Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Estel on July 26, 2005, 12:14:05 PM
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Ok. Let's imagine an abstract situation:
The Russian Federation signs the agreement about cooperation and military interaction with Iran.
This agreement contains items in which is specified about the introduction into the war in case of an attack the participant of the agreement.
How do you see the further actions of the USA government in relation to Iran?
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War.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
War.
Maybe. But I doubt that Russia will want to send troops to Iran. Or that we'll need Iranian troops here. But they may help in knocking out US sattelites in Caucasus region, restoring the "influence" in Georgia and Azerbaijan that was ruined by Russian Empire in XVIII-XIX centuries. In this case Georgian government will again "beg on their knees" for being allowed to join Russia...
I prefer this scenario to an obvious decision to solve a problem once and forever...
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Originally posted by Estel
Ok. Let's imagine an abstract situation:
The Russian Federation signs the agreement about cooperation and military interaction with Iran.
This agreement contains items in which is specified about the introduction into the war in case of an attack the participant of the agreement.
How do you see the further actions of the USA government in relation to Iran?
That would be very stupid of Russia.
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We are not talking about is it stupid or not. I said, it's an abstract. Let's think this agreement is a fact.
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First Russia would lose all US aid. We would immediately stop funding Russian programs. Including the hundreds of millions we spend getting rid of "russian" nukes.
Second I see the U.S. funding any/all Russian "Satellite" republics or states that even seems like it wants the opposite of Russia. Sign any and all treaties with the "satellite" republics promising them the same defense.
Third, Attack Iran just on the principle of Russia trying to "bully" its way back onto the world stage by allying itself with a rogue state.
Fourth Putin is not that dumb. Russia has neither the military strength or the money to back Iran in a conflict with the US or Isreal. That is why it is stupid.
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Originally posted by Raider179
First Russia would lose all US aid. We would immediately stop funding Russian programs. Including the hundreds of millions we spend getting rid of "russian" nukes.
You is wrong:D
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Originally posted by Raider179
First Russia would lose all US aid. We would immediately stop funding Russian programs. Including the hundreds of millions we spend getting rid of "russian" nukes.
Well, is there any American aid that goes on anything creative? Only on destruction of our agriculture, defence and industry. I doubt that if the events will go as Estel wrote we'll need any foreign funding for getting rid of our nuclear weapons.
BTW, "american aid" is overestimated. It's nothing compared to Russian state budget.
Originally posted by Raider179
Second I see the U.S. funding any/all Russian "Satellite" republics or states that even seems like it wants the opposite of Russia. Sign any and all treaties with the "satellite" republics promising them the same defense.
It's already so. Supporting "limitrophs" like Georgia and supporting fascist nationalistic regimes in Baltic region is your official policy now.
That's why I wrote about letting Iran deal with that loosers in Caucasus.
Originally posted by Raider179
Third, Attack Iran just on the principle of Russia trying to "bully" its way back onto the world stage by allying itself with a rogue state.
Iran is not a rogue state. At least it doesn't start aggressive wars.
If it will be attacked - I hope Russia will provide all possible technical assistance.
But I doubt that in such a case Iran will ever be attacked. It will be a quick and desperate return to MAD concept.
Originally posted by Raider179
Fourth Putin is not that dumb. Russia has neither the military strength or the money to back Iran in a conflict with the US or Isreal. That is why it is stupid.
Russia has Strategic Missile Corps. It's the problem. After 3-4 test launches declared in advance, with warheads going down in a "designated region of Pacific Ocean" someone will need to wash their pants. :(
The fact is that now Russia doesn't need any stinking "aid" from the West. We can do pretty well on our own. And we can't be "sieged" because in this case we can freeze the whole Europe duringthe first winter by closing natiral gas pipelines. Any attempt to finish the construction of a new Iron Curtain from Western side is impossible.
And imagine the impact on the oil market if Iran and Russia will cooperate...
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Originally posted by Boroda
BTW, "american aid" is overestimated.
Good. Give me my money back.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Good. Give me my money back.
Why? You wouldnt get it back anyway.
the goverment would just find some other meaningful use for it like studying the mating habits of butterflies or the elderly like they have done with the SS surplus LOL
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Good. Give me my money back.
I didn't ask for any aid. And what I defietly didn't ask for is for your advices on how we should live.
Example of "american aid": in 1999 we had a really good harvest, best in decades. Here comes "american aid": 2 million tons of wheat for free. Do you understand what did it do to Russian agriculture? No more such aid, please.
West is so angry at Putin because he tries to guard Russian foreign interests. That's the reason for exhumating moth-eaten Cold War "dissidents" and screaming about "demooocracy" at every corner, absolutely missing his internal policy.
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Boroda, I fully expect in the coming years America will be forced to implement some very unpopular (with russia) policies regarding the security of ameican 'interests', backed up by the use of applied military violence to make the point.
Iran may well be the place that happens. It may be a second Korean War. It could be Pakistan. It might be France. The location matters not a bit.
Data point: US 'interest' is not world domination or the conquest of Russia, yah paranoid commie. It never was, never will be. It is however in America's best interest that nobody else does either. All threats are 'serious' particularly in this Nuclear Age of push button war.
Should Russia attempt to return to cold war dogma and international policies, the US will whip yer bellybutton again, without ever putting a foot on your soil. Should Russia decide to go 'hot', we'll still whip yer ass, and you won't be harvesting any wheat any time soon as a result.
Now, unless you seriously think your financially bankrupt and broken down piss-pot republic (with our without any third world pals you bring in on your 'side') can stand in the ring and go toe to toe with the most advanced and competent military on the planet, I suggest yah stop pounding the podium & plop yer wide flat russian butt back down in yer seat and put yer shoe back on.
Get a Moscow McDonalds Big Mac and enjoy Democracy in Action.
;)
(Note: I haven't seen any Russian fast food joints in the US.. is that significant?)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Iran is not a rogue state. At least it doesn't start aggressive wars.
If it will be attacked - I hope Russia will provide all possible technical assistance.
So the help Iran gives to terrorist including, Chechen is ok by you?
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No time to aswer to Hang, already running home.
Originally posted by Krusher
So the help Iran gives to terrorist including, Chechen is ok by you?
Iran is one of the many Moslim countries (unlike some NATO members) that never supports Chechen terrorists. Iran's foreign policy is an interesting thing. They assisted Armenia together with Russia in a war against Azerbaijan. In fact they helped Christian nations against Moslims.
Again I have to say that some things are quite different from what "everyone knows".
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ruh roh. Boroda's on the way home, brown bag in hand, no ticket in his pocket.
Now I'm in fer it.. when (if) he makes it home, i'm gonna get my yankee dog ears pinned back.
I eagerly await my demise.
;)
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Originally posted by Raider179
First Russia would lose all US aid. We would immediately stop funding Russian programs. Including the hundreds of millions we spend getting rid of "russian" nukes.
No problem. That nukes will return onto service. Will it be bad for Russia? I don't think so. Your "other" programs are not so big as you think. And most part of them are political.
Second I see the U.S. funding any/all Russian "Satellite" republics or states that even seems like it wants the opposite of Russia. Sign any and all treaties with the "satellite" republics promising them the same defense.
It's already going. Ukraine, Georgia and all neo-nazi baltic ex-republics. Give me something new.
Third, Attack Iran just on the principle of Russia trying to "bully" its way back onto the world stage by allying itself with a rogue state.
Rogue? I don't think so. Facts?
Fourth Putin is not that dumb. Russia has neither the military strength or the money to back Iran in a conflict with the US or Isreal. That is why it is stupid.
You took wrong exit. We are not interested in beginning of the new war. Here we are only allied side to Iran. And we sure, that nor we, nor Iran will start the war.
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Originally posted by Estel
7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.
enh? Estel, I know all us americans type pretty much alike, but I ain't the one that brought money into this discussion.
Care to try again?.. and this time try and stay on quote subject and point that thing at the right american.
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Originally posted by 1K3
You is wrong:D
care to explain which part?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, is there any American aid that goes on anything creative? Only on destruction of our agriculture, defence and industry. I doubt that if the events will go as Estel wrote we'll need any foreign funding for getting rid of our nuclear weapons.
BTW, "american aid" is overestimated. It's nothing compared to Russian state budget.
It's already so. Supporting "limitrophs" like Georgia and supporting fascist nationalistic regimes in Baltic region is your official policy now.
That's why I wrote about letting Iran deal with that loosers in Caucasus.
Iran is not a rogue state. At least it doesn't start aggressive wars.
If it will be attacked - I hope Russia will provide all possible technical assistance.
But I doubt that in such a case Iran will ever be attacked. It will be a quick and desperate return to MAD concept.
Russia has Strategic Missile Corps. It's the problem. After 3-4 test launches declared in advance, with warheads going down in a "designated region of Pacific Ocean" someone will need to wash their pants. :(
The fact is that now Russia doesn't need any stinking "aid" from the West. We can do pretty well on our own. And we can't be "sieged" because in this case we can freeze the whole Europe duringthe first winter by closing natiral gas pipelines. Any attempt to finish the construction of a new Iron Curtain from Western side is impossible.
