Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gatt on July 26, 2005, 04:41:36 AM
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Back from a long break from AH2 I've found the usual MA full of zombies-kamikazes. Ok, it is their money so they game the game the way they want.
What I'd like not to see are heavies like the B-24s or Lancasters able to dive bomb like P-47s. This simply encourages dweebish and unhistorical playing style. It remember me those old "death stars" parked on the rwy acting like ack-ack .... :rolleyes:
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Maybe a diveangle restriction would help. I.e., block the internal bombracks when exceeding a preset angle. This could be a setting somewhere in the arena settings.
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Originally posted by Keiler
Maybe a diveangle restriction would help. I.e., block the internal bombracks when exceeding a preset angle. This could be a setting somewhere in the arena settings.
Well not for all a/c with bomb bays: The JU88 was designed to be able to dive bomb, and mossies and a20s often used shallow diving attacks.
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Of course excepting those ;) should have made myself clearer. Was talking about those aircraft specifically designed to bomb level. :)
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Obviously, I was talking about heavy level bombers with deep bomb bays :). With such bays even a shallow dive bombing should be impossible.
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Originally posted by gatt
Obviously, I was talking about heavy level bombers with deep bomb bays :). With such bays even a shallow dive bombing should be impossible.
That is part of the problem with the Lanc. Even if they model bomb collisions with the dropping aircraft it will only stop the B-17 and B-24 (I don't know about the B-26), but the Lanc has a very shallow, long bomb bay and would scarcely be affected.
What I'd like to see is a tag on those bombers that are strictly level bombers, such as the Lanc, B-17, B-24, B-26 and Boston that disables bomb drops from the cockpit, forcing the use of the bombardier's position, which just so happens to turn on autolevel.
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Good idea Karnak :)
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Originally posted by Pei
Well not for all a/c with bomb bays: The JU88 was designed to be able to dive bomb, and mossies and a20s often used shallow diving attacks.
Don't forget the IL-2! :D
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I hate those sorta bombers too.
I guess Im one of those odd bomber guys that gets to a good, safe alt (say 15k or so), fly in, drop and exit. I see a lot of guys upping buffs simply to go in NOE or do the dive bomb thing.
I dont think disabling the bomb drop is the solution tho. Sure, its an annoyance, but once you start limiting how the bombers can drop, where do you stop? Most of the arena is anti bomber. Bombers, with their payload, make an impact, for better or for worse.
Your best defense is to shoot the guys down so their efforts do not yield a reward.
That's why I go in with alt. 9/10s of the fighters out there wont bother to climb and engage me. That's usually all that keeps my Lancs alive since they are so easy to knock down.
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Eh LePaul,
actually this game-ish thing is exploited even by bombers with enuff altitude. Have you ever slowly got enuff altitude and a good position to attack with your fighter .... just to see the dweeb level bomber dive on to the field at 45deg angle and 350mph+ speed to avoid you and destroy as much possible field/town as he can?
Yes, maybe the arena is partially anti bomber but AH2's bombers can actually afford maneuvers that real fully loaded heavy level bombers probably never did. Like chandelles and 50-70deg break turns. Yes, yes I know the corkscrew Lanc's manuever. But such things should be allowed only to single bombers (and perhaps not loaded with bombs?).
So, HTC should limit hard maneuvers (you should at least break the vic formation and definitely lose your two other fellow bombers) and limit the dive bomb angle for heavies.
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I hear your pain. I truly do.
I also think the ammo bunkers should be hardened. In the "old days" people would pork fuel down to 25% all over the place. Now the new thing is for some typhoon to swoop in, strafe out all the ordinance and auger.
But truth is, its just a handful gaming the game.
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I love those crazy buff kamikazies!
They save me bullets and give me free kills!
Whatever they crash into will be back up shortly anyway.
Dive bomb those babies all you want!
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Originally posted by LePaul
Your best defense is to shoot the guys down so their efforts do not yield a reward.
And just think how many times you'll have to shoot them down before they stop trying. Besides, they'll move to another base and do the same thing. Unless you want to volunteer your entire AH gaming time to beating off the lamers... :rolleyes: :D
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You have only to try and cap a base under attack.
You'll see the usual kamikaze hordes of P-47, P-38, F4U and P-51 crashing into the radar and acks seconds after releasing bombs and rockets.
Then you'll see bombers coming between 5K and 15K. They do (maybe) one pass level-bombing and then dive-bomb and crash into the field/city.
