Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FiLtH on July 23, 2005, 01:16:07 AM
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Near where I live, we have a mountain with a road that goes to the top. Mt Washington. Last fall a friend brought his russian friend up to see the area. I wanted them to go up the mountain to see the view. It cost like 12 bucks to drive up it. She had a huge problem with this and refused to go saying it was nature and we shouldnt have to pay to go up a mountain.
I tried to explain to her the cost pays to the road maint. (which being in some of the worlds worst weather takes it toll) among other costs. She wouldnt listen. I told her she could go walk up any mountain around her for free, but if she wanted to drive up this one, thats how it was.
The discussion deteriorated into a US is so greedy type of thing. My friend said she was a sort of yuppie in Russia, and alot of them think this way. Isnt there anything is Russia similar that you have to pay for to have upkeep on things?
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Let me explain. I hope you'll understand.
Some things are free. Free for all. Like air, sea and mountains. Views included. Like music too.
Paying to some bastard who puts a bar across a road to a mountain top is... like supporting a wrong commerce. No way.
Paying to upkeep things? What? Sorry, I didn't underdtand? You mean that the money paid for riding to a mountain top will be used to maintain the road? Don't be silly, please. 99% of this money will find it's destination in a pocket of a smart-ass who blocked the road. So it goes.
I don't support such commercial enterprising. Sorry. I'll better go there on foot. If I'll pay him - next week I'll find that I have a checkpoint asking for money on my way home.
And paying for air, sea and mountains is absolutely wrong. At least 100,000,000 of sane Russians share this POV.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
She's a minority - screw her. If she has any amount of education she'd know nothing in the world is for free.
Alex, there are simply different things... sometimes...
If we'll make each other pay for everything here - we'll be extinct in 10 years, being too busy counting supposed profits. Then a next problem will be to teach Chinese to operate oil-drilling machinery and pipelines.
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I guess that's why roads in russia are few and in a perpetual state of disrepair. Which is ironic considering that it's a socialist country. Me I prefer to live where I'm not forced to share the cost of an infastructure that I don't use.
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Originally posted by Suave
I guess that's why roads in russia are few and in a perpetual state of disrepair. Which is ironic considering that it's a socialist country.
Russia isn't a socialistic country. I wish it was.
Roads inside cities are approximately the same condition as in US suburbs.
Road quality depends more on regional administration, not on money collected. In different "rayon" (district?) roads are different from "they bombed us here in 1942" to "it's not German autobahn - too many turns".
Roads are "few" because we still occupy 1/7 of land on Earth, and out of this 1/7 - 3/4 is unpopulated. Or populated by people who were not informed that their land, where they hunt and breed deers, belongs to Russian Federation. 3/4 of Russia simply don't need roads, mostly because people living there don't have a concept of a "road"
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Sorry - bad day here. Sick is listening to people ***** and complain.
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Forgot to tell this:
Please, feel free to see us as "Asian hordes of Jewish bolsheviks" or "Asian barbarians on their shaggy mounts", whatever you like more.
We don't care.
But air, sea and a view from a mountain must be ****ing free. For everyone.
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Last thought: I'd better go fix the road to the mountain top myself, to ensure that it will be free for everyone.
It's not about "communism", it's just how I see things should be. And 100,000,000 Russians think so too, I hope.
You found a perfect example of different mentality. Probably this attitude is a reason why we are so deep in the bellybutton now. But I like it and will never trade it for "good life" or anything.
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I thought taxes were paid so goverment could upkeep roads like that? Thats how it is atleast here and our weather is pretty bad too.
What Ive read is that som of the russian roads are really bad (weather takes its toll). Som of our streets would look like them but we patch the holes regulary so they stay in drivable condition.
The city streets in Russia are modern though. Atleast what Ive seen in pics.
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Roads cost money, and this particular one seems to be privately owned. Why exactly should they let anyone use the road for free, and where is the money going to come from for the upkeep of the road? And the view from the top of the mountain is free...you'll just need to hike your bellybutton up there if you don't wanna spend the money to use the road.
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Originally posted by SOB
Roads cost money, and this particular one seems to be privately owned.
Well if its a private road then its different of course. Private roads are not maintained with tax money.
