between toll collection points.
Would you rent a car from a company that said "actions inside of car monitored by closed circuit TV".
If I intended to engage in sex or do something I would want to hide, definitely not. Otherwise - most likely not too - who knows what I am going to be doing and who can watch the tapes. And many people would not either, so the company would not install such cameras because it would hurt their business.
How about use a dressing room that said "Closed circuit TV used to protect against theft"? How about a hotel room that said the same thing.
The same - the violation of privacy is not reasonable in those cases so people would not go along with that. I bet not many people would object against a camera in their operating rooms - the cause is much better justified and the tapes are controlled better.
and the ramifications of any court decision based on right to privacy regarding this issue.
Once that guy signed a contract, he waved his rights to privacy in that respect (monitoring the position/speed of his car).
As for your "I wish it could see how good of a driver I was" statement... I'll take that for what it is. Everyone thinks they are a good driver.
I am as good a driver as any guy my age in New Jersey who has no violations and no accidents and pays $400 a year liability insurance. Since I live in New York, I have to pay around $2000.
Also, the assumption that keeping under the speed limit means you are a good driver is flawed to the bone.
How about the statistics?
Most of the dangerous driving I see on a regular basis occurs in stop and go traffic and is done by people that <I'm sure> swear they are good safe drivers.
That I believe. Most of them also believe that since they are so good, there is no danger in them greatly exeeding the speed limit.
Satelite tracking of your movements legally used against you in a court of law.
Same as your phone record, if the judge issues an order for a company to surrender such a record. Of course he need a good excuse for that.
Since no one forces you to rent a car or use a phone, it's your personal choice.
Speed limits are also a choice - not personal but collective, through the elective governments, but a choice nonetheless.
miko
[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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radar produced radar detectors, what would it take to jam the GPS gear or find its fuse in the fuse box?
Eagler
[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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man! who did I piss off? :)
During my first post to this thread I had a 5-star rating . . .
Rip? <soup nazi>No beer for you!</soup nazi>
:)
-Sudz
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5 stars for Sudz!!!
More beer please, sir!!! :D
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of course it is legal and the guy owes - doesnt make it any less seedy and filthy though.
this wasnt some 'conerned decision' this is a money making ploy plain and simple. it was thought up by some shrews sitting around a table trying to think of how they can bilk another greenback out of the unwary consumer.
they put it in small print, make the price huge, and then bank that you will break the speed limit. sure bet if you have the stomach for doing business that way......
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Sudz, I just now rated you to bring it back up! ;)
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Originally posted by mrfish:
they put it in small print, make the price huge, and then bank that you will break the speed limit. sure bet if you have the stomach for doing business that way......
Negative, they put it on TOP of the contract, first thing you would read, most likely in BOLD and large letters, to let you know that to run their auto's hard and fast costs them more money in the long run...the guy was just too stupid to figure out why it was there, in plain view, on the very first line of the contract.
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Thanks Rip & Sling :) I always knew my anti-gun, anti-death penatly, pro-welfare state, anti-kitten, pro-Affirmative Action stances would keep my rating up . . .
Uh oh, I think I've said too much ...
Back on topic, though, I would certainly support the rental company's position if they specified that a penalty would incur if the driver went 10mph over the speed limit for a specified amount of time (cumulative or in a streak) to allow for the differing safe driving conditions in different parts of the country.
That would be less intrusive and address the concerns of the company's leasing to hot rod drivers (and, subsequently, the wear and tear on the car).
After all, how much tension are you generating on the road when you're watching the speedometer more than the road ahead? $150 is pretty steep. Perhaps a beeper in the car that would sound a GENTLE warning is in order here.
Overall I can see the concerns but I feel a better solution is in order.
-Sudz
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"He's signed many contracts with Acme. That day last fall, he didn't notice the warning at the top of the contract. He provided his bank debit card and left. "
it didnt say anything about being either bold or in large font. did you see another article with a picture or something?
having just rented a car in the last month i can tell you there are a lot of things to sign and initial at the top of the page and the bottom and everywhere else on it. everyone is guilty if they dont read the contract but it doesnt mean they still arent trying to slide it past you.
if all you need to hear was that the announcement was at the top to free them from trying to deceive this guy then you have started lawyers salivating all over the country! now they will put the small print at the top of every document or surround it with other type and then when the guy complains they will say "look it was at the top" (of course it was buried in 24 other life threatening bold announcements and i was in line with 61 people behind me after a 12 hour flight but dang it was at the top so i guess i am guilty)
the guys owes and it is his fault for not scrutinizing the contract, but i still think it was a business gimmick simply because that is the way business thinks.
so you have had good experience with a car rental? i live in a place with limited parking so i rented a car almost every weekend for a year when i needed to get around before i rented a parking space- after that i was convinced there was a hell just for rental agents.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
radar produced radar detectors, what would it take to jam the GPS gear or find its fuse in the fuse box?