It is almost impossible to cap in this situation. They dive at 400-500mph, they dont care to pull up from the dive so its impossible to chase them.
Many field attacks soon turn into a quake-fest ....
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What about having a death penalty time out after dying when you were hit by no rounds fired by an opposing player?
That way if you pork a base by suicide you get a nice 5 or 10 minute break between each flight, even if the AA hits you. But if even one .303 fired by an opposing player hits you you can reup immediately.
What effect would that have on the gameplay I wonder?
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Forget that.. what they need to do is quadrupple field ack. Take away single 20mm emplacements and add batteries of sandbags inside the same pad. Thus instead of 1 gun you have 4, all firing at the same target. And increase their rate of fire.
The sandbags mean that if a plane makes a cannon attack at one gun, and hits it, the other guns are not touched. Meanwhile, to MAKE said attack you have to brave 4 separate guns all shooting at you. A small bomb will take them all out... A rocket might take 1-2 out. But intensify the hail of gunfire from a field (at least at low-level).
In real life an entire SQUADRON of tempests made a super-fast low-level attack at a LW airfield. Only 2 made it out alive, and one of those was so damaged it crashed shortly afterward.
The dinky "Kindergarten" ack we have is the reason people dive lever bombers. There's nothing to deter them. Basically they can get away with it. So just make them DIE much faster and they'll stop.
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Boy ... the strateegerist aren't gonna like you Krusty.
Just think what that would do to "milkrunnin'" as we know it.
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That is an idea Krusty.
It'd make ack running a huge issue though.
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Gonna hurt the score whoring vulch lovers more than it hurts the 'strateegerist'.
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So in short, code the program so you dont have to take damage, intercept those pesky bombers, etc etc?
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A heavy in a sharp dive at 350+ just shouldn't be able to pull out. It wouldn't stop the dive bombing necessarily, but loss of control would make it very difficult to adjust course to aim for a target or survive.
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A heavy in a sharp dive at 350+ just shouldn't be able to pull out. It wouldn't stop the dive bombing necessarily, but loss of control would make it very difficult to adjust course to aim for a target or survive.
We wouldn't call them "suicidal buffers" if they intended to survive in the first place, pell.
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Anyways, a beefed up ack defense won't be bad initially. For one thing, it would push the fight away from the field.
But the lame side is gonna be unbearable. Just thinking about all those ack-huggers makes my head spin.
I say stick to the "limit bomb drops to bombardier position" idea.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Forget that.. what they need to do is quadrupple field ack. Take away single 20mm emplacements and add batteries of sandbags inside the same pad. Thus instead of 1 gun you have 4, all firing at the same target. And increase their rate of fire.
The sandbags mean that if a plane makes a cannon attack at one gun, and hits it, the other guns are not touched. Meanwhile, to MAKE said attack you have to brave 4 separate guns all shooting at you. A small bomb will take them all out... A rocket might take 1-2 out. But intensify the hail of gunfire from a field (at least at low-level).
In real life an entire SQUADRON of tempests made a super-fast low-level attack at a LW airfield. Only 2 made it out alive, and one of those was so damaged it crashed shortly afterward.
The dinky "Kindergarten" ack we have is the reason people dive lever bombers. There's nothing to deter them. Basically they can get away with it. So just make them DIE much faster and they'll stop.
Rodger that! I'm either spending time in the tower waiting for the VH or the ack to come up or jumping from base to base trying to find a VH up. The FH are up all over. The VH is the primary target. Not the FH.If the ack does come up it lasts about 20 seconds. If you do manage to shoot a plane down, they are back in less that 10 minutes fully loaded. The bombers don't have much to fear especially without air cover. V Bases often go wanting for air and only have one manned ack. How many times does an Ack or Osti Land 5 or more kills? Even with twenty fighters and three flights of bombers circleing on the deck?
Zazen not included :D
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Originally posted by Kweassa
We wouldn't call them "suicidal buffers" if they intended to survive in the first place, pell.
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Anyways, a beefed up ack defense won't be bad initially. For one thing, it would push the fight away from the field.
But the lame side is gonna be unbearable. Just thinking about all those ack-huggers makes my head spin.
I say stick to the "limit bomb drops to bombardier position" idea.