And imagine the impact on the oil market if Iran and Russia will cooperate...
Sigh
http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rpt/37668.htm
OVERVIEW OF U.S. GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE
In FY 2003, the U.S. Government provided an estimated $963.33 million* in assistance to Russia:
$81.37 million in democratic reform programs (including Public Diplomacy exchange programs)
$69.44 million in economic and social-sector reform programs;
$770.62 million in security, regional stability and law enforcement programs;
$26.10 million in humanitarian programs;
$9.13 million in cross-sectoral and other programs; and
privately donated and U.S. Defense Department excess humanitarian commodities valued at $6.67 million.
1)So you see we give Russia 1 billion dollars in 2003. And it got spent on a lot of different programs. Comparing American aid to your country's State Budget is laughable. Imagine a poor person getting a handout and then complaining "I make more money than this at my job". Fine give us back our billion/year. Also that doesnt take into account clearing of BILLIONS in Russian Debt.
2)Good.
3)Any State that fails to adhere to International laws regarding nukes is a rogue state. Iran is in direct defiance of International law regarding nuclear weapons/energy.
4)You want to support Iran? Brother you have lost it. What if we supported the chechens? How would you like that?
5)As for the fear of your "missile corps" it also gives me chuckles. You Russians got any stealth technology over there? Oh that's right you don't. First sign you were in a nuclear war with the U.S. would be your cities and missiles facilities being lit up by ours.
6)Considering the US gets most of its oil from Mexico, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Venesuela and Nigeria and ZERO from Iran and very little from Russia I don't see it having any effect on the US.
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Originally posted by Estel
No problem. That nukes will return onto service. Will it be bad for Russia? I don't think so. Your "other" programs are not so big as you think. And most part of them are political.
It's already going. Ukraine, Georgia and all neo-nazi baltic ex-republics. Give me something new.
Rogue? I don't think so. Facts?
You took wrong exit. We are not interested in beginning of the new war. Here we are only allied side to Iran. And we sure, that nor we, nor Iran will start the war.
Like I said 1 billion a year not to mention Loans, which debts have been cleared. Care to guess how many billions those loans get into?
Doesnt matter you still have your hand out for American Aid. I for one would like Russia to say no to our Aid. I would rather see my money spent on people who don't secretly want to see the demise of my country.
Ever wonder if those millions we were giving to your satellite countries turned into billions?
Here maybe this fact will help you.
"Ignoring the unanimous passage of the IAEA resolution that called for the suspension of all uranium enrichment programs, Iranian authorities announced the resumption of the process."
Does that help ya?
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Originally posted by Raider179
Sigh
http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rpt/37668.htm
OVERVIEW OF U.S. GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE
In FY 2003, the U.S. Government provided an estimated $963.33 million* in assistance to Russia:
$81.37 million in democratic reform programs (including Public Diplomacy exchange programs)
$69.44 million in economic and social-sector reform programs;
$770.62 million in security, regional stability and law enforcement programs;
$26.10 million in humanitarian programs;
$9.13 million in cross-sectoral and other programs; and
privately donated and U.S. Defense Department excess humanitarian commodities valued at $6.67 million.
1)So you see we give Russia 1 billion dollars in 2003. And it got spent on a lot of different programs. Comparing American aid to your country's State Budget is laughable. Imagine a poor person getting a handout and then complaining "I make more money than this at my job". Fine give us back our billion/year. Also that doesnt take into account clearing of BILLIONS in Russian Debt.
Sigh, and in 2003 Russia gave the US over 6 billion dollars in goods and services, over 8 billion in 2004 and over 4 billion so far this year. Ain't that nice of the US to give a billion back.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html
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wow, this discussion is heating up.
Remmember it wasnt about if we went to war with russia, it was if russia and Iran became allies. I dont think it would change much, Russia would have another friendly country. It may even make Iran stop its research and development cause russia could just build em all the Nuclear power plants they wanted. Sure would make a war easier with Iran. Just hit the power plants that are spread throughout the country with bunker busters to crack the Core and and kill the plant workers. Radiation would leak out and spread across most of their country, all the rest of the military would have to do is mop up.
BUUUUT i doubt that would happen, plus radiation poisoning is horrible way to die.:aok
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russia couldn't possibly be so stupid as to openly antagonize the US like that, aid or no aid.
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Originally posted by Raider179
4)What if we supported the chechens? How would you like that?
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US have been doing so since 90s if not earlier. Or are you going to say that Chechens waved magic wand and somehow made out of thin air American combat medic kits?
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Originally posted by superpug1
wow, this discussion is heating up.
Remmember it wasnt about if we went to war with russia, it was if russia and Iran became allies. I dont think it would change much, Russia would have another friendly country. It may even make Iran stop its research and development cause russia could just build em all the Nuclear power plants they wanted. Sure would make a war easier with Iran. Just hit the power plants that are spread throughout the country with bunker busters to crack the Core and and kill the plant workers. Radiation would leak out and spread across most of their country, all the rest of the military would have to do is mop up.
BUUUUT i doubt that would happen, plus radiation poisoning is horrible way to die.:aok
Now, what in the world would a peace-loving non-hostile non-hate oriented non-terror supporting islamic nation that's the 4th largest producer of cheap OIL (3.9 MILLION barrels PER DAY) need with any cotton pickin NUCLEAR power plants?
Now, should the Russians get all cozy with Iran and supply them with nuclear technology I'd tend to view that as DEFINITY contrary to american security intrests. And yah know somethin?? Russia being Iran's buddy fer life wouldn't extend Russia OR Iran's viabaility against a first strike response from the US by more than 10 or 15 nano-seconds.
If Russia or Iran wanna play hardball, they're gonna find America's Republican Hawk government less than willing to 'negotiate' a damn thing less than smoking craters where the proposed sites are and very big smooth bottomed holes where the stuff came from.
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Originally posted by Russian
US have been doing so since 90s if not earlier. Or are you going to say that Chechens waved magic wand and somehow made out of thin air American combat medic kits?
First aid kits?? Bandages?
No Stingers? C4? Weapons?
Yer bent because the checkens have american band-aids?
Henh... yah know, one of those london bombers had a New York sweat shirt... New York musta been behind the London Terror Bomb attacks!
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, what in the world would a peace-loving non-hostile non-hate oriented non-terror supporting islamic nation that's the 4th largest producer of cheap OIL (3.9 MILLION barrels PER DAY) need with any cotton pickin NUCLEAR power plants?
To play devil's advocate, or nutbar islamic theocracy's advocate, it is possible that the Iranian government believes that it is worth more to them to sell the oil than use it domestically, heck it might even be true.
Example, say Canada is one of the major producers of an important product that is very much in demand...say beaver. Every beaver pelt that we use domestically, to keep ourselves warm and what not, is one more we can't sell, and get greater value for and import other goods we may demand.
Now say the Kiwis or Aussies come up to Canada and say, "We'll teach you to harvest wool. Using sheep to keep warm is alot cheaper than using beaver. On top of that it frees up your beaver to sell else where.".
Now even though Canada has the some of the most abundant and best beaver in the world, it might become economically beneficial to switch to sheep for domestic use.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yer bent because the checkens have american band-aids?
Hey, those aren't just any band-aids, those are combat band-aids. :mad:
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Originally posted by Thrawn
To play devil's advocate, or nutbar islamic theocracy's advocate, it is possible that the Iranian government believes that it is worth more to them to sell the oil than use it domestically, heck it might even be true.
Example, say Canada is one of the major producers of an important product that is very much in demand...say beaver. Every beaver pelt that we use domestically, to keep ourselves warm and what not, is one more we can't sell, and get greater value for and import other goods we may demand.
Now say the Kiwis or Aussies come up to Canada and say, "We'll teach you to harvest wool. Using sheep to keep warm is alot cheaper than using beaver. On top of that it frees up your beaver to sell else where.".
Now even though Canada has the some of the most abundant and best beaver in the world, it might become economically beneficial to switch to sheep for domestic use.
Oh, Canada! wilst thou swap real beaver fer sheep?
Yea, I think you probably would. ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Oh, Canada! wilst thou swap real beaver fer sheep?
Yea, I think you probably would. ;)
Only in Ottawa (where we store our politicians). The rest of us understand that the value of good beaver.
asw
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If any superpowers are going to end up backing Iran it will be as likely be China as Russia and there isn't much US could do about it.
A major new alliance is emerging between Iran and China that threatens to undermine U.S. ability to pressure Tehran on its nuclear program...
..The burgeoning relationship is reflected in two huge new oil and gas deals between the two countries that will deepen the relationship for at least the next 25 years, analysts here say. ..
..China's trade with Iran is weakening the impact on Iranian policy of various U.S. economic embargoes..
..Beijing has also provided Iran with advanced military technology, including missile technology..
