Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on March 23, 2001, 12:16:00 AM
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Just a <snicker> post. Arkansas officials have recommended bannin evolution from school text books
http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/22/arkansas.evolution.reut/index.html (http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/22/arkansas.evolution.reut/index.html)
Some time ago a lead singer of a band answered the question "why does Arkansas not allow evolution to be taught?" with "someone has to flip burgers" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
This is pretty funny. Or sad. But more funny than sad, as the supreme court probably won't let this stand.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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hrrmmm.. slick willy was born in Arkansas was he not? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I see things like teaching creationism and other bible-only stuff in schools to be laughable. I guess some of those decrepit old farts in the gov. have teamed up with the religious yuppies in an effort to regain the power the church had during the middle ages (where 99% of the population was made up of uneducated morons).
GO USA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Why not teach children viewpoints from several different religions (taking religion in its literal meaning i.e. 'way of life')?
Surely it would be better to have a population who came to its own conclusions?
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That's fine to bring up differing points of view if the class is religion. It's innappropriate in a science class.
The problem, and the courts support this, is that any religious classes will lean heavily towards western christian beliefs. This is unfair to other religions and unconstitutional. Hence... the separation of church and state.
Oh... and we don't have a population that draws it's own conclusions. We have puppets of the main-stream media that simply regurgitate what they see on TV.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 03-23-2001).]
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Agreed sandman.
If I were in high school and my science teacher started preaching creationism... well, lets just say i'd lose all respect for that man and for the school itself. School is for learning FACTS, if you want to hear a spiritual approach to what-is you can go to your favourite church.
That teacher that stood up against preaching in school is a REAL teacher. <S> to him! He brings honor to his proffession.
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Eeek!
I seem to have some likeminded people here!
Aaaah, StSantaism is spreading. Today, my kitchen. Tomorrow, a virtual world.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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Whats the matter?? Different opinions frighten you and your prejudices???
BTW, when you are attending "science" class, ask your "respectable" teacher when it was exactly that the Theory Of Evolution was proven???
I mean, perhaps you are a descendant of a monkey(of course, i can't prove it), but some of us think we were created in someone else's image.
BTW, rock musicians poking fun at a particular State's intelligence is pretty funny. Especially since most rocker's haven't the brains God gave a frying pan........
Cabby
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heheh cabby it's good to see that rabid ultra opinionated bigots are as dumb as you first thought reading them in other threads. Come on cabby, tell us now how many assault rifles you own or what you think of people coloured differently than your sorry self, you would then prove how evolution has miserably failed, at least in your case.
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Hey, did anybody hear anything more on that skull they found the other day that is 3.5 million years old, and has a hell of a lot more in common with us today than the oldest they'd found so far, that "Lucy" thing?
It would prove all my theories about space and time travel.
Mk
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Takeda:
I'll spell it out for you in BIG letters(the kind you are used to in Elementary School)so you will be able to read it:
Y O U A R E A B I G O T E D M O R O N.
Oh, and a love muffin to boot.....
Have a Nice Day,
Cabby
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Hmmm.. let me think. Humans and chimps share all but 2% of their genetic make-up. WTG DARWIN!!!
Now have some priest try to prove we came out of nothing, or out of water, dust, a meteorite, whatever.
mk10, you have a link to that new skull? Sounds interesting. Lucy was one species of humans that lived in that time period, there might have been others still living. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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No, just saw it yesterday channel surfing CNN or MSNBC or something like that.
It was really weird because they said it didn't really have a lot in common with Lucy, more like our skulls are shaped today.
If I find some more on it, I'll post whatever I find. It really was pretty dang weird though.
Mk
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uh oh cabby, I reread my post and still find it much better, amusing and sarcastically insulting than yours... and this even though when my ancestors were hanging from some african tree, your's were having orgies in Mt Olympus.
Come on, you should do better, this is a flame war, I brought my flametrower, why are you still using that pea shooter?
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Quote:
"Hmmm.. let me think. Humans and chimps share all but 2% of their genetic make-up. WTG DARWIN!!!"
You offer that as "scientific proof"??? Think again. On second thought, try thinking at all.......
Quote:
"even though when my ancestors were hanging from some african tree"
Just how recent are these "ancestors" of yours.........
I too, re-read your post. I rate it a perfect "A+" for smugness, and a dismal "D-" for content or originality....
Cabby
When they named it "Political Science" they weren't kidding........
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 03-24-2001).]
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Science doesn't have all the answers... but that doesn't mean it has no answers at all.
At least it involves some kind of rationale rather than mumbo-jumbo written by people who didn't have a clue why it rains or why the sun is only visible for a part of the day.
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Pst cabby... i'll whisper you some secrets so that your pals at Redneck Creationism School, Shelby NC don't notice right away how pathetic you are
1. Santa (except in AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) doesn't exists, your parents actually buy your presents.
2. Evolutionism is backed up by facts, creationism by ancient jewish folklore.
3. Smugness is what makes a good flame post. I leave content for educated discussion with educated people.
4. This is my last post in this thread, so your nosensical subsequent response will be an everlasting tribute to your own dumbness.
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"You offer that as "scientific proof"??? Think again. On second thought, try thinking at all....."
This is too rich. What "proof" do you offer me that we ARENT descended from species that have 99% (just saw this on Discovery) of their genes exactly the same as ours? I mean, WOW what an ODD coincidence..right? Not to mention that no other species share that similarity with us.
Better yet, what do YOU believe we came from? Proof?
Inevitably, it comes down to facts vs faith. Which will you believe in?
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Yes, the 2% proof it is not more than a silly number than any sort of explanation.
When was the last time you have heard a monkey philosophize about his creation with his fellow monkey comrades………….never ,wonder why?
Maybe because they are missing 2% of our Genes?
Sure ,the 2% are the answer to everything what's in mans head.
The silly 2% do not explain anything.
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One of my co-workers became a "Jehova's Witness".
I found out they have a little book where they can find answer almost all "tough" questions people may ask them. He is a fine man but maybe not too clever...
I wonder what would happen if those guys could decide what schools should teach to childrens...
Guess people of Arkansas are wondering too ?
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icewind, its 1% (I was quoting the 2% from memory). And yes, 1% of genes do carry a LOT of information, enough to separate chimps and humans. And enough to prove that we do descend from them.
But hey, you want to argue that, go talk with any teacher or scientist. They will provide you with much more data on this than I can.
Staga: LOL! Now I know why those pests are so hard to get rid of. They buzzed my neighborhood so frequently we put up a "no soliciting" sign. They denied they werent soliciting. Finally, a week after the sign was put up the community put a lawyer after their sorry asses. Never saw them again. I miss shoving the door into their faces.. guess ill have to shoot down more c-47's with 303's to make up for such fun!
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Quote:
"Inevitably, it comes down to facts vs faith.."
And you put your "faith" in "facts".
The Theory Of Evolution is a "fact", right?? Because "everyone says so"??? Because it "seems likely"??? Or evidence "suggests" it's true??? Or, "it said so in my school textbook"???
Or such logic<sic> as a statement like this:
" And enough to prove that we do descend from them. "
Brainwashing is a terrible thing.......