More severe loss of control at high speeds would destroy their ability to make accurate drops, as well as hinder survival. If someone wants to dive in and suicide dive over and over without ever hitting a target then they don't bother me so much. It's the ones who suicide maybe twice and have the field hangers all disabled that get on my nerves.
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If you are worried about Dive bombing Lancs and bombers, you should worry more about how you are flying. I find low level bombers easy pickens. Sounds like shoddy base defense if a set of low level lancs gets through. You ought to be ashamed.
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You dive on the low level ones and the next wave commin in at 20k is well out of reach.
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Originally posted by Raider179
If you are worried about Dive bombing Lancs and bombers, you should worry more about how you are flying. I find low level bombers easy pickens. Sounds like shoddy base defense if a set of low level lancs gets through. You ought to be ashamed.
Do yourself a favour and read better above posts, eh? What is dweebish is the multiple kamikaze divebombing with level bombers. You CANT stop three Lancasters suicide-diving from, say, 10K to the ground. Maybe one of them.
The problem is that they dont want to survive. Medium and low level bomber raids dont worry me, take a look at my STATS if you want to know if I love engaging bombers in any situation.
"Shoddy base defence. You ought to be ashamed"? LOL :lol, wait!, you are probably one of them! :rofl
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Originally posted by gatt
Do yourself a favour and read better above posts, eh? What is dweebish is the multiple kamikaze divebombing with level bombers. You CANT stop three Lancasters suicide-diving from, say, 10K to the ground. Maybe one of them.
The problem is that they dont want to survive. Medium and low level bomber raids dont worry me, take a look at my STATS if you want to know if I love engaging bombers in any situation.
"Shoddy base defence. You ought to be ashamed"? LOL :lol, wait!, you are probably one of them! :rofl
favor not favour
read better above posts should be read the above posts better, eh?
do everyone a favor and check your spelling and grammer it hurts my eyes.
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Originally posted by Raider179
favor not favour
do everyone a favor and check your spelling and grammer it hurts my eyes.
yeah, how dare he type in real english.
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BTW, the word is spelled G-R-A-M-M-A-R.
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BTW, the word is spelled G-R-A-M-M-A-R.
Oh hubson, that was beautiful! :D
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hehe :)
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Oh I see, Its like defense and defence. Live and learn:)
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Yes, judging from your arguments, you should be one of those suicide-dweebs, definitely :D ;)
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I like to fly Buff a lot but I have never dive bombed.
As some one who fly's them a lot I think the following would be a good solution
1- You can only drop eggs from the bombardiers position
2- When in the bombardiers position your guns are on AI
Why the AI guns when you are calibrating, cause that is when you are most vulnerable to attack
Additionally I would like to change back to the old system where you had to calibrate properly OR at least give the option to use manual calibration with a perk point bonus
Also the only Ack which poses a real threat is CV ack
Later
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I think whatever the real plane could do, it should do the same here. So, there are planes built as level bombers that later were used for some amount of bombing at angles (like the A-20). I suspect most bombers could come in at angles and still get bombs out of their racks. B-25's might have done some amount of that, too. I don't think A-20's or B-25's did vertical dive-bomb runs.
Regardless of any detail of how bombs are dropped, a real Lancaster probably could have been quite capable of going into a fast, steep dive and suiciding itself and its bomb load into some ground target and destroying it.
If there's some aspect to behavior in the arena that people don't think is right or don't enjoy, the way to solve it is to remove the motivation for people to do it, not by objectively changing plane performance. Don't want people to suicide their aircraft? Make the disparity between points when you die and points when you live much larger.
My view is that people suiciding their aircraft into ground targets are much easier to combat and that their efforts are much less effective than higher-altitude level bombing. Diving to target in a bomber is a desperation move that can result in some destruction before the desperate pilot crashes or is shot down. None of these level bombers handle well at speed or handle well in divebombing. Yes, you can take out a building or a close group of buildings. If instead you come in at 15k and do a good bomb run, you can take out separate buildings of your choice (like all the fighter hangers) and still have a chance at shooting down enemy fighters trying to take you out.
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Regardless of any detail of how bombs are dropped, a real Lancaster probably could have been quite capable of going into a fast, steep dive and suiciding itself and its bomb load into some ground target and destroying it.
Ofcourse.
But that's techincal feasibility, not reality. Those two are different.
In reality, no matter how possible it is, buffs and their pilots don't fly like that because they don't want to die.