..The Iran-China ties may be partly a response to the United States, analysts here say. President Bush's strategy has been to contain both China and the Islamic republic, said Siamak Namazi, a political and economic analyst, "so that's created natural allies."..
Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55414-2004Nov16.html)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
ruh roh. Boroda's on the way home, brown bag in hand, no ticket in his pocket.
Now I'm in fer it.. when (if) he makes it home, i'm gonna get my yankee dog ears pinned back.
I eagerly await my demise.
;)
"Brown bag" - you mean a pauper's bag? My Father calls my city-backpack (alpinist's "storm-backpack") a "pauper's bag" :D
I have a 90day Metro pass, contactless smart-card. And a pack of cigarettes in a pocket. I don't need anything else in my city. A bottle of beer in my hand is a bonus. ;)
Now I am back at work after celebrating with my Cousin from Barnaul, Altai, and his scientific chief (professor). I have a severe hangover, already had my 100ml of vodka at 0900, drinking mineral water now... Thirsty... ;)
Going to field work now, working on a LAN in some office at "Airport" area, so no time or possibility to think now. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Sigh, and in 2003 Russia gave the US over 6 billion dollars in goods and services, over 8 billion in 2004 and over 4 billion so far this year. Ain't that nice of the US to give a billion back.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html
lmao you are comparing trade with aid. Lmao you do know the difference right?
I saw nothing that said Russia GAVE anything.
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Originally posted by superpug1
wow, this discussion is heating up.
Remmember it wasnt about if we went to war with russia, it was if russia and Iran became allies. I dont think it would change much, Russia would have another friendly country. It may even make Iran stop its research and development cause russia could just build em all the Nuclear power plants they wanted. Sure would make a war easier with Iran. Just hit the power plants that are spread throughout the country with bunker busters to crack the Core and and kill the plant workers. Radiation would leak out and spread across most of their country, all the rest of the military would have to do is mop up.
BUUUUT i doubt that would happen, plus radiation poisoning is horrible way to die.:aok
Hmmm seems to me that the EU already offered Iran Light water reactors and they declined. They want heavy water reactors for one reason.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
To play devil's advocate, or nutbar islamic theocracy's advocate, it is possible that the Iranian government believes that it is worth more to them to sell the oil than use it domestically, heck it might even be true.
Example, say Canada is one of the major producers of an important product that is very much in demand...say beaver. Every beaver pelt that we use domestically, to keep ourselves warm and what not, is one more we can't sell, and get greater value for and import other goods we may demand.
Now say the Kiwis or Aussies come up to Canada and say, "We'll teach you to harvest wool. Using sheep to keep warm is alot cheaper than using beaver. On top of that it frees up your beaver to sell else where.".
Now even though Canada has the some of the most abundant and best beaver in the world, it might become economically beneficial to switch to sheep for domestic use.
Its an ok analogy but comparing wool with Heavy water reactors is just not gonna cut it. Keep in mind Iran turned down the light water reactor deal from the EU.
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Originally posted by detch01
Only in Ottawa (where we store our politicians). The rest of us understand that the value of good beaver.
asw
Even if I wasnt drunk I still woulda laughed :) good one
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Originally posted by Momus--
If any superpowers are going to end up backing Iran it will be as likely be China as Russia and there isn't much US could do about it.
Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55414-2004Nov16.html)
Most intelligent to be in this thread. China has way more to gain and a lot less to lose by placing that pressure on the US. Taiwan anyone???
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Originally posted by Russian
US have been doing so since 90s if not earlier. Or are you going to say that Chechens waved magic wand and somehow made out of thin air American combat medic kits?
Link these accusations or say nothing.
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All this hand wringing over Iran as a rogue nation is fairly ill-conceived IMO. If Iran wants nukes, it has more to do with the desire to guarantee their own independence and deter invasion than to use in any offensive capability. You only need to look at their recent history to understand their motivations for this; getting attacked by a Western-backed Iraq and taking hundreds of thousands of casualties as a result is probably still quite fresh in their memories, no?
The reason for Israel's squealing about Iran's nuclear program is not because they fear an attack, but because they know that it would alter the regional balance of power at their expense and weaken their negotiating position over the occupied territories and a final peace settlement with their neighbours. Their post-1967 position as regional top-dog and resulting privileged relationship with the west would soon become a thing of the past as the rest of the world became obliged to treat nations other than Israel as the real regional powerhouses. Israel knows that if Iran ever stepped seriously out of line then the combined forces of the US, Britain, France, Russia, China, and indeed the rest of the world would administer one almighty beating rather than let them destabilize a region that is so fundamental to the prosperity of the world economy. Iran's rulers might be a bunch of theocratic wing-nuts but they are not stupid; their overriding and above all pragmatic concern is to stay in power in their own backyard. Their pursuit of nuclear technology needs to be viewed in this context.
It's pretty clear to me that behind the scenes it is China already pulling Iran's strings. China has gone from being a net oil exporter to an importer in the last decade and will need to guarantee its supply in the decades ahead. Iran is pretty much the richest producer outside of the USA's sphere of influence, especially now that Iraq has been brought back into the fold. Leveraging the oil supply is pretty much the only option left to the US in maintaining advantage over the Chinese and the Chinese will have recognised that fact a decade ago if not sooner.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Hmmm seems to me that the EU already offered Iran Light water reactors and they declined. They want heavy water reactors for one reason.
The hype about Iranian nuclear programm started after RF declared that the only condition for building powerstation in Busher is that geat-emitting elements will be recycled in Russia.
About EU's position on a Russia/Iran nuclear deal: it's competition. France produces over 70% of electricity on nuclear powerstations, they do have some technology to export.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Boroda, I fully expect in the coming years America will be forced to implement some very unpopular (with russia) policies regarding the security of ameican 'interests', backed up by the use of applied military violence to make the point.
You are welcome. Did you read "Moon is a harsh mistress"? What target do you suggest for a first strike to demonstrate our abilities?...
Originally posted by Hangtime
Iran may well be the place that happens. It may be a second Korean War. It could be Pakistan. It might be France. The location matters not a bit.
Sure, for new world order it doesn't matter where to start a slaughter.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Data point: US 'interest' is not world domination or the conquest of Russia, yah paranoid commie. It never was, never will be. It is however in America's best interest that nobody else does either. All threats are 'serious' particularly in this Nuclear Age of push button war.
Heh, Hang, so why all this hype about "democracy"?
Democracy is only an effective way to increase Coca-Cola and chewing gum sales. (c) Pavel Yurievich Pavlov.
You don't need world domination, for sure. All you need is to make profit. Just as in WWII.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Should Russia attempt to return to cold war dogma and international policies, the US will whip yer bellybutton again, without ever putting a foot on your soil. Should Russia decide to go 'hot', we'll still whip yer ass, and you won't be harvesting any wheat any time soon as a result.
Again?! LOL!
If some looney in DC will decide to go "hot" - expect to see some smoke-trails coming down from the sky. I mean - this fascinating scene will be your last and most impressive experience. :( Unfortunately it's Ultima ratio regis for Russia.
/*Sorry for using Latin again*/
Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, unless you seriously think your financially bankrupt and broken down piss-pot republic (with our without any third world pals you bring in on your 'side') can stand in the ring and go toe to toe with the most advanced and competent military on the planet, I suggest yah stop pounding the podium & plop yer wide flat russian butt back down in yer seat and put yer shoe back on.
Advanced and competent military on the planet? What planet? You mean - on Mars with your rover carts?
If the planet is Earth - then why don't I hear air-raid sirens while typing this?
:D
Too scared? Are we still too young for democracy? Or maybe too old? (Novgorod Republic existed in 800AD, 1000 years before your "declaration on independance" and constitution). I guess - too young, because we still have Strategic Missile Corps.
A quote from a nazi Tiger company commander who was transferred to the West from Russian front in 1945: "One Russian is more dangerous then five of this Americans".
Originally posted by Hangtime
Get a Moscow McDonalds Big Mac and enjoy Democracy in Action.
;)
(Note: I haven't seen any Russian fast food joints in the US.. is that significant?)
Sure, you only prove my words: "democracy" is nothing more then marketing technology.
I prefer pirogi, chebureki, shawerma or shashlyk to hamburgers, and kvas to coke.
I don't want to say that I'll go to war because of it, but I want to choose food myself, without any advices, especially if that advices are backed up by B-52s and cruise missiles.
See a quote from Chairman Mao in my sig.
And you shouldn't advice us about who has to be our friend and who hasn't. If someone makes such advises - we get nervous. :(
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Originally posted by Raider179
Link these accusations or say nothing.
27 Stinger missiles captured in Chechnya doesn't ring a bell?...
Hosting Chechen terrorists ("political asylum" for Akhmadov) is a friendly act?
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Originally posted by Boroda
The hype about Iranian nuclear programm started after RF declared that the only condition for building powerstation in Busher is that geat-emitting elements will be recycled in Russia.