In winter there is a law here that if you dont maintain your private road and somone slips on it hurting himself badly, he can sue you for it if there was no sand on the road.
The roads here are pure ice on winter so theres no taking chances. Sand must be spread everywhere and then when summer comes it must be collected back from the roads.
Costs are big but its still less expensive than fixing hundreds of broken legs and arms every winter.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Alex, there are simply different things... sometimes...
If we'll make each other pay for everything here - we'll be extinct in 10 years, being too busy counting supposed profits. Then a next problem will be to teach Chinese to operate oil-drilling machinery and pipelines.
Welcome to Capitalism 101. Find something someone else wants. Find a way to make that person pay to get what they want. Charge them as much as they can stand to pay without getting so ticked off they shoot you.
Working now for 224 years!
You see, you see nature as God's gift to all men. We Americans see nature as a source of income waiting to be exploited. Those that dont are called "tree huggers". Sometimes we shoot them. Sometimes we put them in jail. Sometimes we just tie them in a chair and make them watch Bill O'Rielly's TV show over and over again.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Welcome to Capitalism 101. Find something someone else wants. Find a way to make that person pay to get what they want. Charge them as much as they can stand to pay without getting so ticked off they shoot you.
Working now for 224 years!
You see, you see nature as God's gift to all men. We Americans see nature as a source of income waiting to be exploited. Those that dont are called "tree huggers". Sometimes we shoot them. Sometimes we put them in jail. Sometimes we just tie them in a chair and make them watch Bill O'Rielly's TV show over and over again.
Funny story,
My boss went to school up in Humbolt State, which is in northern CA, where a majority of the pot grown in the world seems to come from. His favorite past time was to "shoot a hippie." Stay with me here - he would have a high powered pellet gun. Sit on top of a roof, and the hippies would be flying down the roads on their skateboards, wearing an ungodly amount of layers for clothes. The pellets would impact them and send them careening off and into the side of the road.
Not to seem like that essentially cruel, he just didn't like the hippies that was posing. I.e. the type that sold their BMW and got a 1960's VW bug which pollutes 20 times the amount the BMW they had, yet preach "don't pollute."
Anyways - not to berate the point. Money is important - i'm not going to pretend that it is not. I have type 1 diabetes, so its a mathmatical certainty, that without money, i can't get medication,and then i'm dead in 6 months. So, thats that - and thats the system that is in place - for better or worse.
Wolf
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Isn't there any privately owned roads in Russia? Is it legal to use motor vehicles on private property? I find nothing wrong with anyone charging for the use of their own road, no matter if they charge $1 or $100,000.
In here we have "everymans rights" which guarantees the right to walk on anyone's land. It however doesn't grant the use of motor vehicles. It would be legal to walk that road, but not to use a motor vehicle on it without the owners permission, for which he may or may not charge whatever sum he wants.
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The city streets in Russia are modern though. Atleast what Ive seen in pics.
The city streets in russia are worse than baghdad after cluster bombing. Pictures won't tell you anything, I suggest you go and visit yourself.
Oh, and don't take your own car if you don't want a broken suspension, exhaust pipe or bent fenders.
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Originally posted by Zakhal
The roads here are pure ice on winter so theres no taking chances. Sand must be spread everywhere and then when summer comes it must be collected back from the roads.
Don't know where you're living in but in here I seldom need winter tires.
Anyways if road was private property (and privately funded) then the owner should have the right to collect "road tax".
However if there's also public funding for that private road, like in here they usually have, then it's different case: IMHO people have already paid about the right to use the road when paying taxes to the government.
One salamander refused to pay his share of the private road at our summerplace so we told him to use another road for taking his horses to the lake :D
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I'm a little confused, StarofAfrica2. What is the significance of the year 1781 to the origins of capitalism?
Your humble Capitalism 101 pupil am I... :)
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Originally posted by Rolex
Your humble Capitalism 101 pupil am I... :)
like yoda you sound :D
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I know of something that really,truly is for free in North America...
There is this FREE car vac next to a car wash here in Hamilton...It was modified from a coin taker to a freebee-push button...Works great and nobody cares you didn't use the car wash.
Oh and same car wash in winter,the owner has set the spray nozzle to stream hot water on standby so it don't freeze...It's enough to wash your car and rinse.