So they will link it into speedometer and read the violations when you check in. Even simpler.
Guys, what the company did was not ethical. They should have posted warnings and posters, may be even TV campaign - "We do not want our cars inolved in the accidents".
Nevertheless, what they did was legal.
Why don't anyone propose a legislation mandating a minimum size of a small print? And some kind of assurance that you have made customer read it?
I suggest making every customer copy the whole contract by hand and sign it or recite it aloud on videotape.
In fact make them copy and sign all printed documentation when they buy anything. Like lables on groceries including expiration date and nutritional values, or warnings on the cigarette packs. And require three copies - one for the customer, another for the seller and the third to be stored for 50 years in the government archive.
miko
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How do they know he exceeded the speed limit? Was he doing 80 in a 70 or 40 in a 30? The thing to do would be to put a govenor on the car if they don't want excessive wear and tear.
For the prices they charge for a rental, I DEMAND the right to abuse the car.
45$x365=16,425$, so in one year they recoup the price of the car, plus a hefty profit AND they sell a one year old car at a good price. Boo-fluff'n-Hoo, I feel so sorry for them.
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If I got a fine for speeding in a rental car from the company I would refuse to pay it. There is no way that a company can fine you based on GPS evidence. (I'm an electrical engineer, I do know what I'm talking about here. ;) ) I wonder if they (rental companies) realize that the Department of Defense adds a random error to the GPS used by the general public. This *may* ( and does ) cause spikes in the speed measurement as they change this. In addition when you round a corner or go up a hill the GPS tracker has no way of calculating your true speed. (Radar has this limitation as well.) This is called the cosine effect. (You are measuring the cosine of the angle with relation to whatever heading the GPS unit "thinks" you are going at the time.) Like radar, GPS units measure speed in one direction only. This means that when you round a corner your speed will decrease on the GPS unit until you straighten out again. (Postition measurements are not affected, only speed.) The same thing happens when you go up or down a hill. GPS accuracy is also effected by the number of satelites the receiver is tracking at the time. (3 needed for postion, 4 needed for altitude and postition.) Accuracy generally improves as the number of satelites being tracked increases.
As for wear on the car, that is is double sided sword. I can tell you ( my father owns his own auto repair shop ) that many of today's cars are geared to run most efficiently around 65 - 70 MPH. (My car does not even shift into overdrive until you get to 50 MPH. ) This means that wear on the engine is less at 65 Mph than at 55. Wear on the tires is greater at higher speeds though. IMO I'd say that wear on the brakes is less if you aren't tapping them all the time to stay at exactly the speed limit.
If I were in this rental car, I know what I would do - I'd put aluminum foil over the GPS receiver's antenna. :D
If I did receive a fine I would probably tell them to take me to court, because I know that I could beat them. GPS (as of today) is so horribly inaccurate (often > 250 m ) with so much potential for small errors that I could just overwhelm them with evidence. Only differential GPS (which uses a ground based transmitter in addition to the satellites - fixed position translates into a more accurate position triangulation. ) is what I would consider accurate. (<50 m)
There, I'm through venting for now. :)
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Bloom.. just playing devil's advocate... but the cornering and hills are pretty irrelivant when figuring max speed. They don't make a car appear to be going any faster.. only slower.
As for the subject... How would they know what the speed limit is? Because they know EXACTLY WHERE THE CARE IS SINCE THEY ARE TRACKING ITS EVERY MOVE. Its not just a speed feedback like they'd have with a built in monitoring system... its actually watching you... always.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by -sudz-:
Thanks Rip & Sling :) I always knew my anti-gun, anti-death penatly, pro-welfare state, anti-kitten, pro-Affirmative Action stances would keep my rating up . . .
Uh oh, I think I've said too much ...
-Sudz
Are you kidding!? Just look at my rating! If you care about the rating at all it's probably best that you don't talk about these things at all ;). Ripsnorts monster thread killed mine :).
