Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on July 22, 2005, 10:40:33 PM
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Egypt hit with multiple car bombs (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163412,00.html)
And it continues to escalate. How long before the Arabs and Muslims get sick of it?
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
And it continues to escalate. How long before the Arabs and Muslims get sick of it?
That's what I'm wondering. DO these people want their countrys to starve and stay in a thrid world 20th century environment?????
Then comes the human aspect of it. Do western muslims really think they will be accepted if they don't denounce these people publicly????????
This really isn't about the west if they are attacking muslim targets now is it?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
DO these people want their countrys to starve and stay in a thrid world 20th century environment?????
Africa/South America. Same problem, only they aren't getting the same recognition because they are just killing themselves.
-SW
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Then comes the human aspect of it. Do western muslims really think they will be accepted if they don't denounce these people publicly????????
They do denouce this stuff publicly. FOX "News" just doesn't report that because it isn't what plays to FOX "News"' target audience.
UK Muslims issue bombings fatwa (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm)
Full text: Muslim leaders' declaration on bombs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4696969.stm)
From a quick search on BBC News.
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Originally posted by Karnak
They do denouce this stuff publicly. FOX "News" just doesn't report that because it isn't what plays to FOX "News"' target audience.
Actually, that's not true. I've read and seen on Fox News reports and interviews etc where Muslims denounce these acts.
I think what most of us who comment on Muslim reaction are really addressing is the fact that Muslims rarely come out and denounce such attacks like they come out AGAINST the "West" on many other issues. You DON'T see Muslim groups out in public protesting and denouncing terrorist attacks, like you DO see them out in force in public over ANY other action or statement they disagree with or other percieved slight by the "West".
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There was at least one street protest in London by Muslims against the attacks after it happened.
I also know at least one Muslim who voted for Bush in '04.
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somewhere in the back of my mind as a Christian i see the end times comming really soon.
there will be serious bloodshed on american soil in the next year i think, and it will force the "rise of power from the west"
just my thought
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Originally posted by Karnak
There were street protests in London by Muslims against the attacks after it happened.
I also know at least one Muslim who voted for Bush in '04.
I didn't mean it NEVER happens. Rather that it does not happen as often, or with groups as large. I'm hoping it will change soon.
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What I find more interesting is that given all the Western targets that are open to them they seem to be hitting fellow Muslims pretty hard.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
somewhere in the back of my mind as a Christian i see the end times comming really soon.
there will be serious bloodshed on american soil in the next year i think, and it will force the "rise of power from the west"
just my thought
They may indeed be successful in hitting the U.S. again, the freedoms we have and hold dear make it difficult to stop them.
However, I think we've moved beyond the irrational response of
some sort of massive retaliatory attack, like carpet bombing anyone. A large but quiet increase in covert actions, possibly with less regard to who gets offended. But nothing massive with brute force. assymetrical warfare is the answer these days, and the willingness to use it and keep quiet while doing it.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
That's what I'm wondering. DO these people want their countrys to starve and stay in a thrid world 20th century environment?????
Then comes the human aspect of it. Do western muslims really think they will be accepted if they don't denounce these people publicly????????
This really isn't about the west if they are attacking muslim targets now is it?
Sharm El-Sheik, which was the target of the attack is Egypt's version of "Club Med," only nicer, very expensive with lots of four star hotels and great scuba. The primary target would be European and Israeli vacationers, and initial reports indicate they killed several British, Dutch, and Israeli tourists. From the Jihadist point of view, any Muslims staying or working there, engaging in prohibited activities, viewing scantily clad Euro and Israeli women and allowing infidels to stay in Dar-El-Islam would be apostates themselves.
Destroying their own "tourism industry" is part of their objective - who wants to invite the hated infidels to visit?
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Toad
What I find more interesting is that given all the Western targets that are open to them they seem to be hitting fellow Muslims pretty hard.
I think now that they've begun to lose popular support, to some extent, in the Muslim world, they've become more desperate.