It's funny,when I hear someone say "Nothing in this world is free"...i tell them about this car wash...And I laugh when i spot them using the car vac.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Let me explain. I hope you'll understand.
Some things are free. Free for all. Like air, sea and mountains. Views included. Like music too.
Paying to some bastard who puts a bar across a road to a mountain top is... like supporting a wrong commerce. No way.
Paying to upkeep things? What? Sorry, I didn't underdtand? You mean that the money paid for riding to a mountain top will be used to maintain the road? Don't be silly, please. 99% of this money will find it's destination in a pocket of a smart-ass who blocked the road. So it goes.
I don't support such commercial enterprising. Sorry. I'll better go there on foot. If I'll pay him - next week I'll find that I have a checkpoint asking for money on my way home.
And paying for air, sea and mountains is absolutely wrong. At least 100,000,000 of sane Russians share this POV.
You DO realize Mt. Washington has the highest surface wind speed ever recorded? IIRC it was 231mph. The Observatory is also thought to have the worst weather IN THE WORLD. I can see why they charge a fee of $12. Many mountaineers (just starting out) and hikers have died on this mountain. I picture this road being beat to s**t.
While your thinking may seem valid Boroda, you should research before you slam.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Rolex
I'm a little confused, StarofAfrica2. What is the significance of the year 1781 to the origins of capitalism?
Your humble Capitalism 101 pupil am I... :)
In 1781 the US constitition ratified it was. No real connection to capitalism there is.
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boroda missed the point.. the view was free.. they charged to use the road. In russia there would be no problem since there would be no road.
Old commie russia musta been some kinda paradise with everything free and all... no wonder they had to put up walls and post guards around it to keep out all the people trying to sneak in.
How could it possibly have gone wrong?
lazs
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Originally posted by Boroda
Let me explain. I hope you'll understand.
Some things are free. Free for all. Like air, sea and mountains. Views included. Like music too.
Paying to some bastard who puts a bar across a road to a mountain top is... like supporting a wrong commerce. No way.
Paying to upkeep things? What? Sorry, I didn't underdtand? You mean that the money paid for riding to a mountain top will be used to maintain the road? Don't be silly, please. 99% of this money will find it's destination in a pocket of a smart-ass who blocked the road. So it goes.
I don't support such commercial enterprising. Sorry. I'll better go there on foot. If I'll pay him - next week I'll find that I have a checkpoint asking for money on my way home.
And paying for air, sea and mountains is absolutely wrong. At least 100,000,000 of sane Russians share this POV.
It must be hard to come from a country as vast and great as russia with all it's riches in culture and resources and not be able to access them to better the current plight of your country and peoples.
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the $12 sounds like a "User Tax" rather than a blanket tax. Whether Boroda likes it or not, he *is* paying for those roads heading to the mountains to be maintained. Its just that everyone pays for it in his country. At Mt. Washington, only USERS pay for it. Thats the perfect tax structure as far as I'm concerned. The same should apply to many taxable issues.
FWIW, most if not all our national parks charge a fee to enter them. Again, a user fee rather than the socialists dream, a blanket tax.
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Actually, when a user fee is charged at our national parks, they're getting both. And I think I read something about the user fee being legislated away...maybe that's just in Oregon.
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Originally posted by Simaril
In 1781 the US constitition ratified it was. No real connection to capitalism there is.
Not really no, I just consider the US that was created under the Constitution to be more amenable for men to get rich than the previous form of govt. Before that, interstate commerce was much more limited. A very minor point, man has been finding ways to make money off each other since we first crawled out of caves and learned the concept of bartering. I just think that the Constitution coupled with the ideals of Americans created a unique combination for the growth of Capitalism.
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Originally posted by SOB
Actually, when a user fee is charged at our national parks, they're getting both. And I think I read something about the user fee being legislated away...maybe that's just in Oregon.
no toll roads in Oregon that I'm aware of (the closest one I know of is the bridge into Washington at Hood River.)
they've started with the user fees in the nat'l forest about 10 yrs ago, but not to use the roads, only to park in lots maintained by the forestry service.
toll roads and user fees for access to nature aren't real popular here. most on the north west seems to share the Russian view on it.
the east coast seems to be numb to the outrage, what with all the turnpikes and other toll roads.
generally I head out into the forest to get away from the experience of reaching for my wallet and finding someone else's hand in my pocket. having someone out there charging money to get away from commerce really hits a nerve.