In the MA "points" are hardly of anyone's concern. People who really DO fly for points, do not fly buffs in this manner -- as a matter of fact they hardly even fly buffs at all. The wreckless buff flying is usually performed by amateuers unskilled in the game, or experienced veterans who has an immediate need to kill something.
Whichever is at the cockpit, the motive is always the same - to destroy the target, as fast as possible, no matter what the cost. And since this is but a game and nobody really dies... the cost is practically free.
So how do you demotivate someone when all the real-life penalizing factors are not included in the game? Bad rep... reprimandation... courtmarshall... death... etc etc....?
You can't demotivate someone in this case. You just stop them.
My view is that people suiciding their aircraft into ground targets are much easier to combat and that their efforts are much less effective than higher-altitude level bombing.
This is where you are wrong.
It's actually more effective. That's why people do it more. Oh, the accuracy or the survivability suffers alright - but the problem is time.
When you fly for 30 minutes, grab alt, bomb a base, return home... in that same time a sucidal buff guy can go kill FHs or VHs in four fields, re-upping each time they die. It's a time efficient method, compared to grabbing a buff to 15k.
Why should they climb to 15k when they can come in NOE at some angles, make it to the base and spray bombs and kill an intended target? It's not like they care about surviving in buffs anyway.
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Limiting the bomb drop command to the bombardier's position(F6) only, is a great solution. Obviously, this solves the problem of dive bombing heavies. But it also addresses the low alt buff problem.
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Usually, calibration at low altitudes is much more difficult. Because they are flying low, they don't have a clear line of sight to the intended target. It could be visually obscured by another building in front of it.. by a hill or a mountain.. and etc.
Therefore, people usually bomb from the cockpit, or at external view mode. They simply line up to the target, pitch the nose down slightly, a shallow dive, and then drop when they are flying overhead.
However, if the bomb drop is limited to the bombardier's seat; they have to steer the buff and make minute adjustments from that position. Like mentioned, calibration itself is difficult at low altitudes, so the difficulty of bombing itself, rises.
If they wish to drop bombs without calibration, it would still be possible. However, since they have to look out from the buff with the bombing scope, it would be farely difficult to drop bombs accurately while flying straight and the accuract would suffer greatly.
Also, being restricted to the bombardier's seat forces the plane to fly level - which will deny the buffs a sudden "burst of speed" they fancy when they dive-bomb stuff currently. They can't maneuver and bomb at the same time.
This will make it much easier for low flying fighters to intercept nearby bombers, and deterr the success rate of low alt buffing to great levels.
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As I recall in AW when you went over the max rated speed of the aircraft, your wings departed the fuselage. This along with the bomb release from the bombadier position only would stop all the nonsense.
:aok
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Yep, that's a good point about people not caring about score. You are right -- people suiciding bombers probably don't care much about that, and so may suggestion of altering points is wouldn't do anything as you say.
I do think it's much easier to stop people coming in low, though. That along with the fact that divebombing in a bomber not suited to it means you kill fewer targets makes it less of a threat than flying a bomber a more realistic way. Yes, a low-alt suicide bomber can make more runs than the guy at 15k, but he needs more runs to kill as many things as doing it once the more conventional way.
I guess it just doesn't bother me in the game. I see much more damage done by the folks who fly the bombers more conventionally. The low-alt suicide guys are more of a fun target than an annoyance to me.
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Originally posted by Alky
As I recall in AW when you went over the max rated speed of the aircraft, your wings departed the fuselage. This along with the bomb release from the bombadier position only would stop all the nonsense.
:aok
Actually, the AW 'cure' for buffs flying 'unrealistically' was to make the wings fall off with a roll that exceeded 15 degrees.
I do know HT's stance on this...he provides a reasonably realistic model, how the players chose to use it is not his fault and he does his best to avoid unrealistic modeling solutions.
The problem isn't the game model, it's the player model. Look for ways effective to alter the users of the model and not the model itself.
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The problem isn't the game model, it's the player model. Look for ways effective to alter the users of the model and not the model itself.
That's like saying;
"If everybody becomes a good person, the world would be a peaceful place"
Basically, it's a religious (and IMO naive) approach to social problems which often does nothing more than agravate the situation worse and worse.
No amount of "education" is gonna cure people in how they act. People take the course of action which they think is most effective - and in the MA where efficiency is over everything, a "short-cut" style of approach to the game will always prevail.