About EU's position on a Russia/Iran nuclear deal: it's competition. France produces over 70% of electricity on nuclear powerstations, they do have some technology to export.
ummm no.
the hype started when it was discovered that Pakistan's star scientist (khan I think his name was) let it be known he sold centrifuges to Iran.
Its no competition. EU offered Iran LWR technology and guess what, Iran passed on it. So the "we need energy so we can sell our oil" is a baseless claim. Only 1 reason for HWR and that is to make bombs.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Advanced and competent military on the planet? What planet? You mean - on Mars with your rover carts?
If the planet is Earth - then why don't I hear air-raid sirens while typing this?
:D
Too scared? Are we still too young for democracy? Or maybe too old? (Novgorod Republic existed in 800AD, 1000 years before your "declaration on independance" and constitution). I guess - too young, because we still have Strategic Missile Corps.
A quote from a nazi Tiger company commander who was transferred to the West from Russian front in 1945: "One Russian is more dangerous then five of this Americans".
I don't want to say that I'll go to war because of it, but I want to choose food myself, without any advices, especially if that advices are backed up by B-52s and cruise missiles.
See a quote from Chairman Mao in my sig.
And you shouldn't advice us about who has to be our friend and who hasn't. If someone makes such advises - we get nervous. :(
1)You dont hear Sirens because your 40 year old radars cant pick up stealth. You wouldnt even know if America decided to take your country back to the middle ages.
and by the way where are the russian mars landers again? oh thats right they ALL crashed going in.
2)Your missile corps is a joke. You cant even secure you own nuclear arms without Funding from US.
3)As for you quote, Notice we fought 3000 miles away from our homeland, you guys fought how many miles into yours? Dangerous does not mean effective.
4)More like backed up by F-22s, Tomahawks, B-2s, and F-117s.
5)Dont be friends with our enemies and you won't have a problem but then again you signed a treaty with germany in WW2 so why should I think Russia would do anything different this time.
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Originally posted by Boroda
27 Stinger missiles captured in Chechnya doesn't ring a bell?...
Hosting Chechen terrorists ("political asylum" for Akhmadov) is a friendly act?
hmmm maybe it didnt translate so well let me try again..
LINK IT OR FORGET IT.
I do remember Stingers in Afghanistan though and we all know how well you fared over there. Maybe you should remember that when you talk about how strong your military is and how weak ours is.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Maybe. But I doubt that Russia will want to send troops to Iran. Or that we'll need Iranian troops here. But they may help in knocking out US sattelites in Caucasus region, restoring the "influence" in Georgia and Azerbaijan that was ruined by Russian Empire in XVIII-XIX centuries. In this case Georgian government will again "beg on their knees" for being allowed to join Russia...
I prefer this scenario to an obvious decision to solve a problem once and forever...
You mean as opposed to the "Afghanistan Failure" throughout the 80's?
Karaya
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Sigh, and in 2003 Russia gave the US over 6 billion dollars in goods and services, over 8 billion in 2004 and over 4 billion so far this year. Ain't that nice of the US to give a billion back.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4621.html
That's "trade", thrawn. It means the US paid for the stuff. You know, like "bought things from Russia".
Don't confuse giving money away with paying for goods and services.
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Boroda, my paranoid russian friend; had world domination been the American foriegn policy dogma of the 40's and 50's we (you anyway) would not be having this conversation.
If it was policy now, we (you) would not be having this conversation.
Here's the deal.. Play Nice, we let you have neat stuff, levi's bubble gum and coca-cola. Stuff you guys must want, or you'd still be doing May Day Parades with cardboard missiles.
Play Not-Nice, we cut off the neat stuff and you have another revolution.
Get nasty and start 'demonstrating' ala Moon is Harsh Mistress and you'll wind up wondering who the hell shut the lights off... right before you figure out there's nobody left to throw the switch.
We (and it must make you absoluety nuts to know this) have the upper hand militarily by such a large margin now that some nutball hawk republican Curtiss Lemay throwback in washington just MIGHT figure we could win a nuclear war. Which would be a true tragedy, because nobody wins if we get that far.
As for the stingers in Chechnya, what about the RPG's in Iraq? Sure, stuff gets into the wrong hands via illegal technology transfers between 'third' parties.. but lemme ask you a question.
Just WHERE did all your missing nuclear materials go? And, just WHO's responsible for the world-wide distribution of russian surplus arms?
Boroda, your country no longer has an 'elected' government (again).. it does however have a heluva problem with it's 'mafia'.
So, who's in charge there? Corrupt Criminals or Puppet Government?
Perhaps you should look to the trangressions of your countrymen against mother russia as your nations greatest challenge. You need not fear the US, you should be very afraid of yourselves.
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OK someone please tell me if i'll get really ugly.
Originally posted by Raider179
1)You dont hear Sirens because your 40 year old radars cant pick up stealth. You wouldnt even know if America decided to take your country back to the middle ages.
40 years old radars in Yugoslavia were able to detect your technical marvell and a 30 years old S-125 missile locked upon it and shot it down.
You speak nonsence.
Originally posted by Raider179
and by the way where are the russian mars landers again? oh thats right they ALL crashed going in.
Where are American Venus landers? All cracked by atmospheric pressure? Looks like you guys can only work in vacuum or under low pressure ;)
Originally posted by Raider179
2)Your missile corps is a joke. You cant even secure you own nuclear arms without Funding from US.
Wanna give us some money? You are welcome, especially if it goes to securing our nuclear arsenal :D
Originally posted by Raider179
3)As for you quote, Notice we fought 3000 miles away from our homeland, you guys fought how many miles into yours? Dangerous does not mean effective.
3000 miles is a joke. During Manchurian operation Soviet Army defeated Japanese continental troops (1,500,000 men) loosing only 8500 men. Look at the map and see how far Manchuria and Korea are from main population centers.
We defeated the main Japanese ground force in 2 weeks, while US spent 3 years crawling around some god-forgotten islands. Learn from us, now it's still free.
Originally posted by Raider179
4)More like backed up by F-22s, Tomahawks, B-2s, and F-117s.
F-22s? They already exist? ;) LOL!!!
B-2s? The ones that blew up Chinese embassy in Belgrad? LOL!!!
F-117s? I already told you...
Originally posted by Raider179
5)Dont be friends with our enemies and you won't have a problem but then again you signed a treaty with germany in WW2 so why should I think Russia would do anything different this time.
We are a souverign country, and we are free to sign any treaty, and it's not your ****ing business.
American B-17 bombers had special areas in Germany on flight maps that shouldn't be bombed under any conditions: there were industrial objects owned by US corporations. Like Opel factories owned by GM.
Your companies worked for nazis during the war, until the war was over. It's a fact.
For folks like you war is a game, for your corporations it's a profit, for Russians it's a matter of survival. And if we'll understand that we have no chance to survive - you should expect some surprises. :(
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
You mean as opposed to the "Afghanistan Failure" throughout the 80's?
Karaya
Sorry, I thought that my innuendo was quite understandable.
I meant MAD. MAD will work only if both sides will have the guts to press a button. In case of Russia - we have "dead hand" devices that will launch in case our missile silos will receive a punch over a certain ammount of kg/cm2. So - a massive launch against Russia means MAD.
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Well, "american assistance" my ***... istance.
/*Edited to comply with lang rules*/
Originally posted by Raider179
Sigh
Get a glass of cold water please.
Originally posted by Raider179
$81.37 million in democratic reform programs (including Public Diplomacy exchange programs)
Democratic reform programms? Are you kidding me? $81M spent on funding groups wanting to overthrow our legitimate government? Or on increasing Coca-Cola sales?
Originally posted by Raider179
$69.44 million in economic and social-sector reform programs;
Social sector reform? You mean - on bribing our brass-hats for eliminating certain social groups like the one to which I belong?
Look, I finally speak about Putin's internal policy.
Originally posted by Raider179
$770.62 million in security, regional stability and law enforcement programs;
What the hell is this? Elaborate please.
Originally posted by Raider179
$26.10 million in humanitarian programs;
Here everything is clear. It's a humanitarian aid to Chechen terrorists, including Akhmadov's salary in DoS foundation.
Originally posted by Raider179
$9.13 million in cross-sectoral and other programs;
It's just bribes, nevermind.
Originally posted by Raider179
and
privately donated and U.S. Defense Department excess humanitarian commodities valued at $6.67 million.
It's payments to traitors who work for US Defence Department. Obvious.
I checked with a dictionary, it's spelled "defence". Who was an illiterate who compiled that pile of crap you posted for me?
Originally posted by Raider179
1)So you see we give Russia 1 billion dollars in 2003. And it got spent on a lot of different programs.
Answer my question about literacy first.
As I showed above - even if the numbers are true (that I doubt) - most of the "aid" goes on destruction of Russian state.
Want aid? - No, thanks. We'd better get by on ourselves, somehow.
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With all due respect, we spell differently here in the USA. Defense is correct. It's also labor, harbor, and armor.