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Originally posted by Simaril
In 1781 the US constitition ratified it was. No real connection to capitalism there is.
Really? In my history book the Constitutional Convention transmitted the Constitution to Congress on September 17, 1787. What are they teaching in civics classes these days?
I beilive the road to the top of Mt. Washington is private. And you still have to pay for the bumpa sitcka to? No?
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
no toll roads in Oregon that I'm aware of (the closest one I know of is the bridge into Washington at Hood River.)
they've started with the user fees in the nat'l forest about 10 yrs ago, but not to use the roads, only to park in lots maintained by the forestry service.
Yeah, I've never seen a toll road either. I think I've driven the bridge you're talking about, but it didn't have a toll at the time. Maybe it's a different bridge, or maybe it's just that it was prolly 5 or 6 years ago.
It's the day use fees for the national forests in Oregon that I'm talking about...which is essentially just for parking, yeah...I think I read something in the Statesman Urinal about those fees going away.
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I like toll roads. the more they charge for the tolls the fewer fellow motorists on said roads. I believe they should charge per mile on every expressway/freeway and in that manner keep the beaters on the clogged county roads and out of us serious driver's way. happy motoring.
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Originally posted by jEEZY
Really? In my history book the Constitutional Convention transmitted the Constitution to Congress on September 17, 1787. What are they teaching in civics classes these days?
I beilive the road to the top of Mt. Washington is private. And you still have to pay for the bumpa sitcka to? No?
Whoops! Thanks for catching that lol. I think Simaril and I both locked on to the same wrong date. :) 1781 is when the Articles of Confederation were signed.
Guess there was still Tequila in my system this morning. I know my head felt like it had SOMETHING in there. Nice catch sir. :aok
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"Thats the perfect tax structure as far as I'm concerned. The same should apply to many taxable issues. "
I'd say it depends on the issue. In my opinion, most things involving public property shouldn't use per-use-taxation. This means parks, roads, etc. The entire point of "public" property is that it's available whether you choose to use it or not. I'm against things like gas taxes to finance roads, toll roads, or fees to enter public-owned parks.
Use-fees can work well with things which aren't "really" public in scope....say, overnight lodgings at a national park. Health care is a bit of a grey area...certainly "some" types of health care should remain per-use (cosmetic surgery).
As far as Capitalism is concerned, the US wasn't really a capitalist country until after the Civil War. Soon after, capitalism proved itself to be a rampantly greedy and destructive force when not carefully regulated (re: "robber baron" period of the late 1800's). Likewise, at the time of its creation, this country was a democracy only in the broadest sense of the word (out of 3 branches of government, only 1/2 of ONE branch was directly elected by the populace). Even today we aren't strictly a democracy.
Less government is more....and lassiez-faire capitalism is bad. I hold both statements as fact. Ironically, those statements sort of work against each other, which is why a reasonable balance between the two is necessary.
J_A_B
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As far as I know...the Observatory on top of the mountain..which not only acts as a reception area with cafeteria and restrooms, but mainly as a scientific weather study (among other sciences) center, is privately owned, non-profit and relies on donations to survive.
Im not sure how the auto road ties into it..whether the money from the road guests go toward maintaining the observatory or what.
Being an American Im used to paying for things that I want..but dont have. I can understand how someone must feel if they arent from here. It seems you are putting a tax on your eyesight...something everyone "should" be able to see freely. Which you can if you bike or walk up the mountain. It only costs you if you drive up, or are driven up in a coach. Sure they could make it free, if the guys who originally built it said.."Fine we've made enough money to cover what we put into it...lets open it up and see how it goes." In those conditions, the road would deteriorate in little time, causing it to be closed to foot traffic only.
Things cost money. Its got to come from somewhere. The old lady down the block wouldnt want to pay an extra 5 cents a year in maintaining a road she will never use. So its done this way. It seems the most fair way to me.
