Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on March 22, 2001, 08:10:00 AM
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I've been here since 1979, and since 1990, we (manufacturing engineering) have seen bits and pieces of Boeing move out of state, and out of country. No surprise on this latest news of the HQ moving. I'm confident that the rest of Boeing will gradually move out of the state, and its no secret why:
-This state has followed the political policy of over taxation that California has followed, thus leading to more businesses finding 'Big Business' friendly states, ie a state that will give big business a tax break at the opportunity to employ their local work forces, thus drawing more internal Gov't revenue. Over taxation, with no breaks...
-Our transportation issues that Boeing has had concerns over have not been answered, sure, they put up a Billion dollar+ "lite Rail system' that only affects about 2 % of the total workforce in the state, but now that is the lastest 'joke' in our politics working for the people.
-The energy crisis shows the poor planning by both sides of the political fence, this state grew just like CA, but we catered to tree huggers and actually went backwards in providing less energy for the state by closing dams that produced power, and never planned for the expansion of business and residence, so now, we are paying the price.
Although I'm not affected at this time, I'm confident that all Boeing employees will be gradually over the next 10years, I've seen the Tooling division all but disappear to states like Kansas, where their Gov't is willing to take Boeing in without taxing them to death in exchange for emplying the local workforce. I applaud Boeing standing up to the politicians and saying "enough is enough"...and I'm more than willing to move, this state is beautiful, but the politics and taxes are overwhelming...can you imagine paying $380 a month ofr PROPERTY TAXES alone!? How about 8.6 sales tax on everything you purchase? Well, I do. I'm sick and tired of over taxation, and its time to move on...WTG Boeing, best move and best message you can send...over tax us...we're outta here!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Will you feel the same when they move to Mexico?
Not trying to incite you but that seems to be the trend now a days. Close factories in the US so they can have cheap labor in Mexico.
Our workers lose jobs and these companies wonder why sales are down.
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Heard that on the news yesterday and thought of you Rip. Hope it works out for you and your family. Don't know about the NW but California has created it's own problem with such high cost of living requiring outlandish salaries to compensate. Add to it the energy problem and whatever taxation, they are chasing the businesses out of the state. I appreciated this fact when I worked for my former employer with their corporate office in San Jose. They based salaries on CA standards which went very well here in low paid FL. They have since relocated to Denver after Liberty Media picked them up. Here in Fl we don't have an energy crisis (yet) or taxation issue, just an H2O one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
best of luck
Eagler
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Mighty1, they've already moved every major component on the A/C out of the country, nothing new there, Australia does the tail, Asia will be doing more wing majors, none of the fuselages are built here, basically, Boeing is almost already an 'assembler' rather than a manufacturer, we used to do EVERYTHING from the machining of parts to the assembly...not any more.
Eagler, Washington state is just an extension of California...we are now just as expensive, and heavily taxed. Think about this, in King county, where Seattle resides, the avg 1800 sq.ft house, 3 bedroom, 2 bath, avgs. $249,000....a quarter of a million bucks for a very modest house!
Politicians will get the message loud and clear when their state bank accounts run dry. In the mean time, they'll continue to stick their heads in the sand and sing "La La La, Im not hearing you!"
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Sounds like they might be moving up here to Colorado...
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Originally posted by Kratzer:
Sounds like they might be moving up here to Colorado...
The Head quarters move, which roughly is a very small % of the workforce (and soon to be smaller as they give 1000 pink slips out) has not been decided, but the potential areas are:
Dallas Ft.Worth
Colorado
Chicago
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WOW! Rip, a home that size, in a nice neighborhood, here in Texas is exactly half that price.
Sales tax is a bit wierd here. Dallas County pays 8.25%, while Tarrant County (its neighbor) pays 7.25%.
Sales tax on new cars is 6.25%.
Basically, we have state sales tax and counties can also impose sales tax on top of that, which is why Dallas County is 1 percent higher.
Then the counties also impose taxes on businesses based on the cost of the equipment to run those businesses. This is usually waived for large businesses, but us small guys get hit really hard.
It is really frustrating for me. AppLink is always re-investing in new equipment, which, as a result of those investments, it pays virtually no federal taxes, but between the county and city governments, AppLink ends up paying 10% of its gross revenue in taxes. These local taxes have no bearing on the income of the corporation, they are fixed based on equipment costs and property leased for doing business.
There are no referendums for these taxes and no way to get around them. The county and city governments can just set them anyway they like with complete autonomy as long as they do not conflict with state or federal law.