None of you have any more idea of how we got on this planet than the "least clever" member of any religion. And it's a gut cinch you will leave this planet just as ignorant of the answer as when you were born.
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 03-24-2001).]
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Heya Cabby. Allow me to enlighten you a bit on your insistence on the word theory (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
it's as solid as the theory of gravity - both are scientific theories that have undergone peer review and are supported by mathematical models and empirical evidence.
Scientific theories are not your average who shot JFK theories. There's much more to it than that.
"I thought evolution was just a theory. Why do you call it a fact? "
Biological evolution is a change in the genetic characteristics of a population over time. That this happens is a fact. Biological evolution also refers to the common descent of living organisms from shared ancestors. The evidence for historical evolution -- genetic, fossil, anatomical, etc. -- is so overwhelming that it is also considered a fact. The theory of evolution describes the mechanisms that cause evolution. So evolution is both a fact and a theory. See the Evolution is a Fact and a Theory FAQ, the Introduction to Evolutionary Biology FAQ
and the Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution FAQ.
http://www.talkorigins.org (http://www.talkorigins.org)
If you do not wish to dig through all the "nonsense theory" invented for pure fun by scientists to make a name for themselves or to be blasphemous against God, the article here is well worth reading:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html)
It should clear your misconceptions about evolution, scientific theories and what we humans call facts.
It should also be equally clear even to the dimmest of readers that there is a clear difference between a science class and a class on mythology - creationism belongs to the second one. While interesting reading, scientifically, it is incredibly unsound and not really an alternative.
There is the option of saying "we do not know" regarding how we got to be where we are. The problem of course is that we have ample evidence for microevolution, and lots for macroevolution.
But for a school to NOT allow a subject that has a proven scientific validity and value is a step in the wrong direction
The more one learns about evolution, the more it makes sense - it is akin to learning about computers, for instance. To me, it used to be a magic box that I could do weird things with. Then I learned about the different layers, from the gates used all the way up to high level languages.
Sometimes some things aren't intuitive. That does not mean they are nonsensical. Of course, the opposite is true as well.
As a final note, the lead singer of The Sisters of mercy is much more well read than I can ever hope to be, speaks five languages and has written some quite interesting articles. Sarcastic and arrogant, aye, but not yer average idiot with a guitar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Assumptions, assumptions (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-24-2001).]
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Gravity is not a "theory".
Evolution is not a "fact". No matter HOW much you may want it to be. All the Discovery Channel/Steven Spielberg dinosaur/mammoth/caveman CGG TV shows won't "prove" Evolution either.
But even if i were to stipulate that it is, there is no proof the human race descended from monkeys, lemurs, alien beings, feathered serpents, coyotes, or anything else.
Rest on your "assumptions" if it makes you feel like you have a handle on creation, but in fact, you are just whistling in the dark just like everyone else.
Cabby
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Tac believe or not I believe in Evolution.
I say God is the creator of all things. That makes him to the creator of Nature and their for to the creator of Evolution.
The only real problem I have with Evolution is the way it is used in public, it seems to me that some people relate to it as some sort simplified welfare-teaching explanation for everything.
I do not doubt that we are related to chimps, but what is the statement of this exactly? Where do we go from here now? Can why stop wondering now…….about the Creator of all things?
It does not explain why we got touched, nor will chimp declarations comfort anybody's Soul.
Besides that theirs one point smart A.. Science can not explain, ….why Us and not the to 93% related Mouse. I will openly admit if Humans are striped of technology and everything the they have created and put back in nature besides any sort of living thing we have to realize that our (basic) emotions of our Soul are similar and sometimes the same compared to any living creature. But I can not help myself we have a suspicion that there is a some sort of unknown difference between our living flesh and the flesh of other living things. Maybe call the unknown God.
But the only thing we really know is that we know nothing for sure, be it as it is.
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Agreed Ice. However, teaching creationism as part of a teaching curriculum (in SCIENCE class for feks sake) is utterly moronic.
Not only are they pushing the belief of one religion into a multi-ethnic population, but they cover it in SCIENCE class!! I bet that if your kids were taught the Zulu creation myth in science class, and were getting graded in it/taught that THIS was THE way things happened... wouldnt you raise some kind of cry?
Why dont they start a modern inquisition while they're at it? =P
"And you put your "faith" in "facts".
But of course. What else would I put it in? I question the "facts" as easily as I question religious "faith". Happily though, my "facts" can be proven or disproven.
Would you rather I put my faith in creation myths that are so vastly different in each culture of this planet? I have a textbook of mythology lying around here, it has at least 42 creation myths from tribes in a SINGLE continent.All of them different. Compare that to the ONE concept that has a VAST base of evidence and FACTS, all throughfuly tested throught the "HOLY" Scientific Method and accepted by the scientific community of EARTH.
I wouldnt gamble on those odds.
If you believe in something that is not backed by evidence and has deep roots in religion, that is your choice. Science and Religion have always been very separate things catering to different parts of our minds.
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-24-2001).]
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Takeda do you and Cabby have some sort of history or are you just an amazinhunk?
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ew double post.
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-24-2001).]
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Quote:
"Why dont they start a modern inquisition while they're at it.."
I thought "they" already have. It's called "Political Correctness" as widely practiced in many institutions of "higher learning".
Say, believe, or even think the wrong thing and the Left-Liberal "Grand Inquisitors And Protectors Of Right Thinking" come after you with all the "religious fanatic" fury they can muster.....
Cabby
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"I thought "they" already have. It's called "Political Correctness" as widely practiced in many institutions of "higher learning".
Say, believe, or even think the wrong thing and the Left-Liberal "Grand Inquisitors And Protectors Of Right Thinking" come after you with all the "religious fanatic" fury they can muster....."
Explain please, I dont know what you refer to.
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Cabby, I have a Masters degree in Applied Physics, and I can tell you now that Gravity is quite definitely a theory as much as any other.
Also, Santa put it all together excellently.
Tac - Cabby sees communists everywhere, especially if they happen to disagree with him.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-25-2001).]
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Heh, perhaps I better explain to you Cabby, the difference between hypothesis, theories and facts as they are understood in the scientific world. Please, do not feel insulted if in this thext the authors refer to those dismissing such evidence as bigots, intellectually dishonest or whatnot.
I'll support my claims with references to leading biologists.
Let's look at the words theory and fact for starters. First of all, unless you're talking about an epistemological discussion, and are arguing that nothing can be known to a 100% certainity - not that you are, not that evolution is a fact, not that yellow submarines invade Ireland daily, unless you're talking about such a discussion, we can use what I will call a "ladder of probability".
On the bottom, you have the WAG - Wild Arsed Guesses. This is your basical Joe Schmoe "theory". Moving up a bit and into the scientific community, you can have a hypothesis - an idea that might explain a fact, but one that is not supported well enough to make it a theory. once enough evidence have been gathered, you have a theory.
Now, Laurence Moran defines a scientific fact as "In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent.""
Might be worthwhile for a second to digress and discuss the difference between fact and theory here.