They now want to terrorize "fellow Muslims" by calling them infidels and telling them it makes them legitmate targets. They hope to force them back into line. I'm hoping it won't work, there is every reason to believe it won't work.
Also, those Muslim targets are more vulnerable. The "West" will never be really safe, because of our lifestyle, and the freedoms we demand. However, progress has been made in making attacks more difficult to execute. But the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are not nearly so well protected. Strikes against them are easier, and the terrorists hope that the victims will blame the West rather than the psychopaths that actually commit the acts.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Sharm El-Sheik, which was the target of the attack is Egypt's version of "Club Med," only nicer, very expensive with lots of four star hotels and great scuba. The primary target would be European and Israeli vacationers, and initial reports indicate they killed several British, Dutch, and Israeli tourists. From the Jihadist point of view, any Muslims staying or working there, engaging in prohibited activities, viewing scantily clad Euro and Israeli women and allowing infidels to stay in Dar-El-Islam would be apostates themselves.
Destroying their own "tourism industry" is part of their objective - who wants to invite the hated infidels to visit?
- SEAGOON
Pastor.
To me its is about acceptance as well. They want to be incluced into the 21st century but they seem to want to eliminate every outlet they have to exist there.
To me if these were people doing this in the name of Christ I'd expect every christain that I know to say HECK NO!
Yea you hear a few muslims complain about it but you dont hear their "pope of islam" denounce them. These people still have legitimacy as far as the mainstream is concerned.
Whats the point though.....they are bombing muslims in Iraq. They are doing the same at other middle east targets, and they are for sure aiming blindly in london.
It just seems stupid, they are making all the wrong moves if they want public sympothy. There is valid arguments vrs the war in Iraq but bombing civilian and even muslim targets there as well as egyptian targets???????
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They denounce it all the time. It goes like this.
" I think the bombings were terrible. No one should be killed like that. Perhaps the US will rethink its position in the Middle East and it will one day stop."
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Originally posted by FiLtH
They denounce it all the time. It goes like this.
" I think the bombings were terrible. No one should be killed like that. Perhaps the US will rethink its position in the Middle East and it will one day stop."
:aok
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Africa/South America. Same problem, only they aren't getting the same recognition because they are just killing themselves.
-SW
They might get more attention if they keep on roughing up Condie Rice. lol That woman is scary. I dont think they knew who they were messin with. Hehe.
As for the bombings in Egypt, werent they supposedly attributed to Palestinians protesting the whole Israel/Palestine thing (again)? Had nothing to do with Muslims or Iraq. At least thats what the story I read earlier today said.
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Must be all those billions US is pouring into egypt. The infidel billions of the corrupt west.
Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.
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Sharm el-Sheikh isn't expensive. It's cheap compared many places in the med.
My parents are both keen scuba divers and were there two months ago at the Shark's Bay Hilton. Our whole family is planning a holiday out there next September.
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It just seems stupid, they are making all the wrong moves if they want public sympothy. There is valid arguments vrs the war in Iraq but bombing civilian and even muslim targets there as well as egyptian targets???????
Islamic extremists have been bombing Egyptian tourist targets for many years, although they had stopped recently.
They want to replace the Egyptian government with an Islamic one, and they believe that by ruining the tourist industry on which Egypt depends they will bring down the government.
Terrorists follow the same strategy everywhere. They seek to make areas ungovernable, and that involves attacks that make the lives of the population more miserable to encourage them to rise up against the government.
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yep... gotta get the stray muslims back into the jihad fold first then you can deal with the infidels from a position of strength.
lazs
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So muslins in Britain issued a fatwa. Big fat hairy deal. When they start rounding up the suspects on their own and turn them in I'll take them seriously.
< John Wayne voice here> Saying fancy words and speeches just doesn't get it done.