Anyway, it's perfectly legal, but I agree with Natedog. For example, in Massachusetts we have a highway that leads into Boston called Route 2. This is a two-lane (on each side) mostly undivided highway. The posted speed limit: 55 mph. The practiced speed limit: 70-80 mph :eek:. YOu drive less than 65-70, and you are going to be in trouble from either road rage or collision. Just the way things are.
Oh, and by the way... MA drivers are about the 3rd worst in the country, I heard. Probably because of Boston driving :rolleyes:. (Those that don't know about Boston driving, roads, and traffic - believe me, you don't want to know).
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hehehe...actually Ispar, I think Sudz is a great guy, but I gave him a one star rating. Oh, and I gave the same to you too! :D
SOB
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
Check it out: [
The company fined the customer $450 for exceeding the speed limit in their vehicle. They obtained the speed data via GPS and a device called AirIQ.
I would instantly call my credit card company and tell them NOT to pay this charge due to fraud. In California, I would also file a complaint with the AG and cc it to the credit card company.
The Rental company's only recourse would be to sue you in small claims court, where they would have to prove their GPS thing is 100% correct without the benefit of an expert witness.
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Originally posted by SOB:
hehehe...actually Ispar, I think Sudz is a great guy, but I gave him a one star rating. Oh, and I gave the same to you too! :D
SOB
C'mon, that's what I'd expect from you! I think I would be worried if you gave me anything different. Still, that calls for retaliation. Five stars!
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Oh, btw SOB... you misspelled "truly" in your profile pic.
:D
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5 Stars?!? Bastard, just for that, I gave Montezuma 1 Star!
SOB
Truely, truly, whatever. I's sepll gud!
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Ha!! Take that! 5 stars for both of you bastards !! :)
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Uhm... Has this been tested in the courts yet?
Doesn't seem right...
Also... while there may be many examples that I just can't think of right now, what other private companies/services are able to fine people (not talking reimbursement of damage or anything)? Prolly lots.. I dunno... List em if you know.
How long has this practice been going on? If it hasn't hit the courts yet, it surely will soon. Not only do I think this is bad business (just plain stupid), I think it's over reaching in a legal sense (fine print my arse).
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Sounds scary..
At least I wouldn't want someone to log my movements and SAVE it to a log.
Think about that how many ways there would be to abuse that information in the log?
Of course theres good sides, but I would be more for the privacy than for the good sides.
People dies anyway, cars gets robbed and crashed.
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Imagine if they took a longer view and a group of major auto rental companies used a device such as this to record your driving habits in their car and then shared it among themselves as a basis for determining rates.
Were I a rental company, and I had the data to show that customers exceeded speed limits, I think rather than levy a fine, I'd have a different rate. Speeders would pay more for the same car. The rental company has sufficient incentive to do this. Insurance companies will no doubt reduce their rates if this were in place. It may not be fair, but it's business.
Bottom line... If you want to speed, use your own car.
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Originally posted by Montezuma:
I would instantly call my credit card company and tell them NOT to pay this charge due to fraud.
How is this fraud?
I don't necessarily agree that this is a good thing. I certainly don't like being monitored, but I don't see how this guy has a leg to stand on. He saw the contract and he signed it. Sounds legal and binding to me.
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Sand - contracts in and of themselves do not a legal and binding document make.
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No?
I'll shut up now... :confused:
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No :)
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Er.... however... it may still be a good peice of paper... I dunno... Has it been tested?
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Couple of issues here.
1. The speeding issue is rather cut and dried as far as the excessive speed is concerned. The rental car company does have a point as there is no where in the US a posted speed limit of 90 mph. That would probably be considered primae facie (sp?) evidence of speeding,. That is provided there was a "legal proof" offered atesting to the accuracy of the system. There might be a bit of a problem there depending on what proff the rental car could bring. Additional information would have to be provided about the speed limits in the area in question, although again, there is no street / highway with an approved speed limit of 90MPH.
Second issue is the charges levied. The contract may have provided adequate information and warning of the charges. The renter will have to show that there was NOT adequate notice of the clause or that it was not in his contract. Calling the bank to refuse payment is not an option here as the renter used a DEBIT card for this purchase. NOTE!!!! NEVER USE A DEBIT CARD FOR THIS!!!! The charges have ALREADY been collected from his account and now he is in the position of trying to retrieve money from the rental company. This is always harder than just refuting charges that have not been collected. He will be fighting "uphill" on this one.