Facts are what are. For instance, apples fall towards the ground. They'll do this regardless of whatever theory we construct to explain this behavior. When Newton's ideas were reexamined for instance, stuff didn't stop falling towards the ground and people didn't suddenly become airborne, pending the result of the reevaluation.
Theories, on the other hand, are well supported concepts, by logic, empirical evidence and the other tools in the philosophy of science. They're used as a mechanism to explain the facts.
And this is why evolution is both a fact and a theory. The problem is with the way we use language. The fact of change of allele frequency (little genetic thingies) in a population over time is just that - a *fact*. This can be proven. There are countless examples of this in the wild (and artificially created).
Now just *how* this is done, that's the theory.
Stephen J Gould has this to say about the subject:
"Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory - natural selection - to explain the mechanism of evolution."
Stephen J. Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981
This should make it clear that Cabby either doesn't know the difference between facts, theories, hypothesises and WAG's, as used by the scientific community, or that he is deliberately trying to mislead us.
So, it's a fact that evolution does occur. the mechanism of how it's done is a scientific theory - not a WAG, not a hypothesis, but a scientific theory.
More forthcoming if needed.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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FWIW, the theory of evolution and the concept of the Christian God are not mutually exclusive.
The theory of evolution and a literal interpretation of Genesis is.
As I said before, evolution deals with the mechanism - not why it's there. Opponents of evolution have a tendency to drag abiogenesis into the picture, which is a different area.
Let me know if I can help you further Cabby.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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Just a few who don't accept Evolution on faith:
"The Darwinian theory of descent has not a single fact to confirm it in the realm of nature. It is not the result of scientific research, but purely the product of imagination."—*Dr. Fleischman [Erlangen zoologist].
"It is almost invariably assumed that animals with bodies composed of a single cell represent the primitive animals from which all others derived. They are commonly supposed to have preceded all other animal types in their appearance. There is not the slightest basis for this assumption."—*Austin Clark, The New Evolution (1930), pp. 235-236.
"The hypothesis that life has developed from inorganic matter is, at present, still an article of faith."—*J.W.N. Sullivan, The Limitations of Science (1933), p. 95.
"Where are we when presented with the mystery of life? We find ourselves facing a granite wall which we have not even chipped . . We know virtually nothing of growth, nothing of life."—*W. Kaempffert, "The Greatest Mystery of All: The Secret of Life," New York Times.
" `The theory of evolution is totally inadequate to explain the origin and manifestation of the inorganic world.' "—Sir John Ambrose Fleming, F.R.S., quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 91 [discoverer of the thermionic valve].
"I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."—*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.
"I am not satisfied that Darwin proved his point or that his influence in scientific and public thinking has been beneficial . . the success of Darwinism was accomplished by a decline in scientific integrity."—*W.R. Thompson, Introduction to *Charles Darwin's, Origin of the Species [Canadian scientist].
"One of the determining forces of scientism was a fantastic accidental imagination which could explain every irregularity in the solar system without explanation, leap the gaps in the atomic series without evidence [a gap required by the Big Bang theory], postulate the discovery of fossils which have never been discovered, and prophesy the success of breeding experiments which have never succeeded. Of this kind of science it might truly be said that it was `knowledge falsely so called.' "—*David C.C. Watson, The Great Brain Robbery (1976).
"The hold of the evolutionary paradigm [theoretical system] is so powerful that an idea which is more like a principle of medieval astrology than a serious twentieth century scientific theory has become a reality for evolutionary biologists."—*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), p. 306 [Australian molecular biologist].
"The particular truth is simply that we have no reliable evidence as to the evolutionary sequence . . One can find qualified professional arguments for any group being the descendant of almost any other."—J. Bonner, "Book Review," American Scientist, 49:1961, p. 240.
"It was because Darwinian theory broke man's link with God and set him adrift in a cosmos without purpose or end that its impact was so fundamental. No other intellectual revolution in modern times . . so profoundly affected the way men viewed themselves and their place in the universe."—*Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis (1985), p. 67 [Australian molecular biologist].
"I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning, consequently assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption . . The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do . . For myself, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom."—*Aldous Huxley, "Confessions of a Professed Atheist," Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June 1966, p. 19 [grandson of evolutionist Thomas Huxley, Darwin's closest friend and promoter, and brother of evolutionist Julian Huxley. Aldous Huxley was one of the most influential liberal writers of the 20th century].
"Evolutionism is a fairy tale for grown-ups. This theory has helped nothing in the progress of science. It is useless."—*Bounoure, Le Monde Et La Vie (October 1963) [Director of Research at the National center of Scientific Research in France].
"As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?"—*Charles Darwin, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 139.
" `Creation,' in the ordinary sense of the word, is perfectly conceivable. I find no difficulty in conceiving that, at some former period, this universe was not in existence; and that it made its appearance in six days . . in consequence of the volition of some pre-existing Being."—*Thomas Huxley, quoted in *Leonard Huxley, Life and Letters of Thomas Henry Huxley, Vol. II (1903), p. 429.
"The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge."—*Albert Fleishmann, Zoologist.
"I argue that the `theory of evolution' does not take predictions, so far as ecology is concerned, but is instead a logical formula which can be used only to classify empiricisms [theories] and to show the relationships which such a classification implies . . these theories are actually tautologies and, as such, cannot make empirically testable predictions. They are not scientific theories at all."—*R.H. Peters, "Tautology in Evolution and Ecology," American Naturalist (1976), Vol. 110, No. 1, p. 1 [emphasis his].
"Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."—*Robert Jastrow, The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe (1981), p. 19.
"In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to `bend' their observations to fit in with it."—*H. Lipson, "A Physicist Looks at Evolution," Physics Bulletin, 31 (1980), p. 138.
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LOL Cabby, did you happen to stumble across this site:
http://www.wealth4freedom.com/biggestLIE.html (http://www.wealth4freedom.com/biggestLIE.html)
?
Nice copy and paste from that site (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
What is the scientific method? The scientific method is a well-recognized and well-defined series of steps used to acquire an explanation for observed phenomena. A preliminary generalization, or hypothesis, is formed on the basis of careful observation of
the phenomenon being studied. This hypothesis is then tested by further observations and experiments. If the information gathered
from observations and experiments over time satisfies the conditions of the hypothesis, the hypothesis eventually becomes accepted
as a scientific theory.
That's science. Evolution ain't side stepping it, my man.
Isn't it true that evolution as a theory cannot be observed or tested? Not at all. The very rapid evolution of viruses and bacteria can be easily observed. Example: Antibiotic resistant strains of many types of bacteria have evolved from strains that were very susceptible to these same antibiotics. Also, molecular test results and findings, in both plants and animals, support evolution.
Tataa. The theory of evolution might be debatable, the fact not.
You will have to do better than post a few quotes without supporting evidence.
Would be interesting if you discussed what aspects of evolution you think are faulty.
If you had some questions, they could be handled, along with an explanation.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
(http://valiante.plugnpay.com/scstore/graphics/Small%20Darwin%20Sticker.jpg)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-25-2001).]
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A pic better suited to keep discussion light hearted, which also better corresponds to my handle (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://valiante.plugnpay.com/scstore/graphics/Devil%20Fish%20Large.jpg)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-25-2001).]