Whether or not YOU personally want the aid, boroda, your COUNTRY accepts it gladly. And if they are using it to destroy your "class" of individual, you might want to talk to your leaders.
BTW, what "oppressed class" do you belong to?
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Originally posted by rshubert
With all due respect, we spell differently here in the USA. Defense is correct. It's also labor, harbor, and armor.
Sorry, I studied English... I still understand BBC or Sky better then CNN.
I speak different Russian then Muscowites, I was born in Leningrad, I speak in a right way, and I expect others at leat to spell correctly. Maybe I am a fossil :(
Originally posted by rshubert
Whether or not YOU personally want the aid, boroda, your COUNTRY accepts it gladly. And if they are using it to destroy your "class" of individual, you might want to talk to your leaders.
If someone gives to you - take it, if someone beats you - run. A basic rule.
But if it was up to me - I'll use another basic rule: don't take anything given, it means obligations.
Originally posted by rshubert
BTW, what "oppressed class" do you belong to?
I work in Academy of Science. The only thing they didn't try against us is probably DDT. We are nothing more then a resource of estate to sell for our current regime, "beloved Party and Government". <- it's an ironic definition from Soviet times.
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Boroda, one day you and I gotta get drunk in the same place at the same time.
;)
p.s. it is an American right and obligation to mangle the english language. that includes spelling, punctuation and verbage. it seems to be a never ending source of aggravation for our cousins across the pond, and it drives euro and asian freakin nuttz.
..which is why we do it.
Conversely, and as a backhanded compliment, most americans do not have more than one skilled language.. and depending on who you talk to, even that is debateable. You, estel and several other euro's have a very good command of our quirky impossible language while we for the most part have no comparable knowledge of yours.
well done.
now, go grab a corrupt russian government offcial by the nose and kick 'em in the ballsac a few times for both of us.
yah paranoid commie martyr dionosaur. ;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
American B-17 bombers had special areas in Germany on flight maps that shouldn't be bombed under any conditions: there were industrial objects owned by US corporations. Like Opel factories owned by GM.
In 1967, GM was compensated $33 million dollars as payment for the GM factory the US bombed in Russelsheim.
Apparently the maps you mention were not very accurate.
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Originally posted by Boroda
OK someone please tell me if i'll get really ugly.
40 years old radars in Yugoslavia were able to detect your technical marvell and a 30 years old S-125 missile locked upon it and shot it down.
You speak nonsence.
Where are American Venus landers? All cracked by atmospheric pressure? Looks like you guys can only work in vacuum or under low pressure ;)
Wanna give us some money? You are welcome, especially if it goes to securing our nuclear arsenal :D
3000 miles is a joke. During Manchurian operation Soviet Army defeated Japanese continental troops (1,500,000 men) loosing only 8500 men. Look at the map and see how far Manchuria and Korea are from main population centers.
We defeated the main Japanese ground force in 2 weeks, while US spent 3 years crawling around some god-forgotten islands. Learn from us, now it's still free.
F-22s? They already exist? ;) LOL!!!
B-2s? The ones that blew up Chinese embassy in Belgrad? LOL!!!
F-117s? I already told you...
We are a souverign country, and we are free to sign any treaty, and it's not your ****ing business.
For folks like you war is a game, for your corporations it's a profit, for Russians it's a matter of survival. And if we'll understand that we have no chance to survive - you should expect some surprises. :(
wow you shot down 1 F117 and you think that proves your technology could stop our squadrons of f117s and b's. How many stealths did we lose in the 2x we were in Iraq? Zero. Lay sorties against 1 shootdown and you are gonna have a very very miniscule %.
oh now you want "our money" to secure "your nukes" what a joke. Gimme gimme gimme and then be pissy about how you wished you hadnt took it.
3000 miles is the distance from the US to Europe and even farther to Japan. Your Country on the other hand couldnt even defend its own territory.
You talking WW1 or what? Russia didnt even get into the war with Japan until near the very end of the war and the only reason you did was so you could take land.
You do have the right to treaty with anyone you want and we have the right to blow the (*#) out of your country if we feel it jeopardizes the security of ours.
Yeah helping Iran is gonna set you back not bring you forward, something I think you are missing completely.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, I thought that my innuendo was quite understandable.
I meant MAD. MAD will work only if both sides will have the guts to press a button. In case of Russia - we have "dead hand" devices that will launch in case our missile silos will receive a punch over a certain ammount of kg/cm2. So - a massive launch against Russia means MAD.
Yeah I saw that movie, Dr. strangelove right? lmao
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Originally posted by Boroda
Well, "american assistance" my ***... istance.
/*Edited to comply with lang rules*/
Get a glass of cold water please.
Democratic reform programms? Are you kidding me? $81M spent on funding groups wanting to overthrow our legitimate government? Or on increasing Coca-Cola sales?
Social sector reform? You mean - on bribing our brass-hats for eliminating certain social groups like the one to which I belong?
Look, I finally speak about Putin's internal policy.
What the hell is this? Elaborate please.
Here everything is clear. It's a humanitarian aid to Chechen terrorists, including Akhmadov's salary in DoS foundation.
It's just bribes, nevermind.
It's payments to traitors who work for US Defence Department. Obvious.
I checked with a dictionary, it's spelled "defence". Who was an illiterate who compiled that pile of crap you posted for me?
Answer my question about literacy first.
As I showed above - even if the numbers are true (that I doubt) - most of the "aid" goes on destruction of Russian state.
Want aid? - No, thanks. We'd better get by on ourselves, somehow.
1)If you read my posts then you saw the link. Go read it for yourself. I always link to facts I use to support my arguments, you should try it.
2)Try an ENGLISH dictionary. But it just shows me you know you are losing this debate when you resort to grammatical errors to prove something is incorrect. nice try
3)Thats really funny. Putin has the ability to stop our money. He hasnt done it has he? Oh I guess you know more than he does or care more about the government not getting overthrown than Putin. laughable
4)Yeah I know where you will get money selling nuclear technology to Iran or weapons to Syria. Great Country you got over there.
5)Sorry to have to BRING THIS UP AGAIN but you avoid it. What about the Billions in Loans that have been forgiven? Got any comment or just more communist propaghanda?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Sorry, I studied English... I still understand BBC or Sky better then CNN.
I speak different Russian then Muscowites, I was born in Leningrad, I speak in a right way, and I expect others at leat to spell correctly. Maybe I am a fossil :(
If someone gives to you - take it, if someone beats you - run. A basic rule.
But if it was up to me - I'll use another basic rule: don't take anything given, it means obligations.
Get off your grammatical high horse.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=defense
de·fense ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-fns)
n.
The act of defending against attack, danger, or injury.
A means or method of defending or protecting.
Sports. The act or an instance of defending a championship against a challenger: will box in his third defense of his title.
An argument in support or justification of something. See Synonyms at apology.
Law.
The action of the defendant in opposition to complaints against him or her.
The defendant and his or her legal counsel.
The science or art of defending oneself; self-defense.
(often defns) Sports.
Means or tactics used in trying to stop the opposition from scoring.
The team or those players on the team attempting to stop the opposition from scoring.
The military, governmental, and industrial complex, especially as it authorizes and manages weaponry production
Here is another rule for you, Dont take money from someone and then go making friends with their enemies.
And one more. I hear this a lot in the USA but maybe some less well off countries need to hear it.
NOTHING IS FREE.
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Example of "american aid": in 1999 we had a really good harvest, best in decades. Here comes "american aid": 2 million tons of wheat for free. Do you understand what did it do to Russian agriculture? No more such aid, please.
[/B]
Maybe so in 1999, but in many, many previous years there was low to no harvest when viewed on a large scale. The wheat was shipped and gladly accepted then. Don`t hold your hand out and it won`t be filled.
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I wish there was a planet the good folks could go, and let the angry ones here just go at it.
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Originally posted by Raider179
lmao you are comparing trade with aid. Lmao you do know the difference right?
You got the point. I kindly ask you, Americans, to stop calling "lend-lease" an "aid". It was a business.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You got the point. I kindly ask you, Americans, to stop calling "lend-lease" an "aid". It was a business.
I guess you didnt understand the difference.
Trade is when we PAY money to you for goods or services.
Aid is when we GIVE you money for NO goods or servies.
Hope that clears it up.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Boroda, my paranoid russian friend; had world domination been the American foriegn policy dogma of the 40's and 50's we (you anyway) would not be having this conversation.
If it was policy now, we (you) would not be having this conversation.
You had that plans of world domination, and it's not a secret anymore. Drop Shot plan included genocide of 8 millions of Soviet people in first 2 weeks of war.
We definetly had such plans too, but the stunning difference is that US "Drop Shot" plan didn't have winning conditions. It was a plan to attack and lose. It's insane.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Here's the deal.. Play Nice, we let you have neat stuff, levi's bubble gum and coca-cola. Stuff you guys must want, or you'd still be doing May Day Parades with cardboard missiles.
