Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Boroda on July 26, 2005, 10:52:01 AM
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http://news.ft.com/cms/s/9fb1e632-fd30-11d9-b224-00000e2511c8.html
Or they again blame Russia for their utter failure?...
Israeli and Russian security forces were among those who advised UK police, before the British force revised its rules of engagement with suspected suicide bombers.
The Russian authorities, meanwhile, have also sought advice from their Israeli counterparts. Russia has suffered several high-profile terrorist attacks involving suicide bombers, notably the siege of the Dubrovka theatre in 2002 and the school hostage drama in Beslan last year.
Suicide bombers have also struck at the Moscow metro and a hotel in the Russian capital.
Mr Wilkinson said the response of the Russian authorities had been one of “unhesitating” and “draconian, massive response”.
Looks like they still blame Russia for "excessive violence" at the same time using Russian experience as an excuse for an accient with a Brazilan guy. A perfect example of a "quo licet jovi, non licet bovi" double standard.
/*I hope I'll not be "rule#16'd" for using well-known Latin expressions*/
I can only say that I can't imagine Moscow militia shooting someone at the case like Stockwell accident. At least I hope they'll never shoot in a subway.
I think that de Menezes behaved absloutely stupidly, but still... Here noone shoots at women in black Moslim clothes in a subway, even when they behave like suicide bombers - they try to evacuate them, maybe because our militia knows about "dead hand" detonators.
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Yer point is?
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Originally posted by Boroda
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/9fb1e632-fd30-11d9-b224-00000e2511c8.html
Or they again blame Russia for their utter failure?...
Looks like they still blame Russia for "excessive violence" at the same time using Russian experience as an excuse for an accient with a Brazilan guy. A perfect example of a "quo licet jovi, non licet bovi" double standard.
/*I hope I'll not be "rule#16'd" for using well-known Latin expressions*/
I can only say that I can't imagine Moscow militia shooting someone at the case like Stockwell accident. At least I hope they'll never shoot in a subway.
I think that de Menezes behaved absloutely stupidly, but still... Here noone shoots at women in black Moslim clothes in a subway, even when they behave like suicide bombers - they try to evacuate them, maybe because our militia knows about "dead hand" detonators.
I believe you are over reacting to a reporters point of view not a western bias. But then maybe I read it wrong
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Originally posted by Krusher
I believe you are over reacting to a reporters point of view not a western bias. But then maybe I read it wrong
Maybe I am over reacting, but it's an attitude (Westen bias) I often see from intelligent Western people here. :rolleyes:
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Boroda, there will always be 'bias' between cultures and nations.
As long as there's a 'free press', you'll find plenty of examples of it.
No biggie.
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Boroda i think you have misunderstood the point of that article, they are not blaming Russia - they are justifying the use of shoot to kill tactics on the underground as they are used elsewhere to combat suicide bombers.
But elsewhere, such tough tactics are largely accepted as necessary in confronting suspected bombers or people posing a a life-threatening danger to others.
If someone decides to run away from armed police who have gone up to speak to him, jump a ticket point, run down a platform while getting screamed at to get down, then runs onto a busy train the day after a suicide attack attempt should get shot.
It is unfortunate for the guy that was killed and his family, but he has no one to blame but himself for his actions.
If he had been a suicide bomber, and he had run onto the train and blown himself up, people would be whining asking why the police didnt stop him.
Originally posted by Boroda
Looks like they still blame Russia for "excessive violence" at the same time using Russian experience as an excuse for an accient with a Brazilan guy. A perfect example of a "quo licet jovi, non licet bovi" double standard.
I dont think the Beslan siege and the theatre in Moscow are comparable to the Stockdale incident.
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Originally posted by Furball
Boroda i think you have misunderstood the point of that article, they are not blaming Russia - they are justifying the use of shoot to kill tactics on the underground as they are used elsewhere to combat suicide bombers.