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Tac:
Hmmm.. let me think. Humans and chimps share all but 2% of their genetic make-up. WTG DARWIN!!!
...so that makes evolution fact? I personally find I hard to believe we all came about from some greater being decideing it would be, I also have serious reservations with mah Grandpappy being a chimp.
Absolutely the most perturbing and laughable thing on this subject..err, IMO, IS A BUNCH OF SELF APPOINTED KNOWITALLS ARGUEING OVER ANCIENT HISTORY.
We have problems now and a future to deal with...sheesh.
SwampRat
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1%
That added to bundles of evidence make it an extremely probable origin. Nothing is ever 100% proven in science. 1% is close enough for me... plus the fact that no other specie comes that close to us. Like I said before, what are the odds?
Does it make you queasy that your far-fetched ancestors were quite probably chimps? Or that homo erectus, homo abilis, homo etc, etc do not portray a "climbing up the ladder" until they reached (evolved) into us? Personally, I find it fascinating! In a few thousand years, if we dont nuke or pollute ourselves to death, we will become even better!
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Ewps, I forgot that all those fossils were really placed there by white mice from a hyperdimensional existence who are waiting for earth to tell them what that $#@$@ "42" answer means (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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What is "Arkansaaa" ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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SwampRat said:
...so that makes evolution fact?
No, what makes evolution a fact is that it can be observed in nature. With some strains of bacteria, as good as in real time. Evolution happens, and that's a fact. the mechanisms described by us of *how* it happens is a scientific theory.
I personally find I hard to believe we all came about from some greater beingdecideing it would be, I also have serious reservations with mah Grandpappy being a chimp
LOL, well, technically speaking, chimps and humans share a common ancestor. That is, humans are not descended from monkeys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Absolutely the most perturbing and laughable thing on this subject..err, IMO, IS A BUNCH OF SELF APPOINTED KNOWITALLS ARGUEING OVER ANCIENT HISTORY.
I'm discussing the present. Evolution is happening as we speak. Unravelling our history is important for our identity.
We have problems now and a future to deal with...sheesh.
yes, so let's play a computer game instead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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Ah well, people used to believe that the sky was a blanket, the sun was driven across the sky by horses, that the world was flat, that the sun rotated around the earth, that flying was impossible.
If it wasnt for people who dared to question these relgious beliefs, we would have been stuck in the middleage, hunting witches, going on crusades and if we were lucky, might live till we reached the age of 40.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
www.56thfightergroup.org (http://www.56thfightergroup.org)
This is Yardstick, follow me"
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Stsanta... mmm SATAN... bud I'm going to convert to satanism (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
If Darwin heared this he would be turning in his grave. I mean he was attacked by the majority when he published his theory. Know it all starts all over again...
If you learn one thing about history, it's that everything repeats itself.
Bee out
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Everytime I turned into you last night, Santa, the ack at A11's Flack Factory would ping me! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I live in OurKinSaw! I picked up my sons science book yesterday and had a look. He's in the sixth grade. Evolution is briefly mentioned and as an example they used the evolution of the horse. I asked my son about it and he said they tell the class that everyone was created by God. Good for them! Our kids need a sense of purpose.
When I took Anthropology, up on the Fayetteville campus, our professor stated that there were no longer any 'missing links,' and that the evolutionary chain was complete in discovered physical evidence. He also said, "Put aside your beliefs and allow this tenet as fact. For the purposes of this course man has evolved from the lower primates."
Satan works in suspicious ways. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Voss
13th TAS
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Heya Voss (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Well, that was because you were alt monkeying. get below 3k (as I was) and it won't hit ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Was a fun fight with you, Ddriag and Baane. I did manage to reverse on you, you'd extend, come back, we'd repeat. Both of us flying our planes as the *should* be flown, using the advantages.
Then that damned Baane entered. Ugh. 2v1 wasn't too much fun, so when I saw that .50 lasers aimed at me, i thought "I might only have a slow rock, but it is a BIG one" and took the HO'. pinged ya but oddly enough the kill went to the ack (must have hit you somehow and my hit wasn't registered). Sorry about the ALT-F4 call; didn't know it was you or i wouldn't have made it, just seemed like it to me. Then stupid idiotic uberdweeb allied opportunist baane and his LA-7 buddy comes. ugh. manage to outmaneuver Baane, but then ddriag gains. ugh. Outmaneuver him (both were eager to kill me before the other did, so they came in fast, making overshots possible (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)). what then? try to extend, but Baane is now gaining! PINGPINGPINGCRACK engine oil in scissors as we got h2h. Fighting some more, engine out try to ditch, dig nose in mud. Great fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
About evolution. yeah, it's sad how it is taught at some schools. But, what can one expect when even some scientific dictionaries cannot get the definition right? Personally, in public schools I think the question of how evolution came to be should be, in a science class, asnwered with either scientific methods or "don't know". Or, if religion must be used, all existing religions should be getting equal time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
to me, having a shared ancestor with primates isn't bad. Evolution isn't derogatory. what it does to me is it makes me *appreciate* the complexity of the human animal, and all the natural miracles and wonders around me. A beetle. thinking about its DNA, and thinking about all i know about computer architecture (which can be very dry and extremely technical). What I know is NOTHING compared to the millions of years of evolution and complexity of the beetle!
I think evolution and various religions can coexist. it is quite possible that some god or another created or started evolution. With that in mind, theists are well off examining and being baffled by evolution; it can add to their spiritual life as it has added to mine.
After all, if one gains an undestanding of just how complex this thing is, and is religous, one will appreciate the works of the creator so much more. Hell, I even appreciate 68000 Motorola processors now, half worshipping the designers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
But, we all know, down deep in our hearts, that it is all the works of Satan. God and his angel cronies have been bad mouthing him from the get go. Satan, being a modest and forgiving deity, sees god as a lost child and will allow him to exercise his free will.
StSantaism now! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"
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Just wanted to bring up one point.
It is somehow amusing to say that RELGION is not based on Scientific evidence, or just say Religion it is just pure Myth. Strange, that in modern day interpretation we take the word Myth as something unproven or just to be some sort of fairytale.
But the astonishing part about Religion is that it is the oldest and the most everlasting Knowledge of the things that surround us outside and inside ,take that as a Scientific fact. Some of you might be wondering how I can claim that Religion and Myth are Scientific facts that are older Proof than any modern-day interpretation of Scientific facts. Well the answer is quite (simple).No one can deny that Mankind has bin thinking about Religious thoughts from the beginning of time till now, that's a fact.
Religion is the fundament of Cultures and the beginning of art and the never lasting search for Knowledge and word-literally the beginning of the Human mind.
The Bible is a fact ,the Koran is a fact, the Pyramids are fact ,the Kölner Dom is Fact, Kum is the Fact, the Vatican is a fact ,Acropolis is a fact, Ankor is Fact, the littler old church in your small town is Fact, the Cave Painting of Chauvet are a Fact, the Veda (Sanskrit, "knowledge") is a Fact, Mohenjo Daro is a Fact, Palenque is a Fact, the Lionman of Ulm Germany is Fact(the oldest work of art of Mankind that has bin found till now 30.000-40.000 years old).
a Cemetery is Fact, you could go on for ever.