Play Not-Nice, we cut off the neat stuff and you have another revolution.
We are sick or revolutions. I witnessed one and it's enough, people like my Grand-Uncle witnessed two, and they say that with every next one the things only get worse. We can do pretty good without Coke - in soviet times we had Pepsi. But I always prefered "Baikal". Do you have "Baikal" in the US? :D
"Neat stuff" is neat only for companies that sell it. It's a true "engine of democracy". I can brew kvas at home - and it's a crime against Coke and "democracy".
Originally posted by Hangtime
Get nasty and start 'demonstrating' ala Moon is Harsh Mistress and you'll wind up wondering who the hell shut the lights off... right before you figure out there's nobody left to throw the switch.
Heinlein showed an absolutely vital picture. We can not only demonstrate. A rule is - if you unsheath a gun you do it only to shoot, not to scare. If you shoot - you shoot to kill. But I sincerely hope that our loonies in command will "give peace a chance".
Originally posted by Hangtime
We (and it must make you absoluety nuts to know this) have the upper hand militarily by such a large margin now that some nutball hawk republican Curtiss Lemay throwback in washington just MIGHT figure we could win a nuclear war. Which would be a true tragedy, because nobody wins if we get that far..
Same **** here. But we stopped solving global problems 15 years ago and we see no actual target for RVSN (Strategic Missile Corps). OTOH we have an official military doctrine: Russian Federation will use nuclear weapons against any aggressor that invades us or our allies. It's sad, but - so it goes :( You wanted Russia to be unable to wage a full-scale conventional war, so you got it.
Originally posted by Hangtime
As for the stingers in Chechnya, what about the RPG's in Iraq? Sure, stuff gets into the wrong hands via illegal technology transfers between 'third' parties.. but lemme ask you a question.
Soviet RPGs in Iraq? I thought they are mostly Chinese. I still didn't see any authentic Soviet AKM automat on TV footage from Iraq.
JFYI: USSR supplied mostly SAMs to Iraq as military trade, 90% of Iraqi debt to USSR was for oil drilling equipment. Unfortunately Soviet SAMs don't work without tarined and devoted crews, and Arabs are not warriors.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Just WHERE did all your missing nuclear materials go? And, just WHO's responsible for the world-wide distribution of russian surplus arms?.
Missing nuclear materials are already in the US. The stock of weapon-grade plutonium was sold to the US for some ridiculous sum like $80M.
There is no world-wide distribution of russian surplus arms. If you see a Kalashnikov - it's mostly from Romania or China. Funny thing is that China had an SKS as a main infantry weapon, not AK. Maybe because a soldier is unable to loose an SKS bayonet :D
Originally posted by Hangtime
Boroda, your country no longer has an 'elected' government (again).. it does however have a heluva problem with it's 'mafia'.
So, who's in charge there? Corrupt Criminals or Puppet Government?
You hit a weak spot here ;)
I don't care about elections: they are only a curtain to hide and justify crimes. I don't believe in democracy. I don't want an illiterate mob to decide how I must live. Sorry.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Perhaps you should look to the trangressions of your countrymen against mother russia as your nations greatest challenge. You need not fear the US, you should be very afraid of yourselves.
You are abslutely right. And I'll do my best to make them sorry for their crimes. At least as a "Red Blitzkrieg" warrior with a tomato in my hand. A ripe tomato against a $5,000 suit is sometimes more impressive then a 122mm sabot against Tiger tank's amour ;)
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Originally posted by Raider179
I guess you didnt understand the difference.
Trade is when we PAY money to you for goods or services.
Aid is when we GIVE you money for NO goods or servies.
Hope that clears it up.
We paid for "lend-lease". So - please, stop calling it "aid". It was trade. And USSR paid for it three times more price per any item then other "lend-lease" acceptors, like UK. In "business" terms it was not an "aid" but a robbery.
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Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah I saw that movie, Dr. strangelove right? lmao
I was a very bad student. We had to make an essay on some weapon class on the third year of university education, and, because I was the worst student, I got the last subject left after others picked up easy topics like "tanks" or "fighter planes": it was "missile launch positions". I wasn't frightened by this. I simply went to my Father and he lectured me for 3 hours about how the things are. A missile silo that's capable of withstanding 300kg/cm2 is real. It will survive in an area of tectonic earth movement after a thermonuclear explosion, it will dig itself out of ground being 30 degrees from initial bertical position and launch a "weapon" towards a pre-set target.
JFYI: 2.5 kg/cm2 is an excessive pressure enough to "reliable disable enemy human force". Compare 2.5 to 300... I can't imagine 300 kg/cm2. It's enough to bend armour steel like grass.
My professor carefully read my essay and asked only one question: why there's no source list? I answered that the only source is my Father - and he was satisfied. ;)
I hope you understand a difference between a "doomsday machine" and a precise weapon array that will be able to make a surgical strike against enemy after it gets hit. Even with no human operators left.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Boroda, one day you and I gotta get drunk in the same place at the same time.
;)
I'll be honored to pour a drink for You. Talking with people like You is a best advantage of using a global network for me so far.
Originally posted by Hangtime
p.s. it is an American right and obligation to mangle the english language. that includes spelling, punctuation and verbage. it seems to be a never ending source of aggravation for our cousins across the pond, and it drives euro and asian freakin nuttz.
..which is why we do it.
This explains a lot ;) I can write in "padonki" Russian, I used to do it here before "rule #16" so you and other non-Slavonic folks can't understand me using babelfish... But i preserve right Russian. I speak with a Southern accent, according to my roots (Ukraine and Don Cossack warriorship) - but I say "dozhd'" instead of Muscovite "dozhzhz" and so on.
And Russian spelling is at the same time easier and more complicated then English. You are happy to have a grammatically simple language, you don't have cases and other crap that makes Russian easy to understand but almost impossible to speak for a foreigner.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Conversely, and as a backhanded compliment, most americans do not have more than one skilled language.. and depending on who you talk to, even that is debateable. You, estel and several other euro's have a very good command of our quirky impossible language while we for the most part have no comparable knowledge of yours.
well done.
I appreciate your compliment, but I have to say several things:
1) I don't know any foreigner who studied a language of "potential enemy" for 9 (nine) years at school.
2) We still don't understand many things that have cultural background, like movie quotes - because even if we watched same films we saw them translated. I doubt that You saw any Soviet movies. I can speak Russian that no emigrant who left USSR before 1970 will understand.
3) I already said in a "War of the Worlds" tread that it's possible for me to understand Victorian English, but I will never be able to use it myself :( Russian is almost the same from 1850s, if you don't mean "argot" that changes with every decade, so i talk to youngsters as if they are ET aliens.
Originally posted by Hangtime
now, go grab a corrupt russian government offcial by the nose and kick 'em in the ballsac a few times for both of us.
I am anxious to do it, but it will mean revolution, and i'm sick of it, I already saw one and it's enough for me.
I'll probably do it late at night, at some expensive restaurant or strip-club door. You are probably right about a ballsac, hitting the head will not work, their heads can't ache, it's a bone ;)
Stechkin is much more persuading then a tomato. They will some day discover that we are eager to use Stechkins instead of tomatos... :(
Originally posted by Hangtime
yah paranoid commie martyr dionosaur. ;)
I am not a dinosaur, only 190cm tall and 90kg heavy :) And I am definetly not a martyr: my living conditions are much better then of most of American/European young (in fact not-so-young) men 32 years old, as me.
And I am NOT a commie! I was a member of Comsomol since 1987, but I never was a Party member. I am a Communist mostly because I sincerely wish "happiness, for everyone, for free" and I try to work on it regardless to any whoopee political doctrine.
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Originally posted by Boroda
We paid for "lend-lease". So - please, stop calling it "aid". It was trade. And USSR paid for it three times more price per any item then other "lend-lease" acceptors, like UK. In "business" terms it was not an "aid" but a robbery.
LoL YOU are the only one who brought up Lend-Lease.
Aid is free money such I as I linked to.
as far as lend lease goes, you didnt have to buy it. Stop blaming America for YOUR countries poor choices. Oh we so repressed you and yours. wah.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I hope you understand a difference between a "doomsday machine" and a precise weapon array that will be able to make a surgical strike against enemy after it gets hit. Even with no human operators left.
LoL you just described a DOOMSDAY MACHINE. It launches without humans having anything to do with the decision.
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Originally posted by Raider179
LoL you just described a DOOMSDAY MACHINE. It launches without humans having anything to do with the decision.
Can I ask you a personal question? ....just how old are you?
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Originally posted by Russian
Can I ask you a personal question? ....just how old are you?
28, you do see the part where he says, "even with no human operators left"? right?
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Originally posted by Raider179
LoL YOU are the only one who brought up Lend-Lease.
Aid is free money such I as I linked to.
as far as lend lease goes, you didnt have to buy it. Stop blaming America for YOUR countries poor choices. Oh we so repressed you and yours. wah.
