Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 2Hawks on July 28, 2005, 10:46:51 PM
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The P47N models were fitted with an enlarged, blunt tipped wing. This gave a total of 322 sq ft of wing. This was 22 sq ft larger than the standard P47 wings. The blunt wing tips gave the P47N models a roll rate of approximately 98 degrees per second; compare that to 79 degrees per second for standard wing P47s. The N wing also had a 18" wing extension and a 93 gallon fuel tank. Maximum take-off weight was 20,166 pounds! The first combat unit to receive the N model was.... the 56th Fighter Group. The war ended before the new Thundebolts could be assembled, and never saw combat in Europe. The N had a cruise range of well over two thousand miles. This would have put the Wolfpack all the way into Austria from Boxted... Anyway, the 56thFG did end up flying the "N"... at their new home at Selfridge AFB in Michigan, after WWII
Reference:
http://www.majorleesaerodrome.net/index.html
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56th FG were stationed on the other side of the world at that time (England)
Ummmm...
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_13.html
The XP-47N flew for the first time on July 22, 1944. Such was the USAAF confidence in the Thunderbolt design that they went ahead and ordered 1900 P-47Ns in June 20, 1944, even before the first XP-47N had flown.
The P-47N was destined to be the last version of the Thunderbolt to be manufactured. The first P-47N-1-RE appeared in September of 1944, and 24 were delivered by year's end. The P-47N-5-RE and subsequent batches had zero-length rocket launchers added. The R-2800-77 engine was installed in late production models such as the P-47N-25-RE.
The P-47N gave excellent service in the Pacific in the last year of the War, particularly in escorting B-29 Superfortress bombers in raids on the Japanese mainland. P-47Ns were able to escort the bombers all the way from Saipan to Japan and on many other long, overwater flights.
A total of 1667 P-47Ns was produced by the Farmingdale plant between December 1944 and December 1945, when the Thunderbolt line finally closed down. 149 more P-47Ns were built by the Evansville factory. V-J Day cancellation of 5934 Thunderbolts brought production of the type abruptly to an end.
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ahahah, BURN
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It saw 'service' but it was an insignificant aircraft in WW2 and it was a completely pointless addition to AH given the current wholes in the plane set. AH could have used another Jug, just not an N.
It being free in the main only ensures its impact in AH will far out way any contribution it made in real life...
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P-47M was NOT designed to chase down V-1's, contrary to rumor. First fighter group, IIRC, to receive the M's was the 56th Fighter Group.
P-47N saw plenty of action in the Pacific.
Want a good read on the P-47 series? Check here:
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Seversky-Republic.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic2.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic3.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic4.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic5.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic6.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic7.html
http://home.att.net/~Historyzone/Seversky-Republic8.html
Read especially Chapters 7 and 8.....Chapter 7 tells more about the M and N models.
Not arguing with ya, Wotan, maybe it was "insignificant", but no more so than the Ta-152 series, which we received what, two years ago? Maybe 10% as many 152's produced as even the N models?
And before ya say it, I agree with the others....the 152 does not need to be perked. The style of fighting that occurs in the MA is outside the envelope where the Ta152 or the P-47N would dominate. Neither warrant a perk tag or price.
There are a lot of holes to be filled if TOD is to be accurate.....but not all the holes are in the German planeset, or the American. The Brits have humongous holes that need to be filled to cover all the time periods, IMHO, as do the Italians and the Soviet planesets. Those two need attention before either the LW or USAAF need another plane, but that is just my take on all of it.
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No P-47Ns saw combat in the ETO. Many saw combat in the PTO. The 56th received the P-47M....
Find a better source. MajorLee made some major blunders.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Wotan
It being free in the main only ensures its impact in AH will far out way any contribution it made in real life...
but its american
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made an interesting point, which was compunded by what eddiek said about holes in the planeset.
Without the 152 or the 47N, what else is in the arena that could catch a B29?
Could it be that the 29 is being modeled and the 47N is an introduction towards that era? If thats the case I want a P-61 Black Widow!
Dan.
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If my mind serves me right the P-47N was used extensively in the Pacific, the M was used in a limited basis in Europe.
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Not arguing with ya, Wotan, maybe it was "insignificant", but no more so than the Ta-152 series, which we received what, two years ago? Maybe 10% as many 152's produced as even the N models?
And before ya say it, I agree with the others....the 152 does not need to be perked. The style of fighting that occurs in the MA is outside the envelope where the Ta152 or the P-47N would dominate. Neither warrant a perk tag or price.