This will be interesting indeed to see if the civil action of the rental company can be upheld. Please remember this is purely a CIVIL action and proof beyond a reasonable doubt is NOT the key item. Only reasonable presumption or the preponderance of the evidence will be needed to "prove" the case.
Personally I think the rental company has a good case if they limit this to speeds that are clearly not legal in the country. Now if they are going to use posted limits and fine for exceeding them they will have a hard time. Even GPS has an error radius for position. That means you could be "shown" on a road adjacent to a highway when you are actually on the highway and traveling the posted speed limit. A 50' circle of error would cause havoc with that sitation. :eek:
Mav
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
How do they know he exceeded the speed limit? Was he doing 80 in a 70 or 40 in a 30?
They did not penalise him for violating traffic laws - that is cops' job. They penalised him for exeeding a speed limit they set for their car. Probably 70mph or so.
The thing to do would be to put a govenor on the car if they don't want excessive wear and tear.
That may be dangerous and most likely illegal. Car is approved according to some standards. Any modification affecting it's operation would have to be approved too.
For the prices they charge for a rental, I DEMAND the right to abuse the car.
You can demand all you want, the air is free. Of course if you demand in writing, you would have to pay postage. ;)
45$x365=16,425$, so in one year they recoup the price of the car, plus a hefty profit AND they sell a one year old car at a good price.
So why aren't you in a rental car business reaping the profits? Lower the price a bit to still stay profitable and undercut their business.
You either cannot do it or do not bother to do it (your choice stupid or lazy :D ), so you have to rely on someone else renting you a car. And since it's their business, they set the rules.
miko
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Originally posted by Nash:
Sand - contracts in and of themselves do not a legal and binding document make.
true - but there are extremely explicit conditions to void a contract in america. it has to agree to bind someone to something illegal or bind someone to do something that is not performable. the other terms deal with age, term, consideration or arent relevant here. it would be intersting to see where the courts finally land on this one. they both have a case at least.
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Originally posted by bloom25:
There is no way that a company can fine you based on GPS evidence. (I'm an electrical engineer, I do know what I'm talking about here. ;) ) I wonder if they (rental companies) realize that the Department of Defense adds a random error to the GPS used by the general public.
That practice was discontinued for quite a while. GPS now is accurate to single digits in horisontal plane.
Besides, you do not know over which distance they average your speed. If it's 20 miles, then what do a few feet matter.
GPS accuracy is also effected by the number of satelites the receiver is tracking at the time. (3 needed for postion, 4 needed for altitude and postition.) Accuracy generally improves as the number of satelites being tracked increases.
Cheap handheld GPS unist now are all 12-channel. Enough for you, Mr. Electrical Engineer?
As for wear on the car, that is is double sided sword.
Why does it have to be only about wear? Most likely they were able to negotiate a much better insurance rates because of that equipment.
today's cars are geared to run most efficiently around 65 - 70 MPH. (My car does not even shift into overdrive until you get to 50 MPH. ) This means that wear on the engine is less at 65 Mph than at 55.
Of course not. The fuel efficiency may be less because the fuel burns more or less quickly then optimal. But you can be sure that air resistance increase proportional to the square of the speed amply comensates for any increase of fuel burning efficiensy.
That is no concern of the company anyway - you buy fuel out your own pocket.
The engine wear is determined by forces on the engine which inclrease with speed.
If I were in this rental car, I know what I would do - I'd put aluminum foil over the GPS receiver's antenna.
Would probably violate the contract and cost you $1500 ;)
miko
[ 06-22-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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Originally posted by Montezuma:
where they would have to prove their GPS thing is 100% correct without the benefit of an expert witness.
Could not be simpler. Just bring the car and check it position as reported by the system. Them move it 200 feet and check the reported position again. Since government removed the random error, GPS is accurate to within a few feet.
miko
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Could not be simpler. Just bring the car and check it position as reported by the system. Them move it 200 feet and check the reported position again. Since government removed the random error, GPS is accurate to within a few feet.
Actually, its not even remotely that easy. LASER speed detection systems have been met with some concern due to inacuracy under certain conditions. It is one of the more precise detection methods most of the time, but has trouble dealing with certain angles, colors and textures in a very small percentage of instances.
Basically.. showing it works on one car in one situation does not prove its accurate.
But then.. that's only for the speed side of things. I do believe its accurate enough to know if you are parked in the Hooter's parking lot on a buisness trip.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
But then.. that's only for the speed side of things. I do believe its accurate enough to know if you are parked in the Hooter's parking lot on a buisness trip.