Free money? It's a beautifull example of Western mindset. "Besplatniye den'gi" :D ROTFLMAO!!! :D
Yes, we didn't have to buy it. It only could cost us another million of lives or two out of 150 millions. Gold sent to the West probably costed more later. It went on Manhattan project.
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Originally posted by Raider179
28, you do see the part where he says, "even with no human operators left"? right?
Thanks,
Yes, I see that. Should that scare me? (it does not)
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Originally posted by Raider179
LoL you just described a DOOMSDAY MACHINE. It launches without humans having anything to do with the decision.
Doomsday machine in "Dr. Strangelove" is a device that is supposed to destroy a whole planet, a thermonuclear monster like a son of a 65 megaton charge tested over Novaya Zemlya in 1963. (1500km without radio for 3 days due to atmospheric ionisation).
I mean that our missiles will launch at designated targets. First targets are your missile farms in Norht Dakota. Then follow other places. ICBM is an only weapon against enemy ICBMs. If a "dead hand" detector receives a punch from an enemy nuclear warhead - it means that boiling soil into a glass in North Dakota is useless and it will switch to other targets.
:(
Then we'll have Chinese exploring what's left of Moscow and Washington. But no nuclear winter or other apocalyptic things.
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Originally posted by Boroda
During Manchurian operation Soviet Army defeated Japanese continental troops (1,500,000 men) loosing only 8500 men. Look at the map and see how far Manchuria and Korea are from main population centers.
We defeated the main Japanese ground force in 2 weeks, while US spent 3 years crawling around some god-forgotten islands. Learn from us, now it's still free.
(
Privet,
Do you have a link to that, preferably in russian?
thanks.
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Originally posted by Russian
Thanks,
Yes, I see that. Should that scare me? (it does not)
You asked my age and then had nothing to say, guess I don't fit into whatever stereotype you wanted to push me into huh?
Machines having the capability to launch nuclear weapons without human input? Makes my skin crawl.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Doomsday machine in "Dr. Strangelove" is a device that is supposed to destroy a whole planet, a thermonuclear monster like a son of a 65 megaton charge tested over Novaya Zemlya in 1963. (1500km without radio for 3 days due to atmospheric ionisation).
I mean that our missiles will launch at designated targets. First targets are your missile farms in Norht Dakota. Then follow other places. ICBM is an only weapon against enemy ICBMs. If a "dead hand" detector receives a punch from an enemy nuclear warhead - it means that boiling soil into a glass in North Dakota is useless and it will switch to other targets.
:(
Then we'll have Chinese exploring what's left of Moscow and Washington. But no nuclear winter or other apocalyptic things.
A nuclear exchange between USA and Russia would be the "End of the world"
Any machine that can cause the end of the world is a Doomsday device. And a machine that launches Nukes without a human decision involved is irresponsible and stupid.
But then again you don't provide links to any of the information you post so I doubt "dead hand" switches even ever existed in your country. Just more Soviet Propaghanda.
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Originally posted by Raider179
You asked my age and then had nothing to say, guess I don't fit into whatever stereotype you wanted to push me into huh?
Machines having the capability to launch nuclear weapons without human input? Makes my skin crawl.
I don’t even know how to push stereotype. :-D Your one lines writing style do not match age you said. I would have guessed you were much younger than that. It’s nice to know who I’m talking to and why that person asks proof of everything I say. ;-) I’m not trying to insult you in anyway.
(Sipping cold german beer in this hell-hot weather)
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Originally posted by Russian
Privet,
Do you have a link to that, preferably in russian?
thanks.
Nevermind ;)
I think I posted a translation of an article from Grand Soviet Encyclopedia about Manchurian operation on this Forum several years ago. It's hard to belive that Soviet Army did what it did. Japanese themselves didn't expect a punch across Gobi desert and Hingan mountain ridge...
Damn! Forgot that Yandex has all Grand Soviet Encyclopedia availible online! here (http://slovari.yandex.ru/art.xml?art=bse/00045/46900.htm&encpage=bse&mrkp=http%3A//hghltd.yandex.com/yandbtm%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A//encycl.yandex.ru/texts/bse/00045/46900.htm%26text%3D%25EC%25E0%25ED%25FC%25F7%25E6%25F3%25F0%25F1%25EA%25E0%25FF%2B%25EE%25EF%25E5%25F0%25E0%25F6%25E8%25FF%26reqtext%3D%2528%25EC%25E0%25ED%25FC%25F7%25E6%25F3%25F0%25F1%25EA%25E0%25FF%253A%253A3997300%2B%2526%2B%25EE%25EF%25E5%25F0%25E0%25F6%25E8%25FF%253A%253A7540%2529//6%26%26isu%3D2) is a link to an original article in Russian.
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Damn, linky not worky :(
Simply go to yandex.ru, choose "slovari" from a menu below a search form (or simply press on my link) and search for "Ìàíü÷æóðñêàÿ îïåðàöèÿ", then click on a link to a BSE article.
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Originally posted by Russian
I don’t even know how to push stereotype. :-D Your one lines writing style do not match age you said. I would have guessed you were much younger than that. It’s nice to know who I’m talking to and why that person asks proof of everything I say. ;-) I’m not trying to insult you in anyway.
(Sipping cold german beer in this hell-hot weather)
lmao 1 line writing style, you judge someone on the number of lines they use? Better pay more attention to what is actually contained in the post instead of how many lines a poster uses.
2nd of all I ask for proof because your 27 stingers in chechneya remark sounds like BS. I am skeptical, I asked for a link, twice I might add, and instead you came back with, "How old are you"
Nice try but when you make accusations out of left field expect someone to ask you for proof. Especially when you try to discredit the person who is asking proof of your accusations by making the insinuation that they are somehow Young and Dumb.
Now, got a link, or just wanna keep living in fantasyland?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nevermind ;)
I think I posted a translation of an article from Grand Soviet Encyclopedia about Manchurian operation on this Forum several years ago. It's hard to belive that Soviet Army did what it did. Japanese themselves didn't expect a punch across Gobi desert and Hingan mountain ridge...
Damn! Forgot that Yandex has all Grand Soviet Encyclopedia availible online! here (http://slovari.yandex.ru/art.xml?art=bse/00045/46900.htm&encpage=bse&mrkp=http%3A//hghltd.yandex.com/yandbtm%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A//encycl.yandex.ru/texts/bse/00045/46900.htm%26text%3D%25EC%25E0%25ED%25FC%25F7%25E6%25F3%25F0%25F1%25EA%25E0%25FF%2B%25EE%25EF%25E5%25F0%25E0%25F6%25E8%25FF%26reqtext%3D%2528%25EC%25E0%25ED%25FC%25F7%25E6%25F3%25F0%25F1%25EA%25E0%25FF%253A%253A3997300%2B%2526%2B%25EE%25EF%25E5%25F0%25E0%25F6%25E8%25FF%253A%253A7540%2529//6%26%26isu%3D2) is a link to an original article in Russian.
Its not working....just blank page from yandex.
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Originally posted by Raider179
A nuclear exchange between USA and Russia would be the "End of the world"
I have to disagree. Chnese will be still alive and happy with us killing each other. :(
Originally posted by Raider179
Any machine that can cause the end of the world is a Doomsday device. And a machine that launches Nukes without a human decision involved is irresponsible and stupid.
Please do me a favour and describe any device that can simulate 300 kg/cm2 (on a certain distance and over certain area, and, preferrably, involving tectonic earth movement) to trigger a launch. 2.5 kg/cm2 is enough to turn me or you into a bag filled with pulp :(
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Originally posted by Raider179
lmao 1 line writing style, you judge someone on the number of lines they use? Better pay more attention to what is actually contained in the post instead of how many lines a poster uses.
2nd of all I ask for proof because your 27 stingers in chechneya remark sounds like BS. I am skeptical, I asked for a link, twice I might add, and instead you came back with, "How old are you"
Nice try but when you make accusations out of left field expect someone to ask you for proof. Especially when you try to discredit the person who is asking proof of your accusations by making the insinuation that they are somehow Young and Dumb.
Now, got a link, or just wanna keep living in fantasyland?
A 27 what what? When did I post that? ;) It was about combat patches as others rephrased. I didn’t write anything about weapons because I did not read about that. I was reading memoirs about attack on Grozniy and there it said that terrorists had medic kits from US. The kits were provided by CiA…or at least that person who wrote so thought.
I do not provide link because A) I don’t have it ATM, B) its in Russian.
I just wonted to know age, that’s it. Is there anything wrong with that? For your age it seems you are very mad on Russia and anyone talking positively about it. Please do tell why someone of your age have so many grudges about it?
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Originally posted by Raider179
2nd of all I ask for proof because your 27 stingers in chechneya remark sounds like BS.
That question was adressed to me, not to Russian.
No links here. Only my word that I heard it on "Ekho Moskvy" right-liberal pro-Western radio back in 2000 or something.
As for me - hiding a military criminal and terrorist like Ilyas Akhmadov and giving him a political asylum is enough to show that your Homeland is hostile to me and we are on different sides of barricades in a "war on terror".