I see that they say: "Look, Russians taught us to shoot on sight at suspicious people" (that Russians didn't)
Originally posted by Furball
If someone decides to run away from armed police who have gone up to speak to him, jump a ticket point, run down a platform while getting screamed at to get down, then runs onto a busy train the day after a suicide attack attempt should get shot.
It is unfortunate for the guy that was killed and his family, but he has no one to blame but himself for his actions.
If he had been a suicide bomber, and he had run onto the train and blown himself up, people would be whining asking why the police didnt stop him.
Running from police is always a silly thing to do for an innocent person.
But using firearms at a possible suicide bomber in an underground is even more stupid. Ever heard about "dead hand"? More to say - using firearms in an underground station is the top stupidity.
What's the difference between a "day after a suicide attack attempt" and any other day? I never understand the "security measures" that apply only for a week or somthing after another attack.
Example from Moscow metro: a woman wearing black clothes and a Moslim scarf behaving nervously was reported by passengers to Line Militia, militia "warriors" checked the car and found out that she pours some liquid from a bottle onto her dress and there is something underneath her clothes that is shaped like a bomb-belt... They simply took her hand and handcuffed her to a stick so she couldn't do anything with her hands, and then evacuated her on the escalator. First thing they did was not to shoot but to make sure she'll be unable to blow herself up, and to make sure that a "dead hand" will not work.
Our militia are usually complete morons, but they didn't even think of using weapons.
It's about what Russians could teach your law-efocement. :(
Originally posted by Furball
I dont think the Beslan siege and the theatre in Moscow are comparable to the Stockdale incident.
Nevertheles so-called "excessive violence" in this terrorist acts is used to justify a shooting at Stockdale! Beautiful logics!
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Didn't they mention Israel just as much as Russia or did you miss that in your rush to post this and bash the west?
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Boroda, here is the bottom line: when the police are chasing you, expect a bullet.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I see that they say: "Look, Russians taught us to shoot on sight at suspicious people" (that Russians didn't)
It is saying we have taken advice from both yourselves and the Israeli's on how to deal with suicide bombers. Nowhere does it say that you taught us to shoot innocent people.
Originally posted by Boroda
Nevertheles so-called "excessive violence" in this terrorist acts is used to justify a shooting at Stockdale! Beautiful logics!
No, not at all, nowhere did it blame the russians, you are assuming they are.
Your assumptions are way off base, the Metropolitan police were the first to admit they made a mistake and did not try to pass the blame onto anyone. Not even the guy that ran from them.
You really need to put your tin foil hat on.
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I thought this was about the "gift" Superbowl ring Kraft "gave" to Putin. :D
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Originally posted by Yeager
Boroda, here is the bottom line: when the police are chasing you, expect a bullet.
Facing a Militia "warrior" I am always coward and unscrupulous. :D
I never run away from them. I dont expect a bullet, they haveto fill too much papers for every bullet shot, and they are too lazy to chase a person who runs away, but with me they usually just check my passport or complain about drinking in public places, I don't commit any crimes other then riding a bus without a ticket. And I usually try to help them when they do a real job (not extorting money) like always being a witness when they search an arrested person and take away his posessions (I need to sign a list so they'll not steal anything), or reporting pickpockets searching drunk people when I ride metro at night.
But I never make any fast movements and never run, regardless to being 100% sure they'll not open fire.
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Originally posted by Furball
It is saying we have taken advice from both yourselves and the Israeli's on how to deal with suicide bombers. Nowhere does it say that you taught us to shoot innocent people.
No, not at all, nowhere did it blame the russians, you are assuming they are.
Your assumptions are way off base, the Metropolitan police were the first to admit they made a mistake and did not try to pass the blame onto anyone. Not even the guy that ran from them.
You really need to put your tin foil hat on.
Ok, thanks and sorry for being paranoid.