Who cares about the 152? Its perked and even if it ever gets 'unperked' (not that I care if it gets unperked, I mean after all if they unperk a plane as rare as the 152 then whats the perk system for in the first place?). I don't see it getting that much usage over time. Its as insignificant in the main as it was in rl...
It could be stripped from the plane set tomorrow and all but a handful would actually care... I wouldn't blink twice over it...
At this point it doesn't really matter about the holes in the RAF / VVS / JPN / I-tie plane set as those holes are so great they are out of reach in the near term.
AH could have used a new P-47 just not an insignificant late model like the N that for the most part can't even be used in ToD. Even once the plane set is full enough for a late war PAC its better speed and range over the other P-47s won't really mean that much. All late war US planes are much faster the JPN planes. I doubt the missions in ToD will require a plane with the range of the P-47N as well (no one lies to be bored).
Its just another late war Ami kEwL-bOi plane. I have nothing against the P-47, its great plane and I am sure a lot folks will have a great time playing with it. That doesn't change its insignificance.
With the P-38G and a P-47C or earlier D thats all that was needed for early mid '43 Ami/LW WETO. The LW planes are already there. After all WETO is the only theater that can be pulled off in ToD. Unless ToD is even further out then I think the holes in the plane set are so large that ToD will be very limited it what it can pull off.
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Originally posted by 2Hawks
Without the 152 or the 47N, what else is in the arena that could catch a B29?
Me163
Me262
Bf109G-10
Bf109G-6
Bf109G-2
Bf109F-4
Fw190D-9
Fw190A-8
Fw190F-8
Fw190A-5
F4U-1
F4U-1D
F4U-1C
F4U-4
F6F-5
P-51D
P-51B
P-47D-40
P-47D-25
P-47D-11
P-38L
P-38J
P-38G
Tempest Mk V
Typhoon Mk Ib
Spitfire Mk XIV
Spitfire Mk IX
Ki-84-Ia
La-7
La-5FN
Yak-9U
Some of those would have trouble, some would do it just fine, but all of them could catch the B-29.
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here is no reason to complain about p47N
its done, canot be undone
move along, nothing to see here
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why anybody complains about additions to the planeset. Every time HTC adds one, somebody gets all pissy. Whatever for? Expand your horizons, Wotan! Try something that doesn't have a swastika on the tail! See what the other side has to offer!
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Stating that 'the P-47N' was an insignificant aircraft in WW2' isn't 'complaining about a new aircraft'.
Nor is saying that the P-47N was 'pointless addition to AH in regards to ToD'.
Those are called facts and if you want to dispute them then we can have that conversation.
As I said AH could have used a new P-47, I suggested a C or early D long before there was talk of a new Jug. Same with the P-38s. I made many a suggestion for new non-German planes as a priority over the years and especially since ToD was announced. Planes I will never ever chose to sit in even offline.
I have zero interest in 'Ami hero planes'. The arenas are full of them. That said I have plenty of game time in non-German aircraft. Not only in AH but in many other games as well.
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Originally posted by Wotan
As I said AH could have used a new P-47, I suggested a C or early D long before there was talk of a new Jug. Same with the P-38s.
Ok, can anyone point to a significant performance difference between the P-47C-5 and a P-47D-11?
I'll save you the trouble of trying to find out... There isn't any concrete difference.
Virtually every C-2 and C-5 was upgraded to include additional cowl flaps, water injection and the "bulged keel" plumbed for a single belly tank, bringing them up the revision level of D-10s and D-11s just arriving in theater.
It's easy enough to skin the D-11 as a C model. Can anyone tell a C-5 from a D-5, from a D-11 without a serial number... Only an expert could, and he would be hard pressed to make that determination.
We don't need an older Jug, the D-11 is little changed from an upgraded C-5. If anything, we could have used a D-22 or D-23 to fill the gap between mid '43 thru spring of '44. These were fitted with under-wing pylons for drop tanks or ordnance, the D-11 is not. They also were built with the C-W (-23) or HS (-22) paddle blade props. Either of these will actually have a use in TOD.
Again, just re-skin the D-11 as a P-47C-5 and you'll be 99.99% accurate.
Also, the Bf 109s and Spitfires are next for updating. I'm confident that at least one new version of each will appear with the next major update. I'll wager we see the 109G-14 and the Spit LF Mk.IX added.
My regards,
Widewing
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Really?
See Here (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140627)
I am in complete agreement with your lineup. For Early P-47s a P-47C-5 and P-47D-5 would fill out the set. I'd also like to see the D-11 updated to the high-activity prop as almost all were upgraded to this within a month of reaching Britain.