To me, this whole thing is very discriminatory. Big business gets the breaks, small businesses get screwed. There is no parity.
Oh puppies, I got off on a tangent. Sorry.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Rip,
Bid Kansas.
Kansas is really inexpensive. For $249K you'd be living in an absolute mansion on many acres. Shoot, buy a quarter section (1/2 mile square or 160 acres)for about $160K and build your dream house. Wouldn't be that much over $249K total.
The Great Plains, doesn't have the beauty of forested mountains or the serenity of an ocean view does have a beauty all it's own.
There's something about being able to stand on a ridge and see forever that has captured my soul. I'll never forget watching a huge thunderstorm approach and roll over us during an afternoon of wheat harvesting. It was a really humbling experience; Nature displaying its awesome power as we mere mortals crouched in pickup cabs. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Besides, the pheasant and quail hunting is excellent. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Come...you and your family will not be disappointed. It's Heartland America and a fine place to raise a family.
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Toad, I know, I lived in Minnesota for the first 18 years of my life..and visiti KC quite often as my sister still lives there...came >< close to purchasing 10 acres with a stream and pond running thru it for 18k in 1998 just about 45 min SSE of KC.
The thing I miss the most is watching those thunder-boomers roll in...what I don't miss is shoveling snow! Hell, I had to start cutting the grass here in WA in Febuary!
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Its really funny because the majority of Boeing workers are union democrats voting for Lock, Schell, Murrey, Cantwell and the likes.
I will just leave it at that.
Y
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Originally posted by Yeager:
Its really funny because the majority of Boeing workers are union democrats voting for Lock, Schell, Murrey, Cantwell and the likes.
I will just leave it at that.
Y
And don't forget about that McDermott!
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Rip - in Boulder County, Colorado, I've seen TRAILER homes being sold for $150,000. Last I heard, the median sale price of a house here is $300,000.
Dirty bloodsuckers.
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Originally posted by Kratzer:
Rip - in Boulder County, Colorado, I've seen TRAILER homes being sold for $150,000. Last I heard, the median sale price of a house here is $300,000.
Dirty bloodsuckers.
I might add that our friend, who lives within city limits of Seattle, sold her 35 year old 1500 sq ft. 3 bdrm, 1.5 bath home on a 160X80 lot for $450,000. Again, the avg. medium price includes all of King county, however, within city limits, that avg. cost doubles, from 249 to about $450,000 dollars for a standard home.
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Rip, Raytheon is in the process of leaving Massachusetts for the exact same reasons (taxes). Hundreds of thousands of jobs...
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And to reinforce my arguement:
Company threatened in 1991 to leave area by Alwyn Scott Seattle Times business reporter
Boeing has made no secret of its restlessness. For years, the company has complained of impediments here that have slowed its growth and driven up costs.
It was toward the end of a long speech to the Seattle Chamber of Commerce in 1991 that Boeing made its most severe threat to move.
Boeing CEO Frank Shrontz said it was taking the company as long to obtain permits and build new facilities as it does to develop a new airplane. He called attention to $30 million in mitigation fees Boeing has paid to local governments. The company had just finalized plans to expand its Everett facility to produce the new 777 jetliner.
The cost to lessen the community impact of the expansion added $50 million to the $1.6 billion construction price tag.
"It's hard to conceive that not many years ago(1966-67) Boeing developed its Everett complex from scratch in just 24 months," Shrontz told the Greater Seattle Chamber of Commerce.
Just two years ago, then-Chief Financial Officer Debby Hopkins hit the theme again, telling a chamber conference that Washington's business climate ranked 16th out of 27 states in which Boeing has plants and employees.
"To remain a global leader for aerospace - and a global leader for other industries - Washington has to rank a whole lot higher," she said.
"I'm not saying that we're on the verge of making decisions to move entire operations to other states," added Hopkins, who left for Lucent Industries after 16 months with Boeing. "But we hold our managers accountable for driving cost out of our system. If they determine these parts can be produced more efficiently somewhere else, they have the responsibility to recommend changes."