AKDejaVu
That's why you park in the Burger King parking lot next to the Hooter's! ;)
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Originally posted by ispar:
Oh, and by the way... MA drivers are about the 3rd worst in the country, I heard. Probably because of Boston driving :rolleyes:. (Those that don't know about Boston driving, roads, and traffic - believe me, you don't want to know).
I agree with that!! I live in a nice little Florida town. I drove over to Louisiana, and then my friend and I flew to Boston for a little vacation. We get the rental car, and then I'm thrown out of Logan into construction, MA drivers, and MA roads! Huge driving culture shock there! Hehe, it was funny though, I just complained a few times, and I didn't have to drive anymore until we left! ;)
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Actually, its not even remotely that easy. LASER speed detection systems have been met with some concern due to inacuracy under certain conditions. It is one of the more precise detection methods most of the time, but has trouble dealing with certain angles, colors and textures in a very small percentage of instances.
Basically.. showing it works on one car in one situation does not prove its accurate.
But then.. that's only for the speed side of things. I do believe its accurate enough to know if you are parked in the Hooter's parking lot on a buisness trip.
AKDejaVu
The problem with laser is that it relies on the operator for accuracy. It measures distance and then computes speed based upon the change in distance over time. IMHO, doppler radar is far more reliable and accurate and doesn't require any proficiency from the operator.
As for GPS... it's quite accurate at determining speed. Put one in your car, you'll see. Sure, it may not be a good measure of speed taken in small samples but over a period of a few minutes, I think it can be relied upon. GPS updates every second. The accuracy is there. We use it as a TSPI source and measure radar track accuracy against it.
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Originally posted by Nifty:
I agree with that!! I live in a nice little Florida town.
Those floridians (sp?)... The cars on the highway would actually slow down or even stop to let you in from the parking lot - those bastards!!!
Spend a week driving in Florida, get used to that kind of treatment, lose your edge and you can easily get get killed once you get back to New York. :p
miko
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Has anyone here used a GPS?
You get spotty broken communication all the time. Drive along, the little dot stays in one place while you lose the signal (through a tunnel say). Then when you regain the signal the little dot leaps ahead to catch up with you. Hey look at that, you've just traveled 10 blocks in .02 seconds. Peak speed 3,450 mph. Imagine the fine they'll give you for that!!!!
How can they possibly screen out a speed spike glitch from your true speed? It is exactly like being on a bad 5000ms connection to Aces High when the software is trying predict position. Instantaneous warping all over the place, we've all seen it. The same thing happens to GPS tracking.
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Originally posted by Nifty:
I agree with that!! I live in a nice little Florida town. I drove over to Louisiana, and then my friend and I flew to Boston for a little vacation. We get the rental car, and then I'm thrown out of Logan into construction, MA drivers, and MA roads! Huge driving culture shock there! Hehe, it was funny though, I just complained a few times, and I didn't have to drive anymore until we left! ;)
Hey, I have to live here! It's a wonderful state, but in order to survive on the roads you have to ruthless! Florida sounds nice, but might breed complacency.
Sling, you bastard! 5 stars for YOU too!
And SOB, I'm not a Bastard, least not yet; think I have what it takes?
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The state's Department of Consumer Protection sided with renters against car rental company Acme Rent-a-Car, of New Haven. In an administrative complaint filed against the car rental company on Monday, the department charged Acme with violating state law when it fined drivers who exceeded the posted speed limit while driving a rental car.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5093616,00.html (http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5093616,00.html)
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Knew it :)
Thanks for the update Sand.
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Any Rental Car Company trying this on is shoveling toejam uphill with a rake.
First of, in NZ the Cops are required to meet very high standards for speed measuring equipment, including speedo's that are much more accurately calibrated. Do you think the rental car co's do this... nah!
I doubt whether GPS was used solely, more like GPS linked to the speedo. If GPS was used solely then all the technical inaccuracies in GPS would blow it for them. BTW Bloom I thought the US Military GPS-Randomizer had been removed or cut down to 5 metre accuracy?
Once again I dunno bout the US, but here we also have quite a number of PRIVATE roads. IE roads which are in back areas in farming areas. No speed limits apply to these roads. So what does the rental company do here?
Sounds like some fascist-account who drives a Honda Accord that stays 5 km/h below the speed limit decided to impose their own laws.
I say they hang the bastard!