Chronology of the P-47s in terms of deliveries:
C-5 Late 1942-early 1943
D-5 Spring 1943- summer 1943
D-11 Fall 1943- early winter 1943
By December of 1943 most ETO P-47 Groups flew a mixture of D-5s and D-11s. Most, if not all P-47C-5s had been sent down to training units or were classified as War Weary (WW) by then.
As to that fellow who mentioned the serial numbers beginning with 42; serial numbers reflect those assigned when the contract was signed, and do not reflect actual delivery or in-service dates. There were P-51Bs and Cs with 42 serial numbers, but the first P-51B did not arrive in Britain until September of 1943.
For the IJAAF, the Ki-43-II, Ki-44-II and the Ki-61-1-Otsu would be very helpful.
In addition to the A6M3, I'd like to see the J2M3 added.
I also agree that the Soviet lineup needs a lot of attention.
My regards,
Widewing
C-5 was upgraded to include additional cowl flaps, water injection and the "bulged keel" plumbed for a single belly tank, bringing them up the revision level of D-10s and D-11s just arriving in theater.
Of course it wouldn't make sense if they 'were upgraded'. But that would preclude them from being utilized in the earliest time frame.
Just like you said in the previous post above... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Wotan
Really?
Of course it wouldn't make sense if they 'were upgraded'. But that would preclude them from being utilized in the earliest time frame.
Just like you said in the previous post above... :rolleyes:
Today I looked at the field upgrade dates for the 8th AF. By April of 1943 C models were being upgraded at refit depots with retro kits as I descibed earlier today. Indeed, the majority of early D models were not issued to squadrons until they received the upgrades.
For example, the 56th didn't start flying combat ops until April of '43, and those were nothing more than familiarization sweeps ignored by the Luftwaffe. Real escort missions were limited by the early fighter's short range. They didn't venture beyond Antwerp until after there was a sufficient supply of upgraded aircraft. As it was, some of the P-47s going to Antwerp ran out of fuel.
To simulate early C models, just disable the belly tank option in the hanger!
By August 5th of 1943, only 7 of the 56th's P-47Cs had not been upgraded and were sent down as War Wearies, being replaced by D models. By September, all were upgraded. Similar dates apply to the 78th and 4th FGs. After May of 1943, P-47Cs not yet upgraded seldom flew escort missions. More than a few pilots were unhappy to remain behind because their Jug hadn't yet been sent one of the refit depots.
My earlier post was based upon delivery dates. Actual ETO combat introduction was later and most P-47C aircraft were soon upgraded to equal the the P-47D-10 and D-11, as were earlier D models.
So, with this knowledge in hand I had to re-evaluate my position and conclude that we don't need a C model or an earlier D model either. A later razorback model would have been useful.
My regards,
Widewing
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The "P-47M" was a more conservative attempt to come up with a "hot rod" version of the Thunderbolt. Three P-47Ds were modified into prototype YP-47Ms by fitting the P&W R-2800-57(C) engine and the GE CH-5 turbosupercharger.
The performance of the YP-47M was excellent, with a top speed of 761 KPH (473 MPH), and the variant was rushed into production to counter the threat of the new German V-1 cruise missiles and German jet fighters. 130 P-47Ms were built, with the first arriving in Europe in early 1945. However, the type suffered persistent teething problems in the field and did not see much action until the war was all but over.
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The M would be on paper the fastest single engined prop job to see action in ww2. TA 152 officially 472, P-47 M 473 mph. However it's reported that 152 could do better than that. Do 335 faster perhaps, but 2 motors.
Too bad P-51 H never saw action. Or Longnose V-18 for that matter. Or the MB 5 too.
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P47 N - not pointless to TOD in the fact that there will be a pacific theatre in TOD as well after the initial ETO. Least I'm pretty sue there will be one...lol
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Today I looked at the field upgrade dates for the 8th AF. By April of 1943 C models were being upgraded at refit depots with retro kits as I descibed earlier today. Indeed, the majority of early D models were not issued to squadrons until they received the upgrades.
The 4th FG claimed their first LW kill on 15 April '43. (Don Blakeslee, a Focke Wulf of JG 1 - * see below the first P-47 victory in ETO)
The 4th's first combat mission was on 10, **March[/i] '43. IIRC this mission was a real mess and combat missions were postponed until 8 April '43
Their first 'escort mission' was on 17 Aug '43 (first leg on the Schweinfurt raid).
As I said in the other thread the issue isn't performance, its range...
No I want the limited range.