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Why don't they move to Oregon? We don't have a sales tax. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (Our property taxes are higher though.) What's even better is that I can go to any state and buy things, and if I show them Oregon ID, I don't have to pay their sales tax either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oregon, especially the Portland/Beaverton area has many high tech companies: Intel (guess) , Tectronics (scopes, test equipment) (sp), Sony (makes CDs) , Hyundai (dram) , HMT (hard disk platters), PSC (barcode scanners), Hewlett Packard (ink jet printer division), Agilent (spin off of HP, cell phones, white leds, etc), Nike (shoes), etc.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Not sure bloom, I'm sure they entertained the idea, but I'm sure it came down to the taxes that the local Gov't would levie on a big business would not be cost efficient, we do have Boeing of Portland, and they might have used that as a 'tax model'.
Don't forget, Dumb Dems and Repubs like to tax big companies, (remember, they are the bad guys! Corporate America!)
Smart Dems and Repubs,like those in Chicago and Denver, know economics enough to make their states enticing for big business tax wise, then proceed to tax the piss outta the workers that work for that company, or the smaller businesses that 'feed' off that big company.
Of course its not just one reason, but local taxes levied, poor energy planning among other intangiables have brought them to this point, and they are not alone:
Companies in the Western region have also been impacted. High-technology Internet
equipment giant Cisco Systems (NYSE:CSCO - news) said it would scale back plans
for expansion in California, partially due to concerns about electricity shortages.
Alcoa Inc., (NYSE:AA - news) the world's largest aluminum producer, said this
week it would extend production cutbacks at its Ferndale, Wash., smelter, allowing it
to sell back 281 megawatts of electricity for distribution on the West Coast.
Instead of running the smelter out West, the company said it would restart production
at an Indiana plant that had been idled since 1993.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-22-2001).]
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Kansas, the earth doesn't roll (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) when you flick a light switch the light always comes on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I was born in Brainard Mn, and lived in Fairmont,MN til the 8th grade (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Why don't they move to Oregon? We don't have a sales tax. (Our property taxes are higher though.)
I didn't pay $4000 in property tax last year... and besides... income and private property taxes usually aren't big buisness' primary concern... its corperate taxes.
Oregon offers some pretty serious tax breaks to companies offering to bring X ammount of jobs in. There are also special considerations for companies that have excessive capital expenses. For example, it may only cost $400m to build an Intel fab.. but it will cost $2.2b to put the necessary equipment in it. The capital expense isn't the property, but rather the equipment. With fabs that escalates very quickly.
They really don't offer anything that would help someone move a headquarters down here... not unless they were bringing some real jobs with them.
Also, Boeing has something of a reputation for layoffs during downturns... something that virtually every city in America would rather have associated with Seattle as in "Seattle-based Boeing is laying of one million people. Hiring is ramping rapidly to meet this goal." Better to have it associated with that even-wetter-than-Portland city.
Also.. who wants em? Fricking washington hippies! Er.. wait.. maybe Eugene will take em?
AKDejaVu
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Boeing should stay where they are and break their unions. Where are the workers going to go? Airbus? There are no other companies to run too.That would save them more in the end. Have you seen some of the bonuses and holidays these yoyos get...Replace them with hungry 18 year olds willing to sweep that floor for $12 per hour and 2 week holidays.
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nah they should come to Florida!
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ugh 1776... I lived in Lawrence for 6 months... It was 6 months too long.
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So I take it you flunked out of KU?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Eagler, Washington state is just an extension of California...we are now just as expensive, and heavily taxed. Think about this, in King county, where Seattle resides, the avg 1800 sq.ft house, 3 bedroom, 2 bath, avgs. $249,000....a quarter of a million bucks for a very modest house!
Rip,
That same house here would cost you Around $500,000 US, as for taxes, I paid 51% taxes last year so do not squeak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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!!! Heater !!!
(http://members1.chello.nl/k.determan/heater1.jpg)
Shit Happens All The Time
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Economic globalization, fun isn't it?
I have a hunch that ten-year-old Vietnamese girls will be building 747's in the near future.
"All your wing section are belong to us" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by blur:
Economic globalization, fun isn't it?
I have a hunch that ten-year-old Vietnamese girls will be building 747's in the near future.
"All your wing section are belong to us" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hehe, so true Blur! Wings are no longer considered 'proprietary' so they *are* going to offload the last majors that Seattle actually builds.
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Originally posted by Heater:
Rip,
That same house here would cost you Around $500,000 US, as for taxes, I paid 51% taxes last year so do not squeak (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ya just miles north west of Ripsnort I pay taxes like that. But after conversion to US dollars my house would be < 200 000. 40 year old house though.
Im sure it will all work our for Rip. He seems like the kind of guy that always lands on his feet.