(http://www.museum.ulm.de/sammlungen/loewenm_0.JPG)
The oldest work of art of Mankind the Lionman of Ulm is very interesting, because it reminds me of the teaching of the Totenkopf -Verbände. They say that a all Culture and Art spread out from Germany and that's why the Germans are the Übermenschen. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It gets even more bizarre what modern-day Archeologists have to say to the loinman of Ulm, they believe that the Lionman was created as some sort of Cultic-trophy as a symbol of defeat that our last cousins of Soul but not of flesh the Neandertals were defeated.
The strange thing about modern day Science and the Neandertals is that science is the ones who keeps deforming them as some sort of primitive Monkey like Creature.
If they had survived it would be very hard taking for the Human mind in every aspect be it in Religious or Scientifically to accept a equal Life form that's is not Genetically related to us.
[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Quote:
"Evolution is happening as we speak. "
Prove it.
Oh, BTW Daff, if you want to chuckle at stupid ideas and beliefs, watch some 1940's "Popular Science" movie-shorts....
Good thing there are quite a few of us left who don't accept all so-called "science" as "science" and /or believe everything we are told.
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by cabby:
Quote:
Good thing there are quite a few of us left who don't ... believe everything we are told.
Cabby
Then how can you justify your belief in a bible ?
Did you invent it ?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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"Prove it"
I dont have the sources with me, but:
Cranial capacity (and brain size) has increased in the past 3000 years. Your children will probably be a bit smarter than you.
The Apendix has no current use in the human body, yet in the past, our pre-homosapiens ancestors might have needed it to digest stuff or some other unknown function.Mother nature quickly gets rid of stuff that doesnt work, and our apendix is still there..and it may disappear in the coming generations.
If that aint evolution, I dont know what is.
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Icewind, that religions exist is pretty hard to dispute. That every religion is right is downright impossible to claim, since they're contradicting each other. So a smorgasbord where you take your pick.
Or rather, where your parents pick for you. 95% of all theists in the world have the same religion as their parents. Cultural mind memes.
Religion has been with us for a long time - but claiming that adds validity to [insert religion] is a logical fallacy. It doesn't detract validity either.
Cabby, any intro level book on evolution will show you examples of practically real time evolution in bacteria and viral strains. it's pretty hard to argue that the HIV virus does not mutate and change, or that strands of flu do not. Now, most mutation is *bad* for whatever species it occurs on. Natural selection is nature's way of ensuring that only good mutations are passed on to the next generation - a three legged lion with two tails isn't likely to last long.
So, what you can 8and probably vehemently will) attack is the theory of evolution - again, this is the mechanism by which we try to explain the fact. just like "stuff seem to fall down to the ground - let's have a theory of gravity to explain why". The theory of evolution is as much a scientific theory as is the theory of gravity.
And, do not assume that I'm following biologists blindly. Biology happens to be one of my interests and by now I'm sufficiently proficient in it to spot errors in text books now and then.
And, as fdski said, where'd your belief in the bible come from? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
So, evolution has lots of support. I wonder why you do not say "prove it" about your own faith?
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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and no consulting the little book. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Give up guys,
he has made his decisions already, don't waste your time anymore.
(...or Cabby is the Greatest fisherman I've seen in my life (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Back to the topic:
Whatta heck is happening in State of Arkansas ? Are they nuts ?
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LOL!! You "prove" evolution based on one-cell organisms??? You prove nothing. And don't confuse mutation with "proof" of evolution.
You Darwinist's are a hoot. The Darwin "bible" is a nice piece of unproven conjecture adopted as a "belief"by those in search of some explanation of that which cannot be explained.
Where have i heard THAT before??
Still laughing,
Cabby
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mutation is the basis of evolution.
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The thing I love the most about atheists is that if they realize that death is closing in on them they throw their modern day Scientific World-Order really fast over board, then they whine the loudest "Oh great God forgive me for not believing".
If you want some Proof go look at yourself. Do you really think in your self glorifying arrogance that the Cosmos would really give a dam if life (or you) exist or not. Would it make a difference for a rock if a living creature on the surface of Earth would realize that it is there or not, no!! So the conclusion has to be that we where gifted by a Supreme Being.If you insist on being like a rock that's fine with me ,so be it.
But why We? Why not stay like a rock? That's the paradox dilemma of our existence. And do not forget that Evolution did not invent itself!!!
Just because we can answer the question why a cell mutates ,we can not answer the question why it is there in the first place. Just because we can answer some really small questions, does not make us smarter.
I dare anyone to explain what was there before the Universe? Nothing? How can I think about nothing if it is nothing? If nothing exists how can nothing be there?
How can nothing be answered? It is not up to humans or anything living to answer this question.
Tac and StSanta I think you'd better go in a really hot Sauna or visit a active Volcano so that you are prepared for what will await you in your afterlife. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 03-27-2001).]
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Evolution is indeed a theory, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for it but no "Proof". The MECHANISM by which evolution is thought to happen is NOT a theory, it is a fact. Survival of the fittest or natural selection is an observable natural phenomenon. - You might as well not believe in clouds.
Alex
(we take part in a game which proves natural selection every day - take an early war MG equipped no armor low power canvas over wood plane up against a late war cannon equipped heavy amour high power aluminum monster and you WILL believe in survival of the fittest!!)
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Quote:
"mutation is the basis of evolution."
So, a cat born with 6 legs is a new kind of cat?? Or, just a mutant, an unfortunate cat with 6 legs.......Now if the cat sprouted wings, or a very large, fully developed brain, now THAT would be news.
"Survival of the Fittest" or "Natural Selection"? True, that's the fundamental law of Nature. For animals and plants.
Some of us think human beings are a little more special than your garden-variety chimpanzee, white-face steer, or cocker spaniel.
However, "Social Darwinism", as it pertains to human beings, is somehow so Fascist, so Godless, so Holocaust, so pointless.......
Some of you may think you "evolved" from some ape(which evolved from a squirrel, which evolved from a frog, which evolved from a fish, which evolved from a snail, and other such absolutely-no-proof speculation) and are no different from, or any better than, any other animal in creation, but i don't. And until irrefutable evidence is presented to prove otherwise(i'm not worrying about THAT ever occuring)i'll continue to think so.
To me, Evolution and Darwinism are precursors to Eugenics, the devaluation of human life, and ultimately mass murder. And i despise "Evolution is a Fact" propaganda.
Cabby
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Cabby, when the fittest survive - something you have agreed happens - what is it they survive to do?
They survive to pass on their genetic material to the next generation - they pass on those things that make them fit. Your cat with six legs is indeed unfortunate, it will probably die without passing on the "six legs gene" thus no more six legged cats. However another cat - with a gene for, lets say, slightly better night vision, has an advantage. It is a better hunter, can catch more food, grow larger, be stronger, win more fights, mate with more females and thus pass on the "better night vision" gene to it's children. Extend this over millions of generations and you end up with tigers and housecats - and, indeed humans and chimpanzees.