A bit tongue in cheeck but it is my opinion on it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Egypt hit with multiple car bombs (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,163412,00.html)
And it continues to escalate. How long before the Arabs and Muslims get sick of it?
It will never end .
So long as man believes in the concept of Religion. It is Man made nonsense. Meant for a time long ago. the less informed embrace it, breath it, and live it because they have nothing else.
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Originally posted by Maverick
So muslins in Britain issued a fatwa. Big fat hairy deal. When they start rounding up the suspects on their own and turn them in I'll take them seriously.
I would rather they report the suspects to the police so they can be watched, and linked to other people.
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pure and simple
why do some try to figure out the "motives" of these psychos?
they hide behind their "religion" while commiting the worst of crimes against innocents.
they are rabid dogs who need to be eliminated, wiped from the face of the earth
it will just take time but the evil &hate whose head is now known as "terrorism" will fall to rightousness & love - just as many other evils in the civilized world have disappeared. but while this enlightenment takes place, we need to hunt down the dogs and put them out of their misery
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Originally posted by Eagler
they are rapid dogs who need to be eliminated, wiped from the face of the earth
You mean, like Grayhounds?
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ty sob
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Originally posted by uberhun
It will never end .
So long as man believes in the concept of Religion. It is Man made nonsense. Meant for a time long ago. the less informed embrace it, breath it, and live it because they have nothing else.
i do think the same,
to die for the believes of an religion, for this people life begins
after the death. I mean, pack a bomb in a bag and go out and
kill yourself and others. How far away from reality can someone
be? <- fighting this kind of people is very difficult and it is possible
that this will go on for a very long time.
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
i do think the same,
to die for the believes of an religion, for this people life begins
after the death. I mean, pack a bomb in a bag and go out and
kill yourself and others. How far away from reality can someone
be? <- fighting this kind of people is very difficult and it is possible
that this will go on for a very long time.
To fight them is to empower them. The key is to educate them not isolate them. When they become more educated and I dont mean (The Madrasas way either) they let go of their primitive beliefs and realize, that the concept of God is not vengfull and rightous But kind and compassionate. When they can embrace this through understanding the whole world evolves in kind.
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Well, the problem with that is that while it is a noble idea, to teach, you must be able to reason, and these people will not listen to reason.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of mass retaliation, or wiping anyone or any place out. Far from it. While being 4F myself, I have very dear friends and relatives who serve us at the risk of their lives. I'd MUCH rather have them at home, safe, as opposed to out on the line. I just don't think you'll get anywhere trying to reason with people who are willing to die in order to kill you.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Well, the problem with that is that while it is a noble idea, to teach, you must be able to reason, and these people will not listen to reason.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of mass retaliation, or wiping anyone or any place out. Far from it. While being 4F myself, I have very dear friends and relatives who serve us at the risk of their lives. I'd MUCH rather have them at home, safe, as opposed to out on the line. I just don't think you'll get anywhere trying to reason with people who are willing to die in order to kill you.
I who have not had the honor to serve my country in the armed forces. Can not speak from a stand point of experience. But being one who has studied historical conflict and have had family members who have served in Hondurus, Nicaruaga (covert) Honduras, Panama, and now Iraq. The end result is always the same needless death and suffering. You know the irony that we are all having this conversation in this forum in itself is a whole nether conversation but getting back to the point. I wish I had the abillity to convince those who believe with such conviction that their energy is misplaced and wasted. History teaches us that those who do not conform to evaloution expire from it. If the Muslims wish to make the rest of the world kneel to them. They will perish in their efforts. It is unfortunate. Because their culture based upon the teachings of the true Koran. Has so much to offer the rest of the world. The Koran teaches to be kind and compassionate to those who believe in god. I wonder how that was lost in the current interpitation of the those writings of so long ago.
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Hi Dowding,
Originally posted by Dowding
Sharm el-Sheikh isn't expensive. It's cheap compared many places in the med.
My parents are both keen scuba divers and were there two months ago at the Shark's Bay Hilton. Our whole family is planning a holiday out there next September.