Heres a shot of the Mt. Washington Hotel, with Mt. Washington in the background. Imagine a road that goes to the top. Quite an undertaking. Also..the hotel you see here is the sight where the economic system we all know today was created by world leaders years ago. Apparantly they all stayed there quite a while creating the system. Early 1900s I believe.
(http://FilthysForum.homestead.com/files/mt_washington.jpg)
Also heres an addy for the road
http://www.mt-washington.com/autoroad/autorates.html
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Originally posted by Staga
Don't know where you're living in but in here I seldom need winter tires.
Thats all good for you. I live in Jyväskylä and the roads here are very slippery on winter. Notice Im not talking about car roads but the sidewalks.
Last winter I fell with a bike because part of the sidewalk didnt have any sand on it (wind had blown it away). Shattered my wrist and now have a metal plate with seven screws on it. Even then they operated me only because I was young enough. The elder people dont usually get operated even if the wrist is badly broken (thus the wrist will never heal properly). Better to have a proper insurance once you get to that age.
The local hospital here is actually quite busy during the winter months (I spent few days there after the surgery). Plenty of people with broken wrists (or legs) after slipping on the icy road.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The city streets in russia are worse than baghdad after cluster bombing. Pictures won't tell you anything, I suggest you go and visit yourself.
Oh, and don't take your own car if you don't want a broken suspension, exhaust pipe or bent fenders.
Staga here visited Russia som time ago. Atleast in these pictures the city streets dont look so bad (aka atleast the center streets of the city are pretty modern):
http://koti.mbnet.fi/staga/chel/kavelykatu_1.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/staga/chel/kavelykatu_2.jpg
http://koti.mbnet.fi/staga/chel/kavelykatu_3.jpg
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Zakhal,
why were you riding your bike on a sidewalk? As the word says, they are for walking.;)
A winter bike rider is an accident waiting to happen. You see them here and every time I pass one I hope he does not fall into the path of my vehicle. I try to give them extra room but that is not always possible as it puts me into the oncoming traffic lane.
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I bet she did not have much of problem to pay for a visa to get to the states.
There's the door sweetheart.........cya.
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Zakhal; that was ONLY road (well it was a promenade) in Chelyabinsk which was in top condition.
Most roads were bumpy as hell and they also had nasty holes where part of tarmac had come off and showed previous layer of road under it.
Even taxiways in airfields were similar; planes were veering from left to right when taxing and I could see similar holes in taxiways.
Milo; walkways in Finland are usually for both bicyclers and pedestrians, sometimes with separate lanes and sometimes not.
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Originally posted by Staga
Milo; walkways in Finland are usually for both bicyclers and pedestrians, sometimes with separate lanes and sometimes not.
We call them pathways if for multi useage(bikes, pedestrians, roller bladers, skate boarders,....). A bike rider can receive a fine if they ride on the sidewalks here, not that any do.
Off now to see if Bernie's Travelling Circus parade in Germany can make it through the first turn without a wreck of some sort or another.
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A winter bike rider is an accident waiting to happen. You see them here and every time I pass one I hope he does not fall into the path of my vehicle. I try to give them extra room but that is not always possible as it puts me into the oncoming traffic lane. [/B]
Its just that I dont have much options where I live. I would take the bus on winter but there is no direct route. Its actually faster to just walk than to take bus. And considering that walking takes 35min (and even then its very slippery to walk..major winds here make the ice so smooth) I always end up taking the bicycle which is only 10min.
I have learned my lesson though. For now I walk in winter. Just have to buy boots with nails on the bottom.
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toll roads are fine as are taxes on gasoline but....
not both. I would like to see some sort of enterprise fund set up with fuel taxes or tolls (take your pick) and then accountants manage that money for roads.
Any user fee should go into a seperate account and pay only for use.
lazs
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Originally posted by Zakhal
Its just that I dont have much options where I live. I would take the bus on winter but there is no direct route. Its actually faster to just walk than to take bus. And considering that walking takes 35min (and even then its very slippery to walk..major winds here make the ice so smooth) I always end up taking the bicycle which is only 10min.
I have learned my lesson though. For now I walk in winter. Just have to buy boots with nails on the bottom.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Zakhal,
why were you riding your bike on a sidewalk? As the word says, they are for walking.;)
A winter bike rider is an accident waiting to happen. You see them here and every time I pass one I hope he does not fall into the path of my vehicle. I try to give them extra room but that is not always possible as it puts me into the oncoming traffic lane.