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Ice, you're using the old "there are no atheists in foxholes" fallacy. http://www.infidels.org (http://www.infidels.org) has a list of atheists who served in wars and remained atheists.
Being scared of not living is no precisely a compelling argument in favour of theism - if anything, it shows the tendency of humans to make irrational decisions when under pressure.
I've done some stuff that could have killed me, and it hasn't made me more or less religious. I've accepted that all I have evidence for is this life and once it is gone, hoping for something else is wishful thinking at best.
Cabby, you do not seem to grasp even the simplest concepts of evolution, yet you blast it with a fervour, clinging to your bible.
Homo sapiens sapiens is an animal species. the same laws and mechanisms applying to other species applies to us - we do not sit on a golden throne with special laws.
Let me explain to you by using a very simplied example that you might be able to understand.
Mutation is how change occur. Natural selection is the decider of which mutations are carried through to another generation.
The very rapid life cycle of virus and bacteria make 'um good objects of studies - of course, you can use fruit flies too, but then you have to wait considerably longer.
Your idea that all species were on earth from the get go and since some have been killed while others have lasted until today is ignorant. your claim of those who've studied the theory of evolution being blind followers is ironic, considering how you follow a collection of works from humans that is less than 2000 years old and written centuries after a poor guy got nailed to a piece of wood for saying that people were meanies and should treat each other better.
But, you serve well as an example - every time I want to show someone that there are people impervious to facts, i can point at you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Thank you for providing me a source of laughter.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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I say Neanderthal lives with us even today! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Look around you. Not everyone has the intelligence to fly online flight sims! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) See, Santa is just playing the role of Devil here. It is his intention to befuddle your minds with scientific data, when all you need is belief!
God made a great thing called man. Man (created man that is) mated with Neanderthal (evolved women in this case). No reason to kill breeding stock after all (no matter how ugly they still keep you warm). So, we are left with a wide range of morons! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The only power devined upon man is the knowledge of Good and Evil. Every other sense you have can, and is, fooled every day.
(Don't take this any more serious then Santa's tripe! "It's just a model.")
What's going on in Arkansas? In the cities the division of classes has created a large gap in social ethics. The lower class troublemakers create crystal meth (crank) every where that they can (car trunks, graveyards, garages, and caves). The poor ethical people live on in fear and social isolation, but are often untroubled with their lot in life. The middle class lives in ignorance and believes themselves safe from harm, and consider themselves ethically pure (some screw up, too). The rich get richer and pump money into rich people activities like University Complexes, and food drives. The Middle Class and the Rich sometimes get together to help the needy and achieve their salvation. There are way too many of all of the above! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Ain't it the same everywhere?
Racial profiling is alive and well. Politics are at play as well, but we won't go there.
I prefer the country life. My kids go to a good school where they are taught to be liberals (yeech!), but outside of that they are getting a good education in nature. We fish, we fly, we swim, we ride horses, we hunt, and yes we enjoy life! Arkansas can be a great place to relax, but only if you can get the real world out of your head.
Then there's the old man out be "Superior Wheels and Castings" that squeaked to high heaven about us flying R/C Helicopters where he could see them through his binoculars (must be a bird watcher). He got really nasty and squeaked and whined and moaned and groaned, until the land owner told us R/C was out the door. Now I have a $4000 toy that I can't fly anywhere.
Was that you Santa (aka Satan)?
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Voss
13th TAS
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cabby drop it, Christianity is based on faith more then anything and not facts and thats why so many people have a hard time beleiving in it...People fear or don't beleive what they cannot see, therefore they laugh at others who have the guts to have faith in something. Even if God is not real(oh and you better beleive he is) what do you as a human being have to lose? If there is no after life oh well no biggie, if there is you have eternal life in Heaven with the Creator himself...If you don't accept him and there is a God, you just lost big time, you are in Hell for eternity (eternity think about that will you, never ending forever no end etc..)burning and suffering..I don't know about you but hehe thats one gamble I sure won't lose...Anyhow, cabby you cannot sway them just sow the seed and eventually smoeone will harvest it. Don't forget the seed parable (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). Anywho, flame away guys, but the day of reckoning is coming, and I do feel sorry for you.
Pup out
P.S: I can send you a book stating all the reason why evelotion is not true if you like..
[This message has been edited by Pup (edited 03-28-2001).]
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ok so really you base you belief in god on fear of punishment in the hearafter.
what a sad way to go thru life cowerdice dictating your eternity.
just seems like a crappy eternity to me.
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Voss, if god works in mysterious way, I work in quite open ones (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
He wasn't a birdwatcher. Til I spotted the opportunity. he was blind as a bat - til Igave him supervision.
Have fun with your toy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Cabby, don't you know it just aint k3\/\/l to be standing up for creationism? Fortunately I gave up cool when I got outa high school. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I believe in creationism, ie. God. I don't have time to post all my research, as I have a job here and not much time. Although I backslide all the time, I believe the teachings of Jesus Christ are true.
There. Slam me, I can take it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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You can believe anything you want Hblair, Cabby, even St.Santa.
The thing here is, people are debating over a matter of science vs a matter of faith. The 2 will never agree. One is based on evidence and logic, the other one on tradition and spritual beliefs.
IMO, religion is a tool. People have used it for thousands and thousands of years to gain power, excersise power, comfort themselves in tough situations, be one with the universe, explain the unexplainable, etc. That these tools have produced amazing results and advances in sociological thinking and in moral grounds, it is their greatest achievement.
I have read the bible, budhist texts, shinto scriptures, a bit of the koran , jaininst texts, and a lot more. The CONCEPTS you gain from them are truly amazing. I just sift throught the creation stories or how-to-worship guides in those texts and find the ideals and basis behind those religions.
You should try it, you may find the greatest legacy of the ancients there.
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Can't resist stirring the pot little more. For a fun read you people might want to visit http://www.hedning.no/hedning/arkiv/cookies/ (http://www.hedning.no/hedning/arkiv/cookies/) . It's full of gems (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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SageFIN
"I think I´ll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don´t
believe in Gosh too, you´ll be darned to heck."
---
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Now this is rich...
I am a Mac user and flight sim enthusiast who doesn´t have the pleasure of playing AH. As an exclusively WB flyer by necessity, I am naturally incensed by the systematic misinformation and arrogance appearing on this board regarding my favorite (and only) flight sim, WB. It is only comparable to the equally systematic misinformation and arrogance appearing on AGW regarding this sim, AH.
So I was naturally delighted by brave souls such as cabby, bravely and explicitly setting some facts straight over here (There are a few of you AHers performing the same necessary function on AGW).
And today...
My heartfelt congratulations to StSanta for one of the most comprehensive, clear, and respectful explanations of the absolutely undisputable fact that all living organisms are part of a constantly evolving, common family which shares the same origins.
For essentially religious reasons (damn them once again) some people manage to completely suspend their natural capacity for reason, which is precisely what distinguishes us from the rest of the animal family.