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Originally posted by Boroda
I have to disagree. Chnese will be still alive and happy with us killing each other. :(
Please do me a favour and describe any device that can simulate 300 kg/cm2 (on a certain distance and over certain area, and, preferrably, involving tectonic earth movement) to trigger a launch. 2.5 kg/cm2 is enough to turn me or you into a bag filled with pulp :(
Ever hear of computer glitches? Malfunctions? Hackors?
What about a meteorite that just happens to hit near the silo?
And like I said I doubt you actually have/had this system anyway.
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Originally posted by Russian
A 27 what what? When did I post that? ;) It was about combat patches as others rephrased. I didn’t write anything about weapons because I did not read about that. I was reading memoirs about attack on Grozniy and there it said that terrorists had medic kits from US. The kits were provided by CiA…or at least that person who wrote so thought.
I do not provide link because A) I don’t have it ATM, B) its in Russian.
I just wonted to know age, that’s it. Is there anything wrong with that? For your age it seems you are very mad on Russia and anyone talking positively about it. Please do tell why someone of your age have so many grudges about it?
Oh sorry since you were the one asking why I was demanding proof of, (I was asking for proof of the stingers) I figured it was you, going back and looking now I see you said combat packs. So I wasnt talking to you about proof. You dragged yourself into that accusation.
Secondly medical kits are far far different than weaponry. Though I doubt we would give any Islamic extremists any aid considering what they did.
Thirdly, thats why links are useful, keep misunderstandings from happening.
Fourthly, link it in Russian, Google will translate web pages. I prefer to read the actual links to the information than take the person who is making such claims at their word. (not to insult you)
On why I dislike Russia its simple....
"According to Russian media, the head of the Russian Federal Nuclear Energy Agency Alexander Rumyantsev will travel to Tehran later this month to sign an agreement to store spent fuel from Bushehr in Russia.
On Thursday, Rumyantsev said the two countries would sign a deal this month allowing Iran to get nuclear fuel from Russia for its reactor in Bushehr."
You want to give highly enriched uranium to Iran. That is unacceptable from a country that my tax dollars go to and then get stolen by your corrupt officials like this one.
The U.S. Justice Department is seeking Adamov's extradition for alleged involvement in fraud and money laundering, Galli said.
Adamov is accused of diverting up to $9 million (7 million euro) that the U.S. Energy Department provided Russia to improve security at its nuclear facilities, The Associated Press quoted Galli as saying.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/05/04/swiss.russian/index.html
I am by no means mad. I am disappointed in your country and your attitude toward what America considers an enemy. Wonder if the chechens could use a few nuclear reactors and how you would feel if we started throwing Highly Enriched Uranium their way. I bet your attitude about sharing nuclear technology would shift really quick.
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Originally posted by Boroda
That question was adressed to me, not to Russian.
No links here. Only my word that I heard it on "Ekho Moskvy" right-liberal pro-Western radio back in 2000 or something.
As for me - hiding a military criminal and terrorist like Ilyas Akhmadov and giving him a political asylum is enough to show that your Homeland is hostile to me and we are on different sides of barricades in a "war on terror".
Like I said complete BS on the stingers.
As for Akhamdov perhaps you can tell me what he did? He appears from what I read just to be the chechens "spokesman". What did he do?
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Originally posted by Raider179
Fourthly, link it in Russian, Google will translate web pages. I prefer to read the actual links to the information than take the person who is making such claims at their word. (not to insult you)
You sound like a were-fox from last Pelevin's novell with her 4-5 "internal voices" :D
Try translating this: 702kg (http://nogohujc.narod.ru/index/NOGO.HTM) with google :D
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Originally posted by Raider179
I am by no means mad. I am disappointed in your country and your attitude toward what America considers an enemy. Wonder if the chechens could use a few nuclear reactors and how you would feel if we started throwing Highly Enriched Uranium their way. I bet your attitude about sharing nuclear technology would shift really quick.
If you haven’t notice, I live in USofA. I’m also a US citizen and served in US military honorably. So you can stop climbing on that tree. My country is where I live, not Russia.
If Russia wishes to build reactor for them, then why does it bother you? Just because Commander of Chief said they are bad? How about going after real terrorists….like in Pakistan!
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Originally posted by Boroda
You sound like a were-fox from last Pelevin's novell with her 4-5 "internal voices" :D
Try translating this: 702kg (http://nogohujc.narod.ru/index/NOGO.HTM) with google :D
The history of the appearance of concept "NOGOKHUYTS" is contradictory and ambiguous. For the first time this term was sounded in the unestablished conference FIDO.
After its thorough analysis was accepted the solution about the creation of ekhi OF "02..kg.nogoyuuzhch, which exists and until now.
However, so that this after substance - nogokhuyts
By its roots (feet -?) (by khuYami -??) of nogokhuyts it departs deeply to Mongolia. It is known that nogokhuyts arose at that moment, when future Mongolian agriculturists worked in the fields of their great native land, gathering hay into the hayricks.
The unforgettable phrase, in vain be casten by someone of the students of the Mongolian college, became evidence of the generation of new concept in the life of Mongolians.
I have no idead what NOGOKHUYTS is and I didn't use google. but there is the first half or so of it.
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Originally posted by Russian
If you haven’t notice, I live in USofA. I’m also a US citizen and served in US military honorably. So you can stop climbing on that tree. My country is where I live, not Russia.
If Russia wishes to build reactor for them, then why does it bother you? Just because Commander of Chief said they are bad? How about going after real terrorists….like in Pakistan!
1)I could care less where you live. Your nick is RUSSIAN, You are defending Russia my statement stands and you speak as though you were born there.
2)Do a forum search for Iran and you can read all the info I have posted on why Iran is bad. brief run down for you though, (Attempting to acquire Nuclear technology through the black market, Pakistan's Khan, Refusal of the EU offer of light water reactors, Execution of children and women for crimes like having sex before marriage, adultery, homosexuality and the like).
3)I agree with you about pakistan but you know what else borders afghanistan and pakistan...Iran. They say they have made arrests but so far no extraditions or International bodies have confirmed anything.
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LOL, can you understand that?...I don't think so. Try to translate my sig....another thing that is untranslatable.
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A friend among strangers, a stranger among friends.
Close enough for ya?
What is nogokhuyts?
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Actually that's pretty good. What translating program do you use? WHen I tried it, it came up with gibrish.
About other thing...I'll have Boroda explain that. LOL
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Originally posted by Raider179
A friend among strangers, a stranger among friends.
Close enough for ya?
You must have some Russian-speaking person at hand, it's impossible to translate it that close with a robointerpreter. But anyway it's too simple and doesn't completely correspond with Russian original.
Originally posted by Raider179
What is nogokhuyts?
LOL!!! Nogokhuyts is a concept that doesn't exist in this reality, it's overwhelming and irresistable, yet unimaginable, azh akhuy n'mal! :D Amen!
(Please don't #16 this post, it's the only example of Mongolian language on this board so far as I think!)
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Originally posted by Boroda
You must have some Russian-speaking person at hand, it's impossible to translate it that close with a robointerpreter. But anyway it's too simple and doesn't completely correspond with Russian original.
LOL!!! Nogokhuyts is a concept that doesn't exist in this reality, it's overwhelming and irresistable, yet unimaginable, azh akhuy n'mal! :D Amen!
(Please don't #16 this post, it's the only example of Mongolian language on this board so far as I think!)
Yeah thats what it is, I have a Russian speaking friend sitting here. lol not....
Apparently its not impossible. But it does show where there is a will there is a way. We are not all stupid Americans as you would like to believe.
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It will be interesting experience to get you behind table and get drunk so we can have conversation similar to
-Do you respect me?
-Yes
-Let’s drink to that!
-Do you respect me.
-Yes
-Lets drink to that!
No one thinks you are stupid…come on…..stop having delusions.
:aok
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Originally posted by Raider179
Yeah thats what it is, I have a Russian speaking friend sitting here. lol not....
LOL! Must be a female, any man will be unable to translate that Mongolian jabberwokie stuff so seriously azh ahuy :)
Originally posted by Raider179
Apparently its not impossible. But it does show where there is a will there is a way. We are not all stupid Americans as you would like to believe.
Noone thinks you guys are stupid. We have to learn from you to be more pragmatic, not like romantics about "commissars in dusty helmets".
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Originally posted by Russian
It will be interesting experience to get you behind table and get drunk so we can have conversation similar to
-Do you respect me?
-Yes
-Let’s drink to that!
-Do you respect me.
-Yes
-Lets drink to that!
You described a typical drinking event :) After third galss it's all the same :D
My Father started to understand English after we had some vodka with Greg Guerrero (Leonid) and even talked, and he only studied French at school before the War ;)
Originally posted by Russian
No one thinks you are stupid…come on…..stop having delusions.
:aok
You always post faster then me - must be a ping-time difference :D