Far as Im concerned they are an accident waiting to happen on the roadways any time of year. I'd much prefer them on sidewalks or in dedicated bicycle lanes and would really like to see them banished outright from the regular roadways.
Cant even begin to tell you how many of these.....people I've only narrowly avoided hitting because they have veered into the center of the lane I was driving on.
They typically have no respect for anyone else on the road cept each other and I often seen their little bicycle gangs hogging entire lanes doing 15-20 MPH on a 45 MPH road and refusing to move over to the side to let the faster traffic through.
They may have a right to use the roadways but that doesnt designate them as a legitimate roving roadblock.
Im astounded not more of them get killed
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Originally posted by SOB
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp
Just what I was looking for. a little costly though. My entire bike is cheaper (as new 28" mountain 120€) than those tires 170€. :)
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK Far as Im concerned they are an accident waiting to happen on the roadways any time of year. I'd much prefer them on sidewalks or in dedicated bicycle lanes and would really like to see them banished outright from the regular roadways.
Theres a lot of bikes here. In this student town (village?) every third person on the street is a student so only few can afford a car. No one drives on the roadways though, except in the small city centre where they are banished from teh small sidewalks (youll get a ticket if you do). Luckily cars are also not allowed to drive very fast on the city center, but still it always gives me the chillies when Im forced to compete for space with them. I always let the car go first if Im crossing the road.
My friend was "almost" crushed by a taxi som time ago. Somwhat worse my other friend was driven over by a woman driver few years back. The kids were yelling on the back and the woman was not looking forward when the pedestrian lights turned green.
By a weird chance of luck my friend got away with minor injuries only. The bike was totally trashed though.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Far as Im concerned they are an accident waiting to happen on the roadways any time of year. I'd much prefer them on sidewalks or in dedicated bicycle lanes and would really like to see them banished outright from the regular roadways.
Cant even begin to tell you how many of these.....people I've only narrowly avoided hitting because they have veered into the center of the lane I was driving on.
They typically have no respect for anyone else on the road cept each other and I often seen their little bicycle gangs hogging entire lanes doing 15-20 MPH on a 45 MPH road and refusing to move over to the side to let the faster traffic through.
They may have a right to use the roadways but that doesnt designate them as a legitimate roving roadblock.
Im astounded not more of them get killed
Totally agree Dred. Paved shoulders and roadside lanes for them are now being done but they still do there suicidal stunts. Dispite the paved shoulder they still ride the white line designating their lane.:rolleyes: Running red lights and stop signs is one of their favourites.
My other beef is with pedestrians who expect a car or truck to stop for them 'on a dime' when they step off the curb. Almost got me one in Vancouver BC a few years ago where vehicles have to give way to the pedestrians. Not so where I live.
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Originally posted by Staga
Zakhal; that was ONLY road (well it was a promenade) in Chelyabinsk which was in top condition.
Most roads were bumpy as hell and they also had nasty holes where part of tarmac had come off and showed previous layer of road under it.
Even taxiways in airfields were similar; planes were veering from left to right when taxing and I could see similar holes in taxiways.
The main problem is that temperature differences in Russia are buch bigger then in other countries. Continental climate. And the tar used in asphalt has a different quality: our oil is different from Middle Eastern, so it's much less flexible, especially in cold weather. When temperature is around freezing - sometimes the roads are destroyed in a matter of days :(
Sometimes a difference in road quality is seen on one road going from one "rayon" to another: while at one "rayon" administration steals money - in another they spend lots of money.
I was really surprised when in March we went to lake Seliger, and got literally cut off from civilisation by a severe snowfall. In Ostachkov rayon they have a bulldozers cleaning roads from snow every morning. Even a road to a god-forgotten village where we stayed...
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Originally posted by Boroda
The main problem is that temperature differences in Russia are buch bigger then in other countries. Continental climate. And the tar used in asphalt has a different quality: our oil is different from Middle Eastern, so it's much less flexible, especially in cold weather. When temperature is around freezing - sometimes the roads are destroyed in a matter of days :(
I wonder why we don't have this problem, even though we have great temperature differences too(Not as great as in some parts of Russia).