And to paraphrase from the French:
"Man is neither angel nor beast, but he becomes a beast when he thinks he´s an angel"
Things like faith, or creation, or the meaning of life, or the existence of god and our own uniqueness and spirituality, have no relevance in this debate and do not contradict evolution, a proven fact, in the least .
The reasons have been expressed by StSanta much more clearly than I could ever do. Sorry Cabby, you are very, very wrong this time. And after having been right so many times, albeit on a different subject!
Cheers
figaro
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Quote:
The thing I love the most about atheists is that if they realize that death is closing in on them they throw their modern day Scientific World-Order really fast over board, then they whine the loudest "Oh great God forgive me for not believing".
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When I say I believe in creationism, I don't mean I know exactly how all species came about. The bible may have simplified it for us in the 'seven days' explanation. Perhaps some evolution is involved.
Sage, apparently the guy that put that page together evolved directly from neandrathal <sp?>. He ever heard of linking pages? That ho takes 5 minutes to load.
Some of it's funny, but seems like he's trying a little too hard. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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QUOTE:
The thing I love the most about atheists is that if they realize that death is closing in on them they throw their modern day Scientific World-Order really fast over board, then they whine the loudest "Oh great God forgive me for not believing".
_____________________________ _______________
Sorry for the double post. (gotta watch which buttons ya click (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) In response to the above quote I can only say that, for me, it was exactly the opposite. I tried real hard to be a believer right up to the point the folks all around me were falling to the rounds of the "Godless Commies" and it looked like my time was soon to come. Decided right then and there that if there was an all loving, all powerful, One he had a perverted sense of humor regarding mankind that I couldn't hope to comprehend. So I quit trying. And the longer I'm "away" the easier it is to see the "spin" applied to every day occurrances by peoples' religious paradigms. Nope, ain't no fox-hole Christian or death-bed confessions going on here.
GronK
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yes I do fear Gods wrath in the afterlife I also know that I am forgiven for everything I had done. LOL Go through life letting "cowardice dictacing my life" LOL, oh man towd you are a funny guy..
Gallan out
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"The thing I love the most about atheists is that if they realize that death is closing in on them they throw their modern day Scientific World-Order really fast over board, then they whine the loudest "Oh great God forgive me for not believing"
Ironically, that only applies to those who come from a god-worshipping background. I wonder what atheists from Hindu, Buddhist, etc backgrounds say when they die.
Hmm... to each his own.
In any way, why worry? You WILL find that out eventually.
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The strange thing most western people nowadays is that they like to deny, despite all scientific Knowledge we have, that the conversion rate to other Religions like Islam(especially in America) are growing rapidly. Strange sects and other Occult believes are emerging up all over the place. Anyone wonder why?
I know it is not very modern to say this, but as far as I am concerned one of the greatest gifts that Man(Men) has received is the burning raging hellfire in his head. It is the strongest and the most intensive emotion we will ever have. It is the Paradox link between our Flesh and our Soul and it is a thin thread that links us to God.
Only a fool can claim that God can be subjected be any sort of knowledge!! Even Religion is not more than a small glimpse at the Gate.
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Quote:
"Cabby, you do not seem to grasp even the simplest concepts of evolution, "
The "concept" YOU fail to realize is Evolution is not a fact. To claim otherwise is just blowing smoke up somebody's a**.
Until you can PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt Evolution is a FACT(something you CANNOT do), you have no more intellectual(or scientific for that matter) authority in your BELIEFS than some New Age hippy-dippy crystal worshipper.
And THAT's a fact, Jack.
Now take your "i'm-so-superior-to-you-ignorant-believers-in-the-supernatural" attitude and "evolve" an open, questioning mind.
Cabby<show-me-the-money>Cabby
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But there are large amounts of indications which make evolution as a concept a very likely hypothesis. These indications are generally facts themselves (i.e. fossyls etc.) the concept they could support not though. On the other hand regarding the concept of creationism, there are no indications whatsoever which support or even vaguely point to the validity of this belief.
So I don't say that creationism is wrong and evolution is right (very simply put) but evolution is more likely to resemble the truth behind our existence than creationism. This because the last -ism is as much supported as the philosophy of the New Age hippy-dippy crystal worshipper. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S!> to all
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Thud1/Bies
Bring the Hurricane (MKIIC) to AH! (together with the Invader!)
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Quote:
" evolution is more likely to resemble the truth behind our existence than creationism. "
In YOUR opinion. And that's all it is, in FACT, your opinion.......
Cabby
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I ignored this thread for the longest time until tonight. I have to say I am impressed with some of the statements that have been espoused, on both sides of the argument.
The one thing about faith is that it is based on faith. There is, by definition, no way to prove or disprove faith. If there was it wouldn't be faith. It would be something else.
Having said that, I am not against faith. I do not dispute the positions of those who are based on faith, unless that faith is misplaced. Like the faith in "luck", "chance" and tea leaves.
My position on the creation argument is I think both sides are right. I feel that neither side is an exclusionary position. I base this on the premise that science is simply a regimented method of examination. It does not necessarily start from scratch. It examines what "is" as observations, then postulates what "could be" and experiments to prove or disprove their postulation. The results of their experiments are additional "observations" as they perceive them.
The creation of life based on a faith position does not preclude the basis of a evolutionary existence.
Some fundamentalists argue that the world was created in 6 days. Since the earth was created as a part of that 6 days it was done before there was a 24 hour day. Who is to say how long the day "is" for God? perhaps a "day" for God is a long stretch of millennia in our human time. After all God does have eternity to deal with his existence.
Genesis indicates that man was created from clay in God's likeness. Sounds like creating life from inorganic matter to me. Similar to the evolution side where chemicals swirled and "spontaneously" became life when the conditions were right. Could that have not been God's handiwork? Same for the "big bang" theory of the start of the universe. If there was a big bang, who pulled the trigger?
I feel, and this IS my opinion, that God has created his wonders and they didn't have to follow exactly the specifications of a 2000 year old document that has suffered many revisions and translations. I do not see anything that says God didn't or couldn't use a "scientific" method in his creation. It was his position and he could do it any way he wanted. After all, who was there to tell him otherwise.
In examining several belief structures of other societies I find there are many creation stories. You supply the word fact, fiction or theory as you wish, as for me I cannot say they were not divinely inspired since I wasn't there. They mostly all indicate there was some kind of "divine" intervention. With all the similarities there just might be a grain of truth to them.
That choice to believe about which theory of how we came to be is your choice. You must have faith in something even if it is only in yourself. Eventually you will come to face the possible answers to all your questions as you leave this orbiting ball of matter. (minus your corporeal self) Whichever belief you have will be "proven" to you at that time. Enjoy.
Personally I think that God's "mysterious" ways could very well be the "scientific observations" we are seeing with the abilities our creator gave us to see them with. The universe had to start somewhere and no one here was there at the time to claim all certain knowledge.
Mav
PS I hope this made sense to you all. I grasp it but don't know if I explained what I grasped that well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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our professor stated that there were no longer any 'missing links,' and that the evolutionary chain was complete in discovered physical evidence.
He was lying. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Geesh Cabby, I've just, in plain English, shown you examples of how evolution is a fact AND a theory.