Grabbing alt takes too long. The targets are not really worth flying at 25k in bombers. Basically most everyone uses the buffs not as bombers, but overbloated jabos.
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Which is really more important?
Technical feasibility, or reality?
The modelling of the plane itself does not have to change. However, if a certain implementation to the bombing sequence will help solve the problem by discouraging such foolish acts, then that's a helluva lot better than what we have currently.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
The problem isn't the game model, it's the player model. Look for ways effective to alter the users of the model and not the model itself.
Agreed. but in the case of the Lancs and the 17's While it may have been tecnically possible for these planes to do it. how many of these planes had the bombs get dropped by the pilot?
Typically it was the bombadier who dropped the bombs and I dont think he had a whole lot of control over the pitch of the aircraft.
the obvious solution would be for bombs to only be dropped by the bombadier or from the bombadiers position at which point the plane would go on auto level.
I have no problem with NOE sorties its the 17's and lancs that come diving in at rediculous angles as though they were some sort of massive Stuka.
On that front its become absolutely absurd the way they are used in the game
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Just for info Lancs were used at low alt. Dambusters anyone?
Actualy I think the buffs are under used. You only ever see a few groups of three now and again. Id like to see an incentive to up em en masse. Now that would be a sight. Big buff formations flying over tgts with fighter escorts, all good stuff. Make the towns or cities more of a difficult tgt. At the moment Hvy fighters are mainly used with the odd buff formation. Make base capture a buff job.
Also why not allow buffs to disable bases by cratering the runways.
All this would make the game far more strategic and involving than the mad furball it is at the moment!
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The problem is not low alt raids like the Dambuster one; actually those guys have guts to come at 5K over a field under attack with CAP and La7 taking off like flies from cr*p. The problem are low level raids that quickly turn into suicide dive bombing runs or, worst, that are so planned from the beginning.
Have you ever capped a field? Some of them are specialized zombies (they take off, run low, dive bomb and crash for 2-3-4 times in a row). Some others come in high with 400mph+ fully loaded Typhoons, P-51s and P-38s, dive bomb and crash into cities, towns and radars. Time after time. Have you ever chased one of them from 15K to the ground, losing your precious alt?
I know this is a game but HTC should minimize every "gaming the game" possibility.
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Could it be that those low alt raids are only ending up as suicide runs because after bombing the buff pilot gets ganged by fightersand shot out of the sky. Bet they are not all intentional suicide runs, speaking from experience. buffs need escorts as the real heroes of WW2 learned at high cost.
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Just for info Lancs were used at low alt. Dambusters anyone?
And how many such irregular sorties were made, compared to the more conventional use of bombers?
Actualy I think the buffs are under used.
They are misused, not underused.
I'd like to see an incentive to up em en masse. Now that would be a sight. Big buff formations flying over tgts with fighter escorts, all good stuff. Make the towns or cities more of a difficult tgt. At the moment Hvy fighters are mainly used with the odd buff formation. Make base capture a buff job.
Why would anyone want to take the painstaking process of organizing a large buff mission, complete with escorts, when the target they hit would probably reup even before they return home?
Hitting field related objects is just not the answer. No amount of field objects, or no matter what the size of the town - it still will not bring people into buffs, or much less make them fly buffs like buffs.
Also why not allow buffs to disable bases by cratering the runways.
Because that sucks.
All this would make the game far more strategic and involving than the mad furball it is at the moment!
People like mad furballs.
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Could it be that those low alt raids are only ending up as suicide runs because after bombing the buff pilot gets ganged by fightersand shot out of the sky. Bet they are not all intentional suicide runs, speaking from experience. buffs need escorts as the real heroes of WW2 learned at high cost.
They may not be intentional in that the pilot sure wouldn't want to be shot down.
But they are intentional in that they know the odds of surviving a bombing mission at that alt is practically zero - and yet it they do it anyway.
Buffs need escorts? They need alt before they need escorts.
No fighter pilot is going to waste time and take foolish risks, following around a loser flying at 3k in a buff, who will probably die anyways.
They're not worth the escort.
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why not just make it so that bombs explode when they hit planes (including the one that dropped em?) also they would explode if they hit other bombs while in flight so that zero-G salvos would result in tragedy for the historically inacurate buff missuseres.
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Maybe put a down-time for suicides - say 5-10 minutes. Once you auger into the ground, you can not re-up for 5-10 minutes.
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How would the game know that you augered on purpose?