What I hate is that after Beslan all Western media talked about "Russians responsible for terrorist attacks because they don't let Chechnya free", and after London bombings it was "politically incorrect" here to say same things about UK involvement in Iraq, IIRC one or two journalists lost their jobs for saying it :( Again - "quo licet jovi, non licet bovi" :(
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Originally posted by Boroda
What I hate is that after Beslan all Western media talked about "Russians responsible for terrorist attacks because they don't let Chechnya free"
You honestly need to get out of the cold war mentality Boroda.
I can remember nothing but shock and sympathy for the Russians over that attack, may have been a bit of criticism on the way it was handled though.
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What I hate is that after Beslan all Western media talked about "Russians responsible for terrorist attacks because they don't let Chechnya free",
Oh and thats what u read in ur paper i guess.
I never mentioned it btw.
All here was just focussed on the victims.
Oh and..... i think ur country belongs to the west side also. ( with a french german pain in the prettythang attitude)
Now just start to accept it.
:aok
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Maybe the 'west' is starting to realize what it will mean if terrorist start attacking 'soft' targets
in US it has only been WTC and Pentagon.... Arguelably both military targets. 'Hard' targets, targets with secuirty measures.
Russia has seen attacks on Elementry School's
Huuuge diffrance......
Mass transit lies somewhere inbetween, maybe some minimal secuirty.
Russians simply have experiance dealing with 'soft' target attacks like schools.... maybe the artical is highlighting such things?
in hindsight, thier meathods may be extreame, but this is the west's frist modren taste of 'soft' target terrorist attacks
just a fact of life.... you can't protect the soft targets, so how do you deal with them?
Russia has had too, the 'west' really hasn't...... Mass transit is softish, but more guardable than a true 'soft' target like schools.
maybe that is something the 'west' has learned from Russia over these transit attacks.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Oh and thats what u read in ur paper i guess.
I never mentioned it btw.
All here was just focussed on the victims.
Oh and..... i think ur country belongs to the west side also. ( with a french german pain in the prettythang attitude)
Now just start to accept it.
:aok
I read http://www.inosmi.ru and http://www.inopressa.ru that provide translations from Western press, mostly from newspapers and magazines that I thought are respectfull sources, like The Times, Washington Post etc.
The problem is that our "right liberals" use the same rhethorics to blame "Evil Putin's regime" (tm) of everything. Their anty-Russian hysteria is making me sick.
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About "soft targets": it didn't start in Beslan or Nord-Ost theatre. It have begun in 1995, when a Chechen gang assaulted a small town of Budennovsk in Stavropol region (Cossack lands). They started with shooting everyone in the streets and then took hostages in a local maternity hospital... At that time Yeltsin's gang of morons have let them go and even provided terrorists with buses to Chechnya...
Then - Kizlyar attack, again failure, then - infamy of "peace treaty" with terrorists in 1996...
Then - 1999 invasion into Dagestan, where Russian Army mostly supported local militants fighting Chechen invaders with artillery and air support.
It resulted in apartment-house bombings, 4 explosions killing over 500 civilians sleeping in their beds at night.
It's why second Chechen war began.
Now we have anti-terrorist measures against such bombings - all apartment blocks in Msk have steel doors with code-locks, basements and attics are checked, most of the transport entering Msk is checked for explosives...
Then were Nord-Ost and subway bombings. I don't know how they prevent new subway bombings, maybe they simply have a huge network of informers inside terrorist organisations. I think it's the only way to stop such things. Now they plan to have TV cameras in every subway car, but AFAIK in London they already have such stuff and it didn't help. But it should help against installing a time-bomb in a car late at night when subway is almost empty.
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Bordoda, furby is right. The article is trying to justify the shoot to kill policy by the experiences russia and israel has had with suicide bombers.
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My opinion. Cop tries to talk to you and you run. Copt yells for you to stop and you still run and cop shoots you...oh well
As I beleive a Russian once said
"Death can solve many problems. No more man. No more problem."
when it comes to terrorists or potential terrorists. I think its the perfect perscription