I've easily dispelled the creationist crap that states that all species were in place on earth from the get go and some just have been here longer than others.
the next time you have goose bumps; consider this. In furry animals (the best kind!), there are small tiny things that raise the fur so it stands straight up. This traps air, which is a great insulator. So, doing this keeps ya warm. if you have fur, that is.
If you're mainly fur-less, like humans are, it just looks funny and does little good.
but, i guess God put it there in humans to to a) make us make wrong deductions looking at naimla life around us and b) because he has a great sense og humour.
Next time you make great use of your appendix, let me know.
We got a lot of DORMANT grabage gens in us, and features that served, but does not serve, a purpose. The goose bumb thing and the appendix are the two most obvious, in your face ones.
But I'll accept the explanation that god has humour.
Oh, btw, perhaps you've watched too many dino movies when you were young. Humans and dinosaurs didn't coexist.
If you wish, i can provide you with references to *observed* cases of speciation. key word is observed. It can get pretty technical this, but if you want to have references, lemme know.
I will require the same of you, however.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Santa don't you know the appendix has a spiritual purpose that you can not measure in any way? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Funked is surely right, I was always taught that the appendix was the repository of the soul.
:-)
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The more i see the less i believe.
Cabby, beside your believings. What do you think how many things in your "book of facts" are originally from other religions. What do you think how many holy persons in the bible are originally gods of celtic religions. And so on.
The bible is nothing more than a mixture of history + well thought rules how a society should work.
Lem
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Originally posted by Macchi:
The more i see the less i believe.
Cabby, beside your believings. What do you think how many things in your "book of facts" are originally from other religions. What do you think how many holy persons in the bible are originally gods of celtic religions. And so on.
The bible is nothing more than a mixture of history + well thought rules how a society should work.
Lem
Machii,
I sure hope you got your asbestos undies on!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Mav
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Ahh yes, what a lovely little name-calling fest.
I think I'll abstain.
Except to paraphrase Robert Heinlein a little. "Who's right and who's wrong? Eventually we'll all find out.".
I take great comfort from my beliefs. Belittle them if it makes you feel better. It certainly doesn't prove your enlightenment or your intelligence. Greater men than I have both believed and disbelieved. And in many things. Airs of superiority wont change my mind.
But at the end of the day, there will be a way to prove who's right. Call it my "toy" if you will. But your disbelief is just as much a security blanket as my belief is.
"There is more things in heaven and earth Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Originally posted by yaffle:
Funked is surely right, I was always taught that the appendix was the repository of the soul.
:-)
Oh shoot !!! Mine was removed !!! I'm doomed !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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A man once called out to the universe,
"Sir! I exist!"
"That fact however" replied the universe, "does not create in me a sense of obligation".
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Okay guys, forget about all this name calling and arguing. I am definitely on the creationism side but I'm not going to attack anyone for having a belief. I just have one question for the evolutionists out there:
"How did life begin?"
Ignoring all the questions that come up about evolving etc this is the heart of the debate. I suggest that you all try reading up on this question and seeing how many facts you can actually find that answer this question. No scientist has ever been able to prove any theory about the origin of life.
Simply put: creation answers the question, science cannot.
Okay, feel free to attack my reasoning now, personal attacks are not required (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
(edit ===> changed last sentence)
[This message has been edited by wlfsbane (edited 03-29-2001).]
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wlfsbane, that's an entirely different field known as abiogenesis.
The short answer to that one is "we don't know really but we got some ideas that have some support".
And that's as far as some go.
But you have to have a VERY big leap of faith if you want something complex being created; the creator is likely to be even more complex; even if it isn't, you still run into the problem of infinite regression, which is hard to get around if one applies the same rules of discussion to oneself as to the dude one is discussing with.
i.e someone could say "god created the universe", and be asked "who created god?"
An answer would be "god has always been" which is as satisfactory an answer as "The invisible pink unicorn has always been" or even better
"how do you know life has not always been?"
Theologians have tried very hard to deal with the problem of infinite regression; some explanations are better and more well thought out that others, but none are coherent enough to deal with the problem.
So, in the absence of information and data, the rational man would say "I do not know", not "God did it".
The latter adds a further problem; the onus of proof rests on the shoulders of the claimant. Scientists are working hard trying to understand abiogenesis, with mixed results. Nothing conclusive enough to be a proof in any way; hypothesises are abound.
Theists have their set answer, but aren't working on supporting it, especially those theists who consider faith in god or gods an essential part of their belief system.
I'd urge theists to examine why you have the particular faith you have. 95% will have a religious conviction very similar to their parents, meaning it's a "mind meme" as Dawkins put it or "culturally inherited trait" in less offensive terms.
I, for one, am certain that the environment in which someone grows up is a major factor in deciding what, if any, religious faith that someone ends up having.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Originally posted by StSanta:
But you have to have a VERY big leap of faith if you want something complex being created; the creator is likely to be even more complex; even if it isn't, you still run into the problem of infinite regression, which is hard to get around if one applies the same rules of discussion to oneself as to the dude one is discussing with.
You make a very good point, however I believe that it is just as big a leap of faith (if not bigger) to believe in theories put forward by scientists as it is to believe that there is a higher being than us humans that actually designed us.
How difficult is it to imagine any one of the simple things around us (house, car, watch) spotaneously appearing or evolving from the materials around it? The universe (and especially the life here on Earth) is infinitely more complex than a house, car, watch etc but it's okay to think they just formed themselves??
I respect your point of view StSanta, you are entitled to your beliefs just as much as anyone else. I think we will agree to disagree, yes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Interesting thread guys...pity about the name calling though. Hope there aren't too many bruised opinions after this. After all, this debate has been going on for some time now (about 6000 years?). Just remember that both sides need to reason, not to attack each other personally heh?
That's my $0.02 (and then some).
wlfsbane
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wlfsbane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Well, your argument is that of the Watchmaker; i.e if you saw a watch lying on an abandonded beach, would you not think it was designed and created by someone?
It works fine for non living entities, which essentially go from order to disorder (in general); i.e entrophy. It works less well for organic systems that have the ability to adapt to their surroundings and actively fight off entrophy (and earth isn't a closed system, so this does not violate the second law of thermodynamics).
To each his oown, to be sure. But with faith, you cannot validate your beliefs, whatever they are. With science, if you have the time and dedication, you can get very proficient and knowledgeable, and even conduct experiments of your own to support your justifiable belief.
There's the difference, I think.
I won't trash talk any point of view too severly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), but I feel I must intervene when someone states that science is merely faith. It isn't, and if it was, we sure wouldn't be playing Aces High on silicon thingies with gates on them that take a voltage between 0 and 5, decide whether it should be represented as a 0 or a 1, put them all together in some weird odd way most of us have no clue of works, and graphically present through a cathode ray tube.
Now THAT seems like FM (F*cking Magic) to me, but it ain't (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"
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"The scientists don't know so god must have done it"
I for one refuse to put my ignorance on an alter and worship it, Scientists don't know NOW, but they will. I can see a time when the creation of life from inorganic matter becomes commonplace. (If you think people get their knickers in a twist about abortion and cloning, you ain't seen nuthin yet:-)