What if you fell out of the sky by accident?
I say lose some points per death. Maybe a couple perks too.
All this suicide stuff would come to a complete stop then.
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It wouldn't know if you augered on purpose but.. You don't just "fall out of the sky" by accident. You either get shot down, or you aren't paying attention to your friggin altitude - Its one or the other.
Also... I suggested this a long time ago. Perk the formation bombers. 5 perks for 1 extra bomber, and 10 perks for 2 extra bombers.
This should keep down the amount of damage done by these kamakaze men.
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No need to perk them, as has been suggested MANY times, make dropping eggs on the appropriate models ONLY available in the bombadiers view (F6).
EASY aint it.
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Hhhmmmm
The "dive bombing" bombers {17's,Lanc's,B26's & 24's} threads sure comes up a lot
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Originally posted by Kev367th
No need to perk them, as has been suggested MANY times, make dropping eggs on the appropriate models ONLY available in the bombadiers view (F6).
EASY aint it.
This is the best suggestion I've heard and makes the most sense.
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Agreed, allow bombing from bombadiers position only in the planes that couldn't dive bomb.
OR, rip the darned wings off of a diving bomber that didn't have that ability. That will stop it very quickly.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
... make dropping eggs on the appropriate models ONLY available in the bombadiers view (F6)
What Alky and Kev said. IMO, the best solution.
Hitech, do you thing this is something that could be implemented in the near future?
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Originally posted by NHawk
Agreed, allow bombing from bombadiers position only in the planes that couldn't dive bomb.
OR, rip the darned wings off of a diving bomber that didn't have that ability. That will stop it very quickly.
The dropping only from bombadiers pos suggestion has been around for quite a while.
Dont think they will insitute the wings ripping beyond what its already set at as I seem to remember a thread where HT said something to the effect that the aircraft were capable of such manuvers unless someone could prove that wrong he wouldnt change it.
I think the real question and arguement should possibly be with the dropping bombs from the bombadiers pos.
I'm not 100% positive but Im pretty sure the pilot didnt have the ability to drop bombs from his position and if he did I think it can be easily argued that he didnt have a bombsite and thus even if he did have that ability to drop bombs he couldnt do so with anything even remotely resembling any kind of reasonable expectation of accuracy.
Here, some of these guys do it with pinpoint precision
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
The dropping only from bombadiers pos suggestion has been around for quite a while.
Dont think they will insitute the wings ripping beyond what its already set at as I seem to remember a thread where HT said something to the effect that the aircraft were capable of such manuvers unless someone could prove that wrong he wouldnt change it.....
The lancaster was able to dive to it's target at a limit of about 360mph. However, to the best of my knowledge bombs were not able to be dropped from the pilot position.
Just about any maneuver is able to be done with any plane. Heck a 747 can to a loop. But, that doesn't mean you'll ever see one do it. At least not intentionally. :)
The wings ripping off was just something I tossed out there. While not realistic, it would stop the practice.
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Originally posted by NHawk
The lancaster was able to dive to it's target at a limit of about 360mph. However, to the best of my knowledge bombs were not able to be dropped from the pilot position.
Then perhaps it should be asked at what angle. and how much control did the bombadier have in the pitch of the aircraft.
And how fast the aircraft would reach that redline speed at a given pitch.
I would imagine that nosing a plane down while looking through a bombsite would be very disorienting and care would have to be givin so that he didnt drive the plane into the ground.
Course he we have a few that do do it intentionally
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Most bombers can be evade some attacks
with some maneuvers. Ok, a loop is not
a part of that.
A few bombers original used as dive
bombers. The Ju88 is a example for that.
Only the bomber tactic in WW2 with mass
attacks or night bomber single strikes
doesn't allow the dive attack. It is the
defender who send out patrols to detect
buffs on their approch.
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Originally posted by Loddar
Most bombers can be evade some attacks
with some maneuvers. Ok, a loop is not
a part of that.
A few bombers original used as dive
bombers. The Ju88 is a example for that.
Only the bomber tactic in WW2 with mass
attacks or night bomber single strikes
doesn't allow the dive attack. It is the
defender who send out patrols to detect
buffs on their approch.
I dont think anyone has a problem with all the bombers diving. only the heavies. 17's,Lancs.
Could they dive? to a certain extent. yes.
Did they? Rarely. But then in all likelyhood not anywhere near the angles they do in the game.