P-47C-5 or D-4 (D-4 had water so its not just a water issue). The D-11 is '44 aircraft. By adding an A-3 (an A-4 would be almost the same as the A-3, we could do with an A-2 but then we end up with more mismatched variants; ie Spit V with 16lbs boost etc...) and a earlier ('43) Jug the time frame for a Western European Theater gets extended. As such you get more balanced theater overall. Initially difficult for the Allies ending up extremely difficult for the LW.
If you just run 30 days of P51s late 38s and late Jugs then it may not be sustainable. AH has the P-38s as well now.
A 'happy time' for both sides basically.
To simulate early C models, just disable the belly tank option in the hanger!
No such option in AH exists.
My earlier post was based upon delivery dates. Actual ETO combat introduction was later and most P-47C aircraft were soon upgraded to equal the the P-47D-10 and D-11, as were earlier D models.
So, with this knowledge in hand I had to re-evaluate my position and conclude that we don't need a C model or an earlier D model either. A later razorback model would have been useful.
With the addition of a D-5 and the Hamilton PB prop added to the D-11 the P-47 holes would have been filled.
If you want to argue that a D-23 or whatever (one could argue for a D-15 as well) it doesn't really change anything in relation the the P-47N's introduction into AH.
*Here
According to the 4th Fighter Group history Escort to Berlin, there were two separate encounters with German fighters, about 50 minutes apart, involving two different squadrons. Officially the show was called Rodeo 204 -- a fighter sweep to Furnes, Belgium, to Cassel, France.
Times given are conflicting, probably because the group was split up. Both 56th and 78th Group aircraft participated to gain experience. At 1701 hours, Blakeslee was leading the 335th FS when he spotted three FW-190s over Knocke, at 23,000 ft., and bounced one from 6,000 ft. above. The summary says the German pilot dived away and the tail chase levelled off at 500 ft. before the Focke-Wulf crashed into the sea near Ostend.
Meanwhile the 334th FS was crossing the North Sea, and they engaged FW-190s at about 1750 hours. Two pilots were shot down and killed: Capt. Stanley Anderson (P-47C 41-6407)[and Capt. Richard McMinn (P-47C 41-6204). Both crashed into the water several miles off the coast of Belgium, between Ostend and Blankenberghe.
Lt. Col. Chesley Peterson was the overall mission commander Peterson's plane (P-47C 41-6414) was the first loss of the day, and not involved in combats. He aborted early because of engine trouble shortly after take-off, and bailed out into the sea 30 miles off the English coast. Rescued by a Walrus 45 minutes later
Interestingly no JG 1 190s were lost that day. 15 FW 190A-4s II./JG 1 were engaged in combat with P-47s. 14 returned unharmed and 3 kill claims, 1 190 was forced to land due to engine troubles. One pilot (5./JG 1 Ofw. Ernst Heesen) claimed 2 p-47s. (other sources state 2 P-47s were lost due to engine troubles).
3 P47 losses
1 claimed unknown 190 by Blakeslee...
Those C's saw more combat in WETO then the N did :p...
Waffle BAS,
Even once the plane set is full enough for a late war PAC its better speed and range over the other P-47s won't really mean that much. All late war US planes are much faster the JPN planes. I doubt the missions in ToD will require a plane with the range of the P-47N as well (no one lies to be bored).
** Edited to correct date mistake...
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Kurt Buhligen said whenever a 47 would get on my tail, I would go straight up, do a loop, & end up on the 47's tail every time. I shot down several this way.
Further he said. The problem with the 47 was that it weighed too much, & there were certain maneuvers it just couldn't do.
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Originally posted by Wotan
The 4th's first combat mission was on 10, April '43. IIRC this mission was a real mess and combat missions were postponed until 8 April '43
there is something wrong in this sentence or I've translation trouble ?
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Yup should be March 10.. typo
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I was not sure as the english speakers allways put the words in a pretty unnatural order in their sentences :p
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Originally posted by Wotan
No such option in AH exists.
Not for AH2, but ToD is another story. There's no reason why HTC cannot configure the scenarios by limiting access to optional hardware. We've seen unintentional bugs that did exactly that. ;)
If the planes spawn in flight, it is probable that ToD will configure the fuel state at the time of spawn. Moreover, since these are pre-planned missions, I doubt that the user will have any control over aircraft configuration as that will likely be a function of the mission profile. You sign up and fly the duty aircraft exactly as it's configured. It makes no sense to structure a mission that can be unstructured by the individual pilots changing fuel states and load-out. Really, I doubt that ToD will have anything like the hanger we now have on the clipboard.
My regards,
Widewing