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Originally posted by mora
Isn't there any privately owned roads in Russia? Is it legal to use motor vehicles on private property? I find nothing wrong with anyone charging for the use of their own road, no matter if they charge $1 or $100,000.
Well, a "land code" was approved by Parliament about 2 years ago, but the bigger part of it about agricultural lands and other important stuff still isn't.
Before that there was absolutely no land here in private property. It was "rented" from a State, on most occasions - "for free and forever". When I start to think about it - I get sick :(
Now we have a Forest code ready, and it will mean that any bastard "privatising" a piece if forest will be able to prohibit anyone else from collecting mushrooms and so on. It's crazy IMHO. A great feature of our elected legislators is that they first do and then think, and a serious motivation in "doing" is money from bribers and lobbyists. Noone can pay enough to a brainless puppet so it will suddenly start thinking.
Originally posted by mora
In here we have "everymans rights" which guarantees the right to walk on anyone's land. It however doesn't grant the use of motor vehicles. It would be legal to walk that road, but not to use a motor vehicle on it without the owners permission, for which he may or may not charge whatever sum he wants.
We have some roads where you should pay for crossing a turnpike, but not a private turnpike. And sometimes you have to pay for parking, but it is absolutely illegal. "Strictness of Russian laws is compensated by the fact that it's not obligatory to follow them" and it applies to authorities as well as ordinary citizens.
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Originally posted by Boroda
The main problem is that temperature differences in Russia are buch bigger then in other countries. Continental climate. And the tar used in asphalt has a different quality: our oil is different from Middle Eastern, so it's much less flexible, especially in cold weather. When temperature is around freezing - sometimes the roads are destroyed in a matter of days :(
Well now I know what we do with the russian oil we import:mad:
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
You DO realize Mt. Washington has the highest surface wind speed ever recorded? IIRC it was 231mph. The Observatory is also thought to have the worst weather IN THE WORLD. I can see why they charge a fee of $12. Many mountaineers (just starting out) and hikers have died on this mountain. I picture this road being beat to s**t.
While your thinking may seem valid Boroda, you should research before you slam.
Karaya
It changes the situation, but how does public rescue service, hiking route control authorities and other stuff for people travelling on foot apply to drivers? If the road is dangerous - simply close a turnpike in emergency weather conditions. If it's beaten to **** - then I suppose they still are collecting a sum enough to repair it? It's the fact that it's beaten that protects the place from hordes of dummies, not a turnpike and a booth with a cashier.
I have a strange attitude for roads to sightseeing places in the mountains. When I see another beautiful place where you need to go on foot 100+km through taiga - I imagine a paved road there, with beer caps covering the ground, "Vasya was here" written on cliffs around, beer booths, shashlyk stands and photographers with a camel, monkey and a moth-eaten dummy of a bear. No, thanks, please.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have a strange attitude for roads to sightseeing places in the mountains. When I see another beautiful place where you need to go on foot 100+km through taiga - I imagine a paved road there, with beer caps covering the ground, "Vasya was here" written on cliffs around, beer booths, shashlyk stands and photographers with a camel, monkey and a moth-eaten dummy of a bear. No, thanks, please.
I don't understand what in the hell you're talking about here, but I think it's fabulous!
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Originally posted by SOB
I don't understand what in the hell you're talking about here, but I think it's fabulous!
Example: a Ritsa lake in Caucasus, 100km from the shore into the mountains. It's a naturally one of the most beautifull places in USSR West of Urals. It became a mandatory place to visit for any person coming to Sochi for a vacation. 100s of buses full of fat sweating vacationeers, all the grass turned into mud, groud covered with broken glass, and beach photographers who take a picture of a visitor, his fat mother-in law, brainless wife, and kids sitting on a camel, so they'll have a proof that they visited Ritsa lake.