Expensive is relative Dowding, while I know people who've taken their families on holiday to Sharm El Sheikh, it is well beyond the income of most Egyptians. But yes, its much cheaper than the Riviera for instance and significantly easier to get plastic explosives to.
- SEAGOON
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Hi Uberhun,
Originally posted by uberhun
It will never end .
So long as man believes in the concept of Religion. It is Man made nonsense. Meant for a time long ago. the less informed embrace it, breath it, and live it because they have nothing else.
A couple of questions from one of the less informed untermensch.
Why is it then that so many members of the Arab intelligentsia become Jihadis? Many of the pilots, bomb-makers, and suicide bombers come from wealthy families and received education well into the graduate level. For instance, Osama, who is by no means the most educated Islamic terrorist, came from a very wealthy family and has a university degree. Certainly neither he, nor most of his Leutenants "has nothing else." Many of the terrorists have spent a significant amount of time in secular Western society and only hate the west all the more.
Is it totally impossible to be educated and believe that materialist philosophies are vain and empty at best? Must one be entirely stupid to believe the truth claims of a religion?
Personally, while I happen to believe the Jihadis believe a lie, and commit acts of monstrous evil, I don't believe them to be uniformly "poor," "ignorant," or "insane."
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Toad
What I find more interesting is that given all the Western targets that are open to them they seem to be hitting fellow Muslims pretty hard.
Countries like Algeria and Egypt are basically secular which is what the fundlementalists hate. These countries have been hit hard by fundlementalist fanatics for years. In Algeria, they've wiped out entire villages.
ack-ack
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The Quran on Arabs who are not Muslims.
"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagan (Arabs). If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagan (Arabs) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
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So the zealous Muslim is led to fight against anyone else who "acts like a pagan," including those who say they are Muslims.
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The Quran on the rest of the world.
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
The passage on "no compulsion in religion"
"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
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No compulsion for "whoever rejects Islam's view of evil and believes in Islam's Allah."
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In a recent article for the National Review Online Victor Davis Hanson makes some interesting remarks about Islamist objectives and Western response.
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson072205.html (http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson072205.html)
"…Perhaps the jihadist killing was not over the West Bank or U.S. hegemony after all, but rather symptoms of a global pathology of young male Islamic radicals blaming all others for their own self-inflicted miseries, convinced that attacks on the infidel would win political concessions, restore pride, and prove to Israelis, Europeans, Americans — and about everybody else on the globe — that Middle Eastern warriors were full of confidence and pride after all… "
Regards
Cement
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Uberhun,
A couple of questions from one of the less informed untermensch.
Why is it then that so many members of the Arab intelligentsia become Jihadis? Many of the pilots, bomb-makers, and suicide bombers come from wealthy families and received education well into the graduate level. For instance, Osama, who is by no means the most educated Islamic terrorist, came from a very wealthy family and has a university degree. Certainly neither he, nor most of his Leutenants "has nothing else." Many of the terrorists have spent a significant amount of time in secular Western society and only hate the west all the more.
Is it totally impossible to be educated and believe that materialist philosophies are vain and empty at best? Must one be entirely stupid to believe the truth claims of a religion?
Personally, while I happen to believe the Jihadis believe a lie, and commit acts of monstrous evil, I don't believe them to be uniformly "poor," "ignorant," or "insane."
- SEAGOON
Hey,SEAGOON
My personal beliefs are this.
1. The Jihadis that come from well to do families are disillusioned with their percieved corupt westernized existence. (Not unalike David Koresh and his followers).
2. They embrace this belief of purity through sacrafice and message to become closer to God.
3. Any message that embraces the philosophy of conformity of will through force and brutality must be questioned.
4. All major religions do this.
5. Hence why I said earlier in this Thread that man needs to give up the concept of religion as we understand it and evolve to a higher purpose.
6. Islam tries to do that by eliminating all competion.