Every time I find another beautiful place, like (the place that impressed me even more then Grand Caucasus) Guitar lake at the bottom of Cherski Peak at Baikal ridge, I imagine this hordes of idiots and photographers with a camel, monkey and a bear dummy. And some idiot writing "I was here" or "DMB-2006" or "Vasya loves Lena" on virgin rocks. And no chance to jump from a cliff in +40C heat into a +5C cold water naked. :(
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Pavel :)
Tell us how you truely feel :) Its funny, because I can repeat verbatem the exact same thing that happens over here, except they're guys from New York city heading out towards the eastern end of Long Island and jamming the 2 lane Montauk Highway for 6 hours. Ahhh...people...social animals.
Thats how I made a killing in the summers, 20 minute flight from Bridgeport to East Hamton, 200 bux a head - no sweat.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Boroda
Example: a Ritsa lake in Caucasus, 100km from the shore into the mountains. It's a naturally one of the most beautifull places in USSR West of Urals. It became a mandatory place to visit for any person coming to Sochi for a vacation. 100s of buses full of fat sweating vacationeers, all the grass turned into mud, groud covered with broken glass, and beach photographers who take a picture of a visitor, his fat mother-in law, brainless wife, and kids sitting on a camel, so they'll have a proof that they visited Ritsa lake.
Every time I find another beautiful place, like (the place that impressed me even more then Grand Caucasus) Guitar lake at the bottom of Cherski Peak at Baikal ridge, I imagine this hordes of idiots and photographers with a camel, monkey and a bear dummy. And some idiot writing "I was here" or "DMB-2006" or "Vasya loves Lena" on virgin rocks. And no chance to jump from a cliff in +40C heat into a +5C cold water naked. :(
and if your parks and recreation depts charged to maintain that area it would still be somewhat preistine and not over run by the hordes of fat mother-in-laws
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Pavel :)
Tell us how you truely feel :) Its funny, because I can repeat verbatem the exact same thing that happens over here, except they're guys from New York city heading out towards the eastern end of Long Island and jamming the 2 lane Montauk Highway for 6 hours. Ahhh...people...social animals.
Thats how I made a killing in the summers, 20 minute flight from Bridgeport to East Hamton, 200 bux a head - no sweat.
Wolf
We call 'em 'long island lemmings'. I stay the hell away from eastern long island friday thru sunday.
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Every time I find another beautiful place, like (the place that impressed me even more then Grand Caucasus) Guitar lake at the bottom of Cherski Peak at Baikal ridge, I imagine this hordes of idiots and photographers with a camel, monkey and a bear dummy. And some idiot writing "I was here" or "DMB-2006" or "Vasya loves Lena" on virgin rocks. And no chance to jump from a cliff in +40C heat into a +5C cold water naked.
There are always a few jerks who try that stuff..but most folks who come here really enjoy and respect the scenary. Back in the 1970s I remember alot of graffiti and vandalism. Now it seems people are more respectful.
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A few days ago I did a guided tour of this area that has (so the guide said) the highest concentration of pictographs and petroglyphs in North America (indians carving on rocks, basically).
You could barely see it for all the graffity etched into the rock since then. In some cases it ran right over top of them.
It was all the "Jane loves Bill" variety, but the dates ran from 1908 and stopped at around 1956. It was then that the park became some kind of protected area.
What I took away from that was two things:
a) It aint just the young punks doing graffity - it's been done since;
b) .... hundreds of years ago when the Indians first started doing it. :)
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Originally posted by Zakhal
Just what I was looking for. a little costly though. My entire bike is cheaper (as new 28" mountain 120€) than those tires 170€. :)
when I was a kid we used a trick for riding motorcycles on frozen lakes that should work for bicycle's as well.
we just took an old tire and put sheet-metal screws through them from the inside out. sheet-metal screws have a wider thread than wood-screws and aren't as likely to be pushed back into the tire to give you a flat. longer screws for more traction, shorter ones for a smoother ride, try a few and find the length that works for you.
then just cut the inside strip out of an old inner-tube (leaving only the outer part and sidewalls) and put it over your good inner-tube to protect it from being pinched by the screws)
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Originally posted by mora
I wonder why we don't have this problem, even though we have great temperature differences too(Not as great as in some parts of Russia).
Here you are. Hardiness Zone Map for Europe.
(http://www.gardenweb.com/graphics/zones/hzefull.gif)
It looks like even Helsinki is in a beter position than St.Peterburg thanks to Gulf Stream.
(http://www.gardenweb.com/graphics/zones